Re: [digitalradio] Re: THOR robustness or lack thereof
Hi Tony Are you using this software: http://software.muzychenko.net/eng/vac.html as a Virtual Audio Cable ? 73 de LA5VNA Steinar Tony wrote: Dave, On other thing that I can not understand is why THOR's performance proved to be so poor on Tony's tests. Where can I find the specifics on the reference tests? Please see attached for the HF Path Simulations. Here are some of the details... OS: Windows Vista Simulator: Moe Wheatley's PathSim Software: Fldigi (and others) Sound card: Realtek HD / Virtual Audio Cable. Virtual Audio Cable was used to route the audio between the HF path simulator and Fldigi. The same configuration was used to test other modes with other software; Mixw, DM780, Multipsk etc. The two-PC method was tried as well with the path simulator and digital mode software running on separate machines. The results were the same. The tests were conducted with only the path simulator and digital mode software running. PathSim adds AWGN to simulate signal-to-noise ratio. You'll find the details about the HF path simulator here: http://www.moetronix.com/ae4jy/files/pathsimtech100.pdf For fldigi: Selected sampling rate Selected converter PPM offset for Rx I have the Vista version... Tony, K2MO - Original Message - From: David Freese [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 9:37 AM Subject: [digitalradio] Re: THOR robustness or lack thereof --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Rick W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Great information, Dave, On other thing that I can not understand is why THOR's performance proved to be so poor on Tony's tests. The robustness to multipath and Doppler does not seem to show up although sensitivity at -15 dB SNR seems quite good. Where can I find the specifics on the reference tests? For system: Platform and OS Sound card system # of concurrent modem programs running Test software used? on-line signal generation? characteristics of noise generator? how was multipath and doppler generated? For fldigi: Selected sampling rate Selected converter PPM offset for Rx Dave, W1HKJ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.0/1720 - Release Date: 11.10.2008 15:59
[digitalradio] Newbi here
Hi group, just thought id better say hi as new to the group Call is 2e0mvb loc JO02eg, very much into digi modes just started playing with 2mtr ssb was wondering if anyone works 2mtrs with psk as never heard any? if interested let me know 73 and may we all be QRM/N free Steve 2e0mvb
RE: [digitalradio] RFSM file transfer
I agree with Les. great program under moderate to good conditions. I haven't tried anything as big as 4mb file, but have great results with text and .jpg files of 20 to 50K . RFSM passes these in just a few minutes. a 30k file in under 2 minutes under good conditions. Have been using the email server function on RFSM with good success, passing emails back and forth from HF digital to the internet.. Now that summer is over in this part of the world , will get back to playing with this and other software John VE5MU From: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Les Keppie Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 7:58 PM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] RFSM file transfer Hi Tommi In testing here in VK - VK2JN and VK2DSG have passed files in excess of 4 Mb on 80m band - best time seems to be late afternoon when atmospheric noise is a lesser problem Both stations here using licenced versions of RFSM8000 VER .534 To achieve these speeds around the 3000 bps you do require quite good S/NR figures - but who is going to try and pass a 4mb file if S/NR is -5 - just forget about it until you have good conditions Sound card calibration is another thing that requires some attention using this program to get the best transfer speeds Here in VK we both used CheckSR.exe from MixW - and Calibrate.exe from RFSM8000 - later withdrawn by author But we used to calibrate with both programs and then made an average reading of both results and used this in the tx/rx soundcard setup In my opinion - a good program for use on HF - given fair to good conditions and maybe a lot better on VHF Regards Les VK2DSG From: Tommi Holopainen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 6:04 AM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: [digitalradio] RFSM file transfer Hello Just wondering has anybody else tryed transfer quite big files on HF with RFSM or some other mode?. We just tranfered OH7TE --- OH7JJT Big 1.3 MB file 80m band. File was simply zipped program file. Propagation on 80m band was not very good, some qrm, aurora and fading as usually here dark time. We had abt 400 km QRB. Transfer time was about 1 hour Stations setup: OH7JJT: Yaesu FT 990 40 w Dipole abt 8 m up Software RFSM 8000 version 0.534 OH7TE JUMA TRX2A Digi Mode Edition + Lauta Mosfet PA abt 60 w Dipole up 12m Software RFSM 8000 version 0.534 -Tommi OH7JJT-
Re: [digitalradio] THOR robustness or lack thereof
Rick, On other thing that I can not understand is why THOR's performance proved to be so poor on Tony's tests. Dave points out that this could be a sample rate problem. Fldigi did just fine with other modes during the HF path simulations so the question is whether the sampling issue is unique to Thor or is the mode simply less tolerable to signal spread as the path simulator indicates. Tony, KHMU - Original Message - From: Rick W [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 5:39 PM Subject: [digitalradio] THOR robustness or lack thereof Great information, Dave, On other thing that I can not understand is why THOR's performance proved to be so poor on Tony's tests. The robustness to multipath and Doppler does not seem to show up although sensitivity at -15 dB SNR seems quite good. It might be understandable with the more severe amounts such as high latitude 7 msec path delay and 30 Hz Doppler, where the test indicated no copy with THOR11 even at -3 dB SNR. But even at more modest low latitude 6 ms path delay with 10 Hz Doppler and a -8 dB SNR there is still no copy. And most surprising is the Mid-Latitude 2 ms path delay with only 1 Hz Doppler at -8 dB and THOR11 was decoding only 80%. At most of these conditions, Olivia 500/16, and Olivia 500/8, and often MFSK16, provided perfect copy and THOR11 showed no copy at all. Can anyone explain how this can be? 73, Rick, KV9U David Freese wrote: The following is an excerpt from the web page Sights and Sounds of Digital Signals, http://www.w1hkj.com/FldigiHelp/Modes/index.htm. THOR Modes General Description THOR is a family of offset incremental multi-frequency shift keyed modes with low symbol rate, closely related to DominoEX. A single carrier of constant amplitude is stepped between 18 tone frequencies in a constant phase manner. As a result, no unwanted sidebands are generated, and no special amplifier linearity requirements are necessary. The tones change according to an offset algorithm which ensures that no sequential tones are the same or adjacent in frequency, considerably enhancing the inter-symbol interference resistance to multi-path and Doppler effects. The mode has full-time Forward Error Correction, so is extremely robust. The default speed (11 baud) was designed for NVIS conditions (80m at night), and other speeds suit weak signal LF, and high speed HF use. The use of incremental keying gives the mode complete immunity to transmitter-receiver frequency offset, drift and excellent rejection of propagation induced Doppler. Protocol These are unconnected, manually controlled message asynchronous simplex chat modes, using binary convolutional Forward Error Correction. The default calling mode is THOR11. Coding and Character Set A binary varicode with ASCII-256 user interface (same as MFSK16) is used. Lower case characters are sent faster. An ASCII-128 secondary character set extension allows a fixed (typically ID) message to be sent whenever the transmitter is idle. Modulation uses two dibit pairs, symbol synchronous, differential. The FEC system uses binary convolution to generate two dibits per varicode bit, and halves the corrected data rate compared to the equivalent DominoEX mode. Rate R=1/2, Constraint length K=7, Interleaver L=10 (40 bits). Operating Parameters Mode Symbol Rate Typing Speed1 Duty Cycle2 Bandwidth3 ITU Designation4 THOR45 3.90625 baud 14 wpm 100% 173 Hz 173HF1B THOR55 5.3833 baud 22 wpm 100% 244 Hz 244HF1B THOR85 7.8125 baud 28 wpm 100% 346 Hz 346HF1B THOR116 10.766 baud 40 wpm 100% 262 Hz 262HF1B THOR16 15.625 baud 58 wpm 100% 355 Hz 355HF1B THOR22 21.533 baud 78 wpm 100% 524 Hz 524HF1B Notes: 1. WPM is based on an average 5 characters per word, plus word space. Values based on sending 100 paris words. 2. Transmitter average power output relative to a constant carrier of the same PEP value. 3. This is the Necessary Bandwidth as defined by the ITU. 4. A summary of the ITU Designation system can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_radio_emissions 5. Double spaced mode. 6. Default and normal calling mode. Implementation details are contained in the GPL software source code for fldigi which can be downloaded from the following site: http://www.w1hkj.com/fldigi-distro/fldigi-3.03.tar.gz This is a tar zipped format that will be familiar to all Unix, Linux, Free BSD and OS X developers. Windows developers can unzip this type of archive using one of several archive managers including PKZIP. Fldigi is open source source software that is licensed under the General Public License, http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html. You are free to use the source intact, to modify, to improve and even to incorporate into a commercial product. You must however abide by the the license under which it has been developed and published. To date one other amateur product has
Re: [digitalradio] THOR robustness or lack of thereof
Rick, On other thing that I can not understand is why THOR's performance proved to be so poor on Tony's tests. Dave points out that this could be a sample rate problem. Fldigi did just fine with other modes during the HF path simulations so the question is whether the sampling issue is unique to Thor or is the mode simply less tolerable to signal spread as the path simulator indicates. Tony, K2MO
Re: [digitalradio] RFSM file transfer
Hello Ive been using rfsm2400 for emcom purposes it is awesome I have sent simulated reports to stations in as little as 31sec min text format my question is what freq are available and calls for email access and other info would be great thanks MATTHEW A. GREGORY KC2PUA - Original Message From: John Bradley [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 12:19:58 PM Subject: RE: [digitalradio] RFSM file transfer I agree with Les… great program under moderate to good conditions. I haven’t tried anything as big as 4mb file, but have great results with text and .jpg files of 20 to 50K … RFSM passes these in just a few minutes… a 30k file in under 2 minutes under good conditions. Have been using the email server function on RFSM with good success, passing emails back and forth from HF digital to the internet…. Now that summer is over in this part of the world , will get back to playing with this and other software John VE5MU From:digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:digitalradi [EMAIL PROTECTED] com] On Behalf Of Les Keppie Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 7:58 PM To: digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Subject: Re: [digitalradio] RFSM file transfer Hi Tommi In testing here in VK - VK2JN and VK2DSG have passed files in excess of 4 Mb on 80m band - best time seems to be late afternoon when atmospheric noise is a lesser problem Both stations here using licenced versions of RFSM8000 VER .534 To achieve these speeds around the 3000 bps you do require quite good S/NR figures - but who is going to try and pass a 4mb file if S/NR is -5 - just forget about it until you have good conditions Sound card calibration is another thing that requires some attention using this program to get the best transfer speeds Here in VK we both used CheckSR.exe from MixW - and Calibrate.exe from RFSM8000 - later withdrawn by author But we used to calibrate with both programs and then made an average reading of both results and used this in the tx/rx soundcard setup In my opinion - a good program for use on HF - given fair to good conditions and maybe a lot better on VHF Regards Les VK2DSG From:Tommi Holopainen Sent:Monday, October 13, 2008 6:04 AM To:digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Subject:[digitalradio] RFSM file transfer Hello Just wondering has anybody else tryed transfer quite big files on HF with RFSM or some other mode?. We just tranfered OH7TE --- OH7JJT Big 1.3 MB file 80m band. File was simply zipped program file. Propagation on 80m band was not very good, some qrm, aurora and fading as usually here dark time. We had abt 400 km QRB. Transfer time was about 1 hour Stations setup: OH7JJT: Yaesu FT 990 40 w Dipole abt 8 m up Software RFSM 8000 version 0.534 OH7TE JUMA TRX2A Digi Mode Edition + Lauta Mosfet PA abt 60 w Dipole up 12m Software RFSM 8000 version 0.534 -Tommi OH7JJT-
[digitalradio] Ubuntu and flidigi - help
Hi, gang, well I took the plunge and set up a machine with Ubuntu used Synaptic to install Fldigi and I can't find it or any of the Amateur Radio programs that I supposedly installed could someone contact me off list and point me in the correct direction. I'm new to Linux and this has me baffled. Tnx a bunch and 73 Curt Curt Givens KC8STE, AAR5VR Army MARS Earthdog and Special Programs Director GCDOC/GCAC Dayton, OH Registering lawful Americans who possess a gun to stop armed criminals, is like registering virgins to stop prostitution.
[digitalradio] QRV MT63 / Contestia 1k / 16
All, I'm QRV MT63 / Contestia (1k 16 tone) / 14106.0 USB @ 2230z ~ 0030z. Tony, K2MO
Re: [digitalradio] Ubuntu and flidigi - help
Hi Curt, I will post instead of email in case some one else might be interested. Fldigi is probably in directory /usr/bin ... to make sure, click the menu item 'Places' followed by 'Search for Files'. In the search program, in the name contains field, enter 'fldigi' (no apostrophes). Select 'File System' in the Look in folder field. Search will show you all the places where there is anything named fldigi. The items that have a blue diamond icon are the executable programs. When you double click one of them it will start, and will show the fldigi version in the title bar. The version packaged for apt is probably old but it is still a very good program. If you decide to upgrade, it is pretty simple - you just replace the fldigi file with the new version. If you become interested, we can run through that too. (The main trick is to get su authority.) Howard K5HB using Ubuntu 8.04 and fldigi 3.03.1. - Original Message From: Curt Givens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Digital Radio digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 5:16:03 PM Subject: [digitalradio] Ubuntu and flidigi - help Hi, gang, well I took the plunge and set up a machine with Ubuntu used Synaptic to install Fldigi and I can't find it or any of the Amateur Radio programs that I supposedly installed could someone contact me off list and point me in the correct direction. I'm new to Linux and this has me baffled. Tnx a bunch and 73 Curt Curt Givens KC8STE, AAR5VR Army MARS Earthdog and Special Programs Director GCDOC/GCAC Dayton, OH Registering lawful Americans who possess a gun to stop armed criminals, is like registering virgins to stop prostitution.
Re: [digitalradio] RFSM file transfer
Several of us have tested RFSM2400 on HF and some local hams have tested it with me on VHF. While you do need pretty good signals to work at the higher speeds, it can work quite well as long as signals are high enough above zero dB SNR to permit throughput at the slowest speed. I like the idea of having one basic software package that covers a wide spectrum of conditions and has a very basic and understandable appearance on the computer screen. You can use these high baud rate single tone MIL-STD-188-110 modems here in the U.S. throughout most of the VHF and higher bands and also it is my view that they can be used to transmit images and FAX in the phone/image portions of the bands. I doubt that the FCC will give you any grief if you do that. If you had the commercial product, which has a server, I think you could also act as a gateway station to forward e-mail into the internet. John, VE5MU, would know how that is done. 73, Rick, KV9U matt gregory wrote: Hello Ive been using rfsm2400 for emcom purposes it is awesome I have sent simulated reports to stations in as little as 31sec min text format my question is what freq are available and calls for email access and other info would be great thanks MATTHEW A. GREGORY KC2PUA
Re: [digitalradio] Ubuntu and flidigi - help
I just realized I left you hanging on how to start fldigi... Since it is in a location that is normally in the path statement, you can open a terminal window and enter fldigi. If you want a menu item to point to fldigi you can select 'System' then 'Preferences' then 'Main Menu' This opens a window that allows you to add menu items. It adds items to whichever item is selected on the left. Howard K5HB - Original Message From: Howard Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 7:03:27 PM Subject: Re: [digitalradio] Ubuntu and flidigi - help Hi Curt, I will post instead of email in case some one else might be interested. Fldigi is probably in directory /usr/bin ... to make sure, click the menu item 'Places' followed by 'Search for Files'. In the search program, in the name contains field, enter 'fldigi' (no apostrophes) . Select 'File System' in the Look in folder field. Search will show you all the places where there is anything named fldigi. The items that have a blue diamond icon are the executable programs. When you double click one of them it will start, and will show the fldigi version in the title bar. The version packaged for apt is probably old but it is still a very good program. If you decide to upgrade, it is pretty simple - you just replace the fldigi file with the new version. If you become interested, we can run through that too. (The main trick is to get su authority.) Howard K5HB using Ubuntu 8.04 and fldigi 3.03.1. - Original Message From: Curt Givens [EMAIL PROTECTED] net To: Digital Radio digitalradio@ yahoogroups. com Cc: illinoisdigitalham@ yahoogroups. com Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 5:16:03 PM Subject: [digitalradio] Ubuntu and flidigi - help Hi, gang, well I took the plunge and set up a machine with Ubuntu used Synaptic to install Fldigi and I can't find it or any of the Amateur Radio programs that I supposedly installed could someone contact me off list and point me in the correct direction. I'm new to Linux and this has me baffled. Tnx a bunch and 73 Curt Curt Givens KC8STE, AAR5VR Army MARS Earthdog and Special Programs Director GCDOC/GCAC Dayton, OH Registering lawful Americans who possess a gun to stop armed criminals, is like registering virgins to stop prostitution.
[digitalradio] aprs beacon text
Hello Folks, Easy question for you all. I have a tnc, ah that nice. I am hoping to use it a beacon a known location, ie: I know the Lat and Lon but no GPS for this setup. So the question. What is the text I need in the Beacon test atream so it appears on the aprs network. Thanks, Lee kd4gcf
Re: [digitalradio] aprs beacon text
Something like :=3927.01N/09102.93W- At 07:38 PM 10/13/2008, you wrote: Hello Folks, Easy question for you all. I have a tnc, ah that nice. I am hoping to use it a beacon a known location, ie: I know the Lat and Lon but no GPS for this setup. So the question. What is the text I need in the Beacon test atream so it appears on the aprs network. Thanks, Lee kd4gcf
[digitalradio] Re: RFSM file transfer
CAN YOU COMPARE RFSM 8000 TO PACTOR III UNDER SIMILAR CONDITIONS ? --- In digitalradio@yahoogroups.com, Les Keppie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Tommi In testing here in VK - VK2JN and VK2DSG have passed files in excess of 4 Mb on 80m band - best time seems to be late afternoon when atmospheric noise is a lesser problem Both stations here using licenced versions of RFSM8000 VER .534 To achieve these speeds around the 3000 bps you do require quite good S/NR figures - but who is going to try and pass a 4mb file if S/NR is -5 - just forget about it until you have good conditions Sound card calibration is another thing that requires some attention using this program to get the best transfer speeds Here in VK we both used CheckSR.exe from MixW - and Calibrate.exe from RFSM8000 - later withdrawn by author But we used to calibrate with both programs and then made an average reading of both results and used this in the tx/rx soundcard setup In my opinion - a good program for use on HF - given fair to good conditions and maybe a lot better on VHF Regards Les VK2DSG From: Tommi Holopainen Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 6:04 AM To: digitalradio@yahoogroups.com Subject: [digitalradio] RFSM file transfer Hello Just wondering has anybody else tryed transfer quite big files on HF with RFSM or some other mode?. We just tranfered OH7TE --- OH7JJT Big 1.3 MB file 80m band. File was simply zipped program file. Propagation on 80m band was not very good, some qrm, aurora and fading as usually here dark time. We had abt 400 km QRB. Transfer time was about 1 hour Stations setup: OH7JJT: Yaesu FT 990 40 w Dipole abt 8 m up Software RFSM 8000 version 0.534 OH7TE JUMA TRX2A Digi Mode Edition + Lauta Mosfet PA abt 60 w Dipole up 12m Software RFSM 8000 version 0.534 -Tommi OH7JJT-
