[OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Sanghee Shin]

Dear All, 

It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case. 

I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you 
should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G 
Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 
(nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those 
controversial ones. 

I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation 
breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view. 

However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides from 
my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this issue 
more openly to reach conclusions. 

I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all 
around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because 
this is the matter of OSGeo conference. 

I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s 
opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn how 
to apply CoC in real cases. 

*Sidenote for defending myself:
- Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln in 
Dalivision”[2]
- Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], 
which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) 
in/around Asia. 

All the best, 

Sanghee

[0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
[1]http://2015.foss4g.org 
[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
[3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Jo Cook]

Hi Sanghee,

My personal opinion (as a female member of OSGeo) is that these slides are
certainly NOT offensive to women. From your description, they are being
used in context and there should be no problems with that.

Jo

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Sanghee Shin  wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>
> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you
> should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G
> Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6
> (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those
> controversial ones.
>
> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation
> breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>
> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides
> from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss
> this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
>
> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from
> all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well,
> because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
>
> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s
> opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn
> how to apply CoC in real cases.
>
> *Sidenote for defending myself:
> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named
> “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’
> Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of
> Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>
> All the best,
>
> Sanghee
>
> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
> ---
> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
> http://2015.foss4g.org
> Twitter: @foss4g
> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org
>
>
>
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss




-- 
*Jo Cook*
Astun Technology Ltd, The Coach House, 17 West Street, Epsom, Surrey, KT18
7RL, UK
t:+44 7930 524 155
iShare - Data integration and publishing platform


*

 Company registration no. 5410695. Registered in England and Wales.
Registered office: 120 Manor Green Road, Epsom, Surrey, KT19 8LN VAT no.
864201149.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses]

Hello Sanghee,

> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you 
> should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G 
> Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 
> (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those 
> controversial ones.

I'd like to have a little bit more of context to make up my mind

* Who asked to remove the slides?

* Is «being possibily offensive to women» the only reason it was given to you?

On the other hand, obviously you have you own reasons to keep the
slides, but those reasons are not clear in the presentation because it
lacks of... well, it lacks of someone *explaining* what are we seeing.

May be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more
suitable for being in the landing page of the Conference.

But this is just my POV.

Best regards,
-- 
Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses
Valencia (España)
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Charles Schweik]

OK, I raised the question of appropriate content to Jeff after I looked at
the FOSS4G website for a reference for a grant proposal I am writing at a
time when I was thinking specifically about diversity recruitment to
GeoForAll.

By asking Jeff about it offline, I was raising the question that those
slides could turn some women off who are considering attending and I think
those kinds of signals are moving the community the wrong direction, and
that perhaps the author should consider this. I raised this because I have
been in conferences where I've witnessed women being offended by things
happening on stage and I think as a community we want to be sensitive to
this since we are hopeful for more women to become engaged in FOSS4G.

>From my eye going through the slides, I didn't understand (and still don't)
why zoom in on the Dali image needed to be on the slideshow. After a more
careful examination -- that other viewers won't likely do -- I see that the
first slide is an enlargement of part of that painting and then a second
picture of it hanging in some building, under the group heading of 'Seoul
is far away.' I still don't get why the enlargement is needed... but
perhaps that is just me. But I think I am still right -- some women might
be turned off to the conference by that zoom-in.

Sangee, your explanation of the side of the female models is helpful. But
some people around the world will not understand it or misinterpret its
meaning or why it is there. The 'Culture' heading helps I suppose. So at
least consider having something on those slides explaining to readers what
they represent better than they do currently.

I'll close by saying, with all due respect to Sanghee and the others in
this community who disagree with me, is that if you are trying to encourage
people to come, and especially if your email footer says 'Towards
Diversity' as a goal of the conference, then the 'Precautionary Principle'
might be wise to follow. If I was doing the advertising to recruit people,
I'd be conservative and wouldn't put up imagery that could turn off
potential attendees.

I'm not advocating any kind of censorship here, and I am not judging
whether a COC is necessary or not. I just was simply raising a concern
about underlying or subtle messages embedded in a 'commercial' being used
to recruit people to our global conference.

It appears that others disagree with this view.

Charlie Schweik


On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:35 AM, Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses <
pfer...@osgeo.org> wrote:

> Hello Sanghee,
>
> > I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why
> you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of
> FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say,
> slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are
> those controversial ones.
>
> I'd like to have a little bit more of context to make up my mind
>
> * Who asked to remove the slides?
>
> * Is «being possibily offensive to women» the only reason it was given to
> you?
>
> On the other hand, obviously you have you own reasons to keep the
> slides, but those reasons are not clear in the presentation because it
> lacks of... well, it lacks of someone *explaining* what are we seeing.
>
> May be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more
> suitable for being in the landing page of the Conference.
>
> But this is just my POV.
>
> Best regards,
> --
> Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses
> Valencia (España)
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss




-- 
Charlie Schweik

Associate Professor, University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Dept of Environmental Conservation and Center for Public Policy and
Administration

Personal website: http://people.umass.edu/cschweik
Publications: http://works.bepress.com/charles_schweik/

Author, Internet Success: A Study of Open Source Software (MIT Press, 2012)
- see http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545


Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
A: http://five.sentenc.es
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Bart van den Eijnden]

Hi Charlie,

I actually get your point of view, and tend to agree with it.

Best regards,
Bart

> On 24 Jun 2015, at 13:42, Charles Schweik  wrote:
> 
> OK, I raised the question of appropriate content to Jeff after I looked at 
> the FOSS4G website for a reference for a grant proposal I am writing at a 
> time when I was thinking specifically about diversity recruitment to 
> GeoForAll. 
> 
> By asking Jeff about it offline, I was raising the question that those slides 
> could turn some women off who are considering attending and I think those 
> kinds of signals are moving the community the wrong direction, and that 
> perhaps the author should consider this. I raised this because I have been in 
> conferences where I've witnessed women being offended by things happening on 
> stage and I think as a community we want to be sensitive to this since we are 
> hopeful for more women to become engaged in FOSS4G.
> 
> From my eye going through the slides, I didn't understand (and still don't) 
> why zoom in on the Dali image needed to be on the slideshow. After a more 
> careful examination -- that other viewers won't likely do -- I see that the 
> first slide is an enlargement of part of that painting and then a second 
> picture of it hanging in some building, under the group heading of 'Seoul is 
> far away.' I still don't get why the enlargement is needed... but perhaps 
> that is just me. But I think I am still right -- some women might be turned 
> off to the conference by that zoom-in. 
> 
> Sangee, your explanation of the side of the female models is helpful. But 
> some people around the world will not understand it or misinterpret its 
> meaning or why it is there. The 'Culture' heading helps I suppose. So at 
> least consider having something on those slides explaining to readers what 
> they represent better than they do currently. 
> 
> I'll close by saying, with all due respect to Sanghee and the others in this 
> community who disagree with me, is that if you are trying to encourage people 
> to come, and especially if your email footer says 'Towards Diversity' as a 
> goal of the conference, then the 'Precautionary Principle' might be wise to 
> follow. If I was doing the advertising to recruit people, I'd be conservative 
> and wouldn't put up imagery that could turn off potential attendees.
> 
> I'm not advocating any kind of censorship here, and I am not judging whether 
> a COC is necessary or not. I just was simply raising a concern about 
> underlying or subtle messages embedded in a 'commercial' being used to 
> recruit people to our global conference. 
> 
> It appears that others disagree with this view. 
> 
> Charlie Schweik 
>   
> 
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:35 AM, Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses 
> mailto:pfer...@osgeo.org>> wrote:
> Hello Sanghee,
> 
> > I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you 
> > should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G 
> > Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 
> > (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those 
> > controversial ones.
> 
> I'd like to have a little bit more of context to make up my mind
> 
> * Who asked to remove the slides?
> 
> * Is «being possibily offensive to women» the only reason it was given to you?
> 
> On the other hand, obviously you have you own reasons to keep the
> slides, but those reasons are not clear in the presentation because it
> lacks of... well, it lacks of someone *explaining* what are we seeing.
> 
> May be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more
> suitable for being in the landing page of the Conference.
> 
> But this is just my POV.
> 
> Best regards,
> --
> Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses
> Valencia (España)
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org 
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Charlie Schweik
> 
> Associate Professor, University of Massachusetts, Amherst
> Dept of Environmental Conservation and Center for Public Policy and 
> Administration
> 
> Personal website: http://people.umass.edu/cschweik 
> 
> Publications: http://works.bepress.com/charles_schweik/ 
> 
> 
> Author, Internet Success: A Study of Open Source Software (MIT Press, 2012) - 
> see http://tinyurl.com/d3e4545 
> 
> 
> Q: Why is this email five sentences or less?
> A: http://five.sentenc.es 
> ___
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> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Jeff McKenna]

I thank Sanghee for bringing this to the community.  I want to point out
that having just a "Code of Conduct", words, on a website is not enough,
there needs to be a whole structure of how to handle this.  In bold
letters I want to state publicly: there is currently no implementation
plan for the OSGeo Code of Conduct.  This is not acceptable.  A few good
volunteers have been discussing offline how to setup an implementation
plan, as well as possibly even a new OSGeo committee for this, great,
but, it is still in discussion stage.  Without some sort of plan,
community members are already contacting me directly with reports, and I
have no formal way to handle these reports.  (Sanghee was nice enough to
help me solve this together publicly, but, this obviously cannot apply
to all reports)

I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code
of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed
from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity
statement.

I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to
move forward, or not at all.

-jeff


-- 
Jeff McKenna
President, OSGeo
http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna




On 2015-06-24 7:22 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote:
> Dear All,
> 
> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
> 
> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you 
> should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G 
> Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 
> (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those 
> controversial ones.
> 
> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation 
> breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
> 
> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides 
> from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this 
> issue more openly to reach conclusions.
> 
> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all 
> around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because 
> this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
> 
> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s 
> opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn 
> how to apply CoC in real cases.
> 
> *Sidenote for defending myself:
> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln 
> in Dalivision”[2]
> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], 
> which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) 
> in/around Asia.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Sanghee
> 
> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
> ---
> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
> http://2015.foss4g.org
> Twitter: @foss4g
> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Milo van der Linden]

Hi Sanghee,

Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first
reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is
well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any
offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after
looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my
opinion.

1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want
to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the
presentation.

2. In my opinion; the slide with the header "Culture" showing the row of
female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I
interpret this slide as: "Come to Korea for the beautiful women" and I
believe that is not the message you want to send under the header "Culture".

3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic
drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a "drinking game". There are a lot
of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again,
would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.

Final thought:

I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should
also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds
a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make
your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an
interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!

So thank you for that!

With respect, kind regards.





2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin :

> Dear All,
>
> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>
> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you
> should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G
> Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6
> (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those
> controversial ones.
>
> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation
> breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>
> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides
> from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss
> this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
>
> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from
> all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well,
> because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
>
> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s
> opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn
> how to apply CoC in real cases.
>
> *Sidenote for defending myself:
> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named
> “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’
> Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of
> Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>
> All the best,
>
> Sanghee
>
> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
> ---
> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
> http://2015.foss4g.org
> Twitter: @foss4g
> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org
>
>
>
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss




-- 
 [image: http://www.dogodigi.net] 
*Milo van der Linden*
web: dogodigi 
tel: +31-6-16598808
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses]

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 1:42 PM, Charles Schweik
 wrote:
> By asking Jeff about it offline, I was raising the question that those
> slides could turn some women off who are considering attending and I think
> those kinds of signals are moving the community the wrong direction, and
> that perhaps the author should consider this. I raised this because I have
> been in conferences where I've witnessed women being offended by things
> happening on stage and I think as a community we want to be sensitive to
> this since we are hopeful for more women to become engaged in FOSS4G.
>
> From my eye going through the slides, I didn't understand (and still don't)
> why zoom in on the Dali image needed to be on the slideshow. After a more
> careful examination -- that other viewers won't likely do -- I see that the
> first slide is an enlargement of part of that painting and then a second
> picture of it hanging in some building, under the group heading of 'Seoul is
> far away.' I still don't get why the enlargement is needed... but perhaps
> that is just me. But I think I am still right -- some women might be turned
> off to the conference by that zoom-in.


Sorry for being to much direct on this.

A man, thinking as a man, thinking on what a woman, thinking as a
woman, could-possibly-may-be-in-some-case found something offensive.

May be I'm also a Wester-Europen-Liberal-Minded (as Gert-Jan stated)
but I don't get the point of someone in Massachusetts «patrolling» the
thoughts of other woman, and we're not even discussing here a cultural
difference, just a genre difference.

Sorry, again, but I don't get it.

-- 
Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses
Valencia (España)
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Margherita Di Leo]

Hi,

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 2:08 PM, Milo van der Linden 
wrote:

> Hi Sanghee,
>
> Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first
> reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is
> well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any
> offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after
> looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my
> opinion.
>
> 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want
> to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the
> presentation.
>
> 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header "Culture" showing the row of
> female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I
> interpret this slide as: "Come to Korea for the beautiful women" and I
> believe that is not the message you want to send under the header "Culture".
>
> 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic
> drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a "drinking game". There are a lot
> of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again,
> would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.
>
> Final thought:
>
> I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should
> also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds
> a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make
> your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an
> interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!
>
>
>> looking at the presentation, I got exactly the same feeling as expressed
so well by Milo. Personally, I don't feel offended by this presentation as
a woman. However, due probably to my limitations, I don't get the messages
that you (Sanghee) meant to deliver, otherwise than the one expressed by
Milo. I support the idea that, due to the prominent placing of your
presentation, it is extremely important that the message conveyed is agreed
upon by the majority of the community, because somehow it does represent
not only your personal view, but the shared view of the community.
re to Jeroen: I don't think that the CoC itself caused the rising of this
issue, on the contrary, it formalized a statement of how the majority of
the community thinks it is right to behave... I think it is there to help,
not to create problems..

just my 2 cents



-- 
Best regards,

Dr. Margherita DI LEO
Scientific / technical project officer

European Commission - DG JRC
Institute for Environment and Sustainability (IES)
Via Fermi, 2749
I-21027 Ispra (VA) - Italy - TP 261

Tel. +39 0332 78 3600
margherita.di-...@jrc.ec.europa.eu

Disclaimer: The views expressed are purely those of the writer and may not
in any circumstance be regarded as stating an official position of the
European Commission.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Sanghee Shin]

Dear All, 

One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is exactly 
what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image intentionally 
for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as well as art history 
book. 

If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front of that 
painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a nude female. 
However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now you can realise 
the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of Abraham Lincoln - the 
president of USA. 

I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from the 
object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture. 

I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting. 

All the best, 

Sanghee
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org



> 2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden  작성:
> 
> Hi Sanghee,
> 
> Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first 
> reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is well 
> accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any offense 
> in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after looking at them 
> in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my opinion.
> 
> 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want to 
> say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the 
> presentation.
> 
> 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header "Culture" showing the row of 
> female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I 
> interpret this slide as: "Come to Korea for the beautiful women" and I 
> believe that is not the message you want to send under the header "Culture".
> 
> 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic 
> drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a "drinking game". There are a lot 
> of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again, would 
> not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.
> 
> Final thought:
> 
> I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should also 
> do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds a 
> prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make 
> your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an 
> interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!
> 
> So thank you for that!
> 
> With respect, kind regards.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin  >:
> Dear All,
> 
> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
> 
> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you 
> should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G 
> Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6 
> (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those 
> controversial ones.
> 
> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation 
> breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
> 
> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides 
> from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss this 
> issue more openly to reach conclusions.
> 
> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from all 
> around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well, because 
> this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
> 
> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s 
> opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn 
> how to apply CoC in real cases.
> 
> *Sidenote for defending myself:
> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named “Lincoln 
> in Dalivision”[2]
> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’ Generation(SNSD)[3], 
> which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) 
> in/around Asia.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Sanghee
> 
> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct 
> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org 
> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision 
> 
> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation 
> 
> ---
> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
> http://2015.foss4g.org 
> Twitter: @foss4g
> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@l

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Massimiliano Cannata]

Just my 0.0002 cents,

I feel things are getting over complicated.

We have a CoC, and I think all the Charther member should confirm they
agree (actually a pre-requisite to become a charter member).
Then if a serious case is detected the Member can be eventually banned from
the community.

Otherwise we could pretend to do a have an official censorship system
checking all contents and decides what is fine or not... :-D

My point of view is that unless explicitly offensive and against law it is
responsability and credibility of each person to act according correct
moral society rules.

Maxi







2015-06-24 15:13 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin :

> Dear All,
>
> One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is
> exactly what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image
> intentionally for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as
> well as art history book.
>
> If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front of
> that painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a nude
> female. However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now you
> can realise the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of
> Abraham Lincoln - the president of USA.
>
> I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from the
> object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture.
>
> I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting.
>
> All the best,
>
> Sanghee
> ---
> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
> http://2015.foss4g.org
> Twitter: @foss4g
> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org
>
>
>
> 2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden  작성:
>
> Hi Sanghee,
>
> Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first
> reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is
> well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any
> offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after
> looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my
> opinion.
>
> 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want
> to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the
> presentation.
>
> 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header "Culture" showing the row of
> female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I
> interpret this slide as: "Come to Korea for the beautiful women" and I
> believe that is not the message you want to send under the header "Culture".
>
> 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic
> drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a "drinking game". There are a lot
> of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again,
> would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.
>
> Final thought:
>
> I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should
> also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds
> a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make
> your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an
> interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!
>
> So thank you for that!
>
> With respect, kind regards.
>
>
>
>
>
> 2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin :
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>>
>> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why
>> you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of
>> FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say,
>> slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are
>> those controversial ones.
>>
>> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation
>> breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>>
>> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides
>> from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss
>> this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
>>
>> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from
>> all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well,
>> because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
>>
>> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s
>> opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn
>> how to apply CoC in real cases.
>>
>> *Sidenote for defending myself:
>> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named
>> “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
>> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’
>> Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of
>> Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Sanghee
>>
>> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
>> [1]http://2015.f

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El Miércoles 24. junio 2015 12.42.40 Charles Schweik escribió:
> [...] I was raising the question that those slides could turn some women off 
> who are considering attending and I think [...]

I feel obliged to jump in the thread, because this looks just like a recent 
case of "the limits of joking" in Spanish media.

Imagine this: Person A makes a joke involving person B who was a victim of a 
terrorist bombing. Person C throws a tantrum and tells the media "I'm sure B 
finds A's jokes insulting, thus A must resign from his job"[1]. Then, person B 
jumps in and publicly states that she never felt offended by A's jokes at 
all[2].

[1] http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2015/06/13/madrid/1434219265_951793.html
[2] http://www.larazon.es/opinion/columnistas/mas-fuerte-que-el-odio-AF10047124


In other words: Saying "Person A should take this down because I find it 
offensive" is perfectly OK. Saying "Person A should take this down because it 
is possibly potentially offensive to a third party" is not OK (and actually 
erodes the right to freedom of expression).


I need to ask for **evidence-based policy** here. There is a big difference 
between a Dali painting *maybe* turning someone off FOSS4G and a Dali painting 
*actually* turning someone off FOSS4G.



Furthermore, there is such a thing like too much political correctness. I will 
illustrate *ad absurdum* by turning my own political-correctness-o-meter up to 
eleven for a second:

Sanghee should remove slide 15 because blood sausages are maybe potentially 
offensive to muslims and vegans.

Sanghee should remove slide 17 because the kerning can maybe potentially make 
the eyes of experience typesetters bleed.

Sanghee should remove slides 18 and 19 because they might be potential 
triggers for agoraphobics.

Sanghee should remove slide 22 because it might be potentially insulting to 
astronomers concerned by light pollution.

Sanghee should remove slide 23 because it might be potentially insulting to 
"grammar nazis".

I should remove the previous sentence because someone might potentially find 
"nazis" offensive.

Sanghee should remove slide 25 because it might be potentially insulting to 
geodesists who know circles don't have a meaning outside of distance-
preserving projections (incidentally, these are the same people offended by 
EPSG:3857 being used everywhere) and find that FOSS4G is not representative of 
the professionalism required to attend such an event.

Sanghee should remove slide 30 because the alignment might be a potential 
trigger for people with obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Sanghee should remove slides 37-42 because they might be potentially offensive 
to alcoholics and former alcoholics.




-- 
Iván Sánchez Ortega   

___
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Charles Schweik]

(I've been trying not to post again, but since in a way I started this (not
meant to go so publicly!), here's my last post):

This isn't a COC issue.

This is a discussion about FOSS4G recruitment and messaging issue,
representing all of us globally who feel part of the FOSS4G community and
want to see it thrive and grow. The posts by Milo and Margherita captured
the confusion I had over messaging better than I did.

Agreed, I'm male. Please forgive me for trying to be sensitive to half the
world's population and one that our discipline has trouble recruiting, and
not understanding what the message was in the Dali sequence and the models
sequence.

Sanghee - I regret not contacting you about this directly and meant no
disrespect. Jeff- sorry for the heartburn.

Charlie Schweik







On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Massimiliano Cannata <
massimiliano.cann...@supsi.ch> wrote:

> Just my 0.0002 cents,
>
> I feel things are getting over complicated.
>
> We have a CoC, and I think all the Charther member should confirm they
> agree (actually a pre-requisite to become a charter member).
> Then if a serious case is detected the Member can be eventually banned
> from the community.
>
> Otherwise we could pretend to do a have an official censorship system
> checking all contents and decides what is fine or not... :-D
>
> My point of view is that unless explicitly offensive and against law it is
> responsability and credibility of each person to act according correct
> moral society rules.
>
> Maxi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2015-06-24 15:13 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin :
>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is
>> exactly what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image
>> intentionally for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as
>> well as art history book.
>>
>> If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front of
>> that painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a nude
>> female. However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now you
>> can realise the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of
>> Abraham Lincoln - the president of USA.
>>
>> I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from the
>> object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture.
>>
>> I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Sanghee
>> ---
>> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
>> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
>> http://2015.foss4g.org
>> Twitter: @foss4g
>> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
>> email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org
>>
>>
>>
>> 2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden  작성:
>>
>> Hi Sanghee,
>>
>> Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first
>> reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is
>> well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any
>> offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after
>> looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my
>> opinion.
>>
>> 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you want
>> to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without downgrading the
>> presentation.
>>
>> 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header "Culture" showing the row of
>> female models will bring a better message with another picture. Currently I
>> interpret this slide as: "Come to Korea for the beautiful women" and I
>> believe that is not the message you want to send under the header "Culture".
>>
>> 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed alcoholic
>> drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a "drinking game". There are a lot
>> of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them, again,
>> would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.
>>
>> Final thought:
>>
>> I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you should
>> also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation holds
>> a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This would make
>> your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing, it is an
>> interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!
>>
>> So thank you for that!
>>
>> With respect, kind regards.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin :
>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>>>
>>> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why
>>> you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of
>>> FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say,
>>> slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are
>>> those controversial ones.
>>>
>>> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my
>>> presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>>>
>>

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Milo van der Linden]

Hahaha!

I appreciate this. Maybe we need to add some statistics to your
political-correctness-o-meter to measure how much of the world population
is potentially still "on board" at the final slide. This will give a clear
insight of how many people will come to the event. ;-)
On Jun 24, 2015 3:41 PM, "Iván Sánchez"  wrote:

> El Miércoles 24. junio 2015 12.42.40 Charles Schweik escribió:
> > [...] I was raising the question that those slides could turn some women
> off
> > who are considering attending and I think [...]
>
> I feel obliged to jump in the thread, because this looks just like a recent
> case of "the limits of joking" in Spanish media.
>
> Imagine this: Person A makes a joke involving person B who was a victim of
> a
> terrorist bombing. Person C throws a tantrum and tells the media "I'm sure
> B
> finds A's jokes insulting, thus A must resign from his job"[1]. Then,
> person B
> jumps in and publicly states that she never felt offended by A's jokes at
> all[2].
>
> [1] http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2015/06/13/madrid/1434219265_951793.html
> [2]
> http://www.larazon.es/opinion/columnistas/mas-fuerte-que-el-odio-AF10047124
>
>
> In other words: Saying "Person A should take this down because I find it
> offensive" is perfectly OK. Saying "Person A should take this down because
> it
> is possibly potentially offensive to a third party" is not OK (and actually
> erodes the right to freedom of expression).
>
>
> I need to ask for **evidence-based policy** here. There is a big difference
> between a Dali painting *maybe* turning someone off FOSS4G and a Dali
> painting
> *actually* turning someone off FOSS4G.
>
>
>
> Furthermore, there is such a thing like too much political correctness. I
> will
> illustrate *ad absurdum* by turning my own political-correctness-o-meter
> up to
> eleven for a second:
>
> Sanghee should remove slide 15 because blood sausages are maybe potentially
> offensive to muslims and vegans.
>
> Sanghee should remove slide 17 because the kerning can maybe potentially
> make
> the eyes of experience typesetters bleed.
>
> Sanghee should remove slides 18 and 19 because they might be potential
> triggers for agoraphobics.
>
> Sanghee should remove slide 22 because it might be potentially insulting to
> astronomers concerned by light pollution.
>
> Sanghee should remove slide 23 because it might be potentially insulting to
> "grammar nazis".
>
> I should remove the previous sentence because someone might potentially
> find
> "nazis" offensive.
>
> Sanghee should remove slide 25 because it might be potentially insulting to
> geodesists who know circles don't have a meaning outside of distance-
> preserving projections (incidentally, these are the same people offended by
> EPSG:3857 being used everywhere) and find that FOSS4G is not
> representative of
> the professionalism required to attend such an event.
>
> Sanghee should remove slide 30 because the alignment might be a potential
> trigger for people with obsessive-compulsive disorder.
>
> Sanghee should remove slides 37-42 because they might be potentially
> offensive
> to alcoholics and former alcoholics.
>
>
> 
>
> --
> Iván Sánchez Ortega  
> 
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
___
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Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[신상희]

Dear Charles,

I understand your real intention now. Just like you mentioned, it's not the
issue of CoC. That's me who links this with CoC. And I myself brought this
to the public discussion since I felt I could be wrong and this might be
the matter of CoC. We should have discussed this earlier in private first.

Thanks for your care.

Sanghee

2015. 6. 24. 오후 2:54에 "Charles Schweik" 님이 작성:
>
> (I've been trying not to post again, but since in a way I started this
(not meant to go so publicly!), here's my last post):
>
> This isn't a COC issue.
>
> This is a discussion about FOSS4G recruitment and messaging issue,
representing all of us globally who feel part of the FOSS4G community and
want to see it thrive and grow. The posts by Milo and Margherita captured
the confusion I had over messaging better than I did.
>
> Agreed, I'm male. Please forgive me for trying to be sensitive to half
the world's population and one that our discipline has trouble recruiting,
and not understanding what the message was in the Dali sequence and the
models sequence.
>
> Sanghee - I regret not contacting you about this directly and meant no
disrespect. Jeff- sorry for the heartburn.
>
> Charlie Schweik
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Massimiliano Cannata <
massimiliano.cann...@supsi.ch> wrote:
>>
>> Just my 0.0002 cents,
>>
>> I feel things are getting over complicated.
>>
>> We have a CoC, and I think all the Charther member should confirm they
agree (actually a pre-requisite to become a charter member).
>> Then if a serious case is detected the Member can be eventually banned
from the community.
>>
>> Otherwise we could pretend to do a have an official censorship system
checking all contents and decides what is fine or not... :-D
>>
>> My point of view is that unless explicitly offensive and against law it
is responsability and credibility of each person to act according correct
moral society rules.
>>
>> Maxi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2015-06-24 15:13 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin :
>>>
>>> Dear All,
>>>
>>> One thing I could say about the controversial #6 slide is that that is
exactly what Salvador Dali try to point out. I didn’t crop out the image
intentionally for ‘commercial.’ Image in #6 can be found in internet as
well as art history book.
>>>
>>> If you visited Dali Museum in Figueres, Spain and stood just in front
of that painting, Dali’s ‘Lincoln in Dalivision’ just look like that, a
nude female. However if you move back to 10~20 meters away from that, now
you can realise the real meaning of that painting, that’s the portrait of
Abraham Lincoln - the president of USA.
>>>
>>> I just used that image to stress the importance of long distance from
the object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary culture.
>>>
>>> I feel like this discussion is just like Dali’s painting.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Sanghee
>>> ---
>>> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
>>> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
>>> http://2015.foss4g.org
>>> Twitter: @foss4g
>>> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
>>> email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
 2015. 6. 24., 오후 1:08, Milo van der Linden  작성:

 Hi Sanghee,

 Thank you for taking this matter to the discuss mailinglist. My first
reaction when clicking the links from your post was, no problem, this is
well accepted from my european perspective and I do not directly see any
offense in them nor see any offense in other cultures. However, after
looking at them in context (in the slideshare presentation) this is my
opinion.

 1. I don't understand the slides with the Dali painting. What do you
want to say with them? In my opinion they can be removed without
downgrading the presentation.

 2. In my opinion; the slide with the header "Culture" showing the row
of female models will bring a better message with another picture.
Currently I interpret this slide as: "Come to Korea for the beautiful
women" and I believe that is not the message you want to send under the
header "Culture".

 3. There are a few slides with a lot of prominently displayed
alcoholic drinks, in one slide, it even looks like a "drinking game". There
are a lot of cultures that are offended by that too. Simply removing them,
again, would not make your presentation worse, it would make it stronger.

 Final thought:

 I agree with the request for removal/replacement but I think you
should also do something about the alcoholic drinks given this presentation
holds a prominent position on the main page for the foss4g event. This
would make your presentation stronger, because apart from this minor thing,
it is an interesting slideshow that has me interested in going to Seoul!

 So thank you for that!

 With respect, kind regards.





 2015-06-24 12:22 GMT+02:00 Sanghee Shin :
>
> Dear All,
>
> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>
> I was asked to remove a few slide

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Kristin Bott]

Hi, all --

Including the conference list on this, since I think it's relevant (and I
suspect that variations on this conversation are happening in multiple
corners).

re: implementation plans for the CoC. A group of folks met during State of
the Map in NYC earlier this month to talk about what an implementation plan
might look like. We are currently drafting language to present to the board
to form a CoC committee *as well as *drafting an implementation plan. Jeff,
we can most certainly have this done by 1 September 2015.

Responding to CoC concerns is not simple -- we're trying to create a
structure and a process that will make this as smooth as possible for all
involved.

If you have any questions / concerns about this, feel free to contact me,
off-list or otherwise.

cheers -
-kristin

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:03 AM, Jeff McKenna  wrote:

> I thank Sanghee for bringing this to the community.  I want to point out
> that having just a "Code of Conduct", words, on a website is not enough,
> there needs to be a whole structure of how to handle this.  In bold
> letters I want to state publicly: there is currently no implementation
> plan for the OSGeo Code of Conduct.  This is not acceptable.  A few good
> volunteers have been discussing offline how to setup an implementation
> plan, as well as possibly even a new OSGeo committee for this, great,
> but, it is still in discussion stage.  Without some sort of plan,
> community members are already contacting me directly with reports, and I
> have no formal way to handle these reports.  (Sanghee was nice enough to
> help me solve this together publicly, but, this obviously cannot apply
> to all reports)
>
> I suggest, propose, that if there is no implementation plan for the Code
> of Conduct by the 1st of September, that the Code of Conduct is removed
> from all visible OSGeo pages, and is replaced with a simple Diversity
> statement.
>
> I am sorry for being direct here, but, as you can see, this needs to
> move forward, or not at all.
>
> -jeff
>
>
> --
> Jeff McKenna
> President, OSGeo
> http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Jeff_McKenna
>
>
>
>
> On 2015-06-24 7:22 AM, Sanghee Shin wrote:
> > Dear All,
> >
> > It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
> >
> > I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why
> you should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of
> FOSS4G Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say,
> slide #6 (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are
> those controversial ones.
> >
> > I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my
> presentation breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
> >
> > However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those
> slides from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better
> discuss this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
> >
> > I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this
> from all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as
> well, because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
> >
> > I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s
> opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn
> how to apply CoC in real cases.
> >
> > *Sidenote for defending myself:
> > - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named
> “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
> > - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’
> Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of
> Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Sanghee
> >
> > [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
> > [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
> > [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
> > [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
> > ---
> > Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
> > "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
> > http://2015.foss4g.org
> > Twitter: @foss4g
> > Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> > email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org
> >
> >
> >
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Andy Anderson]

Ah! Anecdotes! Let me provide one from my personal experience that’s more 
relevant. A female friend of mine attending a school *was* offended by the 
gratuitous insertion of nude pictures in a slide presentation in one of her 
classes. That school was soon thereafter subjected to an investigation for 
sexual harassment by the Office of Civil Rights of the US Department of 
Education, followed by a resolution agreement.

Anecdotal cases aside, in the West these sorts of things are generally known to 
be offensive to many, many women in the wrong context. The right context would 
certainly include art museums and art classes. But at a GIS conference? 
Generally speaking, I think potentially offensive items must not only be 
germane but necessary, and if they aren’t presenters should consider 
alternatives, especially if they are presenting on behalf of a larger 
organization.

So while the Dali portrait may be germane, I don’t see it as in any way 
necessary. Sanghee writes “I just used that image to stress the importance of 
long distance from the object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary 
culture.” But there are many, many other images that could be used instead to 
emphasize the same thing; they’re all over the place (see, e.g. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XElUS201fM8 or 
https://www.vat19.com/item/abraham-lincoln-penny-portrait — you could even make 
your own, with a geographic basis).

Regarding the girl-group picture, Sanghee writes “I believe as symbolic icon of 
wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia” — again possibly 
germane to this point, and perhaps by far the best representation and therefore 
necessary, but I have never heard of them and the point would be lost on me. A 
photo of a bowl of kimchi would be more effective in my case :-)

At the very least, I agree with Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses when he writes “May 
be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more suitable for 
being in the landing page of the Conference.” Looks like it was a presentation 
for the 2014 meeting in Bangkok, where I assume the context was verbalized, but 
the Web is a different medium. On general principles of effectiveness, I’d 
recommend putting the context directly into the slides. Otherwise their 
inclusion does seem gratuitous.

— Andy

On Jun 24, 2015, at 10:19 AM, Milo van der Linden 
mailto:m...@dogodigi.net>> wrote:

Hahaha!

I appreciate this. Maybe we need to add some statistics to your 
political-correctness-o-meter to measure how much of the world population is 
potentially still "on board" at the final slide. This will give a clear insight 
of how many people will come to the event. ;-)

On Jun 24, 2015 3:41 PM, "Iván Sánchez" 
mailto:i...@sanchezortega.es>> wrote:
El Miércoles 24. junio 2015 12.42.40 Charles Schweik escribió:
> [...] I was raising the question that those slides could turn some women off
> who are considering attending and I think [...]

I feel obliged to jump in the thread, because this looks just like a recent
case of "the limits of joking" in Spanish media.

Imagine this: Person A makes a joke involving person B who was a victim of a
terrorist bombing. Person C throws a tantrum and tells the media "I'm sure B
finds A's jokes insulting, thus A must resign from his job"[1]. Then, person B
jumps in and publicly states that she never felt offended by A's jokes at
all[2].

[1] http://ccaa.elpais.com/ccaa/2015/06/13/madrid/1434219265_951793.html
[2] http://www.larazon.es/opinion/columnistas/mas-fuerte-que-el-odio-AF10047124


In other words: Saying "Person A should take this down because I find it
offensive" is perfectly OK. Saying "Person A should take this down because it
is possibly potentially offensive to a third party" is not OK (and actually
erodes the right to freedom of expression).


I need to ask for **evidence-based policy** here. There is a big difference
between a Dali painting *maybe* turning someone off FOSS4G and a Dali painting
*actually* turning someone off FOSS4G.



Furthermore, there is such a thing like too much political correctness. I will
illustrate *ad absurdum* by turning my own political-correctness-o-meter up to
eleven for a second:

Sanghee should remove slide 15 because blood sausages are maybe potentially
offensive to muslims and vegans.

Sanghee should remove slide 17 because the kerning can maybe potentially make
the eyes of experience typesetters bleed.

Sanghee should remove slides 18 and 19 because they might be potential
triggers for agoraphobics.

Sanghee should remove slide 22 because it might be potentially insulting to
astronomers concerned by light pollution.

Sanghee should remove slide 23 because it might be potentially insulting to
"grammar nazis".

I should remove the previous sentence because someone might potentially find
"nazis" offensive.

Sanghee should remove slide 25 because it might be potentially insulting to
geodesists who know circles don't have a meaning outside of distance-
preservi

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Peter Baumann]

although I try to force myself to focus on productive tasks I just have to
briefly respond.

On 06/24/15 18:46, Andy Anderson wrote:
> Ah! Anecdotes! Let me provide one from my personal experience that’s more
> relevant. A female friend of mine attending a school *was* offended by the
> gratuitous insertion of nude pictures in a slide presentation in one of her
> classes. That school was soon thereafter subjected to an investigation for
> sexual harassment by the Office of Civil Rights of the US Department of
> Education, followed by a resolution agreement. 

indeed, I have heard about such cases, mainly in the central US I believe. Such
kind of institutionalized censorship and "political correctness" unfortunately
is happening again and again - we've had that with McCarthy in the US, Stalin in
Russia, and I am sure we find legions of cases where, "justified" by some
doctrine, a few people abused their power to indoctrinate the rest.

Further, let me emphasize the "diversity" aspect. Different cultures have
different views. Nudity was common in ancient Greece on the one hand. On the
other hand, "Western" women tend to dress in a way (with tank tops and what was
once called "hot pants") which is outrageously offensive to some cultures. So I
(or some Oriental person, for that matter) might well approach a woman at a next
FOSS4G and ask her to come in long pants, or otherwise ask the committee to
expel her. Fully concordant with discussion here. Do we want that?

I sense that this thread is always about enforcement of some rules based on
"Western" (often meaning: US) concepts. Frequently, there seems to be a naive
assumption of "my rules are right". Who states what is "right" and "wrong", and
based on what justification? I just fail to see a _common_ sense in these
matters. Doomed to fail.


>
> Anecdotal cases aside, in the West these sorts of things are generally known
> to be offensive to many, many women /in the wrong context./ The right context
> would certainly include art museums and art classes. But at a GIS conference?
> Generally speaking, I think potentially offensive items must not only be
> /germane/ but /necessary/, and if they aren’t presenters should consider
> alternatives, especially if they are presenting on behalf of a larger
> organization.
>
> So while the Dali portrait may be germane, I don’t see it as in any way
> necessary. Sanghee writes “I just used that image to stress the importance of
> long distance from the object or sometimes from the too experienced ordinary
> culture.” But there are many, many other images that could be used instead to
> emphasize the same thing; they’re all over the place (see, e.g.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XElUS201fM8 or
> https://www.vat19.com/item/abraham-lincoln-penny-portrait — you could even
> make your own, with a geographic basis).

Science (and good talks!) live from thinking the unanticipated, not so obvious,
from putting things into a new context. Ideologic constraints always have been
harmful to science and art. I am sure under the regime proposed many of our most
famous artwork would not have occurred - Venus by Milo, for example.

>
> Regarding the girl-group picture, Sanghee writes “I believe as symbolic icon
> of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia” — again possibly
> germane to this point, and perhaps by far the best representation and
> therefore necessary, but I have never heard of them and the point would be
> lost on me. A photo of a bowl of kimchi would be more effective in my case :-)

Hm, so because a North American has not heard about a group famous in Korea it
should not be mentioned in a talk given by a Korean about Korea?

Do we have an issue of Diversity here?

>
> At the very least, I agree with Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses when he writes “May
> be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more suitable for
> being in the landing page of the Conference.” Looks like it was a presentation
> for the 2014 meeting in Bangkok, where I assume the context was verbalized,
> but the Web is a different medium. On general principles of effectiveness, I’d
> recommend putting the context directly into the slides. Otherwise their
> inclusion does seem gratuitous.

Freedom of speech?

"The Master-Singers of Nuremberg") is a German music drama first performed 1868.
Part of it plays during the guild's song contest. Walther, an external
contestant, launches into a novel free-form tune, breaking all the
mastersingers' rules, and his song is constantly interrupted by the scratch of
Beckmesser's chalk on his chalkboard, maliciously noting one violation after
another. (Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Meistersinger_von_N%C3%BCrnberg)

Since that time, "beckmesserish" is used in German as a synonym for judging
solely on abstract rules, without understanding of the matter as such. On this
occasion I found the English synonym "carping".

-Peter


>
> — Andy
>
> On Jun 24, 2015, at 10:19 AM, Milo van der

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Pat Tressel]

The conversation has gone on to the question of diversity in STEM fields,
but if I can return to the original presentation for a moment...

Perhaps we could look at it from a different perspective, namely, that of
marketing and branding.  Is this an effective advertisement?  Does it
accomplish the intended purpose?  (Full disclosure:  I'm not a
professional, though I have worked for an advertising placement company.  I
am, however, very much a fan of good advertising and follow industry news.)

Let's say we don't know what the purpose is.  What can we extract from the
presentation itself?  The majority of the presentation is selling "other
reasons" to attend FOSS4G 2015 besides the content of the conference
itself.  A significant portion advertises travel to Seoul, and includes
traditional travel themes -- culture, entertainment, food, sights.  Another
has the feeling of a business development promotion.  Another portion
emphasizes interaction with other attendees, and especially fun interaction.

What can we infer about the intended audience?  With the exception of the
three elements discussed in this thread, the presentation appears neutral.
The Dali image, Girls' Generation, and multiple images of alcoholic
beverages are elements that would appear intended to appeal to a specific
demographic, unmarried men below middle-age.  (Girls Generation is a group
assembled by SM Entertainment, whose founder says the group is intended to
appeal to men aged 30-40.  However, they now have a significant female fan
base in Japan.)

Next, how effective is it?  The presentation does not appear intended to
stand on its own.  I'm assuming that these slides were used with a verbal
presentation?  For instance, as others have noted, the meaning of the Dali
image sequence is obscure -- it does not work without explanation.  To make
it work without a verbal pitch, ask, for each section, does the lead-in
slide adequately establish what is being promoted in that section?  And for
each slide, ask, does this need a better caption?

Given that this is promoting attendance based on things that are not part
of the conference itself, it would be good to make that explicit right in
the first slide.  If it's intended to also promote the conference program,
that might work better as a separate presentation, rather than trying to
glue it onto this one.

If the three elements in question would be off-putting to some potential
attendees, it would be easy to replace at least the Dali image and the beer
images.  Note in a professional advertising campaign, the question would
not be, can we get away with this? but rather, is it possible that this
will turn away potential customers in our intended demographic, or could
this in any way diminish our brand or cause a negative reaction?  So *if*
the question of offense comes up at all, then that would trigger fixing
that part of the advertisement.

I gather the point of the Dali sequence is to say that something can appear
as one thing from afar, and otherwise close up.  Perhaps use a photo mosaic
image instead?  (These are images constructed of many small images.)  The
beer images are jarring not so much because they feature alcohol, but
because there are so many of them -- they are out of proportion to any
other type of image.  I'd recommend dropping slides 37-41 and keeping only
42 (which is a better image than 41).  Similarly, for the food images (the
second longest sequence), instead of multiple slides, tile them into one
slide.

The Girls Generation picture is more problematic, because they are a
legitimate and popular group.  Two things were jarring to me.  First, that
was the *only* "culture" image.  There are other aspects to Seoul culture
besides K-pop.  A montage of several images showing a range of cultural
aspects would de-emphasize the "sex" aspect.  Second, with the exception of
the Dali image, the appearance of a "sexy" image was unexpected.  Note that
part of the problem is that not many people outside of Asia will recognize
Girls Generation -- they will just see young women in provocative dress and
poses.  (For contrast, ~everyone on the planet would recognize Psy.)

Finally, please don't be offended, but, it would also be good to get advice
from a graphic designer, and also have someone proofread the text.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Peter Baumann]

On 06/25/15 09:26, Pat Tressel wrote:
> The conversation has gone on to the question of diversity in STEM fields, but
> if I can return to the original presentation for a moment...
>
> Perhaps we could look at it from a different perspective, namely, that of
> marketing and branding.  Is this an effective advertisement?  Does it
> accomplish the intended purpose?  (Full disclosure:  I'm not a professional,
> though I have worked for an advertising placement company.  I am, however,
> very much a fan of good advertising and follow industry news.)
>
> Let's say we don't know what the purpose is.  What can we extract from the
> presentation itself?  The majority of the presentation is selling "other
> reasons" to attend FOSS4G 2015 besides the content of the conference itself. 
> A significant portion advertises travel to Seoul, and includes traditional
> travel themes -- culture, entertainment, food, sights.  Another has the
> feeling of a business development promotion.  Another portion emphasizes
> interaction with other attendees, and especially fun interaction.
>
> What can we infer about the intended audience?  With the exception of the
> three elements discussed in this thread, the presentation appears neutral. 
> The Dali image, Girls' Generation, and multiple images of alcoholic beverages
> are elements that would appear intended to appeal to a specific demographic,
> unmarried men below middle-age. 

no, plainly wrong.

> (Girls Generation is a group assembled by SM Entertainment, whose founder says
> the group is intended to appeal to men aged 30-40. 

this is not something to generalize to art and beer (combination tentative).

> However, they now have a significant female fan base in Japan.)

so statement above proven wrong.

>
> Next, how effective is it?  The presentation does not appear intended to stand
> on its own.  I'm assuming that these slides were used with a verbal
> presentation?  For instance, as others have noted, the meaning of the Dali
> image sequence is obscure -- it does not work without explanation.  To make it
> work without a verbal pitch, ask, for each section, does the lead-in slide
> adequately establish what is being promoted in that section?  And for each
> slide, ask, does this need a better caption?
>
> Given that this is promoting attendance based on things that are not part of
> the conference itself, it would be good to make that explicit right in the
> first slide.  If it's intended to also promote the conference program, that
> might work better as a separate presentation, rather than trying to glue it
> onto this one.
>
> If the three elements in question would be off-putting to some potential
> attendees, it would be easy to replace at least the Dali image and the beer
> images.  Note in a professional advertising campaign, the question would not
> be, can we get away with this? but rather, is it possible that this will turn
> away potential customers in our intended demographic, or could this in any way
> diminish our brand or cause a negative reaction?  So *if* the question of
> offense comes up at all, then that would trigger fixing that part of the
> advertisement.
>
> I gather the point of the Dali sequence is to say that something can appear as
> one thing from afar, and otherwise close up.  Perhaps use a photo mosaic image
> instead?  (These are images constructed of many small images.)  The beer
> images are jarring not so much because they feature alcohol, but because there
> are so many of them -- they are out of proportion to any other type of image. 
> I'd recommend dropping slides 37-41 and keeping only 42 (which is a better
> image than 41).  Similarly, for the food images (the second longest sequence),
> instead of multiple slides, tile them into one slide.

see my recent post about Beckmesser.

>
> The Girls Generation picture is more problematic, because they are a
> legitimate and popular group.  Two things were jarring to me.  First, that was
> the *only* "culture" image.  There are other aspects to Seoul culture besides
> K-pop.  A montage of several images showing a range of cultural aspects would
> de-emphasize the "sex" aspect.  Second, with the exception of the Dali image,
> the appearance of a "sexy" image was unexpected.  Note that part of the
> problem is that not many people outside of Asia will recognize Girls
> Generation -- they will just see young women in provocative dress and poses. 
> (For contrast, ~everyone on the planet would recognize Psy.)
>
> Finally, please don't be offended, but, it would also be good to get advice
> from a graphic designer, and also have someone proofread the text.

diversity - can we accept that non-English-natives have typos on their slides?

Let me suggest to establish an OSGeo Committee of Censorship (CoC) to formalize
all the criticism.

-Peter



>
>
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Pat Tressel]

I hesitate to step into the "sexism in tech" debate, but...  There may be
some recent events that folks aren't aware of, that may be relevant -- some
specifically have to do with conferences.  This list is not R-rated, so
rather than directly describe the relevant events, I'll just give you
search queries that will bring them up:

"PyCon donglegate"
"TechCrunch sexism"
"Pax Dickenson brogrammer"
"GamerGate"

Those are only tips of the iceberg -- they are specific symptoms of a more
general attitude.  I've listed them in order of seriousness.  I expect that
these will get the "that's just PC" objection, but are threats of rape and
murder really just "for fun"?  And if the objection is that women just just
force their way into tech, I have two words for you:  hiring manager.  And
no, not all of us have the resources to start our own companies.  Venture
funding is rarely offered to women.

When I worked as a software engineer for Digital Equipment Corporation
(DEC) in the 90s, the group I was in was half women.  No, not secretaries
and support staff -- engineers.  But there was a difference in attitude,
which one can see in the fact that although DEC ceased to exist in 1998
(sold to Compaq), we *still have reunions* and active social networks.  The
switch to deliberately provoking competition and infighting between
employees, via stack ranking and similar management fads, is exacerbating
the rise of sexism in tech -- there is now an aspect of "us against them".
Because employment is a zero-sum game, (re)entry of women in tech would
mean fewer positions and less money for men.  (Competing against other men
doesn't trigger the same level of response since men are already in the
pool -- it's the thought of the pool *doubling* that is causing this
fear.)  Since this style of management (stemming from Jack Welch) is taught
in b-schools, it will take some time to turn the ship around.  But there
are some signs of light:  Microsoft recently cancelled stack ranking, and
is making a significant effort to reestablish teamwork and cooperation.
That took being publicly shamed (see the article in Vanity Fair, titled ~
"How Stack Ranking Killed Innovation at Microsoft") and a new CEO (Satya
Nadella, replacing Steve Ballmer).

There's also plain old bias.  This research by Google HR is fascinating:
https://www.gv.com/lib/unconscious-bias-at-work
Watch especially where ~ the entire audience, men and women both, fails the
test, right there on camera...
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Pat Tressel]

Peter --

I'm trying to improve the presentation.  Ok?  Thanks.

> The conversation has gone on to the question of diversity in STEM fields,
> but if I can return to the original presentation for a moment...
>
> Perhaps we could look at it from a different perspective, namely, that of
> marketing and branding.  Is this an effective advertisement?  Does it
> accomplish the intended purpose?  (Full disclosure:  I'm not a
> professional, though I have worked for an advertising placement company.  I
> am, however, very much a fan of good advertising and follow industry news.)
>
> Let's say we don't know what the purpose is.  What can we extract from the
> presentation itself?  The majority of the presentation is selling "other
> reasons" to attend FOSS4G 2015 besides the content of the conference
> itself.  A significant portion advertises travel to Seoul, and includes
> traditional travel themes -- culture, entertainment, food, sights.  Another
> has the feeling of a business development promotion.  Another portion
> emphasizes interaction with other attendees, and especially fun interaction.
>
> What can we infer about the intended audience?  With the exception of the
> three elements discussed in this thread, the presentation appears neutral.
> The Dali image, Girls' Generation, and multiple images of alcoholic
> beverages are elements that would appear intended to appeal to a specific
> demographic, unmarried men below middle-age.
>
>
> no, plainly wrong.
>

?  Proof?


>  (Girls Generation is a group assembled by SM Entertainment, whose
> founder says the group is intended to appeal to men aged 30-40.
>
>
> this is not something to generalize to art and beer (combination
> tentative).
>

There was no generalization.  This statement is a fact.  A web search will
turn up the quote.

>
>  However, they now have a significant female fan base in Japan.)
>
>
> so statement above proven wrong.
>

No.  Statement of intended audience is simply a fact.  That was the goal of
assembling the group.  The reason they have a fan base of young girls in
Japan is problematic and to some, disturbing:  This may be the limit of
what these girls aspire to, because it is an occupation allowed to women.


>
> Next, how effective is it?  The presentation does not appear intended to
> stand on its own.  I'm assuming that these slides were used with a verbal
> presentation?  For instance, as others have noted, the meaning of the Dali
> image sequence is obscure -- it does not work without explanation.  To make
> it work without a verbal pitch, ask, for each section, does the lead-in
> slide adequately establish what is being promoted in that section?  And for
> each slide, ask, does this need a better caption?
>
> Given that this is promoting attendance based on things that are not part
> of the conference itself, it would be good to make that explicit right in
> the first slide.  If it's intended to also promote the conference program,
> that might work better as a separate presentation, rather than trying to
> glue it onto this one.
>
> If the three elements in question would be off-putting to some potential
> attendees, it would be easy to replace at least the Dali image and the beer
> images.  Note in a professional advertising campaign, the question would
> not be, can we get away with this? but rather, is it possible that this
> will turn away potential customers in our intended demographic, or could
> this in any way diminish our brand or cause a negative reaction?  So *if*
> the question of offense comes up at all, then that would trigger fixing
> that part of the advertisement.
>
> I gather the point of the Dali sequence is to say that something can
> appear as one thing from afar, and otherwise close up.  Perhaps use a photo
> mosaic image instead?  (These are images constructed of many small
> images.)  The beer images are jarring not so much because they feature
> alcohol, but because there are so many of them -- they are out of
> proportion to any other type of image.  I'd recommend dropping slides 37-41
> and keeping only 42 (which is a better image than 41).  Similarly, for the
> food images (the second longest sequence), instead of multiple slides, tile
> them into one slide.
>
>
> see my recent post about Beckmesser.
>
>
> The Girls Generation picture is more problematic, because they are a
> legitimate and popular group.  Two things were jarring to me.  First, that
> was the *only* "culture" image.  There are other aspects to Seoul culture
> besides K-pop.  A montage of several images showing a range of cultural
> aspects would de-emphasize the "sex" aspect.  Second, with the exception of
> the Dali image, the appearance of a "sexy" image was unexpected.  Note that
> part of the problem is that not many people outside of Asia will recognize
> Girls Generation -- they will just see young women in provocative dress and
> poses.  (For contrast, ~everyone on the planet would recognize Psy.)
>
> Finally, please don't be

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Massimiliano Cannata]

Once again I express my opinion:
I think that OSGeo shall express and support a CoC that is respecting
diversity in any form, but we don not have the right to censure anything.

If something really bad happens than someone will take action based on the
agreed CoC.
Do we really want to argue about the images and content of anyone
presentation?

The community is the best referee of the conduct of its members not a bunch
of people deciding what is good or not.

And YES, we can discuss it in Seoul to find a way to rise attention to the
CoC and discuss more (but friendly and with respect of diversity  ;-) )


Maxi



2015-06-25 10:07 GMT+02:00 Pat Tressel :

> I hesitate to step into the "sexism in tech" debate, but...  There may be
> some recent events that folks aren't aware of, that may be relevant -- some
> specifically have to do with conferences.  This list is not R-rated, so
> rather than directly describe the relevant events, I'll just give you
> search queries that will bring them up:
>
> "PyCon donglegate"
> "TechCrunch sexism"
> "Pax Dickenson brogrammer"
> "GamerGate"
>
> Those are only tips of the iceberg -- they are specific symptoms of a more
> general attitude.  I've listed them in order of seriousness.  I expect that
> these will get the "that's just PC" objection, but are threats of rape and
> murder really just "for fun"?  And if the objection is that women just just
> force their way into tech, I have two words for you:  hiring manager.  And
> no, not all of us have the resources to start our own companies.  Venture
> funding is rarely offered to women.
>
> When I worked as a software engineer for Digital Equipment Corporation
> (DEC) in the 90s, the group I was in was half women.  No, not secretaries
> and support staff -- engineers.  But there was a difference in attitude,
> which one can see in the fact that although DEC ceased to exist in 1998
> (sold to Compaq), we *still have reunions* and active social networks.  The
> switch to deliberately provoking competition and infighting between
> employees, via stack ranking and similar management fads, is exacerbating
> the rise of sexism in tech -- there is now an aspect of "us against them".
> Because employment is a zero-sum game, (re)entry of women in tech would
> mean fewer positions and less money for men.  (Competing against other men
> doesn't trigger the same level of response since men are already in the
> pool -- it's the thought of the pool *doubling* that is causing this
> fear.)  Since this style of management (stemming from Jack Welch) is taught
> in b-schools, it will take some time to turn the ship around.  But there
> are some signs of light:  Microsoft recently cancelled stack ranking, and
> is making a significant effort to reestablish teamwork and cooperation.
> That took being publicly shamed (see the article in Vanity Fair, titled ~
> "How Stack Ranking Killed Innovation at Microsoft") and a new CEO (Satya
> Nadella, replacing Steve Ballmer).
>
> There's also plain old bias.  This research by Google HR is fascinating:
> https://www.gv.com/lib/unconscious-bias-at-work
> Watch especially where ~ the entire audience, men and women both, fails
> the test, right there on camera...
>
>
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>



-- 
*Massimiliano Cannata*

Professore SUPSI in ingegneria Geomatica

Responsabile settore Geomatica


Istituto scienze della Terra

Dipartimento ambiente costruzione e design

Scuola universitaria professionale della Svizzera italiana

Campus Trevano, CH - 6952 Canobbio

Tel. +41 (0)58 666 62 14

Fax +41 (0)58 666 62 09

massimiliano.cann...@supsi.ch

*www.supsi.ch/ist *
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Pat Tressel]

People aren't seeing the irony in telling us not to discuss the
presentation, while at the same time decrying censorship...  ;-)
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Sanghee Shin]

Dear All, 

Thank you for all your great opinions, advices and inputs through this mailing 
lists and through to my private mail. I think we’ve discussed enough on this. 

I agree with Maria and Maxi’s suggestion to have a offline discussion time in 
Seoul. I’ll explore the possibility whether we can have that spaces 
before/during/after FOSS4G Seoul and will report to you. 

And I also agree with some advices that because my presentation was highly 
dependent on verbal explanation, it not so effective itself to deliver my clear 
intention. I’ll think about how to handle this. 

Thanks again for great and wonderful inputs. 

How about having a break for while?

All the best, 

Sanghee
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org



> 2015. 6. 25., 오전 9:22, Massimiliano Cannata  
> 작성:
> 
> Once again I express my opinion:
> I think that OSGeo shall express and support a CoC that is respecting 
> diversity in any form, but we don not have the right to censure anything.
> 
> If something really bad happens than someone will take action based on the 
> agreed CoC.
> Do we really want to argue about the images and content of anyone 
> presentation? 
> 
> The community is the best referee of the conduct of its members not a bunch 
> of people deciding what is good or not.
> 
> And YES, we can discuss it in Seoul to find a way to rise attention to the 
> CoC and discuss more (but friendly and with respect of diversity  ;-) )
> 
> 
> Maxi
> 
> 
> 
> 2015-06-25 10:07 GMT+02:00 Pat Tressel  >:
> I hesitate to step into the "sexism in tech" debate, but...  There may be 
> some recent events that folks aren't aware of, that may be relevant -- some 
> specifically have to do with conferences.  This list is not R-rated, so 
> rather than directly describe the relevant events, I'll just give you search 
> queries that will bring them up:
> 
> "PyCon donglegate"
> "TechCrunch sexism"
> "Pax Dickenson brogrammer"
> "GamerGate"
> 
> Those are only tips of the iceberg -- they are specific symptoms of a more 
> general attitude.  I've listed them in order of seriousness.  I expect that 
> these will get the "that's just PC" objection, but are threats of rape and 
> murder really just "for fun"?  And if the objection is that women just just 
> force their way into tech, I have two words for you:  hiring manager.  And 
> no, not all of us have the resources to start our own companies.  Venture 
> funding is rarely offered to women.
> 
> When I worked as a software engineer for Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) 
> in the 90s, the group I was in was half women.  No, not secretaries and 
> support staff -- engineers.  But there was a difference in attitude, which 
> one can see in the fact that although DEC ceased to exist in 1998 (sold to 
> Compaq), we *still have reunions* and active social networks.  The switch to 
> deliberately provoking competition and infighting between employees, via 
> stack ranking and similar management fads, is exacerbating the rise of sexism 
> in tech -- there is now an aspect of "us against them".  Because employment 
> is a zero-sum game, (re)entry of women in tech would mean fewer positions and 
> less money for men.  (Competing against other men doesn't trigger the same 
> level of response since men are already in the pool -- it's the thought of 
> the pool *doubling* that is causing this fear.)  Since this style of 
> management (stemming from Jack Welch) is taught in b-schools, it will take 
> some time to turn the ship around.  But there are some signs of light:  
> Microsoft recently cancelled stack ranking, and is making a significant 
> effort to reestablish teamwork and cooperation.  That took being publicly 
> shamed (see the article in Vanity Fair, titled ~ "How Stack Ranking Killed 
> Innovation at Microsoft") and a new CEO (Satya Nadella, replacing Steve 
> Ballmer).
> 
> There's also plain old bias.  This research by Google HR is fascinating:
> https://www.gv.com/lib/unconscious-bias-at-work 
> 
> Watch especially where ~ the entire audience, men and women both, fails the 
> test, right there on camera...
> 
> 
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org 
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Massimiliano Cannata
> Professore SUPSI in ingegneria Geomatica
> Responsabile settore Geomatica
> 
> Istituto scienze della Terra
> Dipartimento ambiente costruzione e design
> Scuola universitaria professionale della Svizzera italiana
> Campus Trevano, CH - 6952 Canobbio
> 
> Tel. +41 (0)58 666 62 14
> Fax +41 (0)58 666 62 09
> massimiliano.cann...@supsi.ch 
> www.supsi.ch/ist 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Peter Baumann]

wise words, will do so :)
-Peter


On 06/25/15 10:34, Sanghee Shin wrote:
> Dear All, 
>
> Thank you for all your great opinions, advices and inputs through this mailing
> lists and through to my private mail. I think we’ve discussed enough on this. 
>
> I agree with Maria and Maxi’s suggestion to have a offline discussion time in
> Seoul. I’ll explore the possibility whether we can have that spaces
> before/during/after FOSS4G Seoul and will report to you. 
>
> And I also agree with some advices that because my presentation was highly
> dependent on verbal explanation, it not so effective itself to deliver my
> clear intention. I’ll think about how to handle this. 
>
> Thanks again for great and wonderful inputs. 
>
> How about having a break for while?
>
> All the best, 
>
> Sanghee
> ---
> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
> http://2015.foss4g.org
> Twitter: @foss4g
> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org 
>
>
>
>> 2015. 6. 25., 오전 9:22, Massimiliano Cannata > > 작성:
>>
>> Once again I express my opinion:
>> I think that OSGeo shall express and support a CoC that is respecting
>> diversity in any form, but we don not have the right to censure anything.
>>
>> If something really bad happens than someone will take action based on the
>> agreed CoC.
>> Do we really want to argue about the images and content of anyone 
>> presentation? 
>>
>> The community is the best referee of the conduct of its members not a bunch
>> of people deciding what is good or not.
>>
>> And YES, we can discuss it in Seoul to find a way to rise attention to the
>> CoC and discuss more (but friendly and with respect of diversity  ;-) )
>>
>>
>> Maxi
>>
>>
>>
>> 2015-06-25 10:07 GMT+02:00 Pat Tressel > >:
>>
>> I hesitate to step into the "sexism in tech" debate, but...  There may be
>> some recent events that folks aren't aware of, that may be relevant --
>> some specifically have to do with conferences.  This list is not R-rated,
>> so rather than directly describe the relevant events, I'll just give you
>> search queries that will bring them up:
>>
>> "PyCon donglegate"
>> "TechCrunch sexism"
>> "Pax Dickenson brogrammer"
>> "GamerGate"
>>
>> Those are only tips of the iceberg -- they are specific symptoms of a
>> more general attitude.  I've listed them in order of seriousness.  I
>> expect that these will get the "that's just PC" objection, but are
>> threats of rape and murder really just "for fun"?  And if the objection
>> is that women just just force their way into tech, I have two words for
>> you:  hiring manager.  And no, not all of us have the resources to start
>> our own companies.  Venture funding is rarely offered to women.
>>
>> When I worked as a software engineer for Digital Equipment Corporation
>> (DEC) in the 90s, the group I was in was half women.  No, not secretaries
>> and support staff -- engineers.  But there was a difference in attitude,
>> which one can see in the fact that although DEC ceased to exist in 1998
>> (sold to Compaq), we *still have reunions* and active social networks. 
>> The switch to deliberately provoking competition and infighting between
>> employees, via stack ranking and similar management fads, is exacerbating
>> the rise of sexism in tech -- there is now an aspect of "us against
>> them".  Because employment is a zero-sum game, (re)entry of women in tech
>> would mean fewer positions and less money for men.  (Competing against
>> other men doesn't trigger the same level of response since men are
>> already in the pool -- it's the thought of the pool *doubling* that is
>> causing this fear.)  Since this style of management (stemming from Jack
>> Welch) is taught in b-schools, it will take some time to turn the ship
>> around.  But there are some signs of light:  Microsoft recently cancelled
>> stack ranking, and is making a significant effort to reestablish teamwork
>> and cooperation.  That took being publicly shamed (see the article in
>> Vanity Fair, titled ~ "How Stack Ranking Killed Innovation at Microsoft")
>> and a new CEO (Satya Nadella, replacing Steve Ballmer).
>>
>> There's also plain old bias.  This research by Google HR is fascinating:
>> https://www.gv.com/lib/unconscious-bias-at-work
>> Watch especially where ~ the entire audience, men and women both, fails
>> the test, right there on camera...
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org 
>> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> *Massimiliano Cannata*
>> Professore SUPSI in ingegneria Geomatica
>> Responsabile settore Geomatica
>>
>> Istituto scienze della Ter

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Jachym Cepicky]

Hi,

even the discussion seems to calm down already (or maybe because of that),
I would like to leave some notes as well:

Yes, I make jokes about everything, even serious stuff. It's my way, how to
deal with difficult topics, where is no single clear answer or the
everything seems to be screwed - joke (even bad joke) is my way how to get
over things.

Application of CoC is difficult topic (and we have been warned about this
at our Board meeting and everybody knew, application policy will have to be
defined), this long e-mail thread should help to us to define our CoC
policy.

Just would like to point out, that only because of the thread, my attention
was brought to Salvator's Dali paintings (I did not know this one), and the
the Korean Band, which certainly is not my cup of tee, but I was definitely
positively influenced by !two! different cultures, just because of that -
thanks to OSGeo community.

It might be not a big thing, but exactly thanks to our openness and
diversity, such cultural exchange is possible and this is why I love this
community and why I'm looking forward to go the Seoul - it will be cultural
shock for me, and will give me other perspective on my place and culture,
as well as visiting Portland did (and believe me, it did a lot). People
used to say, that during communism,  no official censorship was really
needed, because heavy self-censorship was applied by everybody. Therefore
careful approach is needed - on both sides of the community. Therefore I
would like you all to ask to continue talking and clarifying things - it's
nothing everlasting, it's a process. Try to distinguish between "I do not
like it", from "my friend does not like it" and "everybody will not like
it" and "in my country, nobody likes it". Please try to listen too, not
just hammer your truth. Just because you are loud, does not mean, you are
right (speaking not to Andy here, this is my message to the community).

Heaving said that and (personally) I do tend to agree more with what Peter
Baumann is writing (maybe better said: I understand what he is trying to
express using such limited communication method, as an e-mail, seems we
have similar life experience in this topic), we can not forget one thing:
OSGeo is U.S. based NGO, therefore certain rules and "cultural aspects"
common in U.S. should be considered with great care on the global level
IMHO. I do not say, I like it unconditionaly.

Discussion could start in Como already, but we miss one important aspect
there (!probably!) wider community from really different part of the world.
Or do we have numbers, how many non-Europe based attendees will come?

Jachym

st 24. 6. 2015 v 19:17 odesílatel Andy Anderson 
napsal:

>  Ah! Anecdotes! Let me provide one from my personal experience that’s more
> relevant. A female friend of mine attending a school *was* offended by the
> gratuitous insertion of nude pictures in a slide presentation in one of her
> classes. That school was soon thereafter subjected to an investigation for
> sexual harassment by the Office of Civil Rights of the US Department of
> Education, followed by a resolution agreement.
>


> Anecdotal cases aside, in the West these sorts of things are generally
> known to be offensive to many, many women *in the wrong context.* The
> right context would certainly include art museums and art classes. But at a
> GIS conference? Generally speaking, I think potentially offensive items
> must not only be *germane* but *necessary*, and if they aren’t presenters
> should consider alternatives, especially if they are presenting on behalf
> of a larger organization.
>
>  So while the Dali portrait may be germane, I don’t see it as in any way
> necessary. Sanghee writes “I just used that image to stress the importance
> of long distance from the object or sometimes from the too experienced
> ordinary culture.” But there are many, many other images that could be used
> instead to emphasize the same thing; they’re all over the place (see, e.g.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XElUS201fM8 or
> https://www.vat19.com/item/abraham-lincoln-penny-portrait — you could
> even make your own, with a geographic basis).
>
>  Regarding the girl-group picture, Sanghee writes “I believe as symbolic
> icon of wide spread of Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia” — again
> possibly germane to this point, and perhaps by far the best representation
> and therefore necessary, but I have never heard of them and the point would
> be lost on me. A photo of a bowl of kimchi would be more effective in my
> case :-)
>
>  At the very least, I agree with Pedro-Juan Ferrer Matoses when he writes
> “May be a less-dependant-on-someone-explaining-presentation is more
> suitable for being in the landing page of the Conference.” Looks like it
> was a presentation for the 2014 meeting in Bangkok, where I assume the
> context was verbalized, but the Web is a different medium. On general
> principles of effectiveness, I’d recommend putting the context d

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Charles Schweik]

OK, having been the one that unwittingly ‘lit the match’, here are my
concluding thoughts for use for the discussion in Seoul (and I agree with
Sanghee we should end this thread!)


1) This discussion was about the recruiting message and signals to the
world about who we are as a global community, on a critically important
venue – the flagship annual global conference, front webpage.


2) Organizations (even loose ones) do vetting of major recruitment material
to make sure the messages conveyed represent that organization or community
accurately.  That’s what some of this dialog was about.  In the future -- I
throw out the idea for consideration -- that it might be useful to consider
a pre-publishing comment period of any **major** recruitment material. The
goal is not to censure – but to gather reactions about message from our
global, multi-cultural community and to gauge whether there are
possibilities for misinterpretation -- across any culture -- and to solicit
ideas on how the messages conveyed can be improved.


3) Organizers of any single conference should have the freedom to weigh
these comments and then do what they think is right, given that particular
event is representing their particular culture and area of the world.


Two closing points.


-  I do agree with one of the last posts; in my view, in a time when the
world needs more positive global collaboration, OSGeo and FOSS4G lead the
way.


- I want to publicly that Sanghee for his willingness to listen and
contemplate and again pass on my regrets that I didn’t pass on my own
personal misinterpretations of his content directly to him. He is a great
example of the kind of positive people who make up this community.


Respectfully,


Charlie Schweik
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Ravi Kumar]

Slide 6, may be removed and so is slide 20 (the girls group). Those
interested can always see them on the web. Slide 20 betrays a notion of
enticement, at a FOSS4G conference. This is strictly my personal opinion.
There are many good inviting slides to entice taste-buds.


On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Sanghee Shin  wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> It’s now time to apply OSGeo CoC(Code of Conduct)[0] in real case.
>
> I was asked to remove a few slides from my presentation "7 Reasons why you
> should come to FOSS4G 2015 Seoul”[1], which is at the main page of FOSS4G
> Seoul, as being possibly offensive to women. Specifically to say, slide #6
> (nude female in painting) and slide #20 (row of female models) are those
> controversial ones.
>
> I refused this asking immediately because I don’t believe my presentation
> breach the OSGeo CoC and I don’t agree with that view.
>
> However since this is not the first time asking me to remove those slides
> from my presentation and OSGeo now have CoC, I think we’d better discuss
> this issue more openly to reach conclusions.
>
> I might be wrong and I’d like to hear other people’s opinion on this from
> all around the world. Also I expect Conference Committee’s input as well,
> because this is the matter of OSGeo conference.
>
> I’m open to remove/amend/keep those slides after hearing other people’s
> opinions on this. Also I believe it’ll be a great chance for OSGeo to learn
> how to apply CoC in real cases.
>
> *Sidenote for defending myself:
> - Slide #6 is the part of Salvador Dali’s well known painting named
> “Lincoln in Dalivision”[2]
> - Slide #20 is the picture of famous girl group, Girls’
> Generation(SNSD)[3], which I believe as symbolic icon of wide spread of
> Korean culture(K-Culture) in/around Asia.
>
> All the best,
>
> Sanghee
>
> [0]http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct
> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org
> [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_in_Dalivision
> [3]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girls%27_Generation
> ---
> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
> http://2015.foss4g.org
> Twitter: @foss4g
> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org
>
>
>
> ___
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> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Sanghee Shin]

Dear All, 

I’d like to report updates on our discussion. 

1. Regarding CoC offline discussion at FOSS4G Seoul, we may have discussion at 
BOF meeting[0]. I believe Jeff already marked the timeslot there on 16th 
September. If you need more timeslots, just add to the BOF wiki please. Also if 
you want have any BOF meeting during FOSS4G Seoul, please add your plan to the 
wiki page. 

2. I removed my controversial(?) presentation from the main page. I think it 
was too outdated and  not so attractive. It’s now time to promote through 
FOSS4G Seoul program itself. You may see new main page there[1]. 

Your attending and participation is very crucial to the success of FOSS4G 
Seoul. Please register FOSS4G 
Seoul(http://2015.foss4g.org/attending/registration/ 
) and meet up in Seoul 
altogether!!

All the best, 

Sanghee

[0]http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/FOSS4G_2015_BirdsOfAFeather 

[1]http://2015.foss4g.org/ 
---
Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
"Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
http://2015.foss4g.org
Twitter: @foss4g
Facebook: FOSS4G2015
email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org



> 2015. 6. 25., 오전 9:34, Sanghee Shin  작성:
> 
> Dear All, 
> 
> Thank you for all your great opinions, advices and inputs through this 
> mailing lists and through to my private mail. I think we’ve discussed enough 
> on this. 
> 
> I agree with Maria and Maxi’s suggestion to have a offline discussion time in 
> Seoul. I’ll explore the possibility whether we can have that spaces 
> before/during/after FOSS4G Seoul and will report to you. 
> 
> And I also agree with some advices that because my presentation was highly 
> dependent on verbal explanation, it not so effective itself to deliver my 
> clear intention. I’ll think about how to handle this. 
> 
> Thanks again for great and wonderful inputs. 
> 
> How about having a break for while?
> 
> All the best, 
> 
> Sanghee
> ---
> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul 
> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
> http://2015.foss4g.org 
> Twitter: @foss4g
> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org 
> 
> 
> 
>> 2015. 6. 25., 오전 9:22, Massimiliano Cannata > > 작성:
>> 
>> Once again I express my opinion:
>> I think that OSGeo shall express and support a CoC that is respecting 
>> diversity in any form, but we don not have the right to censure anything.
>> 
>> If something really bad happens than someone will take action based on the 
>> agreed CoC.
>> Do we really want to argue about the images and content of anyone 
>> presentation? 
>> 
>> The community is the best referee of the conduct of its members not a bunch 
>> of people deciding what is good or not.
>> 
>> And YES, we can discuss it in Seoul to find a way to rise attention to the 
>> CoC and discuss more (but friendly and with respect of diversity  ;-) )
>> 
>> 
>> Maxi
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 2015-06-25 10:07 GMT+02:00 Pat Tressel > >:
>> I hesitate to step into the "sexism in tech" debate, but...  There may be 
>> some recent events that folks aren't aware of, that may be relevant -- some 
>> specifically have to do with conferences.  This list is not R-rated, so 
>> rather than directly describe the relevant events, I'll just give you search 
>> queries that will bring them up:
>> 
>> "PyCon donglegate"
>> "TechCrunch sexism"
>> "Pax Dickenson brogrammer"
>> "GamerGate"
>> 
>> Those are only tips of the iceberg -- they are specific symptoms of a more 
>> general attitude.  I've listed them in order of seriousness.  I expect that 
>> these will get the "that's just PC" objection, but are threats of rape and 
>> murder really just "for fun"?  And if the objection is that women just just 
>> force their way into tech, I have two words for you:  hiring manager.  And 
>> no, not all of us have the resources to start our own companies.  Venture 
>> funding is rarely offered to women.
>> 
>> When I worked as a software engineer for Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) 
>> in the 90s, the group I was in was half women.  No, not secretaries and 
>> support staff -- engineers.  But there was a difference in attitude, which 
>> one can see in the fact that although DEC ceased to exist in 1998 (sold to 
>> Compaq), we *still have reunions* and active social networks.  The switch to 
>> deliberately provoking competition and infighting between employees, via 
>> stack ranking and similar management fads, is exacerbating the rise of 
>> sexism in tech -- there is now an aspect of "us against them".  Because 
>> employment is a zero-sum game, (re)entry of women in tech would mean fewer 
>> positions and less money for men.  (Competing against other men doesn't 
>> trigger the same level of response since men are already in the pool -- it's 
>> the thought of the pool *doubling

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Code of Conduct in Real Case

[Charles Schweik]

Hello Sanghee,

I am saddened that you removed the entire presentation, for I think,
overall, it was a good idea. I apologize for my role in that result.

I encourage in the BOF the idea to potentially review key conference
marketing material with an eye toward the messaging before it goes public,
be discussed. Perhaps OSGeo could create a multi-cultural conference
marketing committee for this purpose?

Finally, one of my goals at FOSS4G EU co-leading the GeoForAll discussions
will be to help to identify what the GeoForAll community does in Seoul
during BOF and other open conference times.

I wish you nothing but the best in your upcoming conference.

Respectfully,

Charlie Schweik







On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 12:01 PM, Sanghee Shin  wrote:

> Dear All,
>
> I’d like to report updates on our discussion.
>
> 1. Regarding CoC offline discussion at FOSS4G Seoul, we may have
> discussion at BOF meeting[0]. I believe Jeff already marked the timeslot
> there on 16th September. If you need more timeslots, just add to the BOF
> wiki please. Also if you want have any BOF meeting during FOSS4G Seoul,
> please add your plan to the wiki page.
>
> 2. I removed my controversial(?) presentation from the main page. I think
> it was too outdated and  not so attractive. It’s now time to promote
> through FOSS4G Seoul program itself. You may see new main page there[1].
>
> Your attending and participation is very crucial to the success of FOSS4G
> Seoul. Please register FOSS4G Seoul(
> http://2015.foss4g.org/attending/registration/) and meet up in Seoul
> altogether!!
>
> All the best,
>
> Sanghee
>
> [0]http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/FOSS4G_2015_BirdsOfAFeather
> [1]http://2015.foss4g.org/
> ---
> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
> http://2015.foss4g.org
> Twitter: @foss4g
> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org
>
>
>
> 2015. 6. 25., 오전 9:34, Sanghee Shin  작성:
>
> Dear All,
>
> Thank you for all your great opinions, advices and inputs through this
> mailing lists and through to my private mail. I think we’ve discussed
> enough on this.
>
> I agree with Maria and Maxi’s suggestion to have a offline discussion time
> in Seoul. I’ll explore the possibility whether we can have that spaces
> before/during/after FOSS4G Seoul and will report to you.
>
> And I also agree with some advices that because my presentation was highly
> dependent on verbal explanation, it not so effective itself to deliver my
> clear intention. I’ll think about how to handle this.
>
> Thanks again for great and wonderful inputs.
>
> How about having a break for while?
>
> All the best,
>
> Sanghee
> ---
> Sanghee Shin, Chair of FOSS4G 2015 Seoul
> "Toward Diversity! FOSS4G Bigbang from Seoul!"
> http://2015.foss4g.org
> Twitter: @foss4g
> Facebook: FOSS4G2015
> email: foss4gch...@osgeo.org
>
>
>
> 2015. 6. 25., 오전 9:22, Massimiliano Cannata 
> 작성:
>
> Once again I express my opinion:
> I think that OSGeo shall express and support a CoC that is respecting
> diversity in any form, but we don not have the right to censure anything.
>
> If something really bad happens than someone will take action based on the
> agreed CoC.
> Do we really want to argue about the images and content of anyone
> presentation?
>
> The community is the best referee of the conduct of its members not a
> bunch of people deciding what is good or not.
>
> And YES, we can discuss it in Seoul to find a way to rise attention to the
> CoC and discuss more (but friendly and with respect of diversity  ;-) )
>
>
> Maxi
>
>
>
> 2015-06-25 10:07 GMT+02:00 Pat Tressel :
>
>> I hesitate to step into the "sexism in tech" debate, but...  There may be
>> some recent events that folks aren't aware of, that may be relevant -- some
>> specifically have to do with conferences.  This list is not R-rated, so
>> rather than directly describe the relevant events, I'll just give you
>> search queries that will bring them up:
>>
>> "PyCon donglegate"
>> "TechCrunch sexism"
>> "Pax Dickenson brogrammer"
>> "GamerGate"
>>
>> Those are only tips of the iceberg -- they are specific symptoms of a
>> more general attitude.  I've listed them in order of seriousness.  I expect
>> that these will get the "that's just PC" objection, but are threats of rape
>> and murder really just "for fun"?  And if the objection is that women just
>> just force their way into tech, I have two words for you:  hiring manager.
>> And no, not all of us have the resources to start our own companies.
>> Venture funding is rarely offered to women.
>>
>> When I worked as a software engineer for Digital Equipment Corporation
>> (DEC) in the 90s, the group I was in was half women.  No, not secretaries
>> and support staff -- engineers.  But there was a difference in attitude,
>> which one can see in the fact that although DEC ceased to exist in 1998
>> (sold to Compaq), we *still have reunions* and active social networks.  The
>> switch to deliberately provoking competition an