Re: Up to date documentation on D implementation.
On 07.04.2012 8:51, ReneSac wrote: On Friday, 6 April 2012 at 01:33:10 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: DMD runs just fine on 64-bit Windows. Then why 32 bit Windows (Win32) operating system, such as Windows XP is put as a requirement? This should be corrected: http://dlang.org/dmd-windows.html Anyway, in the mean time I have setup GDC using the latest binaries, and it is working well. The only thing I noticed is that a simple Hello World took several seconds to compile, and ended up with 1.25MB (release, non-debug build)! how about strip it? + MinGW debug info is notoriously bloated (if it was debug build). And I thought that D was fast to compile... But then I discovered that switching to std.c.stdio made the compilation almost instantaneous, and the executable size a slightly more reasonable 408KB. It works, but that isn't really an option, as D strings aren't readily compatible with C strings... I know that the lower limiter in binary size is higher, due to the statically compiled runtime, but this bloat in the std lib for a single function worries me a bit. Is DMD better in this measurement, or is it a limitation of the current D libraries? This may be kinda important latter, as in compression benchmarks, the decompressor size is added in the compressed size to prevent cheating. I don't want a multi-megabyte executable size. -- Dmitry Olshansky
Re: Up to date documentation on D implementation.
On Saturday, 7 April 2012 at 06:21:16 UTC, Dmitry Olshansky wrote: On 07.04.2012 8:51, ReneSac wrote: The only thing I noticed is that a simple Hello World took several seconds to compile, and ended up with 1.25MB (release, non-debug build)! how about strip it? + MinGW debug info is notoriously bloated (if it was debug build). I said it was a non-debug build. The debug build for the Hello World is 7.6MB.
Re: Up to date documentation on D implementation.
On Friday, 6 April 2012 at 01:33:10 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: DMD runs just fine on 64-bit Windows. Then why 32 bit Windows (Win32) operating system, such as Windows XP is put as a requirement? This should be corrected: http://dlang.org/dmd-windows.html Anyway, in the mean time I have setup GDC using the latest binaries, and it is working well. The only thing I noticed is that a simple Hello World took several seconds to compile, and ended up with 1.25MB (release, non-debug build)! And I thought that D was fast to compile... But then I discovered that switching to std.c.stdio made the compilation almost instantaneous, and the executable size a slightly more reasonable 408KB. It works, but that isn't really an option, as D strings aren't readily compatible with C strings... I know that the lower limiter in binary size is higher, due to the statically compiled runtime, but this bloat in the std lib for a single function worries me a bit. Is DMD better in this measurement, or is it a limitation of the current D libraries? This may be kinda important latter, as in compression benchmarks, the decompressor size is added in the compressed size to prevent cheating. I don't want a multi-megabyte executable size.
Re: Up to date documentation on D implementation.
ReneSac: My hand will be full with my own bugs, and I would like to suppose an correctly working language... If you use more than the basic C features, you will find DMD compiler bugs (and probably the same is true for any D compiler, because most bugs are in the front-end, that is shared). Lately I hit new bugs less often, but they happen still. Bye, bearophile
Re: Up to date documentation on D implementation.
Am 05.04.2012 17:56, schrieb bearophile: ReneSac: My hand will be full with my own bugs, and I would like to suppose an correctly working language... If you use more than the basic C features, you will find DMD compiler bugs (and probably the same is true for any D compiler, because most bugs are in the front-end, that is shared). Lately I hit new bugs less often, but they happen still. Bye, bearophile Well, that's true, sometimes you hit a compiler or phobos-bug, but it's not like: uhm, today I wanna code something, let's begin … 5 minutes later … uh tha fuq another compiler bug It has gotten pretty rare that you hit them and when you do, you normally realize it very soon that this is a bug from the compiler (e.g. cod2.c shows up in the error message). And if you hit one, ppl in the IRC or here will help you out, with a bugfix or a workaround!
Re: Up to date documentation on D implementation.
On Thursday, 5 April 2012 at 15:01:53 UTC, ReneSac wrote: Hi. I'm totally new to D, and would like to use it to prototype some compression software ideas. You'll be pretty safe using features you know for C, but you can venture out pretty far from it. While, the page isn't specific to the questions you have at hand, this does cover much of the current state. Remember, recently implemented features are more likely to have bugs. http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?LanguageDevel
Re: Up to date documentation on D implementation.
On Thursday, 5 April 2012 at 18:34:05 UTC, Jesse Phillips wrote: You'll be pretty safe using features you know for C, but you can venture out pretty far from it. While, the page isn't specific to the questions you have at hand, this does cover much of the current state. Remember, recently implemented features are more likely to have bugs. I will probably program close to C/Lua style (the languages I'm most proficient with), but pretty far is vague. And I haven't been following the time line of the feature additions, like old users do, and I'm not sure if I should read the entire changelog for some vague indication of the stability of a feature... http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?LanguageDevel Ok, that page gives some pointers. Seems like I shouldn't use std.stream. So, std.cstream or std.stdio are safe? Dynamic Arrays, Slicing, Unittest, conditional compilation and compile time function execution should be working well, right? What about std.paralelism and message passing, non-shared multithreading? And I still don't know how to generate windows executables.. If it is really impossible to compile D in Windows 64 bits, then what is the best compiler for Linux?
Re: Up to date documentation on D implementation.
Am 05.04.2012 23:10, schrieb ReneSac: Ok, that page gives some pointers. Seems like I shouldn't use std.stream. So, std.cstream or std.stdio are safe? I also heared that, but actually std.stream works pretty well, especially the EndianStream. So I can recommend you to use it.
Re: Up to date documentation on D implementation.
On Thursday, 5 April 2012 at 21:10:41 UTC, ReneSac wrote: I will probably program close to C/Lua style (the languages I'm most proficient with), but pretty far is vague. And I haven't been following the time line of the feature additions, like old users do, and I'm not sure if I should read the entire changelog for some vague indication of the stability of a feature... The page I liked does have compiler versions for some of the implemented features, as you appear to have noticed. http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?LanguageDevel Ok, that page gives some pointers. Seems like I shouldn't use std.stream. So, std.cstream or std.stdio are safe? Hmm, bring up a good point, I think someone is working on revamping stdio, though I would think it would mostly remain compatible. Who's doing that? Could you write the details here: http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?ReviewQueue Dynamic Arrays, Slicing, Unittest, conditional compilation and compile time function execution should be working well, right? Yep, there are some requested improvements but, things are stable. What about std.paralelism and message passing, non-shared multithreading? I'm not sure how much use they have been getting, so it is hard to say. I know there have been questions about how to use them, but they seem solid. If you get into using shared though, you'll probably walk into areas that will require casting to get things done. I don't know what if any changes are planned, but likely it needs a closer look. And I still don't know how to generate windows executables.. If it is really impossible to compile D in Windows 64 bits, then what is the best compiler for Linux? Sorry, forgot to cover that. I believe GDC will compile 64bit Windows applications, but otherwise you can still compile and run 32bit applications. Most people use DMD, but GDC, I hear, should be on par.
Re: Up to date documentation on D implementation.
On Thursday, 5 April 2012 at 22:07:05 UTC, Jesse Phillips wrote: On Thursday, 5 April 2012 at 21:10:41 UTC, ReneSac wrote: I will probably program close to C/Lua style (the languages I'm most proficient with), but pretty far is vague. And I haven't been following the time line of the feature additions, like old users do, and I'm not sure if I should read the entire changelog for some vague indication of the stability of a feature... The page I liked does have compiler versions for some of the implemented features, as you appear to have noticed. Ah, I saw The following list of major issues dates from July 2009. So I supposed it was old, but now I see that I understood wrong. http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?LanguageDevel Ok, that page gives some pointers. Seems like I shouldn't use std.stream. So, std.cstream or std.stdio are safe? Hmm, bring up a good point, I think someone is working on revamping stdio, though I would think it would mostly remain compatible. Who's doing that? Could you write the details here: So, what I should use? http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?ReviewQueue Dynamic Arrays, Slicing, Unittest, conditional compilation and compile time function execution should be working well, right? Yep, there are some requested improvements but, things are stable. Good! Thanks. What about std.paralelism and message passing, non-shared multithreading? I'm not sure how much use they have been getting, so it is hard to say. I know there have been questions about how to use them, but they seem solid. If you get into using shared though, you'll probably walk into areas that will require casting to get things done. I don't know what if any changes are planned, but likely it needs a closer look. I would try to avoid anything shared anyway. It is hard to program if a++ isn't deterministic... Sorry, forgot to cover that. I believe GDC will compile 64bit Windows applications, but otherwise you can still compile and run 32bit applications. Most people use DMD, but GDC, I hear, should be on par. I don't need a 64bit binary right now. Actually, I would even prefer a 32bit one for development because then I can't run too wild in memory usage. The problem is that DMD seems to require 32 bit windows, according to the page I linked... Is it not true? Anyway, GDC seems to have quite better performance/optimization, so I may end up using it... But I also heard bad things about it in old posts... so...
Re: Up to date documentation on D implementation.
On Fri, Apr 06, 2012 at 12:42:57AM +0200, ReneSac wrote: On Thursday, 5 April 2012 at 22:07:05 UTC, Jesse Phillips wrote: [...] Anyway, GDC seems to have quite better performance/optimization, so I may end up using it... But I also heard bad things about it in old posts... so... I use GDC for some of my D projects. I didn't find anything wrong with it. Plus, GCC's backend optimizer is a LOT better than dmd. Something to consider if you're writing performance-critical code. T -- Right now I'm having amnesia and deja vu at the same time. I think I've forgotten this before.
Re: Up to date documentation on D implementation.
On Friday, April 06, 2012 00:07:03 Jesse Phillips wrote: Hmm, bring up a good point, I think someone is working on revamping stdio, though I would think it would mostly remain compatible. Who's doing that? Could you write the details here: It's Steven Schveighoffer, but it's far from ready, since he hasn't had a lot of time to work on it of late. He put up an initial version for feedback a few weeks back, and one of the main points of feedback (which Walter felt very strongly about) was that it needed to be compatible with the current std.stdio rather than having a whole new API, so while it may do new stuff and have a better implementation, most (all?) of the stuff using the current std.stdio will continue to work with the new one whenever it's finished. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: Up to date documentation on D implementation.
On Thursday, April 05, 2012 23:47:52 David wrote: Am 05.04.2012 23:10, schrieb ReneSac: Ok, that page gives some pointers. Seems like I shouldn't use std.stream. So, std.cstream or std.stdio are safe? I also heared that, but actually std.stream works pretty well, especially the EndianStream. So I can recommend you to use it. Regardless of how well it works, it's going to be replaced with a range-based API. So, it's not going to be around in the long run. You can use it. You just have to be aware that it's going to go away. Unfortunately, its replacement is far from ready, so we really don't know when it's actually going to be replaced. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: Up to date documentation on D implementation.
On 4/6/2012 7:42 AM, ReneSac wrote: Most people use DMD, but GDC, I hear, should be on par. I don't need a 64bit binary right now. Actually, I would even prefer a 32bit one for development because then I can't run too wild in memory usage. The problem is that DMD seems to require 32 bit windows, according to the page I linked... Is it not true? DMD runs just fine on 64-bit Windows.
