Re: [tdf-discuss] using information from OOo lists for LibO marketing? (was: Fwd: [users] Licensing Details)
Thanks, Bernhard, for a reasoned and reasonable reply. For those who don't want to read all the comments, including my replies, I'll reply to the original message on the OOo list, as Drew and Andy suggested, with a reference to the Oracle announcement, as Bernhard suggests. //James On Apr 22, 2011, at 04:35 , Bernhard Dippold wrote: Hi James, all, snip About this main question: I don't know the sender, but in most cases of such mails people are not aware of sending their full address and contact details to an public mailing list when they write a mail from their office. If you cite such people you probably do them a favor if you cut this information in your reply. In this case I feel a bit different, as the sender is senior manager of an IT company. So my take is: Yes - the footer doesn't hinder you to reply to his request. I agree. snip He asked a question on the OpenOffice.org users list, not LibreOffice. Right. So if James replies, he should answer his question on the license of OpenOffice.org. What Drew and Andy don't want to support, is subversive LibreOffice marketing against OpenOffice.org. Even if the rest of the community didn't follow us by now, we don't think that OpenOffice.org is a competitor we have to fight against by all possible means. I'm not sure that using information on a public list to suggest that there might be alternatives to the option he is suggesting on the public list can be classed as by all possible means. In my eyes it is allowed to inform about LibreOffice while replying to the question on OOo license, perhaps linking to the Oracle announcement from last Friday: As there might be major modification in OpenOffice.org community and product structure, he should keep an eye on what's going on in the near future. If this announcement would cause him uncertainty about OOo's future, it might be reasonable to have a look at LibreOffice. That was exactly my thought, although not specified in my comments. He could be going from one closed alternative to another when an open system is available. We should not compete against each other - especially in a situation where none of us know, what will happen to the OOo community. Perhaps we get a chance to re-unite: Then competitive marketing might be an issue that adds negative feelings we should avoid. If this became the case, I would suggest that it was because Oracle dropped OOo, in which case OOo is joining LibO not some kind of merge. Competitive marketing is not the way to go for LibreOffice: Italo Vignoli, our marketing spokesperson, mentioned this point in several mails on various lists: We stand *for* our community and our product and not *against* others. This is the strongest argument and the one I needed. To forward such a message here was wrong I have to say BS here. The information is already public, and likely to be seen by many/most on the LibO discuss list. I agree, but this doesn't mean that this topic is wrong on our discuss list. You might have asked your question without copying the OP mail - and have chosen a more descriptive subject ;-) Matter of opinion - see above. But this is not the way I think is the official position of the LibreOffice community. Even if they decided not to follow our way by one or another reason, these are the people we worked with for several years - and we liked working together. Florian was very sad that he had to resign from his OOo Marketing Lead post - and so did the former OOo Community Council members here in the SC as well as many others. Not valid reasons. Tolerance is important - for different opinions as well as for working in two communities. But that's just my personal opinion... [...] If James truly believes it is appropriate to respond to a query of this nature, made on the OpenOffice.org mailing list, with a recommendation to use a different application then he should (must) be willing to do so in the open, on that mailing list. It's just a gut feeling, but this seems to be more honest than a private mail. A mail to the users list will have to be phrased in a way telling just the facts about LibreOffice without doing any harm to OOo. A private mail could be considered as bad marketing for us, because LibreOffice stands for openness and transparency. I agree. snip In my eyes this is totally different: While Microsoft tried to turn the EU position back to proprietary licensed software lock-in, you got notice of someone willing to switch from Microsoft to OSS software. And as OpenOffice.org is not (or not only) our competitor, their mailing lists are not just an arbitrary public list. I disagree. It's good for us, if companies help others to switch from MS to OOo, because - there is too less infrastructure (with professional support) and documentation on migrating to LibreOffice. - as we will prove to be better than
Auto Reply: Re: [tdf-discuss] using information from OOo lists for LibO marketing? (was: Fwd: [users] Licensing Details)
Hi, I am out of office till 27th April, 2011 Call me if it is an urgent issue. (Mob: +91 9886 46 3370) Ciao and regards TG -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: Auto Reply: Re: [tdf-discuss] using information from OOo lists for LibO marketing? (was: Fwd: [users] Licensing Details)
Now _that_ was an interesting input! On Apr 22, 2011, at 09:53 , tehmurasp.ghy...@oracle.com wrote: -!! Hi, I am out of office till 27th April, 2011 Call me if it is an urgent issue. (Mob: +91 9886 46 3370) Ciao and regards TG -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] using information from OOo lists for LibO marketing? (was: Fwd: [users] Licensing Details)
OK, it feels like I've created the never-ending story here. After thinking about possible comments over breakfast, I've come to the conclusion that there is no way I can write the intended message on the OOo list without breaching Bernhard's desire not to rile former colleagues. They must be feeling unsecure enough after Oracle's press release. So I've decided, regretfully, that there's nothing I can do. However, one thing I do think is extremely interesting is that no-one has yet answered the OPs message on the list, notwithstanding that it has been up for 16 hours. This kind of simple question usually gets a number of swift replies within a matter of an hour or so, particularly from people who want to take part in the community but perhaps don't think they have the technical competence to contribute in that way. So perhaps the community over on OOo is feeling a little bruised and deserted after Oracle's announcement. //James -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] using information from OOo lists for LibO marketing? (was: Fwd: [users] Licensing Details)
On Fri, 2011-04-22 at 10:52 +0200, James Wilde wrote: snip I've come to the conclusion that there is no way I can write the intended message on the OOo list without breaching Bernhard's desire not to rile former colleagues. snip However, one thing I do think is extremely interesting is that no-one has yet answered the OPs message on the list, Hi James, If I may - you intention for being connected to both projects I take it, is to support both projects, yes? Then why not simply respond to him on the OpenOffice.org mail list and answer his question as asked - from the OpenOffice.org perspective? Thanks Drew -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] using information from OOo lists for LibO marketing? (was: Fwd: [users] Licensing Details)
On Apr 22, 2011, at 13:55 , drew wrote: On Fri, 2011-04-22 at 10:52 +0200, James Wilde wrote: snip I've come to the conclusion that there is no way I can write the intended message on the OOo list without breaching Bernhard's desire not to rile former colleagues. snip However, one thing I do think is extremely interesting is that no-one has yet answered the OPs message on the list, Hi James, If I may - you intention for being connected to both projects I take it, is to support both projects, yes? Actually, no, Drew. I was a firm believer in OOo at one time, especially when I was using linux for my workstation. I became a bit dubious when Oracle bought it, but continued using it. I joined LibO when it started, but didn't convert to using LibO until there was a stable version out. It's just lethargy that's stopped me from quitting the OOo lists. Also, until recently, when the threads started to diverge, there was a good deal of useful stuff in the OOo user list. You will remember furthermore that there was a low signal to noise ratio in the LibO lists at the beginning. ;) Then why not simply respond to him on the OpenOffice.org mail list and answer his question as asked - from the OpenOffice.org perspective? I no longer have any interest in supporting OOo now that there is a genuinely non-commercial alternative. The reason I originally thought it would be a good idea to contact the OP was not at all to do with any thought of competition between different ODT offerings. It was that the bigger the user base for the product I use (and now support in a modest way with a bit of moderation) the better the chances of financial support which will allow LibO developers to keep on providing me with a fantastic piece of software. That was also why I jumped in on the side of those who wanted to actually do something about the EU choosing Office without a cost-benefit analysis, but there again, there appeared to be a lack of enthusiasm from those who carry weight. //James -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] using information from OOo lists for LibO marketing? (was: Fwd: [users] Licensing Details)
Hi James, all, I'm not part of the SC, but like Drew and Andy a longtime OOo community member - perhaps I can shed a bit of light on the issue... James Wilde schrieb: On Apr 21, 2011, at 23:09 , drew wrote: On Thu, 2011-04-21 at 22:40 +0200, M Henri Day wrote: 2011/4/21 drewd...@baseanswers.com On Thu, 2011-04-21 at 19:05 +0200, M Henri Day wrote: 2011/4/21 James Wildejames.wi...@sunde-wilde.com Just got this message in my inbox. I wonder if sending him a note about LibO would be considered to be in breach of the comprehensive warning at the bottom. About this main question: I don't know the sender, but in most cases of such mails people are not aware of sending their full address and contact details to an public mailing list when they write a mail from their office. If you cite such people you probably do them a favor if you cut this information in your reply. In this case I feel a bit different, as the sender is senior manager of an IT company. So my take is: Yes - the footer doesn't hinder you to reply to his request. But... //James Begin forwarded message: From: SAEED AHMEDsaeed.ah...@3i-infotech.xxx Date: April 20, 2011 15:34:31 GMT+02:00 To: us...@openoffice.orgus...@openoffice.org Subject: [users] Licensing Details [...] That's all well and good - but - contacting him is simply _wrong_ IMO. In my eyes it depends on the content of this reply. He asked a question on the OpenOffice.org users list, not LibreOffice. Right. So if James replies, he should answer his question on the license of OpenOffice.org. What Drew and Andy don't want to support, is subversive LibreOffice marketing against OpenOffice.org. Even if the rest of the community didn't follow us by now, we don't think that OpenOffice.org is a competitor we have to fight against by all possible means. In my eyes it is allowed to inform about LibreOffice while replying to the question on OOo license, perhaps linking to the Oracle announcement from last Friday: As there might be major modification in OpenOffice.org community and product structure, he should keep an eye on what's going on in the near future. If this announcement would cause him uncertainty about OOo's future, it might be reasonable to have a look at LibreOffice. We should not compete against each other - especially in a situation where none of us know, what will happen to the OOo community. Perhaps we get a chance to re-unite: Then competitive marketing might be an issue that adds negative feelings we should avoid. Competitive marketing is not the way to go for LibreOffice: Italo Vignoli, our marketing spokesperson, mentioned this point in several mails on various lists: We stand *for* our community and our product and not *against* others. To forward such a message here was wrong I agree, but this doesn't mean that this topic is wrong on our discuss list. You might have asked your question without copying the OP mail - and have chosen a more descriptive subject ;-) and such actions should NOT be tolerated. As non-native speaker, this part sounds too hard to me. It's a valid question how we interact with the OOo community we left behind us. And if people want to use information from over there to do marketing against them, nobody will be able to hinder them. But this is not the way I think is the official position of the LibreOffice community. Even if they decided not to follow our way by one or another reason, these are the people we worked with for several years - and we liked working together. Florian was very sad that he had to resign from his OOo Marketing Lead post - and so did the former OOo Community Council members here in the SC as well as many others. Tolerance is important - for different opinions as well as for working in two communities. But that's just my personal opinion... [...] If James truly believes it is appropriate to respond to a query of this nature, made on the OpenOffice.org mailing list, with a recommendation to use a different application then he should (must) be willing to do so in the open, on that mailing list. It's just a gut feeling, but this seems to be more honest than a private mail. A mail to the users list will have to be phrased in a way telling just the facts about LibreOffice without doing any harm to OOo. A private mail could be considered as bad marketing for us, because LibreOffice stands for openness and transparency. [...] Recently there was some discussion about the decision of the European Union to renegotiate with Microsoft about new licenses for Office, [...] I don't know whether TDF actually did anything about it, but there was a lot of agreement that they should do. I think a SC member did blog about this topic, but I'm not sure. Now someone has made information available on a public list which could be beneficial to TDF in a similar though smaller way, and I have decided that I see no problem with making use of that public information. In my eyes this is
