Re: [tdf-discuss] Better defaults
In data mercoledì 27 ottobre 2010 21:41:20, Marc Paré ha scritto: I don't think I would favour this. There is too much potential for gathering data from users and we could really run in trouble if criticism were to spread that we are data mining our LibO users. Is there anything like that on the debian project? Ubuntu can gather data form its package manager, if the user enables it. The point is how much the user is aware of the process and how much transparent the process is. If you warn the user and he/she accepts to enable the gathering, I think there will be no problems. Behind the data collection, limited to name, organization, e-mail, country, and OS and language used, there should be *always* the acceptance and the decision of the user. Anyway, I think also that a request of registration during installation is acceptable. You can add, optionally, some check boxes to activate for mailing list subscriptions, eg. user, discuss, announce, and so on, so that the user who subscribe can receive info and news. This could be an idea, also. Ciao -- Valter Registered Linux User #466410 http://counter.li.org Kubuntu Linux: www.kubuntu.org OpenOffice.org: www.openoffice.org -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Better defaults
Þann fim 28.okt 2010 07:09, skrifaði Valter Mura: In data mercoledì 27 ottobre 2010 21:41:20, Marc Paré ha scritto: I don't think I would favour this. There is too much potential for gathering data from users and we could really run in trouble if criticism were to spread that we are data mining our LibO users. Is there anything like that on the debian project? Ubuntu can gather data form its package manager, if the user enables it. KDE has an automatic usage survey/bugreporting in the case of a crash, you have to install some kernel headers for it to be of any real help though. The point is how much the user is aware of the process and how much transparent the process is. If you warn the user and he/she accepts to enable the gathering, I think there will be no problems. Behind the data collection, limited to name, organization, e-mail, country, and OS and language used, there should be *always* the acceptance and the decision of the user. Maybe more users would participate if such a proposition was anonymous (an occasional popup asking whether some usage data might be sent to the devs); region, locale, OS, software version and usage stats should suffice. If worded adequately, people should feel they're offering help for further development for the benefit of all users. Anyway, I think also that a request of registration during installation is acceptable. You can add, optionally, some check boxes to activate for mailing list subscriptions, eg. user, discuss, announce, and so on, so that the user who subscribe can receive info and news. This could be an idea, also. +1 Maybe such a popup, asking whether one would like to register and/or send usage data, should be activated a bit later than right after installation ? First time users may think it's a bit bullying/alienating having this coming up right after installation. If this pops up after some days or a certain number of launches, then the users have become a bit accustomed to the software and may thus be a bit less overwhelmed by this additional information. Just a hunch. regards, Sveinn í Felli -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Better defaults
Le 2010-10-27 22:55, Damien Ellis a écrit : On 10/24/10, RGB ESrgb.m...@gmail.com wrote: Another example: do you know anyone that use the send by email button? Most possible receivers nowadays still use msoffice so using that button have the only effect that new users come to forums asking why the people to whom they sent the file is not able to open it. I think it is better to completely hide that button. I think that a massive improvement would be keeping the button, but by default sending documents as PDF. If you are 'emailing' a document, then I would assume that you do not want them to edit it, unless specified otherwise. Because in business environments, I see people sending around things like contracts/official letters in .doc files, and if LibreOffice were smart enough to send out documents as a multi-platform, read-only document, then we could tout that as a 'corporate feature' (document security is big, yknow), whilst still providing a useful feature that people could use in real life. And you could even keep a menu option to attach as ODT or DOC for those who require it. Just my 2c. - Damien Ellis Hi Damien: I use it quite a bit and I email often for editing purposes to a group of academics. I can also tell you that the university professors that I know who use OpenOffice use it to mail back and forth to their grad students. It is an great tool. We should be pushing the ODF formats as much as possible, especially in N. America so that sending an ODF file is also a viable choice. We should not compromise our values of promoting these file formats. Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Hi Michel, 2010/10/28 Michel Gagnon mic...@mgagnon.net Le 2010-10-27 12:11, Mirek M. a écrit : Hey everyone, New post about managing tabs without rulers: http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/citrus-tabs/ Maybe I am too traditionalist, but I really don't like the idea. Typically, if I want to control tabs, I also want to see the ruler, hence seeing the little arrows in the ruler is fine with me. On the other hand, when I remove the ruler, it usually is because I want to see the final result -- or close to it. In such situations, I really don't want to see tab codes, unbreakable spaces, paragraph marks and other non-printable characters in my text. Just to be clear, these tab codes only appear when the text cursor is next to the space, like this: http://clickortap.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/citrus-tabs-cursor.png . It doesn't really mess up the document space with non-printable characters. But these tab things could definitely be turned off. That's the perk of open-source: everything can be customizable. :) -- Michel Gagnon Montréal (Québec, Canada) -- http://mgagnon.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived *** -- Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? A: http://five.sentenc.es -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Better defaults
Hi, AFAIR the translation work if the name of color matches with the translation. So already translated names should works. Regarding to color palette, for same reason we should save the old palette after the new palette. KAMI 2010-10-28 07:20 keltezéssel, Andras Timar írta: 2010.10.28. 5:47 keltezéssel, jonathon írta: On 10/27/2010 09:02 PM, Andras Timar wrote: Unfortunately changing the standard palette has significant impact on code and localizations, How so? From where I'm sitting, it looks like a simple change of standard.soc. Alternatively, throw in another palette expanded.soc. I'm not (yet) familiar with this part of the code but it seems to me that colors of standard.soc are hardwired in the code as well (http://opengrok.go-oo.org/xref/libs-core/svx/source/xoutdev/xtabcolr.cxx). The color names can be localized, but if we change the default colors, the translations should also change. Andras -- KAMI911Best regards, Kálmán „KAMI” Szalai | 神 | kami911 [at] gmail [dot] com My favorite projects: OxygenOffice Professional http://ooop.sf.net/ - office suite - for everybody | Magyarul http://hun.sf.net/ - In Hungarian Blog http://bit.ly/10ucTR | Support http://bit.ly/eYZO6 Follow me http://bit.ly/gJuJZ, if you can http://bit.ly/kDocB -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Hi Marc, 2010/10/28 Marc Paré m...@marcpare.com Le 2010-10-27 20:23, Michel Gagnon a écrit : Le 2010-10-27 12:11, Mirek M. a écrit : Hey everyone, New post about managing tabs without rulers: http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/citrus-tabs/ Maybe I am too traditionalist, but I really don't like the idea. Typically, if I want to control tabs, I also want to see the ruler, hence seeing the little arrows in the ruler is fine with me. On the other hand, when I remove the ruler, it usually is because I want to see the final result -- or close to it. In such situations, I really don't want to see tab codes, unbreakable spaces, paragraph marks and other non-printable characters in my text. Bonjour Michel: I don't mind it. Actually it reminds me of some of the music software in appearance and give the impression of a musical pause. Maybe this is why I like the look. BTW ... Mirek, are you a musician who works with music software? Just curious. :) Not really. I have worked a little with music software, yes, but I wouldn't call myself a musician. Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived *** -- Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? A: http://five.sentenc.es -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: PPC Mac, Solaris and windows x86_64 Releases
Am 27.10.2010 um 14:04 schrieb Christian Lohmaier: On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 8:13 AM, jonathon jonathon.bl...@gmail.com wrote: On 10/26/2010 07:17 PM, Carlo Strata wrote: - MacOSX 64 bit on both PPC and X86-64 platforms (I don't know if it exists a MacOSX PPC 64 bit OS...); Mac OS X is intrinsically 64 bits. That is not true. Only with Mac OSX 10.6 Server version Mac OSX itself was 64bit. Intel versions had 64bit userspace, but not core in 64bit. If you mean by that that there's no 64-bit kernel, that information should be obsolete. There is a 64-bit kernel with 10.6 (n.b., normal MacOS, not only server), and some latest Macs boot it by default: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3770 Most recent Macs can boot it, if the user chooses so: http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3773 Bottom line, some Macs support the 64-bit kernel since about two years, and it's the default on some. Applications can still run in 32-bit mode. Some applications already run in 64-bit mode by default, I noticed - like Safari, Mail, Aperture. And LO/OOo builds are built against 10.4 anyway, and that is 32bit on Intel. Peter -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
[tdf-discuss] Idea: Help publication utils in Writer and export and import
Hi! It is not easy to maintain the help such big application like LibreOffice. We might create tools in Writer that helps such publication work. Also we may create export/import filter to produce and process help content. KAMI -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Idea: Help publication utils in Writer and export and import
How about setting up an online Help wiki, the important topics from which would be turned into the Help that comes bundled with LibO? The wiki would of course need to be moderated, addable to only with an account, and some important pages would be locked and editable only by trusted users. 2010/10/28 Kálmán „KAMI” Szalai kami...@gmail.com Hi! It is not easy to maintain the help such big application like LibreOffice. We might create tools in Writer that helps such publication work. Also we may create export/import filter to produce and process help content. KAMI -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived *** -- Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? A: http://five.sentenc.es -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Idea: Help publication utils in Writer and export and import
Perhaps we should just consider to change the help system from the proprietary html-wanne-be system to a pure HTML based system. I think such systems already exists in license compatible versions. But I'm not sure. Then each individual user can choose to download an off-line help or use the on-line version. Using of cause the default web browser. This would decrease the default download size. Cheers, Leif Lodahl 2010/10/28 Mirek M. maz...@gmail.com How about setting up an online Help wiki, the important topics from which would be turned into the Help that comes bundled with LibO? The wiki would of course need to be moderated, addable to only with an account, and some important pages would be locked and editable only by trusted users. 2010/10/28 Kálmán „KAMI” Szalai kami...@gmail.com Hi! It is not easy to maintain the help such big application like LibreOffice. We might create tools in Writer that helps such publication work. Also we may create export/import filter to produce and process help content. KAMI -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org discuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%252bh...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived *** -- Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? A: http://five.sentenc.es -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Idea: Help publication utils in Writer and export and import
2010/10/28 Leif Lodahl leiflod...@gmail.com Perhaps we should just consider to change the help system from the proprietary html-wanne-be system to a pure HTML based system. I think such systems already exists in license compatible versions. But I'm not sure. Then each individual user can choose to download an off-line help or use the on-line version. Using of cause the default web browser. This would decrease the default download size. +1 Cheers, Leif Lodahl 2010/10/28 Mirek M. maz...@gmail.com How about setting up an online Help wiki, the important topics from which would be turned into the Help that comes bundled with LibO? The wiki would of course need to be moderated, addable to only with an account, and some important pages would be locked and editable only by trusted users. 2010/10/28 Kálmán „KAMI” Szalai kami...@gmail.com Hi! It is not easy to maintain the help such big application like LibreOffice. We might create tools in Writer that helps such publication work. Also we may create export/import filter to produce and process help content. KAMI -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org discuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%252bh...@documentfoundation.org discuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%252bh...@documentfoundation.org discuss%252bh...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%25252bh...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived *** -- Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? A: http://five.sentenc.es -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org discuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%252bh...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived *** -- Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? A: http://five.sentenc.es -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Copyright Assignments the Document Foundation
Charles-H. Schulz wrote: 4) the notion that we cannot change license because we don't have copyright assignment needs to be put to rest once and for all today. There is a very simple explanation with respect to this issue; ask any lawyer and he/she will confirm this: Sun/Oracle has licensed the OOo code under LGPL v3. They could have put LGPL v3 or later or LGPL v3 or +. But they didn't. And that's what makes impossible to turn OOo into a different license unless the sole copyright owner agrees to change it, which is unlikely with Oracle. In LGPL v3, clause 2, letter b) is written: then you may convey a copy of the modified version: [...] under the GNU ***GPL***, with none of the additional permissions of this License applicable to that copy.. It's the LGPL to GPL upgrade clause of LGPL 2.1 revisited. A choice is still possible, between LGPL and GPL. I don't want to start a religion war, so I'm just stating that a licensing change it's still possible. :) About the rest of your message, I largely agree with you, although a written statement from code contributors in which it's written I'm the only author and I own the copyright and any other derived right related to my contributed code would be really a good thing before starting a TDF labelled distribution of LibO. It'd be to prevent distribution liability for TDF or its founders or its members in case of unlawful contribution from third parties. You know it and you've written it too: lawyers love deep pockets when suing... ;-) Regards, -- Gianluca Turconi -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
[tdf-discuss] [UI] Splash screen
Hi everyone, Here's my proposal on how to replace the splash screen: http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/28/splash/. The Start Center would lose the standard chrome of LibO and stand as a very lightweight application that opens while LibO loads, removing the need for a splash screen. For individual applications (where the Start Center is skipped over), there would be an undistracting notification that the app is opening. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] [UI] Splash screen
2010/10/28 Johannes Bausch johannes.bau...@gmail.com I adore the Citrus UI stuff. Absolutely amazing. It reminds me a bit of a dtp rather than an office suite, which is good. And it also reminds me of Adobe Lightroom (also very good). The idea of a standalone app is good, but it could also already load stuff which is needed for writer or calc (depending on how often you use them). Usually it takes the user some seconds to decide on what he or she wants to do. And the minimal loading bar is also a great idea. :) Thanks. 2010/10/28 Mirek M. maz...@gmail.com: Hi everyone, Here's my proposal on how to replace the splash screen: http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/28/splash/. The Start Center would lose the standard chrome of LibO and stand as a very lightweight application that opens while LibO loads, removing the need for a splash screen. For individual applications (where the Start Center is skipped over), there would be an undistracting notification that the app is opening. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived *** -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived *** -- Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? A: http://five.sentenc.es -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Hi Johannes, 2010/10/28 Johannes Bausch johannes.bau...@gmail.com I really like the idea. Many new people (children) who start working with an office suite don't know what tabs are (well, at least that's what I encountered). Seeing them as dynamic whitespace like this would be a great help. Maybe this could be enhanced even further: why not making it rescalable with the mouse, and, while you do it, a line indicator showing your current position on the ruler shows up? When you release your mouse key, the ruler hides again. +1 This could then be enhanced even further by making snap points in the ruler. In a similar way it's done in Draw and Inksacpe? An office suite should work intuitively. We're working more and more with the mouse; tabs have never been the best idea for people who work not so frequently with word or writer. Le 2010-10-27 12:11, Mirek M. a écrit : Hey everyone, New post about managing tabs without rulers: http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/citrus-tabs/ -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.orgdiscuss%2bh...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived *** -- Q: Why is this email five sentences or less? A: http://five.sentenc.es -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Le 2010-10-28 05:29, Mirek M. a écrit : Hi Michel, 2010/10/28 Michel Gagnonmic...@mgagnon.net Le 2010-10-27 12:11, Mirek M. a écrit : Hey everyone, New post about managing tabs without rulers: http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/citrus-tabs/ Maybe I am too traditionalist, but I really don't like the idea. Typically, if I want to control tabs, I also want to see the ruler, hence, seeing the little arrows in the ruler is fine with me. On the other hand, when I remove the ruler, it usually is because I want to see the final result -- or close to it. In such situations, I really don't want to see tab codes, unbreakable spaces, paragraph marks and other non-printable characters in my text. Just to be clear, these tab codes only appear when the text cursor is next to the space, like this: http://clickortap.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/citrus-tabs-cursor.png . It doesn't really mess up the document space with non-printable characters. But these tab things could definitely be turned off. That's the perk of open-source: everything can be customizable. :) Ok. I see clearly. BTW, I hope I don't sound too critical. Overall, I find your reflections and suggestions on the improved interface really interesting. Regards. -- Michel Gagnon Montréal (Québec, Canada) -- http://mgagnon.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] [UI] Splash screen
Le 2010-10-28 13:42, Ercole Carpanetto a écrit : On 28 October 2010 18:42, Mirek M.maz...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone, Here's my proposal on how to replace the splash screen: http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/28/splash/. The Start Center would lose the standard chrome of LibO and stand as a very lightweight application that opens while LibO loads, removing the need for a splash screen. For individual applications (where the Start Center is skipped over), there would be an undistracting notification that the app is opening. Really nice job. E. Looks good and the reasoning behind it is sound. I like the fact that you could still choose while loading as well as the mini-progress bar. Good idea! Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Le 2010-10-28 12:38, Johannes Bausch a écrit : I really like the idea. Many new people (children) who start working with an office suite don't know what tabs are (well, at least that's what I encountered). Seeing them as dynamic whitespace like this would be a great help. Maybe this could be enhanced even further: why not making it rescalable with the mouse, and, while you do it, a line indicator showing your current position on the ruler shows up? When you release your mouse key, the ruler hides again. This could then be enhanced even further by making snap points in the ruler. An office suite should work intuitively. We're working more and more with the mouse; tabs have never been the best idea for people who work not so frequently with word or writer. I agree with this. I still find it amazing that my grade 8 students are still unaware of the use of tabs in wordprocessing. They are aware of the Alt-tab cycling of windows but not in document writing. The same can be said for creating tables. I also agree with Johannes, that if the students had this option, or even better, if teachers had this option for the younger student, it would be a great tool to use to explore the world of tabs. Kids are very visual and react quite favourably with visual objects. Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Copyright Assignments the Document Foundation
- Original Message From: Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org Le Thu, 28 Oct 2010 07:12:59 -0700 (PDT), BRM bm_witn...@yahoo.com a écrit : From: Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org 4) the notion that we cannot change license because we don't have copyright assignment needs to be put to rest once and for all today. There is a very simple explanation with respect to this issue; ask any lawyer and he/she will confirm this: Sun/Oracle has licensed the OOo code under LGPL v3. They could have put LGPL v3 or later or LGPL v3 or +. But they didn't. And that's what makes impossible to turn OOo into a different license unless the sole copyright owner agrees to change it, which is unlikely with Oracle. While I like that TDF is not requiring copyright assignment, there is one point missing here that is in its favor. True, Sun/Oracle has currently licensed OOo under LGPLv3. But what's to stop them from going to LGPLv4 when it is available? Absolutely nothing. At which point TDF may not be able to accept changes from OOo any longer assuming it is still possible at that time without updating the LO license to be the same or inclusive therein. Perhaps the way around that is to require those contributing TDF to use the or later language; though some may not want to. Even without copyright assignment the only thing standing in the way of changing the license - whether to LGPLv4 or even GPLv3 or whatever else - is getting the permission of _all_ the copyright holders. Good objection indeed! Actually, the problem is partly solved, since we now license our software under LGPL v3 or later. At least it would be solved for the LGPL side of things. But my real answer here though, is perhaps more provocative: if Oracle changes the licence, do we really care? for the 3.3 we stick to the codebase of OOo, but I'm unsure we'll stick that much to it in further releases. In fact, I can already point out, looking at our development activity, that we're not taking the path of being OpenOffice.org, just recompiled by the community. I think as the time will go by, we will diverge more and more and end up becoming quite different software. For the most part, probably not. Though all code coming from OOo is LGPLv3 only, you might for whatever code is shared if LO was to relicense its code under LGPLv4 or later at some point, if only to gain the advantages of the new version of the license from the FSF. And I in no way intended to make it sound as if LO is just a community recompile of OOo; rather, it is the community extension of OOo. Kind of similar to how Andrew Morton and Linus Torvalds both had their own development trees and releases of the Linux Kernel. Linus' is the official kernel, but it equally competed with the mm branch maintained by Andrew Morton. The mm branch typically had everything in Linus' branch plus some other stuff - extra patches, etc. - that Linus is not ready or willing to accept yet.[1] LO, at least at this juncture, is very similar with OOo - it's inherited a huge code base that has to be maintained, and is adding its own stuff. It is wise to incorporate the changes from OOo for any overlap there is if not only so there is a lower level of support required for LO until those parts get written out, etc. The bigger difference here is that LO has to worry about user interface stuff - where Andrew Morton does not. Only time will truly tell how the two products (LO and OOo) diverge; but we shouldn't shut the door or exclude the possibility of continued merges from OOo. As a developer I certainly do like the no copyright assignment; as an organization looking to be able to enforce and update the license as necessary to maintain the product I would prefer the copyright assignment. As I said earlier, both have their pros and cons. I wonder if anyone has ever investigated a middle-ground - a contract between the organization and the developer such that the developer allows the organization to update the license so long as the license meets certain conditions - so the organization can be pro-active concerning license changes, yet doing so without assigning copyright. While IANAL it seems there might be a way to meet both needs. Again, just $0.02. Ben [1] mm tree was closed down several years back. So it's no longer current, but there are still numerous other layers in the Linux development model that do just this still. -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Copyright Assignments the Document Foundation
BRM wrote: The Linux Kernel guys don't require it; KDE E.v. does. Both methods have their pros and cons. Hi, just a very small correction here - KDE e.V. does not require it, it is optional to sign their FLA (a trait shared among other FLOSS projects, e.g. the Python Foundation acts similarly). Cheers, -- Thorsten -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
The only reason to see tab stops and other formatting codes is if you need to *interact* with them: if you have a good set of paragraph styles the ability to see tab stops and other formatting codes is useless. So, all the concepts presented in this thread seems to be geared towards direct formatting. If that's the case, I'm against it. While direct formatting *seems* to be good on two page school reports, it is a nightmare when you need to create complex and well structured documents. Writer have a good tradition of tools that helps the build of complex documents (styles, styles and more styles!). What I would like to see instead of more direct formatting tools, is a redesign of the way styles are defined to easy the learning curve of new users. Relying on styles is Writer's trademark. I think we need to give even more power to this trademark instead of going the route of MSWord. Just my 2 ¢ -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Better defaults
Hi Sveinn! Am Donnerstag, den 28.10.2010, 07:52 + schrieb Sveinn í Felli: Anyway, I think also that a request of registration during installation [...] +1 Maybe such a popup, asking whether one would like to register and/or send usage data, should be activated a bit later than right after installation ? First time users may think it's a bit bullying/alienating having this coming up right after installation. If this pops up after some days or a certain number of launches, then the users have become a bit accustomed to the software and may thus be a bit less overwhelmed by this additional information. Just a hunch. This is like it is handled today in OpenOffice.org. Unfortunately, there is no connection between registration dialog and OOo Improvement Program dialog. So two separate dialogs appear :-\ http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/OpenOffice.org_User_Feedback_Program#Query_Dialog Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
On Thu Oct 28 2010 14:45:36 GMT-0700 (PDT) RGB ES wrote: The only reason to see tab stops and other formatting codes is if you need to *interact* with them: if you have a good set of paragraph styles the ability to see tab stops and other formatting codes is useless. So, all the concepts presented in this thread seems to be geared towards direct formatting. If that's the case, I'm against it. While direct formatting *seems* to be good on two page school reports, it is a nightmare when you need to create complex and well structured documents. Writer have a good tradition of tools that helps the build of complex documents (styles, styles and more styles!). What I would like to see instead of more direct formatting tools, is a redesign of the way styles are defined to easy the learning curve of new users. Relying on styles is Writer's trademark. I think we need to give even more power to this trademark instead of going the route of MSWord. Just my 2 ¢ +1 -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Copyright Assignments the Document Foundation
- Original Message From: Thorsten Behrens t...@documentfoundation.org To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Thu, October 28, 2010 5:37:19 PM Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Copyright Assignments the Document Foundation BRM wrote: The Linux Kernel guys don't require it; KDE E.v. does. Both methods have their pros and cons. Hi, just a very small correction here - KDE e.V. does not require it, it is optional to sign their FLA (a trait shared among other FLOSS projects, e.g. the Python Foundation acts similarly). Thank you for the correction. I thought they did from what I had read a while back. Yet another method to accomplish the same goal. Ben -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Copyright Assignments the Document Foundation
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Charles-H. Schulz charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hello all, (apologies for this quite long email) I would like to discuss a bit the position of the Document Foundation with respect to copyright assignments. I understand there have been questions here and there about this topic, and it's perhaps necessary to explain our position. We initially agreed not to request the assignment of copyright for code contributions, and we can only witness that it's been so far the right decision: Many developers have joined us and contribute to the LibreOffice codebase or extend it by localizing it and testing LibreOffice. We knew ever since the beginning that imposing a copyright assignment would be a big minus for developers. For one thing, it represents complexity for developers, and on the other hand, the experience we had with the copyright assignment under the stewardship of Oracle speaks for itself. It is also worth noting that in practical terms, the bulk of the LibreOffice codebase, that is, everything except our new patches, our new code, the localizations, the hacks, etc. is still under copyright from Oracle. Also, as a warning of sorts, keep in mind that copyright assignments are not the same thing as software licenses. I am going to write below some of the reasons why I also think that not having a copyright assignment is either a good idea or does not really matter at all. 1) no one has yet been able to clearly articulate what advantage we would gain by having one for TDF. For instance, it's not at all clear, and is in fact quite likely than any major software vendor would be shunned away from our project if we had a copyright assignment: it would basically mean that we would own their intellectual property, and I'm not so sure it flies well with corporate lawyers in charge of protecting it. 2) the state of the art in terms of such assignments is changing rapidly. We stand at a corner of FOSS history, where the realization that projects led by one vendor only tend to fail, unless the vendor itself puts others in charge of the projects and gives free reins to its community. Look at what's happening with Fedora with respect to its ditching of copyright assignments. Experiences in other projects show that the protection that such assignments provide is at best minimal, and most of the times quickly abused, most of the time by its steward. 3) copyright assignments are not blocking the reuse of code or anything similar; there are several reasons for this, but one which is practical: a few years ago, you had a central branch with a tool like CVS. In the CVS (and even SVN) there was a real hierarchy. There was my branch and you were contributing to it. Now, many projects use similar tools, except that they are in fact quite different: they are distributed: there are as many different copies as there are developers; and the choice is social (people agree on what's best or respect the guy who has the biggest beard or something like this). So people create a big heap of code, and if they want to create their own stuff in their own corner, they do it; they don't deal with hierarchies, and paperwork. If they're not happy, they leave. That's how it works today. BTW; LibreOffice uses Git, which is a distributed SCM. 4) the notion that we cannot change license because we don't have copyright assignment needs to be put to rest once and for all today. There is a very simple explanation with respect to this issue; ask any lawyer and he/she will confirm this: Sun/Oracle has licensed the OOo code under LGPL v3. They could have put LGPL v3 or later or LGPL v3 or +. But they didn't. And that's what makes impossible to turn OOo into a different license unless the sole copyright owner agrees to change it, which is unlikely with Oracle. 5) based on my 4) point, you can object that without a copyright assignment, we would be stuck with the same license for ever, since we would not be able to decide to change the license of our lines of code. In fact, the problem lies in the heap of code we would have to change in order to be able to turn the whole code into something else... but here's what the developers of LibreOffice did: they simply didn't change the license, they started to license their own changes under the same license (LGPL V3)... and added : or + after it. So the license will change or at least be modified that way. But what if we want to change the whole thing? well, we'll contact all the authors who got their code into LibreOffice. We have their emails, etc. And if some of them don't agree with us, then perhaps we'll have to redevelop their own code. 6) there is also a confusion between copyright assignment and copyright protection. True, when you assign code to the FSF, you do expect to be legally protected against unpleasant surprises. But developers can also decide they don't like the
Re: [tdf-discuss] UI proposal
Le 2010-10-28 17:45, RGB ES a écrit : The only reason to see tab stops and other formatting codes is if you need to *interact* with them: if you have a good set of paragraph styles the ability to see tab stops and other formatting codes is useless. So, all the concepts presented in this thread seems to be geared towards direct formatting. If that's the case, I'm against it. While direct formatting *seems* to be good on two page school reports, it is a nightmare when you need to create complex and well structured documents. Writer have a good tradition of tools that helps the build of complex documents (styles, styles and more styles!). What I would like to see instead of more direct formatting tools, is a redesign of the way styles are defined to easy the learning curve of new users. Relying on styles is Writer's trademark. I think we need to give even more power to this trademark instead of going the route of MSWord. Just my 2 ¢ Yes, but from an instructional point of view in the classroom, the treatment of tabs in this manner would be welcomed. It would clearly illustrate the use of tabs to the majority of students who find it confusing. Marc -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] [UI] Splash screen
Hi Mirek! Am Donnerstag, den 28.10.2010, 18:42 +0200 schrieb Mirek M.: Hi everyone, Here's my proposal on how to replace the splash screen: http://clickortap.wordpress.com/2010/10/28/splash/. Here are some similar proposals that have been collected for the OOo StartCenter quite some time ago. Also valid for LibO, of course ;-) http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/StartCenter#Mockups Up-/Down-Scrolling required ... Cheers, Christoph -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
