Re: [tdf-discuss] Reply settings on this list have changed
Florian, On 13 August 2012 02:21, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: > > I was not aware that any list existed that did not use "reply mangling" so > that the reply (by default) went back to the list Will be interested to > see what occurs. > > > > > On 08/12/2012 12:26 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> this is to inform you that the reply settings on this list have changed >> (so-called "Reply to mangling" has been disabled). >> >> So far, e-mails had set a reply-to the mailing list address. In other >> words, with any e-mail client, replies to e-mails on the list were >> automatically sent directly to the list. >> >> In the past, this lead to two major problems: >> >> 1. Several times, people have sent direct replies to the public list, >> where deleting them is nearly impossible. I remember at least one case >> where confidential information has been sent out that caused lots of >> worries for the sender and his employer. This happened because people hit >> "reply" and thought it would reply to the sender only. >> >> 2. I have heard complaints in the past from people, stating that working >> with the non-developer lists of LibreOffice is a pain for them, because of >> reply-to mangling, resulting in a lack of communication. This also led to >> the fact that numerous tasks were done by the same people, who needed to >> spend more and more time, instead of sharing the work burden with others. >> While I do not fully believe this argument, there's just one way to find >> out... >> >> Therefore, I have applied a change: >> >> Replies to e-mails from the list now only go to the original sender. You >> either need to use the "reply to all" feature of your e-mail program, or - >> preferably - the "reply to list"/"reply to group" feature, which will >> direct replies directly to the list. >> >> This is common practice on most mailing lists, and even the default >> setting for our mailing list software, so we did not re-invent the wheel >> here. Those seeking for details should have a look at >> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html >> >> I know we had numerous discussions on this topic in the past, but the >> outcome was that roughly 50% were for this change, and 50% refused it, so I >> am really sitting between two chairs here, for which I beg for your >> understanding. On the one hand, those complaining the lists are unusable >> with reply-to mangling, on the other hand, those complaining the lists are >> unusable without reply-to mangling. Unfortunately, combining those two, >> even on a per-recipient basis, is not possible, so they are mutually >> exclusive to each other. >> >> In order to find out the real impact, I simply changed the setting, and >> again, I beg for your understanding. >> >> Do not worry: The mailing lists are for the community, so it's the >> community deciding how they should work. What I'd like to ask all of you is >> to try out for a few days if that change is good for each list or not. >> Should we find out it is more harmful than it helps, I will immediately >> switch back to the old behaviour. >> >> Sorry for this short notice, and I beg for your understanding that I'm >> somehow sitting between two chairs here. >> >> Florian >> >> > I will find this a real pain. I use Gmail, which seems to only have Reply and Reply to All. There is no Reply to List. So to send this back to the list I have to Reply to All, remove Andrew from the To box, and Cut and Paste the list address from the CC box. If I do not do this, Andrew will get my message twice. Please put it back the way it was, Tony -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Reply settings on this list have changed
On 13 August 2012 09:58, Michael Meeks wrote: > > On Mon, 2012-08-13 at 08:14 +0100, Tony Pursell wrote: > > I will find this a real pain. I use Gmail, which seems to only have > Reply > > and Reply to All. There is no Reply to List. So to send this back to > the > > list I have to Reply to All, remove Andrew from the To box, and Cut and > > Paste the list address from the CC box. If I do not do this, Andrew will > > get my message twice. > > But getting the mail twice is a feature :-) that means you can > filter > the bulk mailing list traffic out to a folder, and still have personally > addressed copies of responses to your posts in interesting threads :-) > [as Florian says, there is no clearly right decision here]. > > ATB, > > Michael. > > -- > michael.me...@suse.com <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot > > But the point here is that I am replying to the discussion in general, and not to Andrew's point, so an extra copy to Andrew would have been pointless. Tony -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Reply settings on this list have changed
Hi Florian, *, Am 12.08.2012 18:26 schrieb Florian Effenberger: > this is to inform you that the reply settings on this list have > changed (so-called "Reply to mangling" has been disabled). > So far, e-mails had set a reply-to the mailing list address. In other > words, with any e-mail client, replies to e-mails on the list were > automatically sent directly to the list. > In the past, this lead to two major problems: [.. pro and cons of reply-to mangling - separate topic ..] > Therefore, I have applied a change: [.. more pro and cons of reply-to mangling - separate topic ..] > In order to find out the real impact, I simply changed the setting, > and again, I beg for your understanding. we already discussed that October til December 2011: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.moderators/220 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss/7433 kind of resume by me: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.documentfoundation.discuss/7433/focus=7495 I noticed several people objecting against that change, each having "man years" of commuinity work on their backs. So this is a good point to hook in: How do we handle changes affecting hundreds or even thousands of community members? Three questions from my side: - what was the final push to do this change *right now*? - what were the thoughts to do the change *this way*? - what was the criteria of balancing the effects between change and no change (not the ones *this* behaviour or *that* behaviour)? > Do not worry: The mailing lists are for the community, so it's the > community deciding how they should work. What I'd like to ask all of > you is to try out for a few days if that change is good for each list > or not. Should we find out it is more harmful than it helps, I will > immediately switch back to the old behaviour. I still can't see the problem this "test" should solve, which wouldn't need additional work on, to be solved reliably. > Sorry for this short notice, and I beg for your understanding that I'm > somehow sitting between two chairs here. Stop doing things You're sorry about. ;o)) Gruß/regards -- Friedrich Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/ LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Reply settings on this list have changed
Hi All, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote (13-08-12 15:21) this is to inform you that the reply settings on this list have changed (so-called "Reply to mangling" has been disabled). So far, e-mails had set a reply-to the mailing list address. In other words, with any e-mail client, replies to e-mails on the list were automatically sent directly to the list. In the past, this lead to two major problems: [.. pro and cons of reply-to mangling - separate topic ..] Therefore, I have applied a change: [.. more pro and cons of reply-to mangling - separate topic ..] I see it happen already - and should have realised before - that with lists for users, often people with less technical focus, this will lead to a lot of extra communication, confusion. I think the primary users of those lists will benefit from the old behaviour. For all other lists, I'm not going to spend any energy on weighting pros and cons ;-) Cheers -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org - www.librelex.org -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Reply settings on this list have changed
Hi, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote on 2012-08-13 15:21: - what was the final push to do this change*right now*? - what were the thoughts to do the change*this way*? - what was the criteria of balancing the effects between change and no change (not the ones*this* behaviour or*that* behaviour)? that's easy. I right now work basically full time for TDF, but I really have to work on my "real" life. Spending hours per day on TDF doesn't allow too much other real life, so a change here is needed. Urgently. I didn't have any free weekend for months. When I tried to involve others, especially developers, I (too) often heard the argument that they don't follow the lists because of their respective configuration. However, if you don't want to burn me, we *urgently* need to get more people involved, since my day only has 24 hours, and I also need to work on some some other things besides TDF. It simply is a try if people now, that the change has been done, indeed would jump on the lists, or if this was a false argument. Discussion lead to nowhere, and even now, we receive very contrary feedback - some people hate the change, others are in full favor of it. So, indeed, discussing it over and over again doesn't change anything, and IMHO, the best way to give it a try is by doing it. Call it selfish, but if you spend hours a day working on TDF matters, and you hear the argument that people would do much more if the lists were configured the right way - would you give it a try? Discussing does not help me in any way... Florian -- Florian Effenberger, Chairman of the Board (Vorstandsvorsitzender) Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 The Document Foundation, Zimmerstr. 69, 10117 Berlin, Germany Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Reply settings on this list have changed
On 2012-08-12 12:26 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote: I know we had numerous discussions on this topic in the past, but the outcome was that roughly 50% were for this change, and 50% refused it, so I am really sitting between two chairs here, for which I beg for your understanding. On the one hand, those complaining the lists are unusable with reply-to mangling, on the other hand, those complaining the lists are unusable without reply-to mangling. Unfortunately, combining those two, even on a per-recipient basis, is not possible, so they are mutually exclusive to each other. In order to find out the real impact, I simply changed the setting, and again, I beg for your understanding. The ideal would be a way for this setting to be per user... I'm fairly sure the new Mailman3 will allow this... and there are lots more reasons to migrate once it is released/stable as well. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Reply settings on this list have changed
2012/8/13 Tony Pursell : > Florian, > > On 13 August 2012 02:21, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: > >> >> I was not aware that any list existed that did not use "reply mangling" so >> that the reply (by default) went back to the list Will be interested to >> see what occurs. >> >> >> >> >> On 08/12/2012 12:26 PM, Florian Effenberger wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> this is to inform you that the reply settings on this list have changed >>> (so-called "Reply to mangling" has been disabled). >>> >>> So far, e-mails had set a reply-to the mailing list address. In other >>> words, with any e-mail client, replies to e-mails on the list were >>> automatically sent directly to the list. >>> >>> In the past, this lead to two major problems: >>> >>> 1. Several times, people have sent direct replies to the public list, >>> where deleting them is nearly impossible. I remember at least one case >>> where confidential information has been sent out that caused lots of >>> worries for the sender and his employer. This happened because people hit >>> "reply" and thought it would reply to the sender only. >>> >>> 2. I have heard complaints in the past from people, stating that working >>> with the non-developer lists of LibreOffice is a pain for them, because of >>> reply-to mangling, resulting in a lack of communication. This also led to >>> the fact that numerous tasks were done by the same people, who needed to >>> spend more and more time, instead of sharing the work burden with others. >>> While I do not fully believe this argument, there's just one way to find >>> out... >>> >>> Therefore, I have applied a change: >>> >>> Replies to e-mails from the list now only go to the original sender. You >>> either need to use the "reply to all" feature of your e-mail program, or - >>> preferably - the "reply to list"/"reply to group" feature, which will >>> direct replies directly to the list. >>> >>> This is common practice on most mailing lists, and even the default >>> setting for our mailing list software, so we did not re-invent the wheel >>> here. Those seeking for details should have a look at >>> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html >>> >>> I know we had numerous discussions on this topic in the past, but the >>> outcome was that roughly 50% were for this change, and 50% refused it, so I >>> am really sitting between two chairs here, for which I beg for your >>> understanding. On the one hand, those complaining the lists are unusable >>> with reply-to mangling, on the other hand, those complaining the lists are >>> unusable without reply-to mangling. Unfortunately, combining those two, >>> even on a per-recipient basis, is not possible, so they are mutually >>> exclusive to each other. >>> >>> In order to find out the real impact, I simply changed the setting, and >>> again, I beg for your understanding. >>> >>> Do not worry: The mailing lists are for the community, so it's the >>> community deciding how they should work. What I'd like to ask all of you is >>> to try out for a few days if that change is good for each list or not. >>> Should we find out it is more harmful than it helps, I will immediately >>> switch back to the old behaviour. >>> >>> Sorry for this short notice, and I beg for your understanding that I'm >>> somehow sitting between two chairs here. >>> >>> Florian >>> >>> >> I will find this a real pain. I use Gmail, which seems to only have Reply > and Reply to All. There is no Reply to List. So to send this back to the > list I have to Reply to All, remove Andrew from the To box, and Cut and > Paste the list address from the CC box. If I do not do this, Andrew will > get my message twice. > > Please put it back the way it was, > > Tony > I use Gmail too and it seems like you don't have to cut and paste anything. Seems to be OK to leave the address in ”CC: and to leave ””To:” empty. That's what I'm doing right now, hope it works… So I click ”Reply to all” (which requires a click more than just replying), then I delete everything in ”To:”, write my message and hit ”Send”. Not very quick, though. I want the old behaviour back. There is no way to idiot proof anyway. Kind regards Johnny Rosenberg ジョニー・ローゼンバーグ -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
