Re: NNTP client configuration
On 2/24/2018 1:58 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: LOL. The cost of going to dconf when it's in Germany and you live in the US isn't exactly small, and for some folks, it's not easy to get away even if they can afford the cost. Of course, when it's in the US, then the folks in Europe would have the same problem, so someone is always going to lose out in that regard. Every year that it's been in Germany, I've at least briefly considered not going due to the cost, but I hate the idea of missing dconf, so I've made it work one way or another. And we're glad to see you every year!
Re: NNTP client configuration
On Saturday, February 24, 2018 01:45:28 Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On 2/23/2018 5:20 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: > > Hoping to go to Germany, but not sure if it's going to happen again :) > > How can anyone pass up Bavaria?! LOL. The cost of going to dconf when it's in Germany and you live in the US isn't exactly small, and for some folks, it's not easy to get away even if they can afford the cost. Of course, when it's in the US, then the folks in Europe would have the same problem, so someone is always going to lose out in that regard. Every year that it's been in Germany, I've at least briefly considered not going due to the cost, but I hate the idea of missing dconf, so I've made it work one way or another. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: NNTP client configuration
On 2/23/2018 5:20 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Hoping to go to Germany, but not sure if it's going to happen again :) How can anyone pass up Bavaria?!
Re: NNTP client configuration
On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 17:09:22 Brad Roberts via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On 2/20/2018 4:53 PM, Seb via Digitalmars-d wrote: > > On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 at 00:32:54 UTC, Manu wrote: > >> On 20 February 2018 at 02:05, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d > >> > >> wrote: > >>> Now, the double-posting with both text and html is another matter > >>> entirely > >> > >> but if the NG really doesn't > >> want the html version of the email, it would be easy for the mailing > >> list to mechanically truncate the html, > > > > Yes, but only one guy (Brad) is admin here. > > There's really no point is discussing this for hours here. > > Simply write Brad. You can reach him either via GitHub Issues: > > > > https://github.com/braddr/d-tester/issues > > > > Or for his email, simply look at the git log (he made the first git > > commit) > Do not use the d-tester issues for non tester related issues, please. > > Jonathan alerted me to the issue a couple days ago and I've been looking > into this today. It's due to a behavior change between versions of > mailman used on the old (being a relative term.. been a few months now) > mail server and the current mail server. I don't see the solution yet, > but I'm working to figure out how to restore the previous behavior. Well, it looks like you fixed it, since all of the recent posts seem to only have the mailing list address in the Reply-To header. Thanks! - Jonathan M Davis
Re: NNTP client configuration
On 2/23/18 12:18 AM, Seb wrote: On Friday, 23 February 2018 at 05:09:23 UTC, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote: On 02/21/2018 01:21 AM, Manu wrote: Incidentally... I was kinda hoping it'd be back in the states this year, since I'm actually in the states now... but I'm still holding out to see if I can get to Germany. I've had fingers crossed for another San Fransico DConf, too. I'm at the other end of the country, but I have some relatives in that city I could stay with. It'd provide a perfect excuse, too! Hehe I think you need to help your fortune here a bit. Why don't you organize a mini DConf US? I'd be down for a mini DConf US. Hoping to go to Germany, but not sure if it's going to happen again :) -Steve
Re: NNTP client configuration
On Friday, 23 February 2018 at 05:09:23 UTC, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote: On 02/21/2018 01:21 AM, Manu wrote: Incidentally... I was kinda hoping it'd be back in the states this year, since I'm actually in the states now... but I'm still holding out to see if I can get to Germany. I've had fingers crossed for another San Fransico DConf, too. I'm at the other end of the country, but I have some relatives in that city I could stay with. It'd provide a perfect excuse, too! Hehe I think you need to help your fortune here a bit. Why don't you organize a mini DConf US?
Re: NNTP client configuration
On 02/21/2018 01:21 AM, Manu wrote: Incidentally... I was kinda hoping it'd be back in the states this year, since I'm actually in the states now... but I'm still holding out to see if I can get to Germany. I've had fingers crossed for another San Fransico DConf, too. I'm at the other end of the country, but I have some relatives in that city I could stay with. It'd provide a perfect excuse, too!
Re: NNTP client configuration
On 2/20/2018 10:21 PM, Manu wrote: Haha, I was starting to feel like I wasn't welcome :P No chance of that happening! Incidentally... I was kinda hoping it'd be back in the states this year, since I'm actually in the states now... but I'm still holding out to see if I can get to Germany. I have no holiday leave yet >_< .. and I'm still getting a feel for my workload/schedule. Here's to hoping you find a way to come!
Re: NNTP client configuration
On 20 February 2018 at 19:32, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On 2/20/2018 6:00 PM, Manu wrote: >> >> I'm a bit tired of being a bad guy for unknowingly committing a crime >> by using my email client in the default and completely normal way ;) > > > We'll forgive you if you show up at DConf so I can buy you a good Bavarian > beer! Haha, I was starting to feel like I wasn't welcome :P Incidentally... I was kinda hoping it'd be back in the states this year, since I'm actually in the states now... but I'm still holding out to see if I can get to Germany. I have no holiday leave yet >_< .. and I'm still getting a feel for my workload/schedule.
Re: NNTP client configuration
On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 19:51:54 Brad Roberts via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On 2/20/2018 7:43 PM, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d wrote: > > On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 19:20:27 Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d > > > > wrote: > >> On 2/20/2018 4:26 PM, Manu wrote: > >>> I shouldn't have your email > >>> address in the reply-to header (as Jonathan has noted multiple times). > >> > >> I do that deliberately as a service to those who wish to contact me > >> privately about something I posted, which happens now and then. > > > > I think that it's also pretty common for the e-mail address of posters > > to > > end up being visible somewhere for mailing lists - enough so that using > > an e-mail address that you don't want to be public is risky. > > > > Either way, having the poster's e-mail address in the Reply-To header is > > a problem, because that's going to tell the e-mail client to send a > > reply there. So, if the poster's e-mail address is going to be > > somewhere in the headers, it needs to be in a different header (e.g. > > the From header). > > > > Looking back at e-mails from the mailing list from the last few years, > > it > > looks like it used to be the case that the From header listed the user's > > name but with the mailing list's address (just like it does now), and > > the > > Reply-To header just listed the mailing list's address (whereas now, it > > lists the mailing list's e-mail address _and_ the poster's e-mail > > address). So, prior to the last update that Brad did, I don't think > > that the poster's e-mail address was available anywhere in messages > > from the mailing list. > > > > However, if I look at messages from several years ago, it used to be > > that > > the From field listed the poster's name and e-mail address (not the > > mailing lists's), and the Reply-To header listed the mailing list's > > address. > > > > So, if we want to try to hide the poster's e-mail address, the behavior > > that mailman had a few months ago would be best, whereas if we want > > that information to be available, then it's behavior from several years > > ago would be best. Either way, having Reply-To include the poster's > > e-mail address is going to result in a lot of unnecessary e-mails going > > directly to folks in addition to the mailing list. > > We cannot go back to several years ago unless you can convince the world > to also roll back dmarc. That travesty of justice really screwed up > mailing lists in general. It was designed and implemented fairly > ignorant of the ways in which lists work. So that's off the table. > > For the moment, we're back to the posters email is nowhere to be found, > which is bad for some use cases. There really is no one correct answer > here. Reasonable people are going to disagree. All I'm asking for is that the Reply-To header just include the mailing list e-mail address, because having it include the poster's e-mail address results in folks e-mailing posters directly by accident (I've had to get in the habit of constantly removing it when replying to the mailing list). I have no clue how configurable mailman is for any of this. I've never used mailing man, just mailing lists that use it. In some respects the behavior from several years ago was better, and in some respects the behavior from several months ago was better, and if it's trivial for you to pick one or the other then it's debatable as to which we should go with, and a decision could be made, but if it's not trivial, then I see no reason to worry particularly about whether the poster's e-mail address is in the From header or not. It's not worth you spending a ton of time trying to figure it out. However, the Reply-To header is actively causing problems as things stand, so if possible, it should be fixed. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: NNTP client configuration
On 2/20/2018 7:43 PM, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d wrote: On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 19:20:27 Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d wrote: On 2/20/2018 4:26 PM, Manu wrote: I shouldn't have your email address in the reply-to header (as Jonathan has noted multiple times). I do that deliberately as a service to those who wish to contact me privately about something I posted, which happens now and then. I think that it's also pretty common for the e-mail address of posters to end up being visible somewhere for mailing lists - enough so that using an e-mail address that you don't want to be public is risky. Either way, having the poster's e-mail address in the Reply-To header is a problem, because that's going to tell the e-mail client to send a reply there. So, if the poster's e-mail address is going to be somewhere in the headers, it needs to be in a different header (e.g. the From header). Looking back at e-mails from the mailing list from the last few years, it looks like it used to be the case that the From header listed the user's name but with the mailing list's address (just like it does now), and the Reply-To header just listed the mailing list's address (whereas now, it lists the mailing list's e-mail address _and_ the poster's e-mail address). So, prior to the last update that Brad did, I don't think that the poster's e-mail address was available anywhere in messages from the mailing list. However, if I look at messages from several years ago, it used to be that the From field listed the poster's name and e-mail address (not the mailing lists's), and the Reply-To header listed the mailing list's address. So, if we want to try to hide the poster's e-mail address, the behavior that mailman had a few months ago would be best, whereas if we want that information to be available, then it's behavior from several years ago would be best. Either way, having Reply-To include the poster's e-mail address is going to result in a lot of unnecessary e-mails going directly to folks in addition to the mailing list. - Jonathan M Davis We cannot go back to several years ago unless you can convince the world to also roll back dmarc. That travesty of justice really screwed up mailing lists in general. It was designed and implemented fairly ignorant of the ways in which lists work. So that's off the table. For the moment, we're back to the posters email is nowhere to be found, which is bad for some use cases. There really is no one correct answer here. Reasonable people are going to disagree.
Re: NNTP client configuration
On 2/20/2018 6:00 PM, Manu wrote: Hey Brad; is it possible to strip out the HTML copy from emails before distribution? I'm a bit tired of being a bad guy for unknowingly committing a crime by using my email client in the default and completely normal way ;) Yes, mailman can filter messages and message parts, but I've never used them and those features aren't enabled on any list I run. I'm hesitant to start playing those sorts of games on lists with as many subscribers (on either side of the nntp/smtp divide) and as much traffic as the d lists get.
Re: NNTP client configuration
On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 19:20:27 Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On 2/20/2018 4:26 PM, Manu wrote: > > I shouldn't have your email > > address in the reply-to header (as Jonathan has noted multiple times). > > I do that deliberately as a service to those who wish to contact me > privately about something I posted, which happens now and then. I think that it's also pretty common for the e-mail address of posters to end up being visible somewhere for mailing lists - enough so that using an e-mail address that you don't want to be public is risky. Either way, having the poster's e-mail address in the Reply-To header is a problem, because that's going to tell the e-mail client to send a reply there. So, if the poster's e-mail address is going to be somewhere in the headers, it needs to be in a different header (e.g. the From header). Looking back at e-mails from the mailing list from the last few years, it looks like it used to be the case that the From header listed the user's name but with the mailing list's address (just like it does now), and the Reply-To header just listed the mailing list's address (whereas now, it lists the mailing list's e-mail address _and_ the poster's e-mail address). So, prior to the last update that Brad did, I don't think that the poster's e-mail address was available anywhere in messages from the mailing list. However, if I look at messages from several years ago, it used to be that the From field listed the poster's name and e-mail address (not the mailing lists's), and the Reply-To header listed the mailing list's address. So, if we want to try to hide the poster's e-mail address, the behavior that mailman had a few months ago would be best, whereas if we want that information to be available, then it's behavior from several years ago would be best. Either way, having Reply-To include the poster's e-mail address is going to result in a lot of unnecessary e-mails going directly to folks in addition to the mailing list. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: NNTP client configuration
On 2/20/2018 5:09 PM, Brad Roberts wrote: Jonathan alerted me to the issue a couple days ago and I've been looking into this today. It's due to a behavior change between versions of mailman used on the old (being a relative term.. been a few months now) mail server and the current mail server. I don't see the solution yet, but I'm working to figure out how to restore the previous behavior. Good news! Thanks, Brad!
Re: NNTP client configuration
On 2/20/2018 4:32 PM, Manu wrote: It's configurable... what seems to happen though, is that occasionally my setting resets. Perhaps google updates gmail and it resets some settings like that? I dunno. I don't notice when the setting resets, but Walter does. I notice because the Thunderbird newsreader lists the line count of each post, and it's pretty obvious when the line count is far higher than the number of displayed lines. I agree, I can technically control this, but if the NG really doesn't want the html version of the email, it would be easy for the mailing list to mechanically truncate the html, since that's the default setting for virtually all email clients anyway. Every mailing list user must surely commit this sin? Generally I think it is a bad idea to edit the news files to be something different from what the user sent. It suggests we are editing the content as well, and I don't want to get into that mess. The only thing I will do is delete posts. Yours and everyone elses' posts are exactly as received.
Re: NNTP client configuration
On 2/20/2018 6:00 PM, Manu wrote: I'm a bit tired of being a bad guy for unknowingly committing a crime by using my email client in the default and completely normal way ;) We'll forgive you if you show up at DConf so I can buy you a good Bavarian beer!
Re: NNTP client configuration
On 2/20/2018 4:26 PM, Manu wrote: I shouldn't have your email address in the reply-to header (as Jonathan has noted multiple times). I do that deliberately as a service to those who wish to contact me privately about something I posted, which happens now and then. I subscribe to the mailing list. Thanks for clearing that up. I apologize for inferring you were using gmail as your NTTP client.
Re: NNTP client configuration
On 20 February 2018 at 17:09, Brad Roberts via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On 2/20/2018 4:53 PM, Seb via Digitalmars-d wrote: >> >> On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 at 00:32:54 UTC, Manu wrote: >>> >>> On 20 February 2018 at 02:05, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d >>> wrote: Now, the double-posting with both text and html is another matter entirely >>> >>> but if the NG really doesn't >>> want the html version of the email, it would be easy for the mailing list >>> to mechanically truncate the html, >> >> >> Yes, but only one guy (Brad) is admin here. >> There's really no point is discussing this for hours here. >> Simply write Brad. You can reach him either via GitHub Issues: >> >> https://github.com/braddr/d-tester/issues >> >> Or for his email, simply look at the git log (he made the first git >> commit) > > > Do not use the d-tester issues for non tester related issues, please. > > Jonathan alerted me to the issue a couple days ago and I've been looking > into this today. It's due to a behavior change between versions of mailman > used on the old (being a relative term.. been a few months now) mail server > and the current mail server. I don't see the solution yet, but I'm working > to figure out how to restore the previous behavior. Hey Brad; is it possible to strip out the HTML copy from emails before distribution? I'm a bit tired of being a bad guy for unknowingly committing a crime by using my email client in the default and completely normal way ;)
Re: NNTP client configuration
On 2/20/2018 4:53 PM, Seb via Digitalmars-d wrote: On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 at 00:32:54 UTC, Manu wrote: On 20 February 2018 at 02:05, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d wrote: Now, the double-posting with both text and html is another matter entirely but if the NG really doesn't want the html version of the email, it would be easy for the mailing list to mechanically truncate the html, Yes, but only one guy (Brad) is admin here. There's really no point is discussing this for hours here. Simply write Brad. You can reach him either via GitHub Issues: https://github.com/braddr/d-tester/issues Or for his email, simply look at the git log (he made the first git commit) Do not use the d-tester issues for non tester related issues, please. Jonathan alerted me to the issue a couple days ago and I've been looking into this today. It's due to a behavior change between versions of mailman used on the old (being a relative term.. been a few months now) mail server and the current mail server. I don't see the solution yet, but I'm working to figure out how to restore the previous behavior.
Re: NNTP client configuration
On Wednesday, 21 February 2018 at 00:32:54 UTC, Manu wrote: On 20 February 2018 at 02:05, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d wrote: Now, the double-posting with both text and html is another matter entirely but if the NG really doesn't want the html version of the email, it would be easy for the mailing list to mechanically truncate the html, Yes, but only one guy (Brad) is admin here. There's really no point is discussing this for hours here. Simply write Brad. You can reach him either via GitHub Issues: https://github.com/braddr/d-tester/issues Or for his email, simply look at the git log (he made the first git commit)
Re: NNTP client configuration
On 20 February 2018 at 02:05, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d wrote: > > Now, the double-posting with both text and html is another matter entirely > and certainly something that's the fault of the e-mail client. I don't know > how configurable that is with gmail though. Webmail tends to want to assume > that you're going to do everything with html and isn't always very > configurable (which is one reason why I use a local e-mail client and not > webmail). It's configurable... what seems to happen though, is that occasionally my setting resets. Perhaps google updates gmail and it resets some settings like that? I dunno. I don't notice when the setting resets, but Walter does. I agree, I can technically control this, but if the NG really doesn't want the html version of the email, it would be easy for the mailing list to mechanically truncate the html, since that's the default setting for virtually all email clients anyway. Every mailing list user must surely commit this sin?
Re: NNTP client configuration
On 20 February 2018 at 01:23, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d wrote: > > It's annoying because I do not know if he intended to send me private email > or intended it to be public on the forum. It doesn't sound like he intended > to send these private emails, making it a problem with his client. I cannot > fix his client. He has to, or use another client. My client has nothing to do with this. I shouldn't have your email address in the reply-to header (as Jonathan has noted multiple times). If I switched to outlook, I'd still have your email address in the reply field. You should be angry that the mailing list is emitting your private email address to every subscriber. >> Is he even using NNTP? Or maybe the mailing list Interface? > > He's using gmail's NNTP client. No, I'm using gmail's SMTP interface. I subscribe to the mailing list.
Re: NNTP client configuration
On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 03:08:37PM -0800, Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On 2/20/2018 2:05 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: > > Does gmail even have an NNTP client? > > He wrote: "Apparently gmail has a new trick... reply to thread == > reply-all." AFAIK, Google Groups has an NNTP interface to integrate with "legacy" NNTP servers (though "native" groups itself uses something else). No idea what that has to do with Gmail, but you never know. T -- Verbing weirds language. -- Calvin (& Hobbes)
Re: NNTP client configuration
On 2/20/2018 2:05 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote: Does gmail even have an NNTP client? He wrote: "Apparently gmail has a new trick... reply to thread == reply-all."
Re: NNTP client configuration
On Tuesday, February 20, 2018 01:23:32 Walter Bright via Digitalmars-d wrote: > On 2/19/2018 10:40 PM, Tobias Müller wrote: > > Is he even using NNTP? Or maybe the mailing list Interface? > > He's using gmail's NNTP client. It's simply not possible for us to control > it, any more than we can fix printer issues with Microsoft Word running > on your machine. And you wouldn't want us to if we could :-) > > Now, since we allow any NNTP client to post to our NNTP forums, it stands > to reason that it's polite to configure it properly. In this case, it > would be to not spam out unintended emails, and to post as plain text, > not double post everything as both text and html. While the double > posting will work, it makes the NNTP database twice as big and half as > fast, for no purpose whatsoever. These should be configurable with any > NNTP client that is not an incompetent steaming pile of rotting cabbage. Does gmail even have an NNTP client? I can't find anything about that when doing a search for it. I had assumed that Manu was using the mailing list, and as I explained, mailman is sending both the mailing list address and the poster's e-mail address in the Reply-To header, in which case, the problem is not that Manu has misconfigured his e-mail client but that mailman is misconfigured, since replying to the addresses in Reply-To is the correct thing for an e-mail client to do. You can blame Manu for not going to the extra effort of manually removing your personal e-mail address from the To header, but the client is doing what it's supposed to be doing given what mailman sent it. Now, the double-posting with both text and html is another matter entirely and certainly something that's the fault of the e-mail client. I don't know how configurable that is with gmail though. Webmail tends to want to assume that you're going to do everything with html and isn't always very configurable (which is one reason why I use a local e-mail client and not webmail). - Jonathan M Davis
