Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Start 2014 with Freedom, Adopt LibreOffice in your life!

2014-01-05 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Sun, Jan 05, 2014 at 03:08:32PM +, Tom Davies wrote:

 ..snip.
> 
> This sort of thing is so obvious that we don't even need to say it
> especially since it is likely to provoke yet another argument on the
> mailing list and achieve the main goal of the Trolls, which is to make
> the mailing list look unfriendly.  So, it's better to just sit back
> and laugh at them.  Oddly it is often those people who do give some of
> the really great answers in here although many of the very best
> answerers never seem to "blow off steam" in this way.
> 

I'm not so sure their objective is to make the list seem unfriendly as
it is to aquire attention.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Start 2014 with Freedom, Adopt LibreOffice in your life!

2014-01-04 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Sat, Jan 04, 2014 at 10:45:57PM +0700, Urmas wrote:
> "Vitorio Furusho - LibreOffice":
> >Start 2014 with Freedom, Adopt LibreOffice in your life!
> 
> Do you call the absolute dependence on developers' powertrips and
> their uncontestable decisions 'freedom'? I have bad news for you
> then.

I don't usually reply to trolls like you but can you name any software
that isn't dependent on developers and their decisions?

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: A marketing lesson!

2011-12-21 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 07:19:55AM -0800, Pedro wrote:
> 
> Andrea Pescetti wrote
> > 
> > It does allow to sell copies, and the Free Software Foundation 
> > encourages it. See
> > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
> > 
> 
> Thank you for the link. Interesting reading.
> 
> I still can't imagine any situation or place where (in the current world) it
> would make sense to make a business out of selling freely available
> software...

As long as there are gullible/naive people who are too lazy to search
the web, you can make a nice livingOrder the Ferrari harry, we got
another one.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] [POLL] own forums

2011-11-10 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 11:56:58AM +0100, Florian Effenberger wrote:
> 
> So, a quick +1/-1 in this thread would be nice to get an overview
> over people's opinion. ;-)

+1

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-12 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 05:06:49PM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 2011-09-11 9:47 PM, Ken Springer  wrote:
> >Even if they did push it through, if no one enforces the eventual rule,
> >the time will be wasted.  I'd prefer interspersion, as I almost always
> >have to scroll around somewhere in order to remember what was being
> >replied to.
> 
> Most people who advocate for bottom posting really mean inline, aka
> 'interspersed' posting anyway...

I think you will find that most people are smart enough to know the
difference.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?

2011-09-10 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 05:31:50AM -0600, Ken Springer wrote:

   ..snip.
> 
> At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of
> trimming, too.

Of course that would screw non-TB users.

 snip

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Re: [tdf-discuss] ignore m$ legacy?

2011-07-30 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 03:05:18PM +0100, e-letter wrote:
> This topic has revealed the following personal observations.
> 
..snip.
> 
> The ability to import m$ formats and produce only native odf documents
> would be a good idea. Users would have a clear choice to make; either
> promote odf, or decide it is more important to produce m$ documents
> and therefore such people should simply buy m$. Of course, opponents
> of odf don't want to pay and therefore promote the "m$ is essential to
> me" viewpoint. Either pay m$, or donate the equivalent to LO to
> produce superior odf documents.

Assume for the moment that you are running a *low* budget start up
company and are dependent on the 3 or 4 customers you have managed to
land so far for your livelihood. Further, assume that these customers
require M$ formats be used for any documents being exchanged both ways.
Now your choices are:

A) use M$ compliant software
B) explain to them the advantages of open format documents, have them
think "who the Hell is this idiot to tell us how to run our company" and
lose that customer 

Now, my crusading friend, in war the motto is pick your battles. Believe
me, this isn't the right one.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Oracle contributes OOo Code to Apache Software Foundation's Incubator

2011-06-01 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Wed, Jun 01, 2011 at 09:51:09AM -0700, NoOp wrote:
> On 06/01/2011 09:23 AM, M Henri Day wrote:
> > 2011/6/1 NoOp ...
> >> More:
> >> <
> >> http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/statements-on-openofficeorg-contribution-to-apache-nasdaq-orcl-1521400.htm
> >> >
> >>
> >> It will be interesting to see how this works out & how TDF will work
> >> with ASF.
> >>
> > 
> > Fascinating, NoOp - wheels within wheels ! Thanks for posting this !...
> > 
> > Henri
> > 
> 
> TDF's Statement:
> 

TDF's statement included :

"Today we welcome Oracle’s donation of code that has previously been
proprietary to the Apache Software Foundation, it is great to see key
user features released in a form that can be included into LibreOffice."

Since when is OOo proprietary?

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

2011-04-29 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 05:47:34PM +0200, Pieter E. Zanstra wrote:
> > From: e-letter [mailto:inp...@gmail.com] 
> > Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 5:34 PM
> > To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> > Subject: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again
> > 
> > What's wrong with reading mailing list messages in digest 
> > mode and going to the searchable archive as and when appropriate.
> 
> Because people never keep focus in email, texting and twitter. Those 
> are the worst tools to support a group process. This 25 years old 
> technology should have long been abandoned in favour of more knowledge 
> based tools for a collaboration.

I don't know what lists you have seen but I've seen quite a number of
looong threads with highly involved posts and equally involved replies.
IMO forums, texting, and twitter appeal to younger users with their
shorter attention spans.

Also, the quality of the answers/help is usually greater on lists than
in forums.

Did it ever occur to you that this 25(?) year old technology is good enough
to have survived that long?

> 
> Having watched this space for a month or so, I am about to sign off.

Toodles

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

2011-04-24 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 12:51:53PM -0600, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> >
> You won't see them if you have AdBlock or other  ad blocking
> extensions for your browser. That doesn't change the fact that there
> is a commercial aspect to the forum.

With Adlock and noscript disabled I see no ads.
> 
> Larry
> -- 
> _
> Larry I. Gusaas
> Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada
> Website: http://larry-gusaas.com
> "An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs." 
> - Edgard Varese
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Forums... again

2011-04-24 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Sun, Apr 24, 2011 at 12:21:03PM -0600, Larry Gusaas wrote:
> On 2011/04/24 12:14 PM  adept techlists - kazar wrote:
> >Ah, OK, i just searched for "libreoffice forum" and found
> >http://en.libreofficeforum.org/. Uncategorized, and I believe
> >forums with categories are better learning tools. Plus, even
> >though I started from the "en." subdomain and selected English as
> >my language on the home page, when I registered a new account the
> >email instructions were:
> 
> That forum includes commercial ads. I will not support a forum driven by 
> commercial interests.

Where? I saw none.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: [Libreoffice] Microsoft Producer for Powerpoint 2003 equivalent

2011-04-07 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Thu, Apr 07, 2011 at 04:06:04PM +0100, Michael Meeks wrote:
> Hi Randolf,
> 
> On Thu, 2011-04-07 at 07:40 -0400, Randolph, Ronald E. wrote: 
> > Just a question guys, before I decide on your great product.
> 
>   End user questions don't belong on the developer list.
> 
>   Please use the discuss list for that.

First, his given name is not Randolph. It's Ronald.
Second, since when is this a developer list?

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Extensions for LibreOffice

2011-02-11 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 12:46:02PM +0100, Rainer Bielefeld wrote:
> Christophe Strobbe schrieb:
> 
> >
> >I hope they are, but[...]
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I see several problems:
> 

Has anyone gotten an untrusted site warning for this link? FF says the
certificate has expired.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Nice new download site.

2011-01-22 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 01:38:31AM +0100, Bernhard Dippold wrote:
> Hi Rainer, *
> 
> Robert Holtzman schrieb:
> >On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 11:09:15AM +0100, Rainer M Krug wrote:
> >>Hi
> >>
> >>After I raised that issue recently, I would like to say congratulations
> >>to a nice download site.
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> David and Ivan worked hard on the content and design of the new
> website, supported by Christian and Klaus-Jürgen.
> 
> I don't know who created the download selector (IIRC Christian or
> Stefan), but I'll forward your mail to the website mailing list, so
> everybody involved can read it.
> >
> >What are you replying to and why, apparently, did you start a new
> >thread?
> >
> Apparently Rainer was one of the many people asking for an improved
> download page when the site went life.
> 
> Now he wants to congratulate the team for the new download page
> (perhaps for the entire site - It seems that he isn't a native
> speaker).
> 
> You probably have already seen the present page:
> http://www.libreoffice.org/download

When I read his post and saw the phrase "After I raised that issue
recently..." I had the impression that he was replying to someone.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Nice new download site.

2011-01-21 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 11:09:15AM +0100, Rainer M Krug wrote:
> Hi
> 
> After I raised that issue recently, I would like to say congratulations
> to a nice download site.

What are you replying to and why, apparently, did you start a new
thread?

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Mac App Store

2011-01-16 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Sun, Jan 16, 2011 at 04:37:55PM -0500, Charles Marcus wrote:
> On 2011-01-12 12:25 PM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> > Le Wed, 12 Jan 2011 11:05:16 -0600,
> > Larry Gusaas  a écrit :
> >> And please tell me, what was uncivil about my post?
> 
> > The tone of your post Larry. Please re-read it.
> 
> Fwiw Larry, I circular filed your email address a while back precisely
> because:
> 
> a) the tone of your emails are (often subtly) condescending and
> offensive, and
> 
> b) when this is pointed out to you, you just don't seem to 'get it'...
> 
> Don't bother replying, as I won't see it, unless someone else replies to it.

I couldn't agree more. It's a crying shame that everyone doesn't conform
to your rules of etiquette isn't it?

Face it. The condescension and offensiveness in Larry's posts exist only
in your mind.

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Re: RE : [tdf-discuss] Re: Mac App Store

2011-01-07 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Fri, Jan 07, 2011 at 07:22:21PM +0100, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> Larry,
> 
> Let me remind you that we expect courtesy on our lists.

What was posted was in no way discourteous. You're interpreting
bluntness as discourtesy.  

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 10:51:48AM +, Ian Lynch wrote:
> School systems don't teach word processing, they teach MS Word.
> It's why we need better education and a certification programme for users
> that covers stuff like file formats and the principles of WP not just one
> product.

What's really infuriating is the listing of these various classes as
"computer classes". They have little to do with computers. They only
teach where to point and click in MSO programs.  

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:35:24AM +, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
> On 31/12/10 10:32, M. Fioretti wrote:
> >
> >wrong. Mine (mutt) doesn't for example,
> 
> Then I would plonk you immediately. How do you not see that that is
> TOTALLY ARROGANT?
> If I send you an email in plain text and you reply in HTML, because
> YOU want to, that is complete rudeness and intolerance.

Please excuse the double reply to this post. It was inadvertent.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:35:24AM +, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
> On 31/12/10 10:32, M. Fioretti wrote:
> >
> >wrong. Mine (mutt) doesn't for example,
> 
> Then I would plonk you immediately. How do you not see that that is
> TOTALLY ARROGANT?
> If I send you an email in plain text and you reply in HTML, because
> YOU want to, that is complete rudeness and intolerance.

Nowhat's arrogant is someone insisting I use an MUA that
supports HTML just so I can reply in kind to some clueless jerk who sent
me a circus poster for an email.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format

2010-12-31 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Fri, Dec 31, 2010 at 11:35:24AM +, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
> On 31/12/10 10:32, M. Fioretti wrote:
> >
> >wrong. Mine (mutt) doesn't for example,
> 
> Then I would plonk you immediately. How do you not see that that is
> TOTALLY ARROGANT?
> If I send you an email in plain text and you reply in HTML, because
> YOU want to, that is complete rudeness and intolerance.

No..what's arrogant is insisting I use an MUA that supports HTML
just so I can reply in the same format to some ignorant jerk who sends
me a circus poster for an email.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Survey: Usage of LibreOffice components

2010-11-28 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 01:30:32PM -0600, Robert Derman wrote:

...snip

> I use Writer a minimum of 1 hour every day, weekends included,
> probably an average of 3 hours a day.   I don't use any of the other
> components at all.  As far as I am concerned, I would like to see a
> Writer Only package offered.

Maybe you should use Abiword and dump LO and/or OOo unless there is some
feature of the suites that Abiword lacks. It would free up a lot of disk
space. 

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

2010-11-26 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 05:06:51AM -0500, Marc Par� wrote:
> Le 2010-11-26 01:05, Robert Holtzman a écrit :

 ..snip.

> >
> >Could you point out where I said that noobs should posses the
> >information *prior* to their first post? Obviously, the instruction
> >would be given with the initial reply.
> 
> Is that not what you wrote up above when I quoted you?
> 
> "One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that
> makes you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a
> modicum of research and try what's found before posting a question
> to a list. Also, the post should include the standard information,
> s/w version, OS, etc."

Your statement: "I believe it is asking too much from a new user to expect 
this knowledge prior to posting." sounded like you thought I expected a
first time poster to possess prior knowledge. My apologies if I got that
wrong.

 .snip

> >
> >Respect is earned by giving the time and contributing to the list.
> 
> You may have earned some respect from the people who run the help
> list but not from a new user or users who don't know you. Having
> earned the respect of others also does not make you any more special
> than anyone else. It's the impression that others have of you that
> makes you special.

Knowing me individually has nothing to do with it. When you post a
question to a list you are requesting help from a volunteer who is
donating his/her time and knowledge without compensation. This in itself
is what is deserving of respect.

  snip..

> >>
> >>So if you were guided "sometimes not so gently" when you started off
> >>this makes it right to continue with this technique? Remember, that
> >>people are here for help and not to be judged. The just want help.
> >>Again, there are simply too many unknown variables that may make a
> >>person understand "accepted guidelines" for help lists. A helping
> >>and friendly help list always wins over a condescending and
> >>patronising help list.
> >
> >First, there is nothing condescending or patronizing in what I
> >suggested.
> 
> That passage was meant as what I consider a helpdesk's attitude.
> Sorry if it sounds like it was aimed at you. It is meant as a
> general statement.

OK, I got that now.

> 
> >
> >Second, if you would bother to read my post you would see that I'm not
> >advocating insulting, belittling, or otherwise treating noobs harshly.
> >>
> 
> I don't think that your quoted comment (below) of how you feel would
> set the stage for a good reception of a user who had not filled in
> what you consider the requirements for a help request. But sure if I
> misunderstood that passage, I am sorry.
> 
> "This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid
> employees  or if the posters were paying for help. In that case

  ...short snip

> the respect of not having their time wasted trying to guess the
> problem from incomplete questions."

I'm not sure why you would get that impression. It was pretty much a
statement of fact.

> 
> >>>
> >>>As far as I'm concerned there is too much of what I call the servant
> >>>mentality on this list. I don't find nearly as much on any of the other
> >>>lists I'm involved with, including the ubuntu-users and firefox-support
> >>>lists which get their share of newly minted users who barely know how to
> >>>turn their computer on.
> >>
> >>Unfortunately, a help list/desk by definition are exactly that a
> >>service (from where the word "servant" comes from) to people who
> >>need help. If serving people in need frustrates particular people,
> >>then they should not be on the help list.
> >
> >You really do have a problem getting the sense of what I wrote. You got
> >that last part backwards.
> 
> Sorry if I did and thanks for your comments.

What I meant (and should have made plain) is that I never said I was
frustrated or didn't like helping people. Also the use of the phrase
"serving people", no matter how grammatically correct in that context,
lights my fuse. I don't serve. I realize it was probably inadvertent. 
Lending a helping hand, to me, isn't serving. It's just the decent 
thing to do.

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 check the price of the beer"

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

2010-11-25 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 05:50:39PM -0700, Craig A. Eddy wrote:
> Robert,
> 
> OK, I'll disagree with you.  But only to a degree.  I've worked the
> equivalent of an unpaid help desk on IRC (Ubuntu-Arizona LoCo). 

   .snip.
 
> 
> The system works, but, it DOES require patience and a good attitude to
> develop and manage.  As you can see, by comparing what you wrote with
> what's above, this does help the questioning individual to develop
> better skills in asking questions as well as providing him with the
> tools to provide answers himself/herself.

I'm not sure where, or even if, we diverge. The sense of what you wrote
pretty much mirrors my attitude except I'm a lot more blunt.

BTW, do you ever make the PLUG meetings? 

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

2010-11-25 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 09:47:05PM -0500, Marc Paré wrote:
> Le 2010-11-25 18:54, Robert Holtzman a écrit :
> 
> >
> >One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that makes
> >you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a modicum of
> >research and try what's found before posting a question to a list. Also,
> >the post should include the standard information, s/w version, OS, etc.
> >If you have been participating in mail lists for very long, I'm
> >surprised you don't recommend this yourself.
> 
> This usually happens as a normal course of discussion with people
> who need help. The initial contact may not have enough information
> and we usually as for more. This is pretty standard. I believe it is
> asking too much from a new user to expect this knowledge prior to
> posting. Otherwise, if we had that attitude, we would constantly be
> berating these people and making them feel like our help list is not
> really helpful.

Could you point out where I said that noobs should posses the
information *prior* to their first post? Obviously, the instruction
would be given with the initial reply. 

> 
> 
> >
> >This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid employees
> >or if the posters were paying for help. In that case pandering to lazy
> >users with an infuriating sense of entitlement might be excused because
> >one does not piss off a paying customer. The truth is, however, that the
> >contributors are unpaid volunteers who hang here from altruistic
> >motives and as such are entitled to the respect of not having their time
> >wasted trying to guess the problem from incomplete questions.
> 
> How can you be altruistic and still feel like you are entitled to
> respect from others? These seem like opposing concepts. If you are
> altruistic, then you don't care if people do not give you your
> "entitled" respect. You actually have to earn respect. People do not
> owe you respect. Otherwise, IMO, this would not make you a good
> candidate for a help list.

Respect is earned by giving the time and contributing to the list.

> 
> >
> >This may have little to do with installation instructions but it
> >addresses the flavor I'm getting from some of the messages that *all*
> >users should be catered to and the clueless ones not be guided into the
> >right way to ask questions but be tolerated and spoon fed. I have
> >nothing against clueless users. That's how everyone starts out but, I
> >remember being guided (sometimes not so gently) in how to ask questions.
> >I'm not advocating *all* noobs become proficient sysadmins but running a
> >few simple searches and trying a few things is a far cry from that.
> 
> So if you were guided "sometimes not so gently" when you started off
> this makes it right to continue with this technique? Remember, that
> people are here for help and not to be judged. The just want help.
> Again, there are simply too many unknown variables that may make a
> person understand "accepted guidelines" for help lists. A helping
> and friendly help list always wins over a condescending and
> patronising help list.

First, there is nothing condescending or patronizing in what I
suggested.

Second, if you would bother to read my post you would see that I'm not
advocating insulting, belittling, or otherwise treating noobs harshly.
> 
> >
> >As far as I'm concerned there is too much of what I call the servant
> >mentality on this list. I don't find nearly as much on any of the other
> >lists I'm involved with, including the ubuntu-users and firefox-support
> >lists which get their share of newly minted users who barely know how to
> >turn their computer on.
> 
> Unfortunately, a help list/desk by definition are exactly that a
> service (from where the word "servant" comes from) to people who
> need help. If serving people in need frustrates particular people,
> then they should not be on the help list.

You really do have a problem getting the sense of what I wrote. You got
that last part backwards.

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 check the price of the beer"

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Request: Installation Instructions

2010-11-25 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 04:44:42PM -0500, Marc Par� wrote:
> Le 2010-11-24 16:20, Robert Holtzman a écrit :
> 
> The best and most practical way is to help them out. The bottom line
> is that we would like every type of individuals to use our office
> suite and to be happy with it. I have yet to be on one "help" list
> or help forum where this question has not been asked and the best
> approach has always been to be courteous and help out. It always
> leave the user grateful and satisfied.

One of the best ways to help them out would be to (gently, if that makes
you feel better) instruct them that it is customary to do a modicum of
research and try what's found before posting a question to a list. Also,
the post should include the standard information, s/w version, OS, etc.
If you have been participating in mail lists for very long, I'm
surprised you don't recommend this yourself. 

> 
> Let's not assume that they can't/refuse"won't make an effort to
> learn and just help them out. After all, they are here for help.
> 
> If there are too many of these individuals on our help lists, then I
> would say that our help list has internal problems that need to be
> addressed. This would be more of our problem than theirs.

This might be true if the contributors to the list were paid employees
or if the posters were paying for help. In that case pandering to lazy
users with an infuriating sense of entitlement might be excused because
one does not piss off a paying customer. The truth is, however, that the
contributors are unpaid volunteers who hang here from altruistic
motives and as such are entitled to the respect of not having their time
wasted trying to guess the problem from incomplete questions. 

This may have little to do with installation instructions but it
addresses the flavor I'm getting from some of the messages that *all*
users should be catered to and the clueless ones not be guided into the
right way to ask questions but be tolerated and spoon fed. I have
nothing against clueless users. That's how everyone starts out but, I
remember being guided (sometimes not so gently) in how to ask questions.
I'm not advocating *all* noobs become proficient sysadmins but running a
few simple searches and trying a few things is a far cry from that.

As far as I'm concerned there is too much of what I call the servant
mentality on this list. I don't find nearly as much on any of the other
lists I'm involved with, including the ubuntu-users and firefox-support
lists which get their share of newly minted users who barely know how to
turn their computer on. 

Feel free to disagree with me but that's my take on these things. 

-- 
Bob Holtzman
Key ID: 8D549279
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 check the price of the beer"

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

2010-11-24 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:30:38PM +0100, Valter Mura wrote:
> In data lunedì 22 novembre 2010 22:28:54, Robert Holtzman ha scritto:
> 
> > On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 06:50:36PM +0100, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> > > On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 03:52:41PM +, Lee Hyde wrote:
> > > > original poster is making. Windows users are presented with a single
> > > > setup.exe while debian/ubuntu users are presented with a multitude of
> > > > individual .deb files. This is not user friendly!
> > > 
> > > Nonsense. dpkg -i *.deb is user friendly, despite what you want to claim.
> > > That graphical tools might make it difficult is no argument.
> > 
> >..snip.
> > 
> > Whether it's user friendly or not depends on the user. If he/she/it is
> > open to learning a *few* new things, it is extremely user friendly.
> > There is, however, a segment of the population that actively resists
> > learning *anything*.
> 
> That's why: the more user-friendly, the more Libò will spread throughout the 
> world...

I have a problem when it comes to rewarding people that refuse to make
an effort to learn. Notice, I said "refuse", not "incapable of"

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

2010-11-23 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 09:13:16AM -0500, Charles Marcus wrote:
> On 2010-11-22 9:11 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:31:58PM +0100, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> >> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 02:28:54PM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> >>> There is, however, a segment of the population that actively resists
> >>> learning *anything*.
> 
> >> And that's a problem.
> 
> > I would say that's *the* problem.
> 
> Why? People like this will *always* have a problem with *any* software
> updates that change *anything* - so, why worry about it?

Not worrried. Just an observation.

> 
> Just keep improving the software (e.g., I was really happy to see the
> prompt for making the file associations for the Microsoft formats back
> in the GUI in the LibO 3.3b3 installer), improve the FAQ's and Help
> files and Installation instructions based on feedback from the user
> community, and don't worry about 'problems' that you have no control over.

Where in my post did I indicate that I was worried?

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

2010-11-23 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:47:38AM +0930, Michael Wheatland wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:41 AM, Robert Holtzman  wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:31:58PM +0100, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> >> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 02:28:54PM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> >> > open to learning a *few* new things, it is extremely user friendly.
> >> > There is, however, a segment of the population that actively resists
> >> > learning *anything*.
> >>
> >> And that's a problem.
> >
> > I would say that's *the* problem.
> > Bob Holtzman
> 
> The message does not seem to be getting through here.
> Simply: This type of personal criticism is unacceptable in the
> LibreOffice community.

Let's try getting my message through: It's not personal criticism when
it's not directed at an individual! It's an observation. End of
discussion!

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

2010-11-22 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 10:31:58PM +0100, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 02:28:54PM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote:
> > open to learning a *few* new things, it is extremely user friendly. 
> > There is, however, a segment of the population that actively resists
> > learning *anything*.
> 
> And that's a problem.

I would say that's *the* problem.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

2010-11-22 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 01:30:19AM +0930, Michael Wheatland wrote:
> > You were responding *my* mail not referring to my contents.
> > Friedrich
> 
> I am new to this mailing list thing. I use Gmail and I reply by
> clicking the 'reply' space at the very bottom of the conversation
> list.
> How are you able to tell which message I reply to? And what should I
> be doing to ensure that the message gets to it's intended target?
> But thanks for the tip.
> 
> Yes I was most defininately referring to Rene's comments.
> I have experienced a similar type of arrogance amongst 2 other open
> source projects, one of which was resolved quickly and resolutely by
> it's members actively denouncing such attitudes within the community.

A little gratuitous advice (not criticism). If you are new to mailing
lists be aware that you should develop a thick skin. You're dealing
with people and some people have shorter fuses than others. If they come
across to you as arrogant you have several options. Ignore them, dig
through the perceived arrogance to see what they are trying to convey,
or filter their posts. The last runs the risk of missing out on
important information.

FWIW my attitude toward people learning at least the rudiments of their
OS, beyond merely where to point and click, is quite similar to Rene's.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Michael Wheatland
> 
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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

2010-11-22 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 03:06:27PM -0500, Charles Marcus wrote:
> On 2010-11-22 10:07 AM, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> > There is no goddamn need for it.
> 
> And there's no need for profanity either...

Sometimes it's required.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Request: Installation Instructions

2010-11-22 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 06:50:36PM +0100, Rene Engelhard wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 03:52:41PM +, Lee Hyde wrote:
> > original poster is making. Windows users are presented with a single
> > setup.exe while debian/ubuntu users are presented with a multitude of
> > individual .deb files. This is not user friendly!
> 
> Nonsense. dpkg -i *.deb is user friendly, despite what you want to claim.
> That graphical tools might make it difficult is no argument.

   ..snip.

Whether it's user friendly or not depends on the user. If he/she/it is 
open to learning a *few* new things, it is extremely user friendly. 
There is, however, a segment of the population that actively resists
learning *anything*.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] again: link to netiquette or libo page for listmail footer "Posting guidelines"

2010-11-08 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Mon, Nov 08, 2010 at 10:25:54PM +0100, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:

 ..snip.

> 
> I'm about to start now. So if there is a better link I will paste
> that one. Otherwise we will stick with the existing one and change it,
> once there is a better joice.

Have you looked at fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/
MailingListGuidelines?

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Copyright Assignments & the Document Foundation

2010-11-06 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Sat, Nov 06, 2010 at 03:32:32PM +0100, Gianluca Turconi wrote:
> 
> And I'm, for the life of me, now and forever, more in favor of a
> vertical foundation: more powers, in good hands.

That's fine as long as those hands remain benevolent. Not always a good
assumption. 

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: LibO Beta 2 Writer/Web (Html Document)

2010-10-20 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 09:54:11AM +0200, Alexander Thurgood wrote:
>  Hi Paul,
> 
> It is unfortunate indeed that your first experience with the Libreoffice
> community has left you feeling this way, and whilst I agree that such
> fledgling communities often lack in diplomacy and professionalism where
> they are overflowing with enthusiasm, their general aims are
> praiseworthy. Obviously, if zealotry becomes the overriding undertone to
> the detriment of actually trying to understand a user's problems, then
> there will be a problem and users will become disenchanted.


   ...snip..

You're obviously not a noob. Why can't you quote? What concern are you
addressing?

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Re: [tdf-discuss] Houston, we have a problem.

2010-10-18 Thread Robert Holtzman 
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 04:12:35PM +, Sveinn � Felli wrote:

 .humongous snip..

> 
> I think that it would be beneficial to launch a new thread on
> user-services, navigation and user-feedback in order to find a good
> structure and basic organisation. Even if things like wikis have for
> nature to auto-organise themselves, a good basic structure can speed
> up creation of their content.

I thought there was a users list.

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