Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[BRM]

- Original Message 

> From: Sebastian Spaeth 

> > http://docs.officeshots.org/ may be a potential starting point -
> >  especially when it comes to document conversion / rendering
> >  fidelity.
> 
> I don't know if and how easy this would be in drupal. So far I  have
> coded a very simple webform in "django" (python is my thing :-))  to
> allow uploading a document and a comment.
> 
> Next, I want to integrate  automatic conversion of the doc to .pdf by
> LibO in which, when finished, the  user can mark the pages that exhibit
> conversion problems. Adding screenshots  from MS Office would be cool,
> but I don't know how to do that (although the  officeshot site manages
> it, so it must be possible).
> 
> The only thing  that is then left, is to link the uploaded doc to a
> bugzilla issue and  display the status from the bug in question. The
> linking to a bug would (in  my vision), not necessarily happen by the
> user, but by QA team, that vets  those entries.
> 

You do realize that Bugzilla and other similar tools do allow you to attach 
files, etc
directly to the bug report, no? I.e. there is no need to have an external 
source 
to store the files.

Ben


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Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Andrea Pescetti]

Sebastian Spaeth wrote:
> I don't know if and how easy this would be in drupal. So far I have
> coded a very simple webform in "django" (python is my thing :-)) to
> allow uploading a document and a comment.

This would be elementary in Drupal.

> The only thing that is then left, is to link the uploaded doc to a
> bugzilla issue and display the status from the bug in question. The
> linking to a bug would (in my vision), not necessarily happen by the
> user, but by QA team, that vets those entries.

And this triaging phase is indeed the main challenge, both in technical
and in resources (volunteers) terms.

Regards,
  Andrea.


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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Sebastian Spaeth]

On Sun, 14 Nov 2010 23:43:49 +0100, Thorsten Behrens wrote:
> Sebastian Spaeth wrote:
> > I envision a *simple* web app which allows me to
> > 
> > a) upload an .odt, .doc, or .docx document and
> > b) chose whether it causes 1) crashes or 2) document conversion problems
> > c) allow to add a comment (it crashes for this document, but only when
> > using font X)
> > d) optionally add an email address that allows people to stay in the
> > loop on updates.
> > 
> we've chatted about this on irc - and I very much love the idea. I
> wonder if we should split out this particular topic & move it over
> to the website list?
> 
> http://docs.officeshots.org/ may be a potential starting point -
> especially when it comes to document conversion / rendering
> fidelity.

I don't know if and how easy this would be in drupal. So far I have
coded a very simple webform in "django" (python is my thing :-)) to
allow uploading a document and a comment.

Next, I want to integrate automatic conversion of the doc to .pdf by
LibO in which, when finished, the user can mark the pages that exhibit
conversion problems. Adding screenshots from MS Office would be cool,
but I don't know how to do that (although the officeshot site manages
it, so it must be possible).

The only thing that is then left, is to link the uploaded doc to a
bugzilla issue and display the status from the bug in question. The
linking to a bug would (in my vision), not necessarily happen by the
user, but by QA team, that vets those entries.

> > Others would take this and try to replicate the crash or formatting
> > problem, and check if there is a bug for it and create one if needed
> > (linking to it). This allows for dead-simple reporting of problems, and
> > we'd have test documents that we can use for testing.
> > 
> Yeah. And for devs & QA people, it would be _very_ handy to have
> page thumbnails generated from various versions available, to vet
> conversion problems and regressions.

Yes, exactly.
 
> > Of course, confidential docs won't work, so people would have to
> > e.g. replace all text with lorem ipsums before submitting.
> > 
> Or provide an email address to send those docs to - more often than
> not, a document cleansed thusly will not exhibit the bug anymore. ;)

Well, one *could* make that non-public optionally, but it would lose much of its
usefulness, but could still be used as regression testcase by
developers.

I plan to work slowly towards this direction to get at least a proof of
concept up, but given that my dajob is pretty demanding, this could take
a while. If someone beats me to it, I'd not be sad.


Sebastian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Charles Marcus]

On 2010-11-13 12:38 PM, jonathon wrote:
> On 11/12/2010 01:12 PM, Charles Marcus wrote:
>> Bug#'s? Thunderbird has never had a problem 'retrieving' our mail 
>> in our office, and we've been using it (40-60 users over the
>> years) since about version 0.8, so whatever your problem is/was,
>> obviously it is/was something fairly obscure.

> The issue quite literally is: "Too many email accounts with too much
> mail to be retrieved".

Which really means nothing as a 'bug report'.

You said you had reported bugs that were never addressed and/or marked
as WONTFIX. I asked for specific bug numbers, so I could go read about
them, not a short description of what you imagine the problems is/was.

Sounds like you simply encountered problems resulting from the TB
developers bad decision to make full offline mode the default for all
IMAP accounts.

I currently have 25 separate IMAP accounts in Thunderbird, each with its
own set of folders, and have been using it this way for many years with
basically no problems aside from the known issues/limitations that annoy
the hell out of me sometimes...

-- 

Best regards,

Charles

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Marc Paré]

Le 2010-11-15 06:12, Alexander Thurgood a écrit :

Hi Marc,

Le 15/11/10 11:57, Marc Paré a écrit :


Ahh! Great idea! Although, this sounds more like a user-help question.
We would then have to be concerned about spammers, nasties etc.
uploading files to the Website for nothing. I guess we would have to
make sure that there were conditions preventing this.


Judging from the recent spamming I've had on my OOo user account on the
bugs I'd raised or been involved with in the past, I would say that even
IssueZilla is fallible to those kind of attacks (admittedly it doesn't
use captcha or anything like that (or at least it didn't when I signed
all those years ago :-)). In the past week, at least 5 of the bug issues
I worked on / raised as QA and which had been resolved (some of them
many years ago) have been the subject of attempted virus/trojan
attachment attacks. Any system that might be put in place for LibO would
have to, if possible, try and avoid that pitfall for the people being
notified by new submissions. OK, I'm wary enough not to use a mail
reader that automatically opens attachments, nor do I go around clicking
on them willy-nilly, but even so, there is still the potential for harm.




Were you part of the long discussion on bug-submission and some (like
myself) recommending a mentor/helper helping users submitting bugs? This
would almost seem alike. In this case, the user would send the file to
the mentor/helper for an initial look at the problem. If the
mentor/helper could not solve the problem with his resoureces (some
other helpers could be asked to look at the file), then either the
mentor/helper or the user would submit the bug. This may be a better way
of accomplishing your suggestion and avoids the potential trouble with
users flooding the website space with large amounts of files (read
spammers). At least the user-mentor/helper scenario would be more
intimate (the user would have a real person attached to his problem) and
the file upload would only go to the mentor/helper.


We had a similar system in the N-L French group, because most of the
French users didn't want to, or simply couldn't, get to grips with
having to fill in bug reports in English on the IssueZilla site. I
personally think that that system worked rather well : the user would
submit a bug to other users on the N-L list, those who understood IZ/IT
would test to try and reproduce and confirm, and then if confirmed,
would submit the issue. So yes, I can see that a similar sort of
procedure would work here with LibO. But like I said, this was sort of
self-organised from within the Native Lang group.


Alex

I would be on-side if there was a proposition to formalize this on all 
localisation groups. It only makes even more sense now.


Marc





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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Alexander Thurgood]

Hi all,


Le 15/11/10 05:39, Marc Paré a écrit :
> 
> While I think this is a good idea, are you looking to see if this is
> possible to do on the LO website?
> 

IMHO, I think this would be a brilliant idea too, and would help with
bug triaging. In my experience, most people's immediate concern /
dislike / hatred / frustration of a software product like an office
productivity suite is when the document they are working on does not
display / print / edit in the way they were expecting or causes a crash
or freeze. A central place where these could be left, commented on,
analysed etc would be good. However, it would have to, I would think be
seamlessly integrated into the LibO website (via linking to an external
or an own platform). One of the things at present that is offputting for
the non-specialist in the bug submission process is having to go to a
site that has nothing to do with LibreOffice whatsoever. To submit a bug
for LibO, one has to sign up to the freedesktop submission process : it
would make things easier for many if that could all be handled
transparently via the LibO website.


Just my 2c.

Alex



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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Thorsten Behrens]

Sebastian Spaeth wrote:
> I envision a *simple* web app which allows me to
> 
> a) upload an .odt, .doc, or .docx document and
> b) chose whether it causes 1) crashes or 2) document conversion problems
> c) allow to add a comment (it crashes for this document, but only when
> using font X)
> d) optionally add an email address that allows people to stay in the
> loop on updates.
> 
Hi Sebastian,

we've chatted about this on irc - and I very much love the idea. I
wonder if we should split out this particular topic & move it over
to the website list?

http://docs.officeshots.org/ may be a potential starting point -
especially when it comes to document conversion / rendering
fidelity.

> Others would take this and try to replicate the crash or formatting
> problem, and check if there is a bug for it and create one if needed
> (linking to it). This allows for dead-simple reporting of problems, and
> we'd have test documents that we can use for testing.
> 
Yeah. And for devs & QA people, it would be _very_ handy to have
page thumbnails generated from various versions available, to vet
conversion problems and regressions.

> Of course, confidential docs won't work, so people would have to
> e.g. replace all text with lorem ipsums before submitting.
> 
Or provide an email address to send those docs to - more often than
not, a document cleansed thusly will not exhibit the bug anymore. ;)

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Michel!

Am Samstag, den 13.11.2010, 18:01 -0500 schrieb Michel Gagnon:
> Le 2010-11-12 22:20, Duane a écrit :
> > On 11/12/2010 06:43 PM, Michel Gagnon wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't know about others, but I, for one, NEVER send those automated
> >> crash reports. It feels a bit like big brother watching over my shoulder.
> > You are kidding right?
> >
> > How do you expect problems to be resolved if they are not reported?
> 
> I much prefer to analyse the situation thoroughly before I send a 
> report. If it happens only once, it could be a system error, a program 
> error or a human error. If I can reproduce 2 or 3 times, then it is 
> likely to be a bug and I can say what happens, what should have 
> happened, what was the situation before it crashed, etc. The automated 
> report doesn't say anything like "It crashes when I convert long 
> document into PDF, but only when I use the Optima font"

Good point - but this is the sort of thing which is targeted by using
such automated reports (more clearly, one of the main reasons to use
automated reporting for some issues).

So it is great that you try to reproduce this error - to provide some
more in-depth analysis. At the same time, nobody can say if somebody
else is affected too. The more users are affected (usually), the more
important is the bug. And here we move the evaluation to the automated
system - the more similar crashes/bugs, the more important to work on.
The Hamburg guys for example, collect crash reports and prioritize them
according their occurrence. This is something the single (and
experienced) end-user is usually be unable to do.

So, things like automatic reports are more helpful when we think about
"user groups" instead of "single users".

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Sebastian Spaeth]

If I may?

I envision a *simple* web app which allows me to

a) upload an .odt, .doc, or .docx document and
b) chose whether it causes 1) crashes or 2) document conversion problems
c) allow to add a comment (it crashes for this document, but only when
using font X)
d) optionally add an email address that allows people to stay in the
loop on updates.

Others would take this and try to replicate the crash or formatting
problem, and check if there is a bug for it and create one if needed
(linking to it). This allows for dead-simple reporting of problems, and
we'd have test documents that we can use for testing.

Of course, confidential docs won't work, so people would have to
e.g. replace all text with lorem ipsums before submitting.

Sebastian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Rainer Bielefeld]

Michel Gagnon schrieb:

[...] The automated
report doesn't say anything like "It crashes when I convert long
document into PDF, but only when I use the Optima font"


Good example, hat's the point. Currently I don't see a problem that 
there are too few reports, but often reports are not meaningful enough. 
What should be the advantage if we have the same useless report 1000 
times "because it's so easy to report?"


But I agree with ambitions for something like a bug report assistant 
that leads the reporter to several questions and assures that all basics 
will be reported correctly and completely. My experience is that after 
additional demand for answers to standard questions by QA members useful 
additional information can be contributed.


Rainer


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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Michel Gagnon]

Le 2010-11-12 22:20, Duane a écrit :

On 11/12/2010 06:43 PM, Michel Gagnon wrote:


I don't know about others, but I, for one, NEVER send those automated
crash reports. It feels a bit like big brother watching over my shoulder.

You are kidding right?

How do you expect problems to be resolved if they are not reported?



I much prefer to analyse the situation thoroughly before I send a 
report. If it happens only once, it could be a system error, a program 
error or a human error. If I can reproduce 2 or 3 times, then it is 
likely to be a bug and I can say what happens, what should have 
happened, what was the situation before it crashed, etc. The automated 
report doesn't say anything like "It crashes when I convert long 
document into PDF, but only when I use the Optima font"


--
Michel Gagnon
Montréal (Québec, Canada) -- http://mgagnon.net

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Johannes!

Am Samstag, den 13.11.2010, 10:05 +0100 schrieb Johannes Bausch:

[WinXP Crash Report Example]

> better:
> * ask the user once at the beginning if he wants to report crashes and
> list the information THERE
> * NEVER include things like the current program's memory page dump or
> something alike
> * then DO NOT ask again but just send it
> 
> alternative:
> * pop-up which sais that a crash report can be sent if the user wishes, but:
> * it only has a input field where the user can say for himself what
> happened and when
> * checkbox saying something like: "include relevant data", where
> "data" really leads to ALL the data being sent

I mentioned it before, there is already a crash reporter that is
documented in a specification at [1]. It allows to view the sent
information and it allows people to add feedback - so the user is still
in control.

> The current problem is that hardly anyone trusts these crash reports -
> that's what I experience when talking to friends about that issue. So
> we first have to make the user think that something is being done.
> I've repeatedly used the "Firefox made me sad"-thing but I've never
> used the crash report before.

We, the UX team, thought similar when Sun worked on the OpenOffice
Improvement Program - the underlying framework collects (non-content)
information during the usage of OpenOffice.org [2].

There has been a huge risk concerning credibility, trust, ... and it all
turned out to be wrong. There are some people who do not use this
feature - but many other people do. So even if some people deny that, it
might still be a great resource for information.

At the end, it is about being open - not only open-source ;-)

Cheers,
Christoph

[1]
http://specs.openoffice.org/appwide/errorreporter/error_report_2_0_ui_specification.odt

[2]
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/OpenOffice.org_User_Feedback_Program



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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[jonathon]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 11/12/2010 01:12 PM, Charles Marcus wrote:

> Bug#'s? Thunderbird has never had a problem 'retrieving' our mail in our 
> office, and we've been using it (40-60 users over the years) since about
 version 0.8, so whatever your problem is/was, obviously it is/was
something fairly obscure.

The issue quite literally is: "Too many email accounts with too much
mail to be retrieved".

jonathon
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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Rainer Bielefeld]

Rainer Bielefeld schrieb:


May be we open some Task-Issues at FreeDesktop Bugzilla


Started here:


Rainer

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Johannes Bausch]

I must agree here. Automated crash reports have kind of a bad
reputation, mainly because of Windows XP.
* you don't know what is being sent, and even when its listed you
can't be sure there's no personal data
* you don't know what is being done with the data
* there's nothing done about that, at least that's what I feel

better:
* ask the user once at the beginning if he wants to report crashes and
list the information THERE
* NEVER include things like the current program's memory page dump or
something alike
* then DO NOT ask again but just send it

alternative:
* pop-up which sais that a crash report can be sent if the user wishes, but:
* it only has a input field where the user can say for himself what
happened and when
* checkbox saying something like: "include relevant data", where
"data" really leads to ALL the data being sent

The current problem is that hardly anyone trusts these crash reports -
that's what I experience when talking to friends about that issue. So
we first have to make the user think that something is being done.
I've repeatedly used the "Firefox made me sad"-thing but I've never
used the crash report before.

Joey.

>> I don't know about others, but I, for one, NEVER send those automated
>> crash reports. It feels a bit like big brother watching over my shoulder.
>>
> You are kidding right?

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Duane]

On 11/12/2010 06:43 PM, Michel Gagnon wrote:

Le 2010-11-12 16:50, BRM a écrit :

...
Seriously, Thunderbird has a means to capture a crash report and save 
it for

later
submittal. They recognize that not all users are able to access the 
Internet or

their
mail system at all times. LibO needs to account for that too.

And no, copy/paste is not a step in the right direction here.

Ben



I don't know about others, but I, for one, NEVER send those automated 
crash reports. It feels a bit like big brother watching over my shoulder.



You are kidding right?

How do you expect problems to be resolved if they are not reported?


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Re: OOoCon 2010 Talk (was: Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla)

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Christoph, *,

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:50 PM, Christoph Noack
 wrote:
>
> [1] Video (approx. 700 MB!)
> http://users2.ooodev.org/~ooocon2010/01_september/FT_409/18.15_charles_schulz_mechtilde_stehmann.flv

120MB 
http://users2.ooodev.org/~cloph/videos/10-09-01_FT_409_18.15_charles_schulz_mechtilde_stehmann.mkv

ciao
Christian

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Michel Gagnon]

Le 2010-11-12 16:50, BRM a écrit :

...
Seriously, Thunderbird has a means to capture a crash report and save it for
later
submittal. They recognize that not all users are able to access the Internet or
their
mail system at all times. LibO needs to account for that too.

And no, copy/paste is not a step in the right direction here.

Ben



I don't know about others, but I, for one, NEVER send those automated 
crash reports. It feels a bit like big brother watching over my shoulder.


--
Michel Gagnon
Montréal (Québec, Canada) -- http://mgagnon.net

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OOoCon 2010 Talk (was: Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla)

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Charles!

Am Freitag, den 12.11.2010, 07:43 -0500 schrieb Charles Marcus:
> On 2010-11-12 6:01 AM, Michael Meeks wrote:
> > Perhaps we want a simple hash in addition to that - that combines
> > vendor, version, platform, and so on - and that we demand - so we
> can
> > detect wrong values that people enter for version / etc. - thus not
> > tempting them to file an old bug vs. a newer version just to get
> > attention ;-) would be easy to do.
> >   "Version key (paste from help->about):"
> 
> I don't understand why this should have to be manually entered by the
> user. 

Good question, short answer: There is no reason. At least no real
technical reason ...

At the OOoCon 2010 (and before), we already talked how to improve the
issue gathering and tracking from the user's and the supporter's
point-of-view. The current idea is a small first step to some agreement
between the different contributors ... because - from what I understand
- it is more the differences how the projects handle these issues, than
a technical problem.

The discussion at the OOoCon 2010 made clear to me, that - if people go
for such a (let's call it) automated issue gathering system, to say
"yes, software does contain bugs". And it requires some agreement across
different projects / Linux distributions how to harmonize such a system,
so that every contributor can have some benefit.

And here, the experience of the projects and the current workflows seem
to differ to such an extend, that the "given" manual system provides
reasonable flexibility. Another experience people talked about was, that
fixing the known bugs is already a lot of effort. But, I still consider
this "costly" for the users and the people doing the support on the
mailing lists.

However, we collected some ideas within the presentation / workshop ...
so if you like dynamic camera movements and emotional debates, then
please have a look at the conference video [1].

As strange as it sounds, I'm happy for each of the tiny improvements ...
and after a long time, we start to address these improvements. Okay, the
remaining comments might better be located on another mailing list :-)

Cheers,
Christoph

[1] Video (approx. 700 MB!)
http://users2.ooodev.org/~ooocon2010/01_september/FT_409/18.15_charles_schulz_mechtilde_stehmann.flv


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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[BRM]

- Original Message 

> From: Michael Meeks 
> On Fri, 2010-11-12 at 15:36 +0100, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:
> > >  LibreOffice already has the selectable help/about version text so it
> >  > can be cut/pasted.
> > Yeeey!! 
>  :-)

Hardly. Now you've got two things that can go wrong for a bug report.
Sure it's less the user has to remember, but now you're relying the user
being able to reliably copy/paste for the bug report too - information that
may not be easily accessible - e.g. if they can't run the software due to it
crashing, perhaps without generating the crash report manager.
 
> > >"Version key (paste from  help->about):"
> > That's what I allways dreamed from in  OOo!!
> 
> Nice - so - I guess we can do still better. It  would be -really- nice
> if we could cut/paste a block of text (perhaps a  non-human-readable
> chunk) that we could parse in javascript to auto-fill-out  many of the
> fields accurately:
> 
> platform / exact  version / enabled extensions /
> java version / etc.  etc.
> 
> I'll add this as an easy  hack.
> 
> As/when we have a defined URL, we could add a  'file a bug' link that
> could even auto-populate that. Lots of fun is  possible. First we need
> some draft of the form / flow / wizard[in a single  page] to fill in to
> file the bug I think.

Why bother? If you can do that, then you can just as easily have it load the 
web 
page
in a browser for the user to simply review and sign off on, or even just have 
another
dialog come up that directly submits the information to the system without 
having to
go through a web browser - which would be even better to do so as to cover users
that don't necessarily have Internet access since you could then create a zip 
file and
give them instructions on what to do when they _do_ have Internet access (or 
provide
a means to send it at a later time).

Seriously, Thunderbird has a means to capture a crash report and save it for 
later
submittal. They recognize that not all users are able to access the Internet or 
their
mail system at all times. LibO needs to account for that too.

And no, copy/paste is not a step in the right direction here.

Ben


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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Michael Meeks]

On Fri, 2010-11-12 at 15:36 +0100, Friedrich Strohmaier wrote:
> > LibreOffice already has the selectable help/about version text so it
> > can be cut/pasted.
> 
> Yeeey!! 

:-)

> > "Version key (paste from help->about):"
> 
> That's what I allways dreamed from in OOo!!

Nice - so - I guess we can do still better. It would be -really- nice
if we could cut/paste a block of text (perhaps a non-human-readable
chunk) that we could parse in javascript to auto-fill-out many of the
fields accurately:

platform / exact version / enabled extensions /
java version / etc. etc.

I'll add this as an easy hack.

As/when we have a defined URL, we could add a 'file a bug' link that
could even auto-populate that. Lots of fun is possible. First we need
some draft of the form / flow / wizard[in a single page] to fill in to
file the bug I think.

> Good news. LibO will make the race!! :o))

If we can get people excited and contributing, make QA a fun job
instead of a duplicate triaging nightmare etc. we'll do well :-) thanks
for your support.

ATB,

Michael.

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Benjamin Horst]

On Nov 12, 2010, at 11:26 AM, Povilas Kanapickas wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Rainer Bielefeld <
> rainerbielefeld_ooo...@bielefeldundbuss.de> wrote:
> 
>> I cant see any necessity for an "additional bug tracking system" for
>> "normal users". If he has a problem, the user can post it in an user mailing
>> list or in the forum, there he can get help.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> casual users don't do that. They only need to get their work done. Forums
> have the tendency to cost a lot of time, whereas many of non-power users do
> not understand mailing lists completely. If we want to get them involved in
> bug reporting, everything should be as easy as next>next>next, plus the
> already mentioned things making users feel they're part of the community
> (like 'your bug was resolved', etc. notifications). Otherwise users wouldn't
> care, or, even worse, dump LibO.

I agree that the need for simplicity is fundamental. What users could do if 
they were highly motivated is different from what they will do in real-world 
circumstances. Our community benefits most from this feedback, so we need to 
expend the effort to collect it. 

Firefox's current beta version (4.0b7) displays a prominent "Feedback" button 
on the toolbar, directly to the right of its Google search box. Clicking it 
opens a menu with "Firefox made me happy because..." and "Firefox made be sad 
because..." (It also includes links to see or turn off the User Studies 
feature.)

I'd suggest we examine and emulate Firefox's UX model here, if possible.

-Ben

Benjamin Horst
bho...@mac.com
646-464-2314 (Eastern)
www.solidoffice.com


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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Povilas Kanapickas]

On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Rainer Bielefeld <
rainerbielefeld_ooo...@bielefeldundbuss.de> wrote:

> I cant see any necessity for an "additional bug tracking system" for
> "normal users". If he has a problem, the user can post it in an user mailing
> list or in the forum, there he can get help.


Hi,

casual users don't do that. They only need to get their work done. Forums
have the tendency to cost a lot of time, whereas many of non-power users do
not understand mailing lists completely. If we want to get them involved in
bug reporting, everything should be as easy as next>next>next, plus the
already mentioned things making users feel they're part of the community
(like 'your bug was resolved', etc. notifications). Otherwise users wouldn't
care, or, even worse, dump LibO.

Povilas

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Rainer Bielefeld]

Christoph Noack schrieb:

[...] the chances get even better, if we avoid most of the manual
effort and and automate as much as possible.



Hi,

I cant see any necessity for an "additional bug tracking system" for 
"normal users". If he has a problem, the user can post it in an user 
mailing list or in the forum, there he can get help.


Rainer

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[BRM]

- Original Message 

> From: Thorsten Behrens 
> Christoph Noack wrote:
> > There may be different and good  reasons for users to participate in bug
> > reporting - but the best  (non-automated) system won't be able to collect
> > that much information in  a quality, that developers may simply start to
> > work on most of the  issues. From what I've seen so far, only the
> > individual discussions on  mailing lists or forums led to high-quality
> > bug reports right from the  start. And this is why I think, the community
> > members on the mailing  lists are incredibly helpful (maybe even
> > essential) for (more) efficient  development.
> > 
> Maybe with the exception of crashes - I'd at least give  that a try
> (usually backtrace, just-loaded document, and system details  gets
> you a long way). Apart from that, then, I guess  that
> EasyBugtrackingWizard should be considered one of the  many
> opportunities to turn users into participating community members
> (and  designed with that goal in mind).
> 

Perhaps such a wizard should have a dual interface:
1) Available on-line, searchable, etc. as part of the bug tracking tool.
2) Enable users to get to it also through a specific dialog in LO - under Help.

I would be willing to bet that most users don't pay attention to bugs mostly
because they have to go somewhere else to file them. It's a hassle.
Make something in LO that enables the user to track what they report,
so they can see that something was actually done, etc; perhaps
even a notifier (like the update notifier) saying "bug X that you submitted has 
been updated",
which could then either launch a browser or bring up a dialog to show the 
changes.

In other words, make it easy for users to participate beyond the initial report 
too.
Most won't want to use a separate system/software/website to do so.

And if the bug is a big issue to them, they may very well go find another piece 
of
software than file an issue and track it. Resolving that though, is a cultural 
thing
left over from proprietary software since most proprietary software companies
won't pay attention to software bugs unless the customer has a service contract
or pays lots of money to get it resolved. Make the user feel their issues are 
being
resolved and you'll get a lot better loyalty as well - that a community thing 
but it
starts with bug tracking - bugs, RFE, etc all inclusive.

Ben


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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Friedrich Strohmaier]

Hi Michael, *,

Michael Meeks schrieb:

[.. rought snip ..]

> LibreOffice already has the selectable help/about version text so it
> can be cut/pasted.

Yeeey!! 

[..]

>   "Version key (paste from help->about):"

That's what I allways dreamed from in OOo!!

[..]

Good news. LibO will make the race!! :o))

Gruß/regards
-- 
Friedrich
Libreoffice-Box http://libreofficebox.org/
LibreOffice and more on CD/DVD images
(german version already started)


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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Charles Marcus]

On 2010-11-11 7:08 PM, jonathon wrote:
> - From my POV, the biggest failure is how OOo implemented it.
> 
> It attempts to demand the naive OOo user state precisely where,
> when, what, and which components of OOo are affected by the 
> bug/feature/whatever. It also attempts to extract all of the
> technical data about the bug/feature/whatever, from a user that
> neither knows, nor cares about what a stack overflow is.

+10

> [Disclaimer: I quit submitting bug reports and RFIs to issuezilla
> for both OOo and Firefox/Thunderbird years ago, because they were
> invariably closed with a "won't fix" or "won't implement" tag. The
> usual reason being that so few people are affected, that it would not
> be worth the developer cost to fix/implement. I]

? You seem to be lumping two totally different aspects of bug trackers
together as one.

Firefox and Thunderbirds bug tracker is not even remotely as difficult
as OOo's. While I agree with you that the Mozilla devs tend to close
Feature Requests with a WONTFIX (or they agree it would be a nice
feature, but it just stays open with no one giving it any love) too
often, they do address real bugs fairly quickly - and the reason they
tend to neglect feature requests is because they - especially the
Thunderbird devs - are very short-staffed.

>> First, we need to get rid of the non-meaningful term "issue" and 
>> distinguish between bugs and requests for improvements.

> What one person views as a bug, a developer can view as an RFE.
> 
> [Case in point: The bug reports I filed on Thunderbird, about its 
> inability to retrieve email, were treated as RFEs, purely because
> they were not bugs, going by the then current email rerieval
> specifications for Thunderbird.]

Bug#'s? Thunderbird has never had a problem 'retrieving' our mail in our
office, and we've been using it (40-60 users over the years) since about
version 0.8, so whatever your problem is/was, obviously it is/was
something fairly obscure.

> What is needed is something that enables a user who has lots of data
> to include it, but not make a user that has little or no data,
> unwilling, or unable to submit a report.

Again, +10...

-- 

Best regards,

Charles

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Charles Marcus]

On 2010-11-12 6:01 AM, Michael Meeks wrote:
> Perhaps we want a simple hash in addition to that - that combines
> vendor, version, platform, and so on - and that we demand - so we can
> detect wrong values that people enter for version / etc. - thus not
> tempting them to file an old bug vs. a newer version just to get
> attention ;-) would be easy to do.
>   "Version key (paste from help->about):"

I don't understand why this should have to be manually entered by the user.

It is trivial to query most (all?) running systems about the system
details (platform, memory, processor info, etc) - so why not simply make
the crash reporter capable of querying the system it is installed on and
providing all of that information automatically?

Next would be to make the crash reporter deliver the crash report into
the same initial/easy 'bug reporter' that is available to end users and
triaged by more technically inclined volunteers.

Last, would be to give the online bug tracker a 'button' that would also
be capable of querying the Reporters system for details. Of course,
there would have to an initial 'Is the computer you are currently using
to report this problem the same computer on which you are experiencing
the problem with LibO?', as well as ample warnings and disclaimers about
what the tool will do before it actually does it...

I'll wager there are already some free tools available for querying most
if not all of the platforms that LibO runs on that could be leveraged.

-- 

Best regards,

Charles

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Michael Meeks]

On Thu, 2010-11-11 at 23:03 +0100, Christoph Noack wrote:
> Mmh, I think you've been at the talk by Mechtilde and Charles, or ?

Heh - of course; and listening. LibreOffice already has the selectable
help/about version text so it can be cut/pasted.

Perhaps we want a simple hash in addition to that - that combines
vendor, version, platform, and so on - and that we demand - so we can
detect wrong values that people enter for version / etc. - thus not
tempting them to file an old bug vs. a newer version just to get
attention ;-) would be easy to do.
"Version key (paste from help->about):"

> @ Charles, do you still have the few notes we took during/after the
> talk?

Mentally, I think I stored most of the issues for future work.

HTH,

Michael.

-- 
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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Thorsten Behrens]

Christoph Noack wrote:
> The interpretation leads to the following: "Many people reports bugs for
> one time, only. They are usually less capable of providing more
> information to developers - or better: the developers have to take care
> to get these information. On the other hand, few people report a lot of
> bug reports." This matches my personal experience.
> 
Hi Chris,

quite useful info - I like gut feeling backed up by serious
research. ;)

> There may be different and good reasons for users to participate in bug
> reporting - but the best (non-automated) system won't be able to collect
> that much information in a quality, that developers may simply start to
> work on most of the issues. From what I've seen so far, only the
> individual discussions on mailing lists or forums led to high-quality
> bug reports right from the start. And this is why I think, the community
> members on the mailing lists are incredibly helpful (maybe even
> essential) for (more) efficient development.
> 
Maybe with the exception of crashes - I'd at least give that a try
(usually backtrace, just-loaded document, and system details gets
you a long way). Apart from that, then, I guess that
EasyBugtrackingWizard should be considered one of the many
opportunities to turn users into participating community members
(and designed with that goal in mind).

Cheers,

-- Thorsten

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Jih-Yao Lin]

I don't know how to post a problem.

Chris in hong kong
在 2010-11-12，上午8:08， jonathon 写道：

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 11/11/2010 08:23 PM, Michel Gagnon wrote:
> 
>> Yet, I do not understand the "issue" system used by OpenOffice and Mozilla
> 
> I think I understand Issuezilla.
> 
> - From my POV, the biggest failure is how OOo implemented it.
> 
> It attempts to demand the naive OOo user state precisely where, when,
> what, and which components of OOo are affected by the
> bug/feature/whatever.  It also attempts to extract all of the technical
> data about the bug/feature/whatever, from a user that neither knows, nor
> cares about what a stack overflow is.
> 
> [Disclaimer: I quit submitting bug reports and RFIs to issuezilla for
> both OOo and Firefox/Thunderbird years ago, because they were invariably
> closed with a "won't fix" or "won't implement" tag. The usual reason
> being that so few people are affected, that it would not be worth the
> developer cost to fix/implement. I]
> 
>> First, we need to get rid of the non-meaningful term "issue" and
> distinguish between bugs and requests for improvements.
> 
> What one person views as a bug, a developer can view as an RFE.
> 
> [Case in point:  The bug reports I filed on Thunderbird, about its
> inability to retrieve email, were treated as RFEs, purely because they
> were not bugs, going by the then current email rerieval specifications
> for Thunderbird.]
> 
>> On the other hand, LibreOffice does not export colours in CMYK pdfs,
> 
> To a colour specialist, that is a bug, not an RFI. Granted, the end user
> might not know that CYMK is not part of the LibO specification for PDF
> export. But CYMK is part of the PDF specification, and that is what the
> user is going to go by.
> 
> On 11/11/2010 09:34 PM, Michael Meeks wrote:
> 
> 
>>  So - I suggest we create a wizard / web flow for bugzilla that
> demands lots of information: system details, exact versions, warns
> against filing bugs in truly old versions, and so on; so that we get a
> lot of the information we need in the 1st pass.
> 
> Getting as much information as possible, is a good idea. Overwhelming
> the user with data requests, may well backfire.
> 
> What is needed is something that enables a user who has lots of data to
> include it, but not make a user that has little or no data, unwilling,
> or unable to submit a report.
> 
> jonathon
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> 
> -- 
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> Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
> Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/
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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[jonathon]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 11/11/2010 08:23 PM, Michel Gagnon wrote:

> Yet, I do not understand the "issue" system used by OpenOffice and Mozilla

I think I understand Issuezilla.

- From my POV, the biggest failure is how OOo implemented it.

It attempts to demand the naive OOo user state precisely where, when,
what, and which components of OOo are affected by the
bug/feature/whatever.  It also attempts to extract all of the technical
data about the bug/feature/whatever, from a user that neither knows, nor
cares about what a stack overflow is.

[Disclaimer: I quit submitting bug reports and RFIs to issuezilla for
both OOo and Firefox/Thunderbird years ago, because they were invariably
closed with a "won't fix" or "won't implement" tag. The usual reason
being that so few people are affected, that it would not be worth the
developer cost to fix/implement. I]

> First, we need to get rid of the non-meaningful term "issue" and
distinguish between bugs and requests for improvements.

What one person views as a bug, a developer can view as an RFE.

[Case in point:  The bug reports I filed on Thunderbird, about its
inability to retrieve email, were treated as RFEs, purely because they
were not bugs, going by the then current email rerieval specifications
for Thunderbird.]

> On the other hand, LibreOffice does not export colours in CMYK pdfs,

To a colour specialist, that is a bug, not an RFI. Granted, the end user
might not know that CYMK is not part of the LibO specification for PDF
export. But CYMK is part of the PDF specification, and that is what the
user is going to go by.

On 11/11/2010 09:34 PM, Michael Meeks wrote:


>   So - I suggest we create a wizard / web flow for bugzilla that
demands lots of information: system details, exact versions, warns
against filing bugs in truly old versions, and so on; so that we get a
lot of the information we need in the 1st pass.

Getting as much information as possible, is a good idea. Overwhelming
the user with data requests, may well backfire.

What is needed is something that enables a user who has lots of data to
include it, but not make a user that has little or no data, unwilling,
or unable to submit a report.

jonathon
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

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=mx5d
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Michael, all!

Am Donnerstag, den 11.11.2010, 21:34 + schrieb Michael Meeks:
> > As I have advocated in the past (on this and the OOo list), I would
> > suggest a two-tiered system - a simple bug reporting page for end
> users,
> 
> So - I suggest we create a wizard / web flow for bugzilla that
> demands
> lots of information: system details, exact versions, warns against
> filing bugs in truly old versions, and so on; so that we get a lot of
> the information we need in the 1st pass. 

Mmh, I think you've been at the talk by Mechtilde and Charles, or? We
talked about how to ease bug reporting ... the chances get even better,
if we avoid most of the manual effort and and automate as much as
possible. 

If anybody wants to drive such an effort, I'm happy to join and provide
UX support (although I cannot offer that much time at the moment, grrr).

The funny thing is, that the UX team talked about such things (easing
problem and issue reports for both support and QA) at the OOoCon 2008
and we came to a solution which had been later realized by Microsoft.
Well, I don't think that anybody "talked", but Microsoft seems to take
this very seriously...


@ Charles, do you still have the few notes we took during/after the
talk?

Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[BRM]

- Original Message 

> From: Michael Meeks 
> To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> Sent: Thu, November 11, 2010 4:34:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla
> 
> 
> On Thu, 2010-11-11 at 10:29 -0500, Charles Marcus wrote:
> > 'Masses of  users' will not know how to properly report bugs.
> 
>  Amen.
> 
> > As I have advocated in the past (on this and the OOo list), I  would
> > suggest a two-tiered system - a simple bug reporting page for end  users,
> 
> So - I suggest we create a wizard / web flow  for bugzilla that demands
> lots of information: system details, exact  versions, warns against
> filing bugs in truly old versions, and so on; so that  we get a lot of
> the information we need in the 1st pass.

Please see how Gentoo handles this: http://bugs.gentoo.org/

Notice that anyone can search, and that there are two methods of entering bugs 
(which do require login):

* Enter a new bug report
* Enter a new bug report (advanced)I haven't used the 'advanced' 
method, but 
the normal method does present a series of questions for the user to help 
collect the information right up front.
They also provide some entires that are marked "if you don't know where put it, 
then put it here" - this occurs in several places in the process.
This is also quite helpful to the user, as it allows them to submit the bug and 
then have someone more knowledgeable about the system review it and decide
how to modify the bug report to get it to the right team.

This keeps it quick'n easy for the user, while getting the bug to the right 
folks. I was truly grateful for it on Gentoo's site when I submitted a 
stabilization bug for an android related package since I didn't have to guess 
who should get it; so instead of bouncing around 50 different people and 
annoying most of them with e-mails, it went to a few people who then assigned 
to 
the right people inside of one change to the bug.

Ben


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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Christoph Noack]

Hi Ben, all!

Just to add my 0.02 Euro Cent ... You mail fits very well to what I
would like to comment, therefore I picked "you".

Am Donnerstag, den 11.11.2010, 07:55 -0800 schrieb BRM: 
> - Original Message 
> 
> > From: Charles Marcus 
> > To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> > Sent: Thu, November 11, 2010 10:29:53 AM
> > Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla
> > 
> > On 2010-11-11 9:47 AM, Rainer Bielefeld wrote:
[comments about current bug tracker experience] 
> > 
> > 'Masses of users' will not know how to  properly report bugs.

On a Computer-Human Interaction conference in April this year, there has
been a very good talk discussing "how (plain) users report bugs". The
team analyzed the data of the Firefox bug tracker.

The interpretation leads to the following: "Many people reports bugs for
one time, only. They are usually less capable of providing more
information to developers - or better: the developers have to take care
to get these information. On the other hand, few people report a lot of
bug reports." This matches my personal experience.

There may be different and good reasons for users to participate in bug
reporting - but the best (non-automated) system won't be able to collect
that much information in a quality, that developers may simply start to
work on most of the issues. From what I've seen so far, only the
individual discussions on mailing lists or forums led to high-quality
bug reports right from the start. And this is why I think, the community
members on the mailing lists are incredibly helpful (maybe even
essential) for (more) efficient development.

However, there are other things we might improve to make it easier for
users to report issues ... but this belongs to another mailing list.


> > As I have advocated in the past (on this and the  OOo list), I would
> > suggest a two-tiered system - a simple bug reporting page  for end users,
> > where they can report bugs, document format/compatibility  problems and
> > feature requests. This page should simply require a validly  formatted
> > email address, and should not require the user to create an account  or
> > 'log in' to anything.
> 
> Mozilla resolved the issue for Firefox/Thunderbird by having a multi-tier 
> system:
> 
> 1. If you are reporting a feature request, then yes you need an account to 
> their 
> bugzilla to enter it.
> 2. If you are reporting crashes, then Firefox/Thunderbird bring up a special 
> crash dialog for the user to enter what they were doing and any other 
> comments 
> when the crash occurred; it then takes care of submitting things per process.

Concerning 1: In most cases, "classical" issue tracking or bug tracking
system will fail here. Therefore some discussion came up, how to collect
ideas and improvements within the community.

I'm currently unable to find the mail, so here is a link to what I
started quite some time ago:
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/OpenOffice.org_Idea_Handling

Michael - in parallel - did already include that to the Drupal website
development stuff.
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Drupal/brainstorm


Concerning 2: The funny thing is, that a crash reporter is available in
OOo, and thus, should be available within LibO as well. But - as far as
I know - we don't have a server ready to receive and to interpret the
data. But we now have pretty skilled devs around ;-) If you never
experienced a crash (*g*), here is the spec how it looks like: 
http://specs.openoffice.org/appwide/errorreporter/error_report_2_0_ui_specification.odt


[...]

> And yes, I've submitted bugs to both projects and have gone through getting 
> accounts - it's really not that much of a hassle to do. If you really wanted 
> to 
> make that less of a hassle, then integrate OpenID or something similar for 
> the 
> bugzilla login [...]

As far as I know, one of the requirements / aims for the current website
development is a Single Sign-On system. It would be great if it could be
extended to support the issue-tracker, too.


Cheers,
Christoph


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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Michael Meeks]

On Thu, 2010-11-11 at 10:29 -0500, Charles Marcus wrote:
> 'Masses of users' will not know how to properly report bugs.

Amen.

> As I have advocated in the past (on this and the OOo list), I would
> suggest a two-tiered system - a simple bug reporting page for end users,

So - I suggest we create a wizard / web flow for bugzilla that demands
lots of information: system details, exact versions, warns against
filing bugs in truly old versions, and so on; so that we get a lot of
the information we need in the 1st pass.

> This page should also be as simple as possible - ie, make it very easy
> to pick one of the two main categories (Bug or Feature Request), and if
> it is a bug, is it a document format/compatibility problem or 'Other'

Completely agreed. I think we can use bugzilla for the data storage
here though; but I love the idea.

The great thing about bugzilla, is that (I think) we can I suspect,
prototype & write much of this flow without actually needing to tweak
bugzilla in anyway - simply by submitting a more fully formed version.

I for one, would applaud the effort :-) lots of low-quality bugs with
no response in them only create problems, and needless work AFAICS.

HTH,

Michael.

-- 
 michael.me...@novell.com  <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot



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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[alan c]

On 11/11/10 15:29, Charles Marcus wrote:

On 2010-11-11 9:47 AM, Rainer Bielefeld wrote:

 the current bug tracking system is sufficien for expert communication,
 but if masses of users will file their problems, we will loose overview,
 soon. There are too less sort criterias for subcomponents, OS-Versions,
 LibO version and and and, afaik we don't have an useful permissions
 management ... . I'm afraid we will run into problems. Is there any
 discussion concerning solutions for these problems?


'Masses of users' will not know how to properly report bugs.

As I have advocated in the past (on this and the OOo list), I would
suggest a two-tiered system - a simple bug reporting page for end users,
where they


I am aware of the Ubuntu related Launchpad bug tracking process. I 
have used this a few times for Ubuntu things, and I am not at all a 
developer, however I am a fairly disciplined  end user.


Is a Launchpad  type facility in the frame?
--
alan cocks
Ubuntu user

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Michel Gagnon]

Le 2010-11-11 10:29, Charles Marcus a écrit :

On 2010-11-11 9:47 AM, Rainer Bielefeld wrote:

the current bug tracking system is sufficien for expert communication,
but if masses of users will file their problems, we will loose overview,
soon. There are too less sort criterias for subcomponents, OS-Versions,
LibO version and and and, afaik we don't have an useful permissions
management ... . I'm afraid we will run into problems. Is there any
discussion concerning solutions for these problems?

'Masses of users' will not know how to properly report bugs.

As I have advocated in the past (on this and the OOo list), I would
suggest a two-tiered system - a simple bug reporting page for end users..


Agreed. I do not consider myself totally stupid; I am a decent 
programmer and quite good with macros. Yet, I do not understand the 
"issue" system used by OpenOffice and Mozilla. Well, I could *learn* to 
work my way through it, but it defies all logic. We need a more 
user-friendly system that will help a lot more people understand the 
situation and even work on the project. What would we need?


First, we need to get rid of the non-meaningful term "issue" and 
distinguish between bugs and requests for improvements. Those should be 
in two different tables, with two very different follow-up processes. 
What's the difference ?
– LibreOffice claims that it exports Writer documents in PDF format. 
Let's say that it crashes during the process (it doesn't) or that it 
doesn't output the file properly with some fonts or character stretching 
values. That's a bug. The developers could either correct the program or 
even remove the function so LibreOffice would not export a document 
anymore. Then the bug is resolved. Another example of a less serious bug 
is the inconsistencies between the original files (odt) vs the .doc 
imports and exports.
– On the other hand, LibreOffice does not export colours in CMYK pdfs, 
nor it integrates animation styles in Impress styles. Those would be 
improvements and those do not belong into a list of bugs. Likewise for 
suggested improvements to the interface.


Bugs could be declared via a forum. I suggest basic questions are asked, 
maybe through pop ups (LO version, system, module...). Then, they need 
to be sorted by hand, with a human-understandable description and 
classified by topics. For instance : under "Tables", a bug could be 
described as "[Writer] Cells defined as headers are not reprinted 
properly on each page".


As for Improvements, there are two issues to discuss:
– their feasibility: whether or not it is technically possible – or 
technically wise – to implement them;

– their effect on the user interface: especially for front-end changes.

Again, a table that would say, in user-friendly terms, what has been 
suggested so far would help avoid duplicate issues.


Regards,

--
Michel Gagnon
Montréal (Québec, Canada) -- http://mgagnon.net

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Robert Derman]

Charles Marcus wrote:

On 2010-11-11 9:47 AM, Rainer Bielefeld wrote:
  

the current bug tracking system is sufficien for expert communication,
but if masses of users will file their problems, we will loose overview,
soon. There are too less sort criterias for subcomponents, OS-Versions,
LibO version and and and, afaik we don't have an useful permissions
management ... . I'm afraid we will run into problems. Is there any
discussion concerning solutions for these problems?



'Masses of users' will not know how to properly report bugs.

As I have advocated in the past (on this and the OOo list), I would
suggest a two-tiered system - a simple bug reporting page for end users,
where they can report bugs, document format/compatibility problems and
feature requests. This page should simply require a validly formatted
email address, and should not require the user to create an account or
'log in' to anything.

This page should also be as simple as possible - ie, make it very easy
to pick one of the two main categories (Bug or Feature Request), and if
it is a bug, is it a document format/compatibility problem or 'Other'
(description). For the former, provide a simple way to upload the
document exhibiting the problem (after a prominent warning about
removing confidential information of course).

Volunteers would then manage these reports, verifying them, checking for
duplicate/existing bugs, asking for additional info from the reporter if
needed, etc - then, only once a bug has been verified, it would be
entered into the real bug tracker by the volunteer, who would make sure
it got reported correctly. If it is a complex feature request, the
volunteer could enter it into whatever 'Idea Discussion' system is
implemented, which would then also automatically open a corresponding
bug for tracking purposes. The system should also capture the reporters
email address when it is initially reported, and if/when the volunteer
enters the actual bug, the system should automatically generate an email
to the OP thanking them for their contribution and include a link to the
final bug report so the OP can track its progress if desired.
  
For years I have been saying exactly this.  OOo has a bug reporting 
system that is TOTALLY WORTHLESS for ordinary end users, they will 
simply give up in frustration and stop using the software, going back to 
MS Office.  The way of solving this problem as described above is 
exactly what I have always thought that should be done your certainly 
have my +1 here!


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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Rainer Bielefeld]

Andre Schnabel schrieb:


E.g. we urgently need a team that will be triaging, prioritizing and
reassigning bugs.


Hi,

I can take the same role as I used to do at OOo.


So if anybody is willing to help with this (establishing and later
work within these processes). we might build a small team and then
discuss the issue.


May be we open some Task-Issues at FreeDesktop Bugzilla how to improve 
the system? I am pretty sure that that will work if interested people 
(with permissions for (FreeDesktop Bugzilla) will watch that Issues. I 
will think about this issue and Initiate such Bugzilla improvement 
process during following weekend.


CU

Rainer

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Andre Schnabel]

Hi,

> Von: Rainer Bielefeld
> Gesendet: 11.11.10 15:47 Uhr

> 
> the current bug tracking system is sufficien for expert communication, 
> but if masses of users will file their problems, we will loose overview, 
> soon. There are too less sort criterias for subcomponents, OS-Versions, 
> LibO version and and and, afaik we don't have an useful permissions 
> management ... . I'm afraid we will run into problems. Is there any 
> discussion concerning solutions for these problems?

well, as you see "discussion" is actually going on. Problem is, that
we need to move from "discussion" to "action" at some point. 

For the moment (and next few months) we will (have to) use freedesktop's
bugzilla. This is just because we should first setup the foundation in
a legal way, establish shome better coordination for admin teams ...

But even during this period we should work on improvements and processes.
E.g. we urgently need a team that will be triaging, prioritizing and 
reassigning bugs. This team would need to define some rules how to
deal with bugreports (e.g. criteria for severity and priority, how to identify 
bugs that need to be fixed for the next release or should be included
in bugfix releases). This rules might be followed, no matter what tracking
system we use in future.

So if anybody is willing to help with this (establishing and later
work within these processes). we might build a small team and then 
discuss the issue.

regards,

André


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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Rainer Bielefeld]

Charles Marcus schrieb:


As I have advocated in the past (on this and the OOo list), I would
suggest a two-tiered system - a simple bug reporting page for end users


Hi,

that's something different from the problems I currently see.

I doubt that Libre Office can abandon a complex bug tracking system with 
selections similar to current OOo Issue tracker. At least we should have 
a correct LibO version picker, more than "WIN all"?


And I doubt that a sandbox for DAUs will be a general solution. May be 
it can be an additional possibility for users with "fear of contact", 
but IMHO hundreds of power users, who will come from OOo to LibO soon

;-)
will estimate something similar to OOo Issue Tracker or Mozilla Buzgilla 
for LibO.


Rainer

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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[BRM]

- Original Message 

> From: Charles Marcus 
> To: discuss@documentfoundation.org
> Sent: Thu, November 11, 2010 10:29:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla
> 
> On 2010-11-11 9:47 AM, Rainer Bielefeld wrote:
> > the current bug tracking  system is sufficien for expert communication,
> > but if masses of users  will file their problems, we will loose overview,
> > soon. There are too  less sort criterias for subcomponents, OS-Versions,
> > LibO version and and  and, afaik we don't have an useful permissions
> > management ... . I'm  afraid we will run into problems. Is there any
> > discussion concerning  solutions for these problems?
> 
> 'Masses of users' will not know how to  properly report bugs.
> 
> As I have advocated in the past (on this and the  OOo list), I would
> suggest a two-tiered system - a simple bug reporting page  for end users,
> where they can report bugs, document format/compatibility  problems and
> feature requests. This page should simply require a validly  formatted
> email address, and should not require the user to create an account  or
> 'log in' to anything.

Mozilla resolved the issue for Firefox/Thunderbird by having a multi-tier 
system:

1. If you are reporting a feature request, then yes you need an account to 
their 
bugzilla to enter it.
2. If you are reporting crashes, then Firefox/Thunderbird bring up a special 
crash dialog for the user to enter what they were doing and any other comments 
when the crash occurred; it then takes care of submitting things per process.

This seems to cover most use cases. The majority of users will not care about 
feature requests - just making it so it doesn't crash.
Those that do care about feature requests should probably be required to login 
to bugzilla; in the alternative, I'd suggest that they first be forced to 
communicate with the developers who can then enter a bugzilla request and CC 
them.

As I mentioned, this seems to work pretty well for Mozilla and their various 
projects. Gentoo does the same; though they also follow the alternative.

And yes, I've submitted bugs to both projects and have gone through getting 
accounts - it's really not that much of a hassle to do. If you really wanted to 
make that less of a hassle, then integrate OpenID or something similar for the 
bugzilla login - since Yahoo, Gmail, Facebook, and numerous others support 
OpenID, compatible, and similar methods - so users would be able to use their 
e-mail to login and not have to worry about passwords; at the same time it 
keeps 
the system clutter free from bug spamming since not just anyone could enter a 
bug, those that do can be tracked, and spam-bots could be denied.

$0.02

Ben


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Re: [tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Charles Marcus]

On 2010-11-11 9:47 AM, Rainer Bielefeld wrote:
> the current bug tracking system is sufficien for expert communication,
> but if masses of users will file their problems, we will loose overview,
> soon. There are too less sort criterias for subcomponents, OS-Versions,
> LibO version and and and, afaik we don't have an useful permissions
> management ... . I'm afraid we will run into problems. Is there any
> discussion concerning solutions for these problems?

'Masses of users' will not know how to properly report bugs.

As I have advocated in the past (on this and the OOo list), I would
suggest a two-tiered system - a simple bug reporting page for end users,
where they can report bugs, document format/compatibility problems and
feature requests. This page should simply require a validly formatted
email address, and should not require the user to create an account or
'log in' to anything.

This page should also be as simple as possible - ie, make it very easy
to pick one of the two main categories (Bug or Feature Request), and if
it is a bug, is it a document format/compatibility problem or 'Other'
(description). For the former, provide a simple way to upload the
document exhibiting the problem (after a prominent warning about
removing confidential information of course).

Volunteers would then manage these reports, verifying them, checking for
duplicate/existing bugs, asking for additional info from the reporter if
needed, etc - then, only once a bug has been verified, it would be
entered into the real bug tracker by the volunteer, who would make sure
it got reported correctly. If it is a complex feature request, the
volunteer could enter it into whatever 'Idea Discussion' system is
implemented, which would then also automatically open a corresponding
bug for tracking purposes. The system should also capture the reporters
email address when it is initially reported, and if/when the volunteer
enters the actual bug, the system should automatically generate an email
to the OP thanking them for their contribution and include a link to the
final bug report so the OP can track its progress if desired.

-- 

Best regards,

Charles

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[tdf-discuss] FreeDesktop Bugzilla

[Rainer Bielefeld]

Hi,

the current bug tracking system is sufficien for expert communication, 
but if masses of users will file their problems, we will loose overview, 
soon. There are too less sort criterias for subcomponents, OS-Versions, 
LibO version and and and, afaik we don't have an useful permissions 
management ... . I'm afraid we will run into problems. Is there any 
discussion concerning solutions for these problems?


Best regards

Rainer Bielefeld

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