Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
On 24 April 2011 21:36, Robert Derman wrote: > Jon Hamkins wrote: > >> On 04/22/2011 05:33 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: >> >>> Hi *, >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Jon Hamkins >>> wrote: >>> On 04/06/2011 04:54 AM, toki wrote: There are roughly one billion words in the English language. You could > have a LibO spell checker that contains each of those words. > Actually, there are only about one million English words in English, and that's including the 500,000 or so scientific words. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JohnnyLing.shtml >>> >>> Note that a spell checker doesn't just need to list the words, but >>> needs to know all forms of the words (plural form, genitive form, >>> different times,) >>> >> >> Well, the spell checker just needs a list of words -- grammar is something >> else. OED2 contained 290,000 entries with a total of 690,000 word forms. >> OED3 has somewhat more; a solid word list in an office suite should have >> somewhat fewer. You don't want to include obsolete words that have a close >> but different spelling from common words, for example. >> >> Jon >> > I have said this a number of times, and that at least the English version > is sadly deficient in compound words, at least the one in OOo 3.11 which I > am still using because I am reluctant to give up the personal dictionary to > which I have added perhaps thousands of compound words.If the current > release of LO is significantly better in this area I haven't heard of it. > Nor do I know how to find and save/copy/move my personal dictionary. > On a related matter, I believe that if a developer/programmer could put > instructions on this list, I believe that a few users like me with greatly > enhanced personal dictionaries could send them in as attachments and someone > could use them to build a better word list that would make for a much better > spell check function for LO. That sounds like a very good idea. Most of us here can't contribute to coding but we can contribute to things like dictionaries. We should quaickly have dictionaries that are the most comprehensive in any Office suite. -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQ www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Jon Hamkins wrote: On 04/24/2011 01:36 PM, Robert Derman wrote: I have said this a number of times, and that at least the English version is sadly deficient in compound words, at least the one in OOo 3.11 which I am still using because I am reluctant to give up the personal dictionary to which I have added perhaps thousands of compound words. If the current release of LO is significantly better in this area I haven't heard of it. Nor do I know how to find and save/copy/move my personal dictionary. On a related matter, I believe that if a developer/programmer could put instructions on this list, I believe that a few users like me with greatly enhanced personal dictionaries could send them in as attachments and someone could use them to build a better word list that would make for a much better spell check function for LO. Not a bad idea. It may be even better to try to identify a whole new word list that has a license open enough for LibO to use. Jon I agree, but from what I have heard on this list, coming up with another word list (one enough better to bother with) may not be easy. And if that is indeed the case, and someone wants to tell me how, I would volunteer to purge my personal dictionary of proper nouns and such and then send it in. Also I am sure many other end users would be willing to do the same. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
On 04/24/2011 01:36 PM, Robert Derman wrote: I have said this a number of times, and that at least the English version is sadly deficient in compound words, at least the one in OOo 3.11 which I am still using because I am reluctant to give up the personal dictionary to which I have added perhaps thousands of compound words. If the current release of LO is significantly better in this area I haven't heard of it. Nor do I know how to find and save/copy/move my personal dictionary. On a related matter, I believe that if a developer/programmer could put instructions on this list, I believe that a few users like me with greatly enhanced personal dictionaries could send them in as attachments and someone could use them to build a better word list that would make for a much better spell check function for LO. Not a bad idea. It may be even better to try to identify a whole new word list that has a license open enough for LibO to use. Jon -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Jon Hamkins wrote: On 04/22/2011 05:33 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: Hi *, On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Jon Hamkins wrote: On 04/06/2011 04:54 AM, toki wrote: There are roughly one billion words in the English language. You could have a LibO spell checker that contains each of those words. Actually, there are only about one million English words in English, and that's including the 500,000 or so scientific words. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JohnnyLing.shtml Note that a spell checker doesn't just need to list the words, but needs to know all forms of the words (plural form, genitive form, different times,) Well, the spell checker just needs a list of words -- grammar is something else. OED2 contained 290,000 entries with a total of 690,000 word forms. OED3 has somewhat more; a solid word list in an office suite should have somewhat fewer. You don't want to include obsolete words that have a close but different spelling from common words, for example. Jon I have said this a number of times, and that at least the English version is sadly deficient in compound words, at least the one in OOo 3.11 which I am still using because I am reluctant to give up the personal dictionary to which I have added perhaps thousands of compound words.If the current release of LO is significantly better in this area I haven't heard of it. Nor do I know how to find and save/copy/move my personal dictionary. On a related matter, I believe that if a developer/programmer could put instructions on this list, I believe that a few users like me with greatly enhanced personal dictionaries could send them in as attachments and someone could use them to build a better word list that would make for a much better spell check function for LO. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
On 04/22/2011 05:33 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: Hi *, On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Jon Hamkins wrote: On 04/06/2011 04:54 AM, toki wrote: There are roughly one billion words in the English language. You could have a LibO spell checker that contains each of those words. Actually, there are only about one million English words in English, and that's including the 500,000 or so scientific words. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JohnnyLing.shtml Note that a spell checker doesn't just need to list the words, but needs to know all forms of the words (plural form, genitive form, different times,) Well, the spell checker just needs a list of words -- grammar is something else. OED2 contained 290,000 entries with a total of 690,000 word forms. OED3 has somewhat more; a solid word list in an office suite should have somewhat fewer. You don't want to include obsolete words that have a close but different spelling from common words, for example. Jon -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 22/04/2011 03:40, Jon Hamkins wrote: >> There are roughly one billion words in the English language. You could > Actually, there are only about one million English words in English, and You are right. That billion words is the size of the corpus that is used, not the number of words in it. And to know which spelling is correct, a grammar checker rather than a spell checker probably is needed. jonathon - -- If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting. If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth requesting. DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNso6GAAoJEERA7YuLpVrV7LoH/33WLAeBnwJT7RBkO7ybKO9L nlDExrcecrD1+7waZrzJOZFBeR2lIRcMhHGuEp0SAGaxyfX0UmhrjXFhsPz9JFEk ISSsnupQOgGDS/B1iT5UgauZ61N9I6alwvGPV40PSKq7SibmnpXqKfpefMJJ2+ig YgJQ7AcsB94ZbIbyn0uHjJdZV3LhoMz8YCPH5Un31FZY2JBua198yVx6+nrRtrMO 7AX4JJVXqQU50zzPR97jMqhCd9SDBWfOKsArruwE0O4wQNgYKIhJzasnfULR8Sa+ IJUccnhVhiGDOPbqxU0OqsdI20J5k2ppDuDlpYyUJUh1T2EtR0IWVkyMQwLD7t4= =m/oO -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Hi *, On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 5:40 AM, Jon Hamkins wrote: > On 04/06/2011 04:54 AM, toki wrote: > >> There are roughly one billion words in the English language. You could >> have a LibO spell checker that contains each of those words. > > Actually, there are only about one million English words in English, and > that's including the 500,000 or so scientific words. > > http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JohnnyLing.shtml Note that a spell checker doesn't just need to list the words, but needs to know all forms of the words (plural form, genitive form, different times,) And of course rarely it is also wiser to not accept a word if it is likely that it was not the intended one (but then this overlaps with the functionality of a grammar checker) ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Is there anything folks outside of Europe can do to assist? Let us know. Jon (in U.S.) On 04/08/2011 07:04 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Hello James, First of all I have to insist on the importance of writing to your MEP, it actually has more weight than many people believe. When I'm not working on the Document Foundation, I run a small consultancy with activities in european public policies. In other words, I'm trying to say that there are specific ways to act and that TDF is far from being the only choice. This being said, if all it takes is a petition from FSFE and others, we could associate ourselves with that with pleasure and enthusiasm. One last comment however: if you guys feel disappointed that the European Commission goes against the very own principles it has pushed forward, it's important to realize that the EC is very permeable to external influences, especially influences that come with large financial incentives or threats. But that's a broader topic than the one we're discussing here :-) Best, Charles. 2011/4/7 James Wilde On Apr 5, 2011, at 14:56 , Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Laszlo, It is not up to TDF to do something, but we have to act, each of us, individually and collectively to make sure we get results . Pardon me, Charles, but if TDF don't, who will? Who should be questioning the policy of the EC in not taking in alternatives or even considering the viability of alternatives? Who is going to challenge the legality of these decisions? Even if 10%, 50% or even 100% of the people subscribed to this list all emailed their euro-MP, how much effect would that have? But if two or three of the steering committee were to approach the authorities, including whatever organ within the EU it is that oversees fair play and the following of EU policies, then we individuals could send details of that approach to our local newspapers and television companies with some hope of being taken seriously. In the US there is apparently a marketing list. Isn't there one in the EU or one - or more - member countries? //James Le Tue, 5 Apr 2011 12:22:24 +0200 (CEST), Kürti László a écrit : Charles, I was asking the European members personally! to take something against it. We here in Hungary spent the last 5 years with lobbying for only to let the FLOSS into the public sector. Earlier it was not possible. We had some positive results 'cause we could refer the EU policies. But if the EC don't give ...t what can I say? I tell you, nothing! And really all the national governments will be more than happy to find an excuse not to do anything for interoperability, for standardization and for freedom. If we?, you? (TDF) have the will and members stand behind this case than we have a chance. Yes we must act an intelligent way but first of all we must act. Laszlo - Original Message - From: "Charles-H. Schulz" To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 11:16:58 AM Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences,Please make your action today against it. Hello Laszlo, Le Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:42:10 +0200 (CEST), Kürti László a écrit : Hi All, Sorry for this off topic but this is serious http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9215419/EC_enters_talks_with_Microsoft_for_new_licenses?taxonomyName=IT+in+Government&taxonomyId=13 If this come true than we (LibreOffice an other FLOSS products) will be down and out, buried by dust for ever, governments do not need better excuse than this. Please make your action today: blog about, send a mail to your member of EP, tell the local media I would not be as pessimistic as you are, the EC is unfortunately a MS shop, but there is certainly ground to protest; I'd suggest you use other, more focused initiatives than this list to take action: http://interopwikiproject.com/public-procurement:ec-pushes-ahead-with-windows-7-migration Best, Charles. Thx Laszlo -- Kürti László Open SKM Agency Kft. 1024 Budapest Kút u. 5 www.openskm.com kurti.las...@openskm.com (+36-1)-788-6556 -- Charles-H. Schulz Membre du Comité exécutif The Document Foundation. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Jon -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more:
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
On 04/06/2011 04:54 AM, toki wrote: There are roughly one billion words in the English language. You could have a LibO spell checker that contains each of those words. Actually, there are only about one million English words in English, and that's including the 500,000 or so scientific words. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/JohnnyLing.shtml Jon -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Hello James, First of all I have to insist on the importance of writing to your MEP, it actually has more weight than many people believe. When I'm not working on the Document Foundation, I run a small consultancy with activities in european public policies. In other words, I'm trying to say that there are specific ways to act and that TDF is far from being the only choice. This being said, if all it takes is a petition from FSFE and others, we could associate ourselves with that with pleasure and enthusiasm. One last comment however: if you guys feel disappointed that the European Commission goes against the very own principles it has pushed forward, it's important to realize that the EC is very permeable to external influences, especially influences that come with large financial incentives or threats. But that's a broader topic than the one we're discussing here :-) Best, Charles. 2011/4/7 James Wilde > > On Apr 5, 2011, at 14:56 , Charles-H. Schulz wrote: > > > Laszlo, > > > > It is not up to TDF to do something, but we have to act, each of us, > > individually and collectively to make sure we get results . > > > > > Pardon me, Charles, but if TDF don't, who will? Who should be questioning > the policy of the EC in not taking in alternatives or even considering the > viability of alternatives? Who is going to challenge the legality of these > decisions? > > Even if 10%, 50% or even 100% of the people subscribed to this list all > emailed their euro-MP, how much effect would that have? But if two or three > of the steering committee were to approach the authorities, including > whatever organ within the EU it is that oversees fair play and the following > of EU policies, then we individuals could send details of that approach to > our local newspapers and television companies with some hope of being taken > seriously. > > In the US there is apparently a marketing list. Isn't there one in the EU > or one - or more - member countries? > > //James > > > > > Le Tue, 5 Apr 2011 12:22:24 +0200 (CEST), > > Kürti László a écrit : > > > >> Charles, > >> > >> I was asking the European members personally! to take something > >> against it. We here in Hungary spent the last 5 years with lobbying > >> for only to let the FLOSS into the public sector. Earlier it was not > >> possible. We had some positive results 'cause we could refer the EU > >> policies. But if the EC don't give ...t what can I say? I tell you, > >> nothing! And really all the national governments will be more than > >> happy to find an excuse not to do anything for interoperability, for > >> standardization and for freedom. > >> > >> > >> If we?, you? (TDF) have the will and members stand behind this case > >> than we have a chance. > >> > >> Yes we must act an intelligent way but first of all we must act. > >> > >> Laszlo > >> > >> - Original Message - > >> From: "Charles-H. Schulz" > >> To: discuss@documentfoundation.org > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 11:16:58 AM > >> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS > >> licences,Please make your action today against it. > >> > >> Hello Laszlo, > >> > >> > >> Le Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:42:10 +0200 (CEST), > >> Kürti László a écrit : > >> > >>> Hi All, > >>> > >>> Sorry for this off topic but this is serious > >>> > http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9215419/EC_enters_talks_with_Microsoft_for_new_licenses?taxonomyName=IT+in+Government&taxonomyId=13 > >>> > >>> If this come true than we (LibreOffice an other FLOSS products) will > >>> be down and out, buried by dust for ever, governments do not need > >>> better excuse than this. > >>> > >>> Please make your action today: > >>> blog about, send a mail to your member of EP, tell the local media > >> > >> > >> I would not be as pessimistic as you are, the EC is unfortunately a > >> MS shop, but there is certainly ground to protest; I'd suggest you use > >> other, more focused initiatives than this list to take action: > >> > http://interopwikiproject.com/public-procurement:ec-pushes-ahead-with-windows-7-migration > >> > >> Best, > >> Charles. > >> > >>> > >>> Thx > >>> Laszlo > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Kürti László > >>> Open
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
>> Laszlo, >> >> It is not up to TDF to do something, but we have to act, each of us, >> individually and collectively to make sure we get results . >> >> > Even if 10%, 50% or even 100% of the people subscribed to this list all > emailed their euro-MP, how much effect would that have? But if two or three > of the steering committee were to approach the authorities, including > whatever organ within the EU it is that oversees fair play and the following > of EU policies, then we individuals could send details of that approach to > our > local newspapers and television companies with some hope of being taken > seriously. > In the US there is apparently a marketing list. Isn't there one in the EU or > one - or more - member countries? > //James James, many thanks for your thoughts, exactly this is what I was asking for. At this moment we (Open SKM & FSF Hungary & FSF Europe) working on campaign site. So please all of you act, do something for the transparent EC procurement. As a person - Write a protest mail for directly to the EC - Write a protest mail for your Member of European Parliament - Write a protest mail for your local MP - Go to the petition site and sign it As an Istitution - Write a protest mail for directly to the EC - Write a protest mail for your Member of European Parliament - Write a protest mail for your local MP - Write a protest mail for your local media - Go to the petition site and sign it > > Le Tue, 5 Apr 2011 12:22:24 +0200 (CEST), > Kürti László a écrit : > >> Charles, >> >> I was asking the European members personally! to take something >> against it. We here in Hungary spent the last 5 years with lobbying >> for only to let the FLOSS into the public sector. Earlier it was not >> possible. We had some positive results 'cause we could refer the EU >> policies. But if the EC don't give ...t what can I say? I tell you, >> nothing! And really all the national governments will be more than >> happy to find an excuse not to do anything for interoperability, for >> standardization and for freedom. >> >> >> If we?, you? (TDF) have the will and members stand behind this case >> than we have a chance. >> >> Yes we must act an intelligent way but first of all we must act. >> >> Laszlo >> >> - Original Message ----- >> From: "Charles-H. Schulz" >> To: discuss@documentfoundation.org >> Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 11:16:58 AM >> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS >> licences,Please make your action today against it. >> >> Hello Laszlo, >> >> >> Le Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:42:10 +0200 (CEST), >> Kürti László a écrit : >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Sorry for this off topic but this is serious >>> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9215419/EC_enters_talks_with_Microsoft_for_new_licenses?taxonomyName=IT+in+Government&taxonomyId=13 >>> >>> If this come true than we (LibreOffice an other FLOSS products) will >>> be down and out, buried by dust for ever, governments do not need >>> better excuse than this. >>> >>> Please make your action today: >>> blog about, send a mail to your member of EP, tell the local media >> >> >> I would not be as pessimistic as you are, the EC is unfortunately a >> MS shop, but there is certainly ground to protest; I'd suggest you use >> other, more focused initiatives than this list to take action: >> http://interopwikiproject.com/public-procurement:ec-pushes-ahead-with-windows-7-migration >> >> Best, >> Charles. >> >>> >>> Thx >>> Laszlo >>> >>> -- >>> Kürti László >>> Open SKM Agency Kft. >>> 1024 Budapest Kút u. 5 >>> www.openskm.com >>> kurti.las...@openskm.com >>> (+36-1)-788-6556 >>> >>> >> >> > > > > -- > Charles-H. Schulz > Membre du Comité exécutif > The Document Foundation. > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
On Apr 5, 2011, at 14:56 , Charles-H. Schulz wrote: > Laszlo, > > It is not up to TDF to do something, but we have to act, each of us, > individually and collectively to make sure we get results . > > Pardon me, Charles, but if TDF don't, who will? Who should be questioning the policy of the EC in not taking in alternatives or even considering the viability of alternatives? Who is going to challenge the legality of these decisions? Even if 10%, 50% or even 100% of the people subscribed to this list all emailed their euro-MP, how much effect would that have? But if two or three of the steering committee were to approach the authorities, including whatever organ within the EU it is that oversees fair play and the following of EU policies, then we individuals could send details of that approach to our local newspapers and television companies with some hope of being taken seriously. In the US there is apparently a marketing list. Isn't there one in the EU or one - or more - member countries? //James > > Le Tue, 5 Apr 2011 12:22:24 +0200 (CEST), > Kürti László a écrit : > >> Charles, >> >> I was asking the European members personally! to take something >> against it. We here in Hungary spent the last 5 years with lobbying >> for only to let the FLOSS into the public sector. Earlier it was not >> possible. We had some positive results 'cause we could refer the EU >> policies. But if the EC don't give ...t what can I say? I tell you, >> nothing! And really all the national governments will be more than >> happy to find an excuse not to do anything for interoperability, for >> standardization and for freedom. >> >> >> If we?, you? (TDF) have the will and members stand behind this case >> than we have a chance. >> >> Yes we must act an intelligent way but first of all we must act. >> >> Laszlo >> >> - Original Message ----- >> From: "Charles-H. Schulz" >> To: discuss@documentfoundation.org >> Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 11:16:58 AM >> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS >> licences,Please make your action today against it. >> >> Hello Laszlo, >> >> >> Le Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:42:10 +0200 (CEST), >> Kürti László a écrit : >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Sorry for this off topic but this is serious >>> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9215419/EC_enters_talks_with_Microsoft_for_new_licenses?taxonomyName=IT+in+Government&taxonomyId=13 >>> >>> If this come true than we (LibreOffice an other FLOSS products) will >>> be down and out, buried by dust for ever, governments do not need >>> better excuse than this. >>> >>> Please make your action today: >>> blog about, send a mail to your member of EP, tell the local media >> >> >> I would not be as pessimistic as you are, the EC is unfortunately a >> MS shop, but there is certainly ground to protest; I'd suggest you use >> other, more focused initiatives than this list to take action: >> http://interopwikiproject.com/public-procurement:ec-pushes-ahead-with-windows-7-migration >> >> Best, >> Charles. >> >>> >>> Thx >>> Laszlo >>> >>> -- >>> Kürti László >>> Open SKM Agency Kft. >>> 1024 Budapest Kút u. 5 >>> www.openskm.com >>> kurti.las...@openskm.com >>> (+36-1)-788-6556 >>> >>> >> >> > > > > -- > Charles-H. Schulz > Membre du Comité exécutif > The Document Foundation. > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Steve, Indeed it is good to talk - that's why we're here. And I'm glad you did because now I am much clearer on what you mean (and to some extent sympathise). Like your own users, I have written format filters that use Microsoft Office Word documents and, probably like your own developers, put a lot of damned hard work into finding out what was actually in the file structure I would be filtering from. And you are quite right about it - those filters will not work with an ODF document. The snag - and reason - is that ODF documents are not the same internal structure as DOC documents are. Then again, neither are DOCX documents and your users will hit the same problems with those. What you seem to be up against is the proprietary internal structure of Microsoft files. For the most part, you should find that saving the documents in the Microsoft format appropriate to your filters will do the trick, but even then you are likely to find some differences. That really is not something we can do much about without hiring Microsoft to make sure they are fixed - and that simply will not happen, even if we wanted it to. On 05/04/2011 22:54, Steve Edmonds wrote: > Hi Mark. > Possibly the environment that one works in has a significant result on > the problems encountered, and hence why it is hard to debug all problems > because they don't always arise until the environment changes. > I encounter little problem with spread sheets or power point, but mostly > with docs. May be that is the nature of the people I need to interreact > with and the way they use MO. Their pattern of use with MO creates > formats that the filter developers have not encountered and hence my > problems. > It is good to have the discussion and bring out the issues so that they > can be assessed and addressed (one way or another). > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05/04/2011 21:23, Robert Derman wrote: > My prime example, the word list in the spell checker is PATHETIC!!! It is fairly easy to toss out the built in spell checker, and replace it with something that is more suitable for your organization's usage. > The only alternative is to consider the spell checker USELESS, and to just permanently turn it off. Earlier today I received a document that is an outline of some work to be done. Whilst the document is not legally binding, it is the legal foundation of a potential contract. However, there were at least half a dozen words in it, that their spell checker did not flag as incorrect, but whose meaning would radically change the work I'd be doing. Until I queried them about those phrases, they hadn't realized that what the document said, and what they meant were radically different things. The reason they didn't realize that, was that nobody had bothered to manually spell check the document. They automatically accepted the corrections their spell checker made, without considering that the spell checker was offering up words that were almost 180 degrees in meaning, to the intended word. My point: All spell checkers are useless, unless one is also manually checking both the spelling and the grammar of the document. > Naturally we cannot purchase a word list to use, With LibO and OOo your options are: * Create your own word list; * Purchase a word list from a vendor; * Use a word list that is distributed gratis; There are places other than the OOo and LibO website that offer dictionaries, extensions, and other things for OOo and LibO. > because anything sold would be copyrighted and therefore useless to us. Assuming that a word list can be copyrighted, which is a debatable issue, at least under US Copyright law, why would it being sold preclude your organization from using it? > understand there is no Open Source or other non copyright word list that is > sufficiently better than what we are now using to be worth bothering with. There are roughly one billion words in the English language. You could have a LibO spell checker that contains each of those words. However, you probably would end up being in the same position as you currently are in, because the word in the document is correctly spelled, but is not the word with the meaning that was intended. A word list that contains only the thousand or so most commonly misspelled words in your organization, will probably catch more than 99% of the spelling errors that are made. Require all employees to manually spell check and grammar check all content that is sent outside the organization. (They should be doing that anyway, but since spell checkers seem to be an issue) > I think if someone could tell some of us end users where to find our own word lists that we have had to add hundreds or thousands of words to, turn them into email attachments, and send them to LO, Create and distribute that wordlist for internal usage. Once it meets your organization's needs, you can distribute it to third parties. Or even offer it up as a LibO extension. jonathon - -- If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting. If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth requesting. DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNnFRyAAoJEERA7YuLpVrVu1MH/2EFe7hmRC3V436Ifgcd4FGn LpSkRVRLwbX7VQzHJc5OenafSN5aeSFb+JIaoBd4EDbOhgGbSPCor7hsDPxb/YLh GsQ8CEHCtnX4343OOTC8oaMNEew/TzW4t7VoznKS9biMEvfKAmi43XKtrHsOl3zz OVxu/0Yo+ilEZG2KEHPrxJq7hiN2OM4UuLIqPT6OnvR5UYcg0hTojXf9j8xhzQn/ NZUMqAN7NgqpoCcMwW6vfaehLUeWb9CyY1EqtxL1SsmwlXoJyYd/z7NcsVx7cQtF L4dLkrrfyiAK7COLn5zYO1yOo5Oeb21S5/JrUIiTR7ROCmE4PCRW3GyyIRxcwuU= =Mqy9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
MO? What about iWork? How Come our document formats don't work with them. Sent from my iPhone On 06/04/2011, at 9:23 PM, toki wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 05/04/2011 14:56, Mike Hall wrote: >> long documents, I personally came across only 2 instances of genuine MSO >> bugs. > > I guess it is a feature that when I used MSO 2010 with Win7, the mean > time till seeing the BSOD was under 100 seconds. I guess it is a feature > that with MSO97 on Win2K mean time to BSOD was just on 60 minutes. > >> at least it didn't to me, nor did I hear complaints of that kind from > > How much of that was because they were so used to MSO trashing their > documents, that they did not know that software could be bug free. > And that it is not normal to have to spend hours fixing documents > because the program that created the document is incompatible with the > program that created the document? > >> that OOo/LibO has a product offering of adequate quality to be >> cost-effective in a high-cost labour economy. > > If only due to the mean time to BSOD, MSO is equally, if not more > inadequate that LibO or OOo is. > >> The support costs are just far too high. > >> to MSO, by which I primarily mean an absence of bugs. > > Riddle me this. Why is the same bug that was in Word 1.0, found in MSO > 2010? That shows a clear commitment to ignoring bug reports. > > Even more bizarre, is that Word allegedly had at least one major > rewrite, as well as being ported from being an 8 bit program to bing a > 64 bit program. > > jonathon > - -- > If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting. > > If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth > requesting. > > DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw. > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > > iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNnEz4AAoJEERA7YuLpVrVGZIIANtJOnPxr0lOaAzNseZEbvgq > zCP1VPnkvAJYwYJQgqONxLstXGGcGPs+Y8jmzvpOvCIBsXHi56z10zYFu2C7vELf > xm6LCrAs28LRZnkokKaZtlq+9vbvbWqpw12PEZeElqgEMaPXTAsAuYQI+BsM7Cy5 > VlR0C+p9iypCODK6aNPQGG7YvfZiyN3f6dmYdpSOy2jQ2yoZAQz+yOflnCBhkQZy > Y4CCVziDugXQ5JSmbt0Hwv8NxgdYXgLiwLbSd/dM7eoS0oEkmVwzAKhGY8oVcymK > zn+qoKFV3nVOm29Do15ujvX59Zws45T/Vsvdxc7L6Gf2d5XqB0coeqCzYo14Z48= > =1+vJ > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 05/04/2011 14:56, Mike Hall wrote: > long documents, I personally came across only 2 instances of genuine MSO bugs. I guess it is a feature that when I used MSO 2010 with Win7, the mean time till seeing the BSOD was under 100 seconds. I guess it is a feature that with MSO97 on Win2K mean time to BSOD was just on 60 minutes. > at least it didn't to me, nor did I hear complaints of that kind from How much of that was because they were so used to MSO trashing their documents, that they did not know that software could be bug free. And that it is not normal to have to spend hours fixing documents because the program that created the document is incompatible with the program that created the document? > that OOo/LibO has a product offering of adequate quality to be > cost-effective in a high-cost labour economy. If only due to the mean time to BSOD, MSO is equally, if not more inadequate that LibO or OOo is. >The support costs are just far too high. > to MSO, by which I primarily mean an absence of bugs. Riddle me this. Why is the same bug that was in Word 1.0, found in MSO 2010? That shows a clear commitment to ignoring bug reports. Even more bizarre, is that Word allegedly had at least one major rewrite, as well as being ported from being an 8 bit program to bing a 64 bit program. jonathon - -- If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting. If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth requesting. DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNnEz4AAoJEERA7YuLpVrVGZIIANtJOnPxr0lOaAzNseZEbvgq zCP1VPnkvAJYwYJQgqONxLstXGGcGPs+Y8jmzvpOvCIBsXHi56z10zYFu2C7vELf xm6LCrAs28LRZnkokKaZtlq+9vbvbWqpw12PEZeElqgEMaPXTAsAuYQI+BsM7Cy5 VlR0C+p9iypCODK6aNPQGG7YvfZiyN3f6dmYdpSOy2jQ2yoZAQz+yOflnCBhkQZy Y4CCVziDugXQ5JSmbt0Hwv8NxgdYXgLiwLbSd/dM7eoS0oEkmVwzAKhGY8oVcymK zn+qoKFV3nVOm29Do15ujvX59Zws45T/Vsvdxc7L6Gf2d5XqB0coeqCzYo14Z48= =1+vJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
lly retreat on its silly ideas and there are, to all >>> intents and purposes, almost bug free MSO versions so far as the >>> vast majority of end users are concerned. This isn't the case with >>> OOo/LibO - there has never been a release of such a quality that >>> support costs could be contained at a realistic level. I wish there >>> were and I can fully understand why this community would be very >>> inclined to argue black is white here. Further, it's pretty >>> frustrating to report bugs and find that they aren't fixed within a >>> reasonable period. I don't think you would deny that that is a >>> fairly common experience and complaint from OOo/LibO users. I see >>> that on many bug reports. >>> >>> My perception and experience of the choice of application software >>> in large organisation is that it is much more rational and >>> hard-headed than you imply. The main cost is not the licence, for >>> which in any case large organisations generally pay very little per >>> desktop. It's user support that is costly, ie overall cost of >>> ownership. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> On 05/04/2011 16:52, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: >>> >>>> Hello Mike >>>> (since we're all top posting in this thread)... >>>> >>>> To claim that MS Office is devoid of bugs is somewhat extravagant. >>>> There have been several versions of MS Office that were plagued with >>>> bugs; people complained but the products continued their roll-out. I >>>> don't think MSOffice dominance can be attributed to a better quality >>>> than OOo/LibO or any other contender, but to a specific framing of >>>> the market environment better known as a monopoly. As someone who has >>>> spent over 10 years analyzing competition in IT I can tell you most >>>> governments are prone to external pressure and lobbying. Choice of one >>>> office suite over another is decided almost never on quality, but on >>>> price, peer-pressure, business advantage, personal ties and favours, >>>> and more often than not, laziness and fear of the unknown. >>>> >>>> This being said, LibreOffice does have bugs -just like any other >>>> software- and we need to tackle them, so let me invite everyone >>>> here to >>>> report bugs on our bug tracker, and if possible to propose a fix; >>>> we'll deal with more bugs better and faster :-) >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Charles. >>>> >>>> >>>> Le Tue, 05 Apr 2011 15:56:11 +0100, >>>> Mike Hall a écrit : >>>> >>>> >>>>> Laszlo, >>>>> I worked for perhaps 15 years with various versions of MSO as both a >>>>> power user and as a senior manager with responsibility, inter alia, >>>>> for MSO support. I met all the senior international people at the >>>>> time, from MS and many other suppliers. During that time, whether >>>>> with short or long documents, I personally came across only 2 >>>>> instances of genuine MSO bugs. >>>>> >>>>> Since retirement 16 years or so ago, I have been almost exclusively >>>>> using and promoting OOo/LibO. I know what some of the technical >>>>> advantages are, and I appreciate them. However, each time I start a >>>>> major new activity or project, I run into a major deficiency or bug >>>>> which has typically taken me a day or more's work to understand, >>>>> write bug reports and work out how to get round. Most of those bugs >>>>> are still unfixed. This kind of 'wasted' effort simply does not occur >>>>> with MSO, or at least it didn't to me, nor did I hear complaints of >>>>> that kind from the thousands of end users I was to some degree >>>>> responsible for internationally. >>>>> >>>>> In my professional opinion and with the maximum regret, I do not >>>>> believe that OOo/LibO has a product offering of adequate quality to >>>>> be cost-effective in a high-cost labour economy. The support costs >>>>> are just far too high. Thus, it is my considered though painful >>>>> conclusion that the majority of IT managers in those economies would >>>>> correctly judge MSO to be the better option. As I said, I wish it >>>>> were different,
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
On 2011-04-06 07:19, Ercole Carpanetto wrote: > On 5 April 2011 21:08, Steve Edmonds wrote: > >> All. >> I tend to agree with Mike on many aspects. >> We use 12 instances of LO in our business and I support more privately. >> I inter-react with an educational institution and others predominantly MO, >> our business is mainly LO. >> >> For a corporation or large entity to adopt LO it must be able to transfer MO >> docs well. >> I find that probably 90% of MO docs I receive don't open in LO without need >> of reformatting, >> > Before our switch we have the same problems with MO (we had a mixed > enviroment with MO 2003 and a couple of MO XP) receiving files with a > range from office 97 to 2007. I've found a better formatting aderence > now with libreoffice (but maybe is due to the type of documents we > use). > > >> a corporation could not tolerate this. I found that LO does >> not time save (auto backup) .docs, a corporation would not tolerate that. >> >> > LO do autosave, only it do it in a slight different way: I use OOO > (and LO now) since version the first version, and even if it crashes > I've never loose a single document. > > While editing .doc files I have not found any of them to have been auto saved and recoverable. Same with OOO. .odt files have been autosaved, but the autosaving deletes images from my odt files. So for me LO does not have an autosave feature. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Mike Hall wrote: Charles, I think an appreciation of this point is absolutely crucial to a successful product, which is why I bang on about it. And I'm only faithfully recording my own experience. Unfortunately there is a difference in quality, which implicitly you seem to recognise. Yes, it's true that there have been several poor MSO releases, but in a large organisation those are not normally deployed on the corporate desktop until the problems are fixed. MS does eventually retreat on its silly ideas and there are, to all intents and purposes, almost bug free MSO versions so far as the vast majority of end users are concerned. This isn't the case with OOo/LibO - there has never been a release of such a quality that support costs could be contained at a realistic level. I wish there were and I can fully understand why this community would be very inclined to argue black is white here. Further, it's pretty frustrating to report bugs and find that they aren't fixed within a reasonable period. I don't think you would deny that that is a fairly common experience and complaint from OOo/LibO users. I see that on many bug reports. My perception and experience of the choice of application software in large organisation is that it is much more rational and hard-headed than you imply. The main cost is not the licence, for which in any case large organisations generally pay very little per desktop. It's user support that is costly, ie overall cost of ownership. Mike I am one of the multitude of end users of Writer who hope that it can become something that we can all take pride in because we all helped in whatever way to make it what it is. Over the years I have used MS Word, and OOo, I simply don't ever use spreadsheets, presentation programs or any other part of MS Office or OOo except for the word processors. That said, I find MS Word to be unstable for long documents. Writer does a better job, but it has some severe shortcomings that would be very easy to fix if anyone would bother. My prime example, the word list in the spell checker is PATHETIC!!! There is almost a total lack of compound words in it, and I have had to add well over a thousand of them in order to get the spell checker to operate at an acceptable speed. The only alternative is to consider the spell checker USELESS, and to just permanently turn it off. No business would ever consider that to be an acceptable alternative, and would instead consider the price for a copy of Microsoft Word a bargain compared to the hassle of trying to use a word processor with a nearly useless spelling checker. Naturally we cannot purchase a word list to use, because anything sold would be copyrighted and therefore useless to us. Likewise, as I understand there is no Open Source or other non copyright word list that is sufficiently better than what we are now using to be worth bothering with. Therefore we must create our own. I don't think that most of the work of doing this would require the skills of a programmer or software developer. I think if someone could tell some of us end users where to find our own word lists that we have had to add hundreds or thousands of words to, turn them into email attachments, and send them to LO, they could be combined, stripped of unwanted proper nouns and such, and used to create a very good and complete word list to incorporate into LO Writer. And of course once we have such a word list, every release from that time on will have a very good spell checker. I am a computer hardware expert, but not a software expert, at least no more than most end users, but perhaps this is something where someone like me might just be able to help. Robert Derman -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
sations generally pay very little per >> desktop. It's user support that is costly, ie overall cost of >> ownership. >> >> Mike >> >> On 05/04/2011 16:52, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: >>> Hello Mike >>> (since we're all top posting in this thread)... >>> >>> To claim that MS Office is devoid of bugs is somewhat extravagant. >>> There have been several versions of MS Office that were plagued with >>> bugs; people complained but the products continued their roll-out. I >>> don't think MSOffice dominance can be attributed to a better quality >>> than OOo/LibO or any other contender, but to a specific framing of >>> the market environment better known as a monopoly. As someone who has >>> spent over 10 years analyzing competition in IT I can tell you most >>> governments are prone to external pressure and lobbying. Choice of one >>> office suite over another is decided almost never on quality, but on >>> price, peer-pressure, business advantage, personal ties and favours, >>> and more often than not, laziness and fear of the unknown. >>> >>> This being said, LibreOffice does have bugs -just like any other >>> software- and we need to tackle them, so let me invite everyone >>> here to >>> report bugs on our bug tracker, and if possible to propose a fix; >>> we'll deal with more bugs better and faster :-) >>> >>> Best, >>> Charles. >>> >>> >>> Le Tue, 05 Apr 2011 15:56:11 +0100, >>> Mike Hall a écrit : >>> >>>> Laszlo, >>>> I worked for perhaps 15 years with various versions of MSO as both a >>>> power user and as a senior manager with responsibility, inter alia, >>>> for MSO support. I met all the senior international people at the >>>> time, from MS and many other suppliers. During that time, whether >>>> with short or long documents, I personally came across only 2 >>>> instances of genuine MSO bugs. >>>> >>>> Since retirement 16 years or so ago, I have been almost exclusively >>>> using and promoting OOo/LibO. I know what some of the technical >>>> advantages are, and I appreciate them. However, each time I start a >>>> major new activity or project, I run into a major deficiency or bug >>>> which has typically taken me a day or more's work to understand, >>>> write bug reports and work out how to get round. Most of those bugs >>>> are still unfixed. This kind of 'wasted' effort simply does not occur >>>> with MSO, or at least it didn't to me, nor did I hear complaints of >>>> that kind from the thousands of end users I was to some degree >>>> responsible for internationally. >>>> >>>> In my professional opinion and with the maximum regret, I do not >>>> believe that OOo/LibO has a product offering of adequate quality to >>>> be cost-effective in a high-cost labour economy. The support costs >>>> are just far too high. Thus, it is my considered though painful >>>> conclusion that the majority of IT managers in those economies would >>>> correctly judge MSO to be the better option. As I said, I wish it >>>> were different, but it is not. We can lobby and protest as much as we >>>> like, but in my opinion there is absolutely no chance of extensive >>>> corporate or governmental adoption in Western economies until the >>>> product is of comparable quality to MSO, by which I primarily mean an >>>> absence of bugs. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> On 05/04/2011 12:37, Kürti László wrote: >>>>> Mike, >>>>> Have you ever tried to work with MS office? Have you ever made a >>>>> doc longer than 10 pages? How many times you had to reedit those MS >>>>> docs? Just about every time you opened it in a different PC. >>>>> >>>>> Pls don't get me wrong, but MS office works just as OO.o or LibO. >>>>> And this is not the case, but please let yourself off the hook of >>>>> MS FUDs. :) >>>>> >>>>> Laszlo >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - Original Message - >>>>> From: "Mike Hall" >>>>> To: discuss@documentfoundation.org >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 1:21:03 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS >>>>> licences,Please make your action today against it. >>>>> >>>>> On 05/04/2011 12:11, Kürti László wrote: >>>>>> Even with docx, xlsx format could be read and written by OO.o or >>>>>> LibO (or at least a workaround can be find). >>>>> Laslo, >>>>> Don't get me wrong, I entirely agree with all your sentiments. >>>>> Unfortunately, in practice the description of the situation I gave >>>>> will dominate. The quote from your email above seems to confirm >>>>> that even your company has experienced significant end user support >>>>> issues. I just wish it were different. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
On 5 April 2011 21:08, Steve Edmonds wrote: > All. > I tend to agree with Mike on many aspects. > We use 12 instances of LO in our business and I support more privately. > I inter-react with an educational institution and others predominantly MO, > our business is mainly LO. > > For a corporation or large entity to adopt LO it must be able to transfer MO > docs well. > I find that probably 90% of MO docs I receive don't open in LO without need > of reformatting, Before our switch we have the same problems with MO (we had a mixed enviroment with MO 2003 and a couple of MO XP) receiving files with a range from office 97 to 2007. I've found a better formatting aderence now with libreoffice (but maybe is due to the type of documents we use). > a corporation could not tolerate this. I found that LO does > not time save (auto backup) .docs, a corporation would not tolerate that. > LO do autosave, only it do it in a slight different way: I use OOO (and LO now) since version the first version, and even if it crashes I've never loose a single document. E. -- Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better. A.Camus -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
On 5 April 2011 20:17, M. Fioretti wrote: > On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 18:12:34 PM +0100, Mike Hall > (mike.h...@onepoyle.net) wrote: > >> The main cost is not the licence, for which in any case large >> organisations generally pay very little per desktop. It's user >> support that is costly, ie overall cost of ownership. > > Mike, > > I have a question about this that is very likely off topic, so feel > free to answer off list: in your experience, how much of these user > support costs for office suites depends on the fact that many people > use those office suites (MSO, LibO, OOo doesn't make any difference) > in a simply stupid way because they don't know better? > > Example #1: I had a boss years ago that center-justified and numbered > MANUALLY (redoing the numbers by hand when he added or removed > text...) paragraph titles in FrameMaker > > Example #2: one thing said at OOoCon 2010 about the Munich switch to > OOo was that they found LOTS of macros in official documents that > weren't ported or rewritten, NOT because it was too difficult, but > simply because they were USELESS period: people had just blindly > pasted them from other files or (I guess) inserted new ones just to > show off that they were "advanced users". > > Marco > My 2 cents I'm just working out a switchoff from MSO to LibreOffice (not a big switch: only15 seats). We are founding some lesser problems, mainly due to wrong formatting (but this bring problems even changing MSO version) on really complex documents with thousands of rows and pivot tables (I've just filed a bug related to datapilot), but nothing not solvable with some little workaround. The big troubles came with the slowness with big files (20-40MB of spreadsheets opens in 6-8 seconds with MSO and near 30 secs with libreoffice), but again this is not a problem (if you need to work on a file of 80-100.000 lines probably wait 25 seconds is not a problem) On the user side we don't find big troubles: they find the GUI really similar to MSO 2003. I can evaluate the time spent to test the various functions, do some fix and a little training to the users for fix the problems in less than 30 work hours: actually we make a save immediatly (1500€ vs 4000€ of licenses), but also build a road for a future of freedom (in 3-4 years we probably will have to switch to a new version of MSO and so spend again in licenses and probably have to reformat again the documents) E. -- Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better. A.Camus -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
ty to be cost-effective in a high-cost labour economy. The support costs are just far too high. Thus, it is my considered though painful conclusion that the majority of IT managers in those economies would correctly judge MSO to be the better option. As I said, I wish it were different, but it is not. We can lobby and protest as much as we like, but in my opinion there is absolutely no chance of extensive corporate or governmental adoption in Western economies until the product is of comparable quality to MSO, by which I primarily mean an absence of bugs. Mike On 05/04/2011 12:37, Kürti László wrote: Mike, Have you ever tried to work with MS office? Have you ever made a doc longer than 10 pages? How many times you had to reedit those MS docs? Just about every time you opened it in a different PC. Pls don't get me wrong, but MS office works just as OO.o or LibO. And this is not the case, but please let yourself off the hook of MS FUDs. :) Laszlo - Original Message - From: "Mike Hall" To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 1:21:03 PM Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences,Please make your action today against it. On 05/04/2011 12:11, Kürti László wrote: Even with docx, xlsx format could be read and written by OO.o or LibO (or at least a workaround can be find). Laslo, Don't get me wrong, I entirely agree with all your sentiments. Unfortunately, in practice the description of the situation I gave will dominate. The quote from your email above seems to confirm that even your company has experienced significant end user support issues. I just wish it were different. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
On 5 April 2011 15:56, Mike Hall wrote: > Laszlo, > I worked for perhaps 15 years with various versions of MSO as both a power > user and as a senior manager with responsibility, inter alia, for MSO > support. I met all the senior international people at the time, from MS and > many other suppliers. During that time, whether with short or long > documents, I personally came across only 2 instances of genuine MSO bugs. > > Since retirement 16 years or so ago, I have been almost exclusively using > and promoting OOo/LibO. I know what some of the technical advantages are, > and I appreciate them. However, each time I start a major new activity or > project, I run into a major deficiency or bug which has typically taken me a > day or more's work to understand, write bug reports and work out how to get > round. Most of those bugs are still unfixed. This kind of 'wasted' effort > simply does not occur with MSO, or at least it didn't to me, nor did I hear > complaints of that kind from the thousands of end users I was to some degree > responsible for internationally. > > In my professional opinion and with the maximum regret, I do not believe > that OOo/LibO has a product offering of adequate quality to be > cost-effective in a high-cost labour economy. The support costs are just far > too high. Thus, it is my considered though painful conclusion that the > majority of IT managers in those economies would correctly judge MSO to be > the better option. As I said, I wish it were different, but it is not. We > can lobby and protest as much as we like, but in my opinion there is > absolutely no chance of extensive corporate or governmental adoption in > Western economies until the product is of comparable quality to MSO, by > which I primarily mean an absence of bugs. > I rather think that depends on what the nature of the use is. Here, we use FOSS exclusively. We are a small business but heavily ICT dependent. I can't recall any circumstances where a bug in OOo has wasted a lot of time. In fact mostly we use Google's spreadsheet for sharing and put WP type stuff directly into web pages but I just published a book and previously a professional manual using OOo and Inkscape without any significant problems. I can see that some specialist power users will have more problems particularly if they are locked into VB and other MSO dependencies and I would have though that was a much more serious consideration than bugs. > Mike > > > On 05/04/2011 12:37, Kürti László wrote: > >> Mike, >> Have you ever tried to work with MS office? Have you ever made a doc >> longer than 10 pages? How many times you had to reedit those MS docs? Just >> about every time you opened it in a different PC. >> >> Pls don't get me wrong, but MS office works just as OO.o or LibO. >> And this is not the case, but please let yourself off the hook of MS FUDs. >> :) >> >> Laszlo >> >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "Mike Hall" >> To: discuss@documentfoundation.org >> Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 1:21:03 PM >> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, >> Please make your action today against it. >> >> On 05/04/2011 12:11, Kürti László wrote: >> >>> Even with docx, xlsx format could be read and written by OO.o or LibO (or >>> at least a workaround can be find). >>> >> Laslo, >> Don't get me wrong, I entirely agree with all your sentiments. >> Unfortunately, in practice the description of the situation I gave will >> dominate. The quote from your email above seems to confirm that even >> your company has experienced significant end user support issues. I just >> wish it were different. >> >> > > -- > Mike Hall > www.onepoyle.net > > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQ www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 18:12:34 PM +0100, Mike Hall (mike.h...@onepoyle.net) wrote: > The main cost is not the licence, for which in any case large > organisations generally pay very little per desktop. It's user > support that is costly, ie overall cost of ownership. Mike, I have a question about this that is very likely off topic, so feel free to answer off list: in your experience, how much of these user support costs for office suites depends on the fact that many people use those office suites (MSO, LibO, OOo doesn't make any difference) in a simply stupid way because they don't know better? Example #1: I had a boss years ago that center-justified and numbered MANUALLY (redoing the numbers by hand when he added or removed text...) paragraph titles in FrameMaker Example #2: one thing said at OOoCon 2010 about the Munich switch to OOo was that they found LOTS of macros in official documents that weren't ported or rewritten, NOT because it was too difficult, but simply because they were USELESS period: people had just blindly pasted them from other files or (I guess) inserted new ones just to show off that they were "advanced users". Marco -- Online Course for Digital Citizens, because your rights depend on how software is used *around* you: http://mfioretti.com/node/129 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Charles, I think an appreciation of this point is absolutely crucial to a successful product, which is why I bang on about it. And I'm only faithfully recording my own experience. Unfortunately there is a difference in quality, which implicitly you seem to recognise. Yes, it's true that there have been several poor MSO releases, but in a large organisation those are not normally deployed on the corporate desktop until the problems are fixed. MS does eventually retreat on its silly ideas and there are, to all intents and purposes, almost bug free MSO versions so far as the vast majority of end users are concerned. This isn't the case with OOo/LibO - there has never been a release of such a quality that support costs could be contained at a realistic level. I wish there were and I can fully understand why this community would be very inclined to argue black is white here. Further, it's pretty frustrating to report bugs and find that they aren't fixed within a reasonable period. I don't think you would deny that that is a fairly common experience and complaint from OOo/LibO users. I see that on many bug reports. My perception and experience of the choice of application software in large organisation is that it is much more rational and hard-headed than you imply. The main cost is not the licence, for which in any case large organisations generally pay very little per desktop. It's user support that is costly, ie overall cost of ownership. Mike On 05/04/2011 16:52, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Hello Mike (since we're all top posting in this thread)... To claim that MS Office is devoid of bugs is somewhat extravagant. There have been several versions of MS Office that were plagued with bugs; people complained but the products continued their roll-out. I don't think MSOffice dominance can be attributed to a better quality than OOo/LibO or any other contender, but to a specific framing of the market environment better known as a monopoly. As someone who has spent over 10 years analyzing competition in IT I can tell you most governments are prone to external pressure and lobbying. Choice of one office suite over another is decided almost never on quality, but on price, peer-pressure, business advantage, personal ties and favours, and more often than not, laziness and fear of the unknown. This being said, LibreOffice does have bugs -just like any other software- and we need to tackle them, so let me invite everyone here to report bugs on our bug tracker, and if possible to propose a fix; we'll deal with more bugs better and faster :-) Best, Charles. Le Tue, 05 Apr 2011 15:56:11 +0100, Mike Hall a écrit : Laszlo, I worked for perhaps 15 years with various versions of MSO as both a power user and as a senior manager with responsibility, inter alia, for MSO support. I met all the senior international people at the time, from MS and many other suppliers. During that time, whether with short or long documents, I personally came across only 2 instances of genuine MSO bugs. Since retirement 16 years or so ago, I have been almost exclusively using and promoting OOo/LibO. I know what some of the technical advantages are, and I appreciate them. However, each time I start a major new activity or project, I run into a major deficiency or bug which has typically taken me a day or more's work to understand, write bug reports and work out how to get round. Most of those bugs are still unfixed. This kind of 'wasted' effort simply does not occur with MSO, or at least it didn't to me, nor did I hear complaints of that kind from the thousands of end users I was to some degree responsible for internationally. In my professional opinion and with the maximum regret, I do not believe that OOo/LibO has a product offering of adequate quality to be cost-effective in a high-cost labour economy. The support costs are just far too high. Thus, it is my considered though painful conclusion that the majority of IT managers in those economies would correctly judge MSO to be the better option. As I said, I wish it were different, but it is not. We can lobby and protest as much as we like, but in my opinion there is absolutely no chance of extensive corporate or governmental adoption in Western economies until the product is of comparable quality to MSO, by which I primarily mean an absence of bugs. Mike On 05/04/2011 12:37, Kürti László wrote: Mike, Have you ever tried to work with MS office? Have you ever made a doc longer than 10 pages? How many times you had to reedit those MS docs? Just about every time you opened it in a different PC. Pls don't get me wrong, but MS office works just as OO.o or LibO. And this is not the case, but please let yourself off the hook of MS FUDs. :) Laszlo - Original Message - From: "Mike Hall" To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 1:21:03 PM Subject: Re:
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Hello Mike (since we're all top posting in this thread)... To claim that MS Office is devoid of bugs is somewhat extravagant. There have been several versions of MS Office that were plagued with bugs; people complained but the products continued their roll-out. I don't think MSOffice dominance can be attributed to a better quality than OOo/LibO or any other contender, but to a specific framing of the market environment better known as a monopoly. As someone who has spent over 10 years analyzing competition in IT I can tell you most governments are prone to external pressure and lobbying. Choice of one office suite over another is decided almost never on quality, but on price, peer-pressure, business advantage, personal ties and favours, and more often than not, laziness and fear of the unknown. This being said, LibreOffice does have bugs -just like any other software- and we need to tackle them, so let me invite everyone here to report bugs on our bug tracker, and if possible to propose a fix; we'll deal with more bugs better and faster :-) Best, Charles. Le Tue, 05 Apr 2011 15:56:11 +0100, Mike Hall a écrit : > Laszlo, > I worked for perhaps 15 years with various versions of MSO as both a > power user and as a senior manager with responsibility, inter alia, > for MSO support. I met all the senior international people at the > time, from MS and many other suppliers. During that time, whether > with short or long documents, I personally came across only 2 > instances of genuine MSO bugs. > > Since retirement 16 years or so ago, I have been almost exclusively > using and promoting OOo/LibO. I know what some of the technical > advantages are, and I appreciate them. However, each time I start a > major new activity or project, I run into a major deficiency or bug > which has typically taken me a day or more's work to understand, > write bug reports and work out how to get round. Most of those bugs > are still unfixed. This kind of 'wasted' effort simply does not occur > with MSO, or at least it didn't to me, nor did I hear complaints of > that kind from the thousands of end users I was to some degree > responsible for internationally. > > In my professional opinion and with the maximum regret, I do not > believe that OOo/LibO has a product offering of adequate quality to > be cost-effective in a high-cost labour economy. The support costs > are just far too high. Thus, it is my considered though painful > conclusion that the majority of IT managers in those economies would > correctly judge MSO to be the better option. As I said, I wish it > were different, but it is not. We can lobby and protest as much as we > like, but in my opinion there is absolutely no chance of extensive > corporate or governmental adoption in Western economies until the > product is of comparable quality to MSO, by which I primarily mean an > absence of bugs. > > Mike > > On 05/04/2011 12:37, Kürti László wrote: > > Mike, > > Have you ever tried to work with MS office? Have you ever made a > > doc longer than 10 pages? How many times you had to reedit those MS > > docs? Just about every time you opened it in a different PC. > > > > Pls don't get me wrong, but MS office works just as OO.o or LibO. > > And this is not the case, but please let yourself off the hook of > > MS FUDs. :) > > > > Laszlo > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Mike Hall" > > To: discuss@documentfoundation.org > > Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 1:21:03 PM > > Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS > > licences, Please make your action today against it. > > > > On 05/04/2011 12:11, Kürti László wrote: > >> Even with docx, xlsx format could be read and written by OO.o or > >> LibO (or at least a workaround can be find). > > Laslo, > > Don't get me wrong, I entirely agree with all your sentiments. > > Unfortunately, in practice the description of the situation I gave > > will dominate. The quote from your email above seems to confirm > > that even your company has experienced significant end user support > > issues. I just wish it were different. > > > > -- Charles-H. Schulz Membre du Comité exécutif The Document Foundation. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Laszlo, I worked for perhaps 15 years with various versions of MSO as both a power user and as a senior manager with responsibility, inter alia, for MSO support. I met all the senior international people at the time, from MS and many other suppliers. During that time, whether with short or long documents, I personally came across only 2 instances of genuine MSO bugs. Since retirement 16 years or so ago, I have been almost exclusively using and promoting OOo/LibO. I know what some of the technical advantages are, and I appreciate them. However, each time I start a major new activity or project, I run into a major deficiency or bug which has typically taken me a day or more's work to understand, write bug reports and work out how to get round. Most of those bugs are still unfixed. This kind of 'wasted' effort simply does not occur with MSO, or at least it didn't to me, nor did I hear complaints of that kind from the thousands of end users I was to some degree responsible for internationally. In my professional opinion and with the maximum regret, I do not believe that OOo/LibO has a product offering of adequate quality to be cost-effective in a high-cost labour economy. The support costs are just far too high. Thus, it is my considered though painful conclusion that the majority of IT managers in those economies would correctly judge MSO to be the better option. As I said, I wish it were different, but it is not. We can lobby and protest as much as we like, but in my opinion there is absolutely no chance of extensive corporate or governmental adoption in Western economies until the product is of comparable quality to MSO, by which I primarily mean an absence of bugs. Mike On 05/04/2011 12:37, Kürti László wrote: Mike, Have you ever tried to work with MS office? Have you ever made a doc longer than 10 pages? How many times you had to reedit those MS docs? Just about every time you opened it in a different PC. Pls don't get me wrong, but MS office works just as OO.o or LibO. And this is not the case, but please let yourself off the hook of MS FUDs. :) Laszlo - Original Message - From: "Mike Hall" To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 1:21:03 PM Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it. On 05/04/2011 12:11, Kürti László wrote: Even with docx, xlsx format could be read and written by OO.o or LibO (or at least a workaround can be find). Laslo, Don't get me wrong, I entirely agree with all your sentiments. Unfortunately, in practice the description of the situation I gave will dominate. The quote from your email above seems to confirm that even your company has experienced significant end user support issues. I just wish it were different. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Laszlo, It is not up to TDF to do something, but we have to act, each of us, individually and collectively to make sure we get results . Best, Charles. Le Tue, 5 Apr 2011 12:22:24 +0200 (CEST), Kürti László a écrit : > Charles, > > I was asking the European members personally! to take something > against it. We here in Hungary spent the last 5 years with lobbying > for only to let the FLOSS into the public sector. Earlier it was not > possible. We had some positive results 'cause we could refer the EU > policies. But if the EC don't give ...t what can I say? I tell you, > nothing! And really all the national governments will be more than > happy to find an excuse not to do anything for interoperability, for > standardization and for freedom. > > > If we?, you? (TDF) have the will and members stand behind this case > than we have a chance. > > Yes we must act an intelligent way but first of all we must act. > > Laszlo > > - Original Message - > From: "Charles-H. Schulz" > To: discuss@documentfoundation.org > Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 11:16:58 AM > Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS > licences, Please make your action today against it. > > Hello Laszlo, > > > Le Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:42:10 +0200 (CEST), > Kürti László a écrit : > > > Hi All, > > > > Sorry for this off topic but this is serious > > http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9215419/EC_enters_talks_with_Microsoft_for_new_licenses?taxonomyName=IT+in+Government&taxonomyId=13 > > > > If this come true than we (LibreOffice an other FLOSS products) will > > be down and out, buried by dust for ever, governments do not need > > better excuse than this. > > > > Please make your action today: > > blog about, send a mail to your member of EP, tell the local media > > > I would not be as pessimistic as you are, the EC is unfortunately a > MS shop, but there is certainly ground to protest; I'd suggest you use > other, more focused initiatives than this list to take action: > http://interopwikiproject.com/public-procurement:ec-pushes-ahead-with-windows-7-migration > > Best, > Charles. > > > > > Thx > > Laszlo > > > > -- > > Kürti László > > Open SKM Agency Kft. > > 1024 Budapest Kút u. 5 > > www.openskm.com > > kurti.las...@openskm.com > > (+36-1)-788-6556 > > > > > > -- Charles-H. Schulz Membre du Comité exécutif The Document Foundation. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Mike, Have you ever tried to work with MS office? Have you ever made a doc longer than 10 pages? How many times you had to reedit those MS docs? Just about every time you opened it in a different PC. Pls don't get me wrong, but MS office works just as OO.o or LibO. And this is not the case, but please let yourself off the hook of MS FUDs. :) Laszlo - Original Message - From: "Mike Hall" To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 1:21:03 PM Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it. On 05/04/2011 12:11, Kürti László wrote: > Even with docx, xlsx format could be read and written by OO.o or LibO (or at > least a workaround can be find). Laslo, Don't get me wrong, I entirely agree with all your sentiments. Unfortunately, in practice the description of the situation I gave will dominate. The quote from your email above seems to confirm that even your company has experienced significant end user support issues. I just wish it were different. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
On 05/04/2011 12:11, Kürti László wrote: Even with docx, xlsx format could be read and written by OO.o or LibO (or at least a workaround can be find). Laslo, Don't get me wrong, I entirely agree with all your sentiments. Unfortunately, in practice the description of the situation I gave will dominate. The quote from your email above seems to confirm that even your company has experienced significant end user support issues. I just wish it were different. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Mike, I just couldn't be more different than you. You are seriously misunderstand the whole problem. This is not about bugs. This is about standardization, this is about the question of freedom vs slavery. Anyway we as a company (although not a big one) using OpenOffice.org exclusively for 5 years. We are communicating the whole world (IT and not IT companies, European and Hungarian Public Institution, we have US and UK business partners) and during this 5 year we never (let me say NEVER!) experienced any blocking bug. Even with docx, xlsx format could be read and written by OO.o or LibO (or at least a workaround can be find). And let me remind you that EC is not spending it's own money but mine and yours! And the minimum level is make the whole process open and transparent. So this is not about bugs, but policy, future and a livable life. Best, Laszlo -- Kürti László Open SKM Agency Kft. 1024 Budapest Kút u. 5 www.openskm.com kurti.las...@openskm.com (+36-1)-788-6556 - Original Message - From: "Mike Hall" To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 12:45:28 PM Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it. I think we also need to examine some of the reasons behind the reluctance. I've made this particular point before, but I don't think its significance has been accepted by the OOo/LibO community. It's hardly possible to use LibO seriously without soon running into a serious bug. I'm sure we all have our own pet problems and have found a way around them or have simply accepted them. The difficult is that for the 'normal' end user, the support cost of just one of those incidents is likely to exceed the MSO licence cost. Similar kinds of problems do of course occur with MSO, but my experience in a very large international where I was in a place to see the problems is that they are very very much rarer. Until we put our house in order and deliver a product free of the majority of bugs, for most pragmatists the obvious simplest and cheapest solution is bound to remain MSO. Thus, whatever the protests and lobbying, the bureaucracy will find a way of justifying that choice. From my observations, the quality of OOo has in practice been getting worse rather than better with each succeeding release. It's too early to say for LibO, but I do not see that concentrated determination to address the totality of bugs which would be necessary to make things right. Mike On 05/04/2011 11:22, Kürti László wrote: > Charles, > > I was asking the European members personally! to take something against it. > We here in Hungary spent the last 5 years with lobbying for only to let the > FLOSS into the public sector. Earlier it was not possible. We had some > positive results 'cause we could refer the EU policies. > But if the EC don't give ...t what can I say? > I tell you, nothing! > And really all the national governments will be more than happy to find an > excuse not to do anything for interoperability, for standardization and for > freedom. > > > If we?, you? (TDF) have the will and members stand behind this case than we > have a chance. > > Yes we must act an intelligent way but first of all we must act. > > Laszlo > > - Original Message ----- > From: "Charles-H. Schulz" > To: discuss@documentfoundation.org > Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 11:16:58 AM > Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, > Please make your action today against it. > > Hello Laszlo, > > > Le Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:42:10 +0200 (CEST), > Kürti László a écrit : > >> Hi All, >> >> Sorry for this off topic but this is serious >> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9215419/EC_enters_talks_with_Microsoft_for_new_licenses?taxonomyName=IT+in+Government&taxonomyId=13 >> >> If this come true than we (LibreOffice an other FLOSS products) will >> be down and out, buried by dust for ever, governments do not need >> better excuse than this. >> >> Please make your action today: >> blog about, send a mail to your member of EP, tell the local media > > > I would not be as pessimistic as you are, the EC is unfortunately a > MS shop, but there is certainly ground to protest; I'd suggest you use > other, more focused initiatives than this list to take action: > http://interopwikiproject.com/public-procurement:ec-pushes-ahead-with-windows-7-migration > > Best, > Charles. > >> >> Thx >> Laszlo >> >> -- >> Kürti László >> Open SKM Agency Kft. >> 1024 Budapest Kút u. 5 >> www.openskm.com >> kurti.las...@openskm.com >> (+36-1)-788-6556 >> >&
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
I think we also need to examine some of the reasons behind the reluctance. I've made this particular point before, but I don't think its significance has been accepted by the OOo/LibO community. It's hardly possible to use LibO seriously without soon running into a serious bug. I'm sure we all have our own pet problems and have found a way around them or have simply accepted them. The difficult is that for the 'normal' end user, the support cost of just one of those incidents is likely to exceed the MSO licence cost. Similar kinds of problems do of course occur with MSO, but my experience in a very large international where I was in a place to see the problems is that they are very very much rarer. Until we put our house in order and deliver a product free of the majority of bugs, for most pragmatists the obvious simplest and cheapest solution is bound to remain MSO. Thus, whatever the protests and lobbying, the bureaucracy will find a way of justifying that choice. From my observations, the quality of OOo has in practice been getting worse rather than better with each succeeding release. It's too early to say for LibO, but I do not see that concentrated determination to address the totality of bugs which would be necessary to make things right. Mike On 05/04/2011 11:22, Kürti László wrote: Charles, I was asking the European members personally! to take something against it. We here in Hungary spent the last 5 years with lobbying for only to let the FLOSS into the public sector. Earlier it was not possible. We had some positive results 'cause we could refer the EU policies. But if the EC don't give ...t what can I say? I tell you, nothing! And really all the national governments will be more than happy to find an excuse not to do anything for interoperability, for standardization and for freedom. If we?, you? (TDF) have the will and members stand behind this case than we have a chance. Yes we must act an intelligent way but first of all we must act. Laszlo - Original Message - From: "Charles-H. Schulz" To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 11:16:58 AM Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it. Hello Laszlo, Le Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:42:10 +0200 (CEST), Kürti László a écrit : Hi All, Sorry for this off topic but this is serious http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9215419/EC_enters_talks_with_Microsoft_for_new_licenses?taxonomyName=IT+in+Government&taxonomyId=13 If this come true than we (LibreOffice an other FLOSS products) will be down and out, buried by dust for ever, governments do not need better excuse than this. Please make your action today: blog about, send a mail to your member of EP, tell the local media I would not be as pessimistic as you are, the EC is unfortunately a MS shop, but there is certainly ground to protest; I'd suggest you use other, more focused initiatives than this list to take action: http://interopwikiproject.com/public-procurement:ec-pushes-ahead-with-windows-7-migration Best, Charles. Thx Laszlo -- Kürti László Open SKM Agency Kft. 1024 Budapest Kút u. 5 www.openskm.com kurti.las...@openskm.com (+36-1)-788-6556 -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Charles, I was asking the European members personally! to take something against it. We here in Hungary spent the last 5 years with lobbying for only to let the FLOSS into the public sector. Earlier it was not possible. We had some positive results 'cause we could refer the EU policies. But if the EC don't give ...t what can I say? I tell you, nothing! And really all the national governments will be more than happy to find an excuse not to do anything for interoperability, for standardization and for freedom. If we?, you? (TDF) have the will and members stand behind this case than we have a chance. Yes we must act an intelligent way but first of all we must act. Laszlo - Original Message - From: "Charles-H. Schulz" To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 11:16:58 AM Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it. Hello Laszlo, Le Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:42:10 +0200 (CEST), Kürti László a écrit : > Hi All, > > Sorry for this off topic but this is serious > http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9215419/EC_enters_talks_with_Microsoft_for_new_licenses?taxonomyName=IT+in+Government&taxonomyId=13 > > If this come true than we (LibreOffice an other FLOSS products) will > be down and out, buried by dust for ever, governments do not need > better excuse than this. > > Please make your action today: > blog about, send a mail to your member of EP, tell the local media I would not be as pessimistic as you are, the EC is unfortunately a MS shop, but there is certainly ground to protest; I'd suggest you use other, more focused initiatives than this list to take action: http://interopwikiproject.com/public-procurement:ec-pushes-ahead-with-windows-7-migration Best, Charles. > > Thx > Laszlo > > -- > Kürti László > Open SKM Agency Kft. > 1024 Budapest Kút u. 5 > www.openskm.com > kurti.las...@openskm.com > (+36-1)-788-6556 > > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
"The commission is committed to getting value for money and negotiates on behalf of all the E.U. institutions, agencies and other bodies - 42 in all. Representing such a large number allows us to drive costs down and we will drive a hard bargain." How hard a bargain can they drive when the vendor knows they are not serious about using anything else and that they are already massively locked-in? To be fair, they are locked-in and they have to continue business and they are on stuff that will soon not be supported. I doubt there is much practical alternative but given the situation they should have a strategy so that in 3 years time when they agreements come up for renewal they are in a much stronger position. I think we should be a little more intelligent about lobbying MEPs. Say we understand the problem but they really need a strategy to get out of it and we are willing to help. eg Set up an EU funded project to identify where easy transition is possible and where it is difficult. Set the budget for this project at 10% of the fees they will pay MS on the rationale that the possibility of transition will at least lower the costs at the next negotiation by 10%. If some administrations are easy to migrate do these even if they have had the licenses paid to demonstrate that you are serious. We can provide low cost training and certification to support the strategy. 2011/4/5 pierre choffardet > Le 05/04/2011 09:42, Kürti László a écrit : > > Hi All, >> >> Sorry for this off topic but this is serious >> >> http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9215419/EC_enters_talks_with_Microsoft_for_new_licenses?taxonomyName=IT+in+Government&taxonomyId=13 >> >> If this come true than we (LibreOffice an other FLOSS products) will be >> down and out, buried by dust for ever, governments do not need better excuse >> than this. >> >> Please make your action today: >> blog about, send a mail to your member of EP, tell the local media >> >> Thx >> Laszlo >> >> -- >> Kürti László >> Open SKM Agency Kft. >> 1024 Budapest Kút u. 5 >> www.openskm.com >> kurti.las...@openskm.com >> (+36-1)-788-6556 >> >> >> *April 1, 2011 > > > > * > > -- > Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org > Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ > All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be > deleted > -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQ www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Le Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:53:47 +0200, pierre choffardet a écrit : > Le 05/04/2011 09:42, Kürti László a écrit : > > Hi All, > > > > Sorry for this off topic but this is serious > > http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9215419/EC_enters_talks_with_Microsoft_for_new_licenses?taxonomyName=IT+in+Government&taxonomyId=13 > > > > If this come true than we (LibreOffice an other FLOSS products) > > will be down and out, buried by dust for ever, governments do not > > need better excuse than this. > > > > Please make your action today: > > blog about, send a mail to your member of EP, tell the local media > > > > Thx > > Laszlo > > > > -- > > Kürti László > > Open SKM Agency Kft. > > 1024 Budapest Kút u. 5 > > www.openskm.com > > kurti.las...@openskm.com > > (+36-1)-788-6556 > > > > > *April 1, 2011 > No it's not an April fools' day, unfortunately. The article has been published that day but there were others before and after. best, Charles. > > * > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Hello Laszlo, Le Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:42:10 +0200 (CEST), Kürti László a écrit : > Hi All, > > Sorry for this off topic but this is serious > http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9215419/EC_enters_talks_with_Microsoft_for_new_licenses?taxonomyName=IT+in+Government&taxonomyId=13 > > If this come true than we (LibreOffice an other FLOSS products) will > be down and out, buried by dust for ever, governments do not need > better excuse than this. > > Please make your action today: > blog about, send a mail to your member of EP, tell the local media I would not be as pessimistic as you are, the EC is unfortunately a MS shop, but there is certainly ground to protest; I'd suggest you use other, more focused initiatives than this list to take action: http://interopwikiproject.com/public-procurement:ec-pushes-ahead-with-windows-7-migration Best, Charles. > > Thx > Laszlo > > -- > Kürti László > Open SKM Agency Kft. > 1024 Budapest Kút u. 5 > www.openskm.com > kurti.las...@openskm.com > (+36-1)-788-6556 > > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Le 05/04/2011 09:42, Kürti László a écrit : Hi All, Sorry for this off topic but this is serious http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9215419/EC_enters_talks_with_Microsoft_for_new_licenses?taxonomyName=IT+in+Government&taxonomyId=13 If this come true than we (LibreOffice an other FLOSS products) will be down and out, buried by dust for ever, governments do not need better excuse than this. Please make your action today: blog about, send a mail to your member of EP, tell the local media Thx Laszlo -- Kürti László Open SKM Agency Kft. 1024 Budapest Kút u. 5 www.openskm.com kurti.las...@openskm.com (+36-1)-788-6556 *April 1, 2011 * -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Hi All, Sorry for this off topic but this is serious http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9215419/EC_enters_talks_with_Microsoft_for_new_licenses?taxonomyName=IT+in+Government&taxonomyId=13 If this come true than we (LibreOffice an other FLOSS products) will be down and out, buried by dust for ever, governments do not need better excuse than this. Please make your action today: blog about, send a mail to your member of EP, tell the local media Thx Laszlo -- Kürti László Open SKM Agency Kft. 1024 Budapest Kút u. 5 www.openskm.com kurti.las...@openskm.com (+36-1)-788-6556 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
