Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-10-20 4:52 AM, Mélodie wrote: I've used Quote Colors for quite some time, at each update of TB I get error messages, then mysteriously all starts to work again within a couple of days without any intervention from my part, and without an update to QC (is working at the moment). It is called a compatibility update... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Le 10/09/11 13:31, Ken Springer a écrit : Seriously, though, I checked the source for your message, and we both are using Thunderbird 6. Within the last week, I learned about the QuoteCollapse add-on. It takes each quoted section of a reply, and collapses it to one line. There's a little plus sign that will let you expand that section to full length. It's great for those posts where there's been no trimming, but lots of replies. At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of trimming, too. Add it to your TB, I'd like to know what you think of it. It may do a lot to solve your issues and concerns. If the author for Quote Colors would make that add-on compatible with TB 6, then replying would be easier, IMO. I've used Quote Colors for quite some time, at each update of TB I get error messages, then mysteriously all starts to work again within a couple of days without any intervention from my part, and without an update to QC (is working at the moment). regards -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 10/18/11 11:14 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: Sorry Ken, feeling grumpy. No offense taken, Andrew. I hate spammers! Ditto, as well as thieves. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 7.0.1 Thunderbird 7.0.1 LibreOffice 3.3.4 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
When folks choose not to follow those rules, the system breaks down and less gets accomplished. Just spent the last hour deleting spam, freezing spammer accounts, disallowing spammer IP addresses on an OOo Forum, come here and see people still arguing about top or bottom posting Sorry Ken, feeling grumpy. I hate spammers! -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 10/17/2011 4:58 AM, Wolf Halton wrote: What gives anybody the right to rag about others' correspondence style, really? If you are doing individual emails between friends, no one really, IMO, other than your friends. And I do have a friend I've taken to task about his random method of replying to emails, especially as it pertains to our efforts to start a business. But this is not email amongst friends. This is group of individuals trying to communicate and share information. In any group, you have to have a set of rules everyone must follow if the group is to function successfully. It doesn't matter if the group is a car club, church group, management structure of a company, local government, examples could be almost limitless. When folks choose not to follow those rules, the system breaks down and less gets accomplished. Forums are a good example of this. Ever read the last message in a forum, then spend15 minutes searching for the message the last poster was replying to? Or, read a long post, and want to try to sort things in that post chronologically when some people have top posted, some have bottom posted, and others have interspersed? :-) Personally, I've got better things to do than scroll back and forth through jumbled posts and long forum threads, which is why I don't use forums on a regular basis. They waste my time. Which is easier to search through, a filing cabinet where everything is organized by some system, or a filing cabinet where everything is just tossed in the drawer? If everyone in a group, like this newsgroup, does whatever they want, you have example two of the filing cabinet. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 7.0.1 Thunderbird 7.0.1 LibreOffice 3.3.4 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi, Just to add to the mix. My email client on android always makes me top-post, adding the original post on the bottom. It is interesting that people take the posting style so personally when they have not got enough information. It is quite alright to give me (or people who use Androids) special dispensation, if you want to, but that is not the point. What gives anybody the right to rag about others' correspondence style, really? These are people. not machines. The reader is unlikely to hard crash when presented with an unexpected top post, or hang until reboot when presented with the awful "interspersed" answer style. Personally, I would rather see a person's answer at the top of the post, and if I am unsure of the context, I can read the (usually un-pruned) previous message string below. Happy Monday, Wolf -- This Apt Has Super Cow Powers - http://sourcefreedom.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Excuse me. I didn't start this thread. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Mark Wielaard [mailto:m...@klomp.org] Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 01:03 To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Subject: RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? Dear Dennis, On Sun, October 2, 2011 22:00, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: > Mark, I think my question was concrete and very clear: > "> > How about you just read the goddamn RFC's for email protocol and stop > "> > whining about it? > "> Which RFC's are you talking about? Numbers please. > > I don't see how RFC 1885 can be meant. RFC 1885 is one of the inspirations for the document foundation netiquette page: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette "These guidelines have been inspired by Mozilla Posting Guidelines, with important additions from http://linux.sgms-centre.com/misc/netiquette.php and http://www.woodgate.org/FAQs/netiquette.html. Original Netiquette guidelines: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855. Netiquette on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netiquette. Other useful information about the Netiquette: http://www.livinginternet.com/i/ia_nq.htm."; They are just guidelines, but ones which are generally considered good practice on mailing lists. Please read them and try to follow them as much as possible to keep discussions as pleasant and productive. With respect to your question on top-vs-bottom-posting, the netiquette gives a guideline, it is best to just follow that and use some tools that facilitate the bottom-post/interspersed-style. And please refer to the section on "Let Sleeping Dogs Lie". We all have out pet-peeves that we would like to discuss and rehash indefinitely. Please resist the urge. Thanks, Mark -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Dear Dennis, On Sun, October 2, 2011 22:00, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: > Mark, I think my question was concrete and very clear: > "> > How about you just read the goddamn RFC's for email protocol and stop > "> > whining about it? > "> Which RFC's are you talking about? Numbers please. > > I don't see how RFC 1885 can be meant. RFC 1885 is one of the inspirations for the document foundation netiquette page: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette "These guidelines have been inspired by Mozilla Posting Guidelines, with important additions from http://linux.sgms-centre.com/misc/netiquette.php and http://www.woodgate.org/FAQs/netiquette.html. Original Netiquette guidelines: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855. Netiquette on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netiquette. Other useful information about the Netiquette: http://www.livinginternet.com/i/ia_nq.htm."; They are just guidelines, but ones which are generally considered good practice on mailing lists. Please read them and try to follow them as much as possible to keep discussions as pleasant and productive. With respect to your question on top-vs-bottom-posting, the netiquette gives a guideline, it is best to just follow that and use some tools that facilitate the bottom-post/interspersed-style. And please refer to the section on "Let Sleeping Dogs Lie". We all have out pet-peeves that we would like to discuss and rehash indefinitely. Please resist the urge. Thanks, Mark -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Oh my, not this again... I should write a plug-in that detects bottom / top posting and then either: Filters the type you do not like, or, moves all top / bottom postings to the bottom / top. If there is sufficient time to argue this, can someone perhaps stop by and help me flatten some boards (for drawer faces, they are long over due), fix a leaky sink, make contributions to the documentation, and help me finish a nice bottle of a yummy beverage. -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Mark, I think my question was concrete and very clear: "> > How about you just read the goddamn RFC's for email protocol and stop "> > whining about it? "> Which RFC's are you talking about? Numbers please. I don't see how RFC 1885 can be meant. It says nothing about in-line, bottom, or top. Well, it says a little about how to do top-posting properly, depending on how you read this part: - If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just enough text of the original to give a context. This will make sure readers understand when they start to read your response. Since NetNews, especially, is proliferated by distributing the postings from one host to another, it is possible to see a response to a message before seeing the original. Giving context helps everyone. But do not include the entire original! I need to do that better. NetNews (NNTP) is not being used here at [tdf-discuss], and there are other things that are so 1995 in RFC 1885 (which is also not an IETF Standard, for those who like to use the "standard" word). But that is the extent of what it says about organizing replies to lists and news groups. (I am more concerned about [libreoffice-users] hostility, though.) There are other things, such as - Limit line length to fewer than 65 characters and end a line with a carriage return. which made a lot of sense if you were using an ASCII terminal or a TTY printer. If someone tells me it is critical to using a brailler or text-to-speech today, I will pay a lot more attention. - Dennis E. Hamilton tools for document interoperability, <http://nfoWorks.org/> dennis.hamil...@acm.org gsm: +1-206-779-9430 @orcmid -Original Message- From: Mark Wielaard [mailto:m...@klomp.org] Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 11:59 To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Subject: RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? Hi, On Sun, October 2, 2011 20:29, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: > > How about you just read the goddamn RFC's for email protocol and stop > > whining about it? > Which RFC's are you talking about? Numbers please. Please don't top-post (fixed it for you in this message). I assume the reference is to basic netiquette, which is RFC 1885. But for this list, please refer to (which is also in the mailinglist footer): http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette Thanks, Mark -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi, On Sun, October 2, 2011 20:29, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: > > How about you just read the goddamn RFC's for email protocol and stop > > whining about it? > Which RFC's are you talking about? Numbers please. Please don't top-post (fixed it for you in this message). I assume the reference is to basic netiquette, which is RFC 1885. But for this list, please refer to (which is also in the mailinglist footer): http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette Thanks, Mark -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Which RFC's are you talking about? Numbers please. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Mark Preston [mailto:m...@mpreston.demon.co.uk] Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2011 06:12 To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? How about you just read the goddamn RFC's for email protocol and stop whining about it? [ ... ] -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
How about you just read the goddamn RFC's for email protocol and stop whining about it? On 01/10/2011 23:26, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: > > > -Original Message- > From: Tim Schofield [mailto:t...@weberpafrica.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 14:03 > To: discuss@documentfoundation.org > Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List > Guidelines Page? > > On 30 September 2011 02:46, NoOp wrote: > >> I must say that I *am* surprised that LO haven't the technical/political >> ability/tenacity to properly post information regarding this issue in >> the same manner as the links provided (OOo, Mozilla, Ubuntu, et al). >> > > It may be possible they have important things to do? > > > How about a monthly FAQ message that > establishes what constitutes appropriate > etiquette? This should be customized > for each list separately. > > There could be all facts applicable to > the specific list, including the > ever-popular unsubscribe instructions, > what the subject matter of the list is, > writing subject lines, finding other places > to play and additional sources, etc. > > It would be good to say what actions > arouse moderator actions and that nothing > else does. > > -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
-Original Message- From: Tim Schofield [mailto:t...@weberpafrica.com] Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 14:03 To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page? On 30 September 2011 02:46, NoOp wrote: > I must say that I *am* surprised that LO haven't the technical/political > ability/tenacity to properly post information regarding this issue in > the same manner as the links provided (OOo, Mozilla, Ubuntu, et al). > It may be possible they have important things to do? How about a monthly FAQ message that establishes what constitutes appropriate etiquette? This should be customized for each list separately. There could be all facts applicable to the specific list, including the ever-popular unsubscribe instructions, what the subject matter of the list is, writing subject lines, finding other places to play and additional sources, etc. It would be good to say what actions arouse moderator actions and that nothing else does. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 30 September 2011 02:46, NoOp wrote: > I must say that I *am* surprised that LO haven't the technical/political > ability/tenacity to properly post information regarding this issue in > the same manner as the links provided (OOo, Mozilla, Ubuntu, et al). > It may be possible they have important things to do? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Hi Gary, NoOp wrote (30-09-11 03:46) After all that + discussions on the -user list it seems that LO doesn't really care to provide any specific rules/regulations/FAQ regarding Top/Interspersed/Bottom posting on any of their lists. [...] Has not yet been forgotten. But to manage expectations: it won't be a medicine for all cures you know ;-) -- - Cor - http://nl.libreoffice.org -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
Top posted on purpose. After all that + discussions on the -user list it seems that LO doesn't really care to provide any specific rules/regulations/FAQ regarding Top/Interspersed/Bottom posting on any of their lists. So I'll abandon the topic and in the future when this issue comes up simply reply that on LO lists it's WFC (WhoFinallyCares - to be polite). I must say that I *am* surprised that LO haven't the technical/political ability/tenacity to properly post information regarding this issue in the same manner as the links provided (OOo, Mozilla, Ubuntu, et al). May you all endure the continued threads that are liable to crop up regarding this in each list in the future. On 09/07/2011 05:16 PM, NoOp wrote: > For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please > consider bottom posting with interspersed replies. > > I realiz(s)e that the existing: > http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ > doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom > posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to: > http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to: > http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html > which includes this bit: > http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3 > > > 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text? > > Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom, > and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially > people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would > qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if > they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted > text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will > not work, if you place the quoted text below your response. > > Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but > since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no > idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the > referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on. > In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for > people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire > article, if the context is not obvious. > > And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see > the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.) > > Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of > quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote, > in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text > you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer > to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can > delete these parts. > > So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste > time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can > achieve by such simple means? > > > and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the > desired guideline. > > Samples of similar on other lists: > > http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html > > Top-posting vs bottom-posting. > > Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it > the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates > about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the > forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with > trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is > equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place > your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon. > The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting. > > > http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists > > Proper quoting: > > Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is > easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules: > > > > Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to. > ... > > > and even: > http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html > > Replying > When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your > response with their questions, both so you can answer the actual > question that was asked, and so everyone else has some idea what you are > talking about. It is also customary to limit your quoting to the minimum > possible to get your point across. Take the time to be considerate, > remember those subscribers who have slow, expensive connections. > > > Note: that last is liable to go away given the recent > transition/announcements by Apache regarding mail lists... but it's > worth mentioning anyway. > > Eventually I hope that LO will actually include a link to general > posting guidelines on the >
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/12/11 2:10 PM, Tanstaafl wrote: On 2011-09-10 7:31 AM, Ken Springer wrote: At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of trimming, too. No, no, NO... trimming should still be required. All QuoteCollapse does is spare me a lot of pain when I encounter morons who refuse to trim posts... The inherent problem with trimming is the danger of a message being trimmed to the point where the point of the conversation is lost, or the meaning of the conversation has changed. Another problem is when a new viewer comes to the conversation somewhere in the middle. Instead of having *all* of the conversation available to view in a single window, the new viewer now has to sort back though all the reference messages and try to keep track of which message comes first. I would rather have them available in one place, rather than scattered all over the place. :-) FYI, I see no reason to call someone a moron because you don't like the way another person replies to a message. :-) -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-12 8:42 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 05:06:49PM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote: On 2011-09-11 9:47 PM, Ken Springer wrote: Even if they did push it through, if no one enforces the eventual rule, the time will be wasted. I'd prefer interspersion, as I almost always have to scroll around somewhere in order to remember what was being replied to. Most people who advocate for bottom posting really mean inline, aka 'interspersed' posting anyway... I think you will find that most people are smart enough to know the difference. I think you overestimate the intelligence of 'most people'. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 05:06:49PM -0400, Tanstaafl wrote: > On 2011-09-11 9:47 PM, Ken Springer wrote: > >Even if they did push it through, if no one enforces the eventual rule, > >the time will be wasted. I'd prefer interspersion, as I almost always > >have to scroll around somewhere in order to remember what was being > >replied to. > > Most people who advocate for bottom posting really mean inline, aka > 'interspersed' posting anyway... I think you will find that most people are smart enough to know the difference. -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-11 9:47 PM, Ken Springer wrote: Even if they did push it through, if no one enforces the eventual rule, the time will be wasted. I'd prefer interspersion, as I almost always have to scroll around somewhere in order to remember what was being replied to. Most people who advocate for bottom posting really mean inline, aka 'interspersed' posting anyway... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 2011-09-10 7:31 AM, Ken Springer wrote: At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of trimming, too. No, no, NO... trimming should still be required. All QuoteCollapse does is spare me a lot of pain when I encounter morons who refuse to trim posts... -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/11/11 10:35 AM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: On 09/10/2011 07:31 AM, Ken Springer wrote: On 9/9/11 11:24 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: On 09/09/2011 06:05 PM, Ken Springer wrote: Read it many times. I remain unconvinced. Their points assume a single style of reading email. I don't think I agree totally. I think their points apply to reading newsgroups, not email. :-) I think the two should be kept separate since they server different purposes. Ahh, yes indeed. You are correct sir. Seriously, though, I checked the source for your message, and we both are using Thunderbird 6. Within the last week, I learned about the QuoteCollapse add-on. It takes each quoted section of a reply, and collapses it to one line. There's a little plus sign that will let you expand that section to full length. It's great for those posts where there's been no trimming, but lots of replies. I usually avoid add-ons because I consider them a potential cause for instability (well, it seemed true for web browsers). In this case, however, I made an exception. Very nice indeed. That certainly helps with all those gratuitous posters. If they care, they should write it. Yes. Or, given the resources they have, a dedicated netiquette page is just too far down the priority list, and/or no one has offered to do it. Those that feel strongly about it should push it through and do the work. I do not want them to make the decision that only bottom posting should be done. I have no desire for them to do this, I just want people to play nice. Even if they did push it through, if no one enforces the eventual rule, the time will be wasted. I'd prefer interspersion, as I almost always have to scroll around somewhere in order to remember what was being replied to. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/10/2011 07:31 AM, Ken Springer wrote: On 9/9/11 11:24 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: On 09/09/2011 06:05 PM, Ken Springer wrote: Read it many times. I remain unconvinced. Their points assume a single style of reading email. I don't think I agree totally. I think their points apply to reading newsgroups, not email. :-) I think the two should be kept separate since they server different purposes. Ahh, yes indeed. You are correct sir. Seriously, though, I checked the source for your message, and we both are using Thunderbird 6. Within the last week, I learned about the QuoteCollapse add-on. It takes each quoted section of a reply, and collapses it to one line. There's a little plus sign that will let you expand that section to full length. It's great for those posts where there's been no trimming, but lots of replies. I usually avoid add-ons because I consider them a potential cause for instability (well, it seemed true for web browsers). In this case, however, I made an exception. Very nice indeed. That certainly helps with all those gratuitous posters. If they care, they should write it. Yes. Or, given the resources they have, a dedicated netiquette page is just too far down the priority list, and/or no one has offered to do it. Those that feel strongly about it should push it through and do the work. I do not want them to make the decision that only bottom posting should be done. I have no desire for them to do this, I just want people to play nice. -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document:http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info:http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/10/11 12:25 PM, Robert Holtzman wrote: On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 05:31:50AM -0600, Ken Springer wrote: ..snip. At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of trimming, too. Of course that would screw non-TB users. Not all of them. And look at the number of untrimmed posts anyway. :-) I wasn't necessarily saying people should stop trimming altogether, it can still be useful. But it would eliminate the writer's quandary of should I trim this or should I not? And, there's nothing to stop users who have software that doesn't collapse a quote from looking around to find software that does. I would think there are dedicated newsgroup reading software that has this feature. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/7/11 6:16 PM, NoOp wrote: For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please consider bottom posting with interspersed replies. Sadly, it won't matter what rules are in effect if there is no desire to enforce them. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 05:31:50AM -0600, Ken Springer wrote: ..snip. > > At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of > trimming, too. Of course that would screw non-TB users. snip -- Bob Holtzman If you think you're getting free lunch, check the price of the beer. Key ID: 8D549279 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/9/11 11:24 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: On 09/09/2011 06:05 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 9/9/11 3:40 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: The links do not lead me to assume that top posting is expected. If the documentation group desires bottom posting only, the user should be informed when the register. Even then, I expect that most people will miss it. Expecting someone to follow a link and then follow another link seems a wee bit unlikely. Bottom posting is great when a message is not read in context of the other messages. When I read threaded messages, it is annoying to wade through the message history before I arrive at the content of interest. I might prefer, therefore, that people be prodded into seriously shortening content from all previous posters to only contain the portions relevant to their reply. If you read the Learn to Quote link on the netiquette page, it gets into why bottom posting and interspersion is or should be the desired way. Read it many times. I remain unconvinced. Their points assume a single style of reading email. I don't think I agree totally. I think their points apply to reading newsgroups, not email. :-) I think the two should be kept separate since they server different purposes. I read my email in a threaded view. Usually, I have already read everything but the latest reply, so, the the top portion of the message is not required (and is therefore ignored). Unfortunately, it is common for there to be so much of the message included, that I need to scroll to view the new text. In other words, it is less efficient and it wastes my time. (to put it into context, I have counted the steps required to get to my car when I leave work by different routes) > I receive a very large volume of email. It is usually less than 1000 messages a day, but, still, the time and physical movements to scroll to the bottom of each message is sufficient to stress my wrists and hands. So, if I can skim the new content in less than two seconds, and it takes me longer than that to even get to the new content, well, then I more than double the time I spend skimming email. The bigger concern for me is neither bottom nor top posting, it is trimming the message if you do not top post. With a top post, I can trivially see the response. "I feel your pain!" A poster in another newsgroup said that to me, and I've been looking for a place to use it! LOL I find top posted posts harder to follow the flow of the message. My preference would be interspersion, since your reply is right below the part of a post you are replying to. Top posting is like the old Karnak routine Johnny Carson had on the Tonight Show. He'd give the answer, then tell you the question inside a sealed envelope. Most of the time, when I read a top posted message, I end up scrolling through the message anyway, wondering "What the H*** is he/she talking about?":-D So I suspect it's not going to make much difference about message length whether you top, bottom, or intersperse you posts, it's going to be the poster and the tools used (i.e. what agent you are using to read the posts) that will ultimately make a post easy to read or not. Seriously, though, I checked the source for your message, and we both are using Thunderbird 6. Within the last week, I learned about the QuoteCollapse add-on. It takes each quoted section of a reply, and collapses it to one line. There's a little plus sign that will let you expand that section to full length. It's great for those posts where there's been no trimming, but lots of replies. At this point, this add-on would seem to eliminate the need of trimming, too. Add it to your TB, I'd like to know what you think of it. It may do a lot to solve your issues and concerns. If the author for Quote Colors would make that add-on compatible with TB 6, then replying would be easier, IMO. But like you, I think the LO people need to specify it directly on the page, even better would be for them to actually write their own netiquette page. If they care, they should write it. Yes. Or, given the resources they have, a dedicated netiquette page is just too far down the priority list, and/or no one has offered to do it. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/09/2011 06:05 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 9/9/11 3:40 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: The links do not lead me to assume that top posting is expected. If the documentation group desires bottom posting only, the user should be informed when the register. Even then, I expect that most people will miss it. Expecting someone to follow a link and then follow another link seems a wee bit unlikely. Bottom posting is great when a message is not read in context of the other messages. When I read threaded messages, it is annoying to wade through the message history before I arrive at the content of interest. I might prefer, therefore, that people be prodded into seriously shortening content from all previous posters to only contain the portions relevant to their reply. If you read the Learn to Quote link on the netiquette page, it gets into why bottom posting and interspersion is or should be the desired way. Read it many times. I remain unconvinced. Their points assume a single style of reading email. I read my email in a threaded view. Usually, I have already read everything but the latest reply, so, the the top portion of the message is not required (and is therefore ignored). Unfortunately, it is common for there to be so much of the message included, that I need to scroll to view the new text. In other words, it is less efficient and it wastes my time. (to put it into context, I have counted the steps required to get to my car when I leave work by different routes) I receive a very large volume of email. It is usually less than 1000 messages a day, but, still, the time and physical movements to scroll to the bottom of each message is sufficient to stress my wrists and hands. So, if I can skim the new content in less than two seconds, and it takes me longer than that to even get to the new content, well, then I more than double the time I spend skimming email. The bigger concern for me is neither bottom nor top posting, it is trimming the message if you do not top post. With a top post, I can trivially see the response. But like you, I think the LO people need to specify it directly on the page, even better would be for them to actually write their own netiquette page. If they care, they should write it. Yes. -- Andrew Pitonyak My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt Info: http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 9/9/11 3:40 PM, Andrew Douglas Pitonyak wrote: The links do not lead me to assume that top posting is expected. If the documentation group desires bottom posting only, the user should be informed when the register. Even then, I expect that most people will miss it. Expecting someone to follow a link and then follow another link seems a wee bit unlikely. Bottom posting is great when a message is not read in context of the other messages. When I read threaded messages, it is annoying to wade through the message history before I arrive at the content of interest. I might prefer, therefore, that people be prodded into seriously shortening content from all previous posters to only contain the portions relevant to their reply. If you read the Learn to Quote link on the netiquette page, it gets into why bottom posting and interspersion is or should be the desired way. But like you, I think the LO people need to specify it directly on the page, even better would be for them to actually write their own netiquette page. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.6.8 Firefox 6.0.2 Thunderbird 6.0.2 LibreOffice 3.3.3 -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Top Posting... Can we have an LO Mailing List Guidelines Page?
On 09/08/2011 07:07 AM, Robert Parker wrote: > There is one thing more irritating than top posting. People who rant about it. There was no "rant". Perhaps you might take time to read the post *and* review the threads in these lists (particularly the 'users' list? Other lists (as I've demonstrated) provide clear instructions the guidelines list users are expected to follow. The point is that LO does not, and instead uses a link to a vague wiki at the bottom of list messages rather than posting guidelines upfront. This tends to lead to ongoing debates on how list posters are to behave. As mentioned: I don't really care if the consensuses is to only top-post on these lists. My primary consideration is to have an established set of posting guidelines (as in the examples provided) so that we no longer have to resort to the 'mine is better' model. It makes it easier for all users; particularly new users as it's then rather simple to point to the guideline url/page and *politely* ask them to abide by the list guidelines. Why is it that after all of the previous debates, posts, aggravation, that LO can't just put up a page regarding list guidelines? Thats a question btw, not a "rant". Following /not/ snipped on purpose: > > On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 7:16 AM, NoOp wrote: >> For those that continue to insist on top posting on the LO lists: please >> consider bottom posting with interspersed replies. >> >> I realiz(s)e that the existing: >> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/ >> doesn't specifically clarify anything with regards to top/bottom >> posting. However at the bottom of each mail on this list is a link to: >> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette >> That page doesn't help much either, but it /does/ include a link to: >> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html >> which includes this bit: >> http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote2.html#ss2.3 >> >> >> 2.3 Why should I place my response below the quoted text? >> >> Usually, the reading-flow is from left to right and from top to bottom, >> and people expect a chronological sequence similar to this. Especially >> people who are reading a lot of articles (and who therefore would >> qualify as the ideal person to answer your question) appreciate it if >> they can read at first the text to which you are referring. The quoted >> text is some kind of help to remember the topic, which of course will >> not work, if you place the quoted text below your response. >> >> Furthermore, that's the standard. This may sound as a weak argument, but >> since people are not used to reading the other way around, they have no >> idea what you are referring to and have to go back and forth between the >> referenced articles, have to jump between different articles and so on. >> In short - reading the article becomes more and more difficult - for >> people who read many articles it is reason enough to skip the entire >> article, if the context is not obvious. >> >> And besides: doesn't it look stupid to first get the answer and then see >> the question? (Aside from Jeopardy, of course.) >> >> Furthermore, you (yes: You) save a lot of time using this way of >> quoting: You do not need to repeat what the person you refer to wrote, >> in order to show the context. You just place your comment after the text >> you wish to comment upon, and everybody immediately knows what you refer >> to. Also, you realize which text you are *not* responding to and can >> delete these parts. >> >> So: using this technique you save time, your readers don't have to waste >> time, you save bandwidth and disk-space. Isn't it great what you can >> achieve by such simple means? >> >> >> and that seems to imply that such posting styles on this list are the >> desired guideline. >> >> Samples of similar on other lists: >> >> http://www.mozilla.org/about/forums/etiquette.html >> >> Top-posting vs bottom-posting. >> >>Some people like to put reply after the quoted text, some like it >> the other way around, and still some prefer interspersed style. Debates >> about which posting style is better have led to many flame wars in the >> forums. To keep forum discussion friendly, please do interspersion with >> trimming (see above for trimming rules). For a simple reply, this is >> equivalent bottom-posting. So, remove extraneous material, and place >> your comments in logical order, after the text you are commenting upon. >> The only exceptions are the accessibility forums, which are top-posting. >> >> >> http://www.ubuntu.com/support/community/mailinglists >> >> Proper quoting: >> >> Proper quoting is very important on mailing lists, to ensure that it is >> easy to follow the conversation. There are four fundamental rules: >> >> >> >>Write your email underneath the email which you are replying to. >> ... >> >> >> and even: >> http://www.openoffice.org/ml_guidelines.html >> >> Replying >> When replying to other people it is customary to intersperse your >> respo
