Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[P Kishor]

On 5/6/08, Christopher Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 11:00:54PM +0200, Dirk Frigne wrote:
>  > > On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 08:21:21PM +0200, Arnulf Christl wrote:
>  > > > What was a Desktop GIS exactly? I only have a browser and for some
>  > > strange
>  > > > reason all that I do starts with an http://...
>  > >
>  > > A Desktop GIS is what you switch to when you realize that the browser
>  > > makes a really poor operating system, and moving outside of it and
>  > > using
>  > > the rest of your computer is important to accomplishing some tasks.
>  >
>
> > I understand your answer, but instead of switching to the desktop GIS only,
>  > you should decide to switch to the server in some circumstances for
>  > accomplishing some tasks...
>
>
> My response to Arnulf was tongue in cheek: sorry that didn't come across
>  well.
>
>


Actually, I thought it was a very well put response. It came off very well.

Recognizing the boundaries of the capabilities of desktop vs. the
browser is perhaps the first step toward making a sane application. A
few capabilities port over from one to the other. The ones that don't
and yet are force-fitted into the wrong environment make for a very
sucky experience.

-- 
Puneet Kishor
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Christopher Schmidt]

On Tue, May 06, 2008 at 11:00:54PM +0200, Dirk Frigne wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 08:21:21PM +0200, Arnulf Christl wrote:
> > > What was a Desktop GIS exactly? I only have a browser and for some
> > strange
> > > reason all that I do starts with an http://...
> > 
> > A Desktop GIS is what you switch to when you realize that the browser
> > makes a really poor operating system, and moving outside of it and
> > using
> > the rest of your computer is important to accomplishing some tasks.
> 
> I understand your answer, but instead of switching to the desktop GIS only,
> you should decide to switch to the server in some circumstances for
> accomplishing some tasks...

My response to Arnulf was tongue in cheek: sorry that didn't come across
well.

Regards,
-- 
Christopher Schmidt
Web Developer
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Dirk Frigne]

> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:discuss-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] Namens Christopher Schmidt
> Verzonden: vrijdag 25 april 2008 20:52
> Aan: OSGeo Discussions
> Onderwerp: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as
> with ESRI)?
> 
> On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 08:21:21PM +0200, Arnulf Christl wrote:
> > What was a Desktop GIS exactly? I only have a browser and for some
> strange
> > reason all that I do starts with an http://...
> 
> A Desktop GIS is what you switch to when you realize that the browser
> makes a really poor operating system, and moving outside of it and
> using
> the rest of your computer is important to accomplishing some tasks.


Hey Christopher,

I understand your answer, but instead of switching to the desktop GIS only,
you should decide to switch to the server in some circumstances for
accomplishing some tasks...

The decision is based in m.h.o. on the level of control that is needed for
these complex tasks. If they are to be controlled by the user (you decide
the sequences and algoritmes) then a desktop GIS makes sense. If you want to
provide pre-calcualted complex tasks and use cases, the server side approach
makes more sense.

I am working on a Browser based 'desktop' GIS application framework. For all
sort of applications in the latter case, the browser/server based
architecture has advantages above the GIS desktop solution. 


sincerly,
Dirk Frigne
http://www.gegis.org
http://www.frigne.be
http://majas.dfc.be


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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Randy George]

I know this is not OS but GoogleChart is easy to use:
http://code.google.com/apis/chart/ 

http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=p3&chd=t:20,40,30,10&chs=250x100&chl=
Hello|World|of|Google

and it can be used to add chart icons for use in online mapping interfaces,
not necessarily Google's, and not just pie charts. However, as with all of
Google stuff the license is a gotcha for most businesses.

Adding your own similar chart tool using svg or wpf/Silverlight interfaces
would not be much of a problem. Plus you get better scaling with vector
graphics along with click/rollover/tooltip... capabilities. 

Raster Icon charts seem to be a useable approach for map data as discussed
here:
http://blog.thematicmapping.org/2008/04/using-google-charts-with-kml.html

I'd favor vector if you want drill-in capability though. 

randy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mohamed Ghareeb
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 5:14 AM
To: 'OSGeo Discussions'
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with
ESRI)?

Concerning OpenJump it is really good but I couldn't make a pie chart map
with it as I could do with Arcview 3.x 
I added the charts plugin but I think It doesn't classify the size of charts
symbol. 
Does anyone can do it by any open-source GIS?

Mohamed Mostafa

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Landon Blake
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:36 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with
ESRI)?

A convert! Welcome Jennifer.

I can't speak for GRASS, but I know that OpenJUMP
(http://jump-pilot.sourceforge.net/OpenJUMP.html) could be compared to
the old 3.X Arcview. It has limited printing abilities at this point in
time, but I don't think there is a better cross-platform tool for basic
ESRI Shapefile manipulation. (I'm a volunteer on the project and
therefore biased in my opinion on this matter.)

I think you will find you can do 95% of what you could with ESRI
software, you'll just have to do it with an assortment of tools instead
of a single tool.

Landon

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jennifer Horsman
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:41 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with
ESRI)?

The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source 
career" got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling 
around in my head. This is pointed at those people who have experience 
with ESRI products as well as OS GIS products.

I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my 
own contract business and will not be able to afford the license for 
ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed, 
but it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably 
changed since then too!)

Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I 
know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would 
be where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to 
the ESRI products?

Thanks,
Jennifer



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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Mohamed Ghareeb]

Concerning OpenJump it is really good but I couldn't make a pie chart map
with it as I could do with Arcview 3.x 
I added the charts plugin but I think It doesn't classify the size of charts
symbol. 
Does anyone can do it by any open-source GIS?

Mohamed Mostafa

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Landon Blake
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 10:36 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with
ESRI)?

A convert! Welcome Jennifer.

I can't speak for GRASS, but I know that OpenJUMP
(http://jump-pilot.sourceforge.net/OpenJUMP.html) could be compared to
the old 3.X Arcview. It has limited printing abilities at this point in
time, but I don't think there is a better cross-platform tool for basic
ESRI Shapefile manipulation. (I'm a volunteer on the project and
therefore biased in my opinion on this matter.)

I think you will find you can do 95% of what you could with ESRI
software, you'll just have to do it with an assortment of tools instead
of a single tool.

Landon

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jennifer Horsman
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:41 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with
ESRI)?

The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source 
career" got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling 
around in my head. This is pointed at those people who have experience 
with ESRI products as well as OS GIS products.

I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my 
own contract business and will not be able to afford the license for 
ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed, 
but it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably 
changed since then too!)

Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I 
know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would 
be where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to 
the ESRI products?

Thanks,
Jennifer



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Jorge Gaspar Sanz Salinas]

2008/4/26 Saka Royban <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> ٍExcellent discussion.
> I have been an ArcGIS user and now i am transferring to OS.
> in my opinion, the best point of ArcGIS is that you everything in 1 package
> => simplifying tasks
> about OS, at least i see no difference in Web-GIS domain. OS softwares like
> UMN mapserver and Mapguide OS sometimes work better.
> in the field of Desktop GIS, although QGIS, GRASS,Sharpmap and other tools
> are available but in a diverse manner.
> the main problem is that the most powerful OS sotfware (GRASS) in this area
> is under Linux not windows (=> developing desktop GIS tools sounds very
> difficult). As announced by GRASS dev group, this problem is gonna solve
> soon.
>
> ===> OS GIS support most of expected needs from GIS, but sometimes with
> consuming more time.
>
>
>
> - Original Message 
> From: Malte Halbey-Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: OSGeo Discussions 
> Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 11:56:26 AM
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with
> ESRI)?
>
>  Hi,
>
> IMHO the most barrier for people using OS GIS is the lack of a user
> friendly interface, especially for map production and digitising. I know
> that this has been stated before in this thread, but I want stress this
> point out.
>
> I'm working as as supporter and software trainer for a software company
> and not few of our customers are paying much money for applications,
> which simplifys/extend the common ArcGIS funcitonallity! Most people are
> overstrained about the functionallity of GIS software. I think the users
> of GIS have changed over the past decade. More common people have to
> work with GIS (especially public servants). GIS has become a common
> software tool so the users aren't only specialist as some years ago!
> This "new" users just want to have a button and that's it. Don't ask
> them to create a sql string for extracting some data out of a database.
>
> So as already mentioned, OS GIS NEEDS as userfriendly Interface,
> powerful digitizing and map production tools which are easy to use. When
> these issues have been solved, we will see a strong rising spread of  OS
> GIS software.
>
> Just my opinion.
> Malte
> PS: I love OS Software, but I just want to see a rising distribution of it!
>
>

Hi

I'm enjoying a lot with that thread as always  a Free/Privative
comparison appears.

But I'm quite  surprised because it seems that privative geosoftware
is only ESRI, what about Geomedia, ERDAS, ERMapper, Smallworld... for
instance

IMHO, free desktop GIS is not so far from privative solutions. With
nice projects like QGis/GRASS or gvSIG I think we are not far from
having almost all the funcitonality any user could need for
collecting, analise and output.

Creating nice paper outputs for me it's really important (and current
user-friendly tools are far from producing acceptable maps) but maybe
there are other outputs like SVG, KML or map server configuration
files that are really important as the Internet is there and almost
all of use use more web maps rather than paper maps.

For me, one of the most worrying lacks in FOSS4G is an ArcSDE
alternative because at this time there is not way for concurrence
corporative database editing. GeoServer project sees that as a
long-term project in their roadmap[2][3] but if we want a powerful
web-distributed editing we need it right now.

Regards

[1]http://www.sigte.udg.es/jornadassiglibre/uploads/file/Presentaciones/20.ppt
[2]http://geoserver.org/display/GEOS/Roadmap
[3]http://geoserver.org/display/GEOS/Open+Source+ArcSDE
-- 
Jorge Gaspar Sanz Salinas
Ingeniero en Geodesia y Cartografía
http://www.geomaticblog.net
http://www.prodevelop.es
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Saka Royban]

ٍExcellent discussion.
I have been an ArcGIS user and now i am transferring to OS.
in my opinion, the best point of ArcGIS is that you everything in 1 package => 
simplifying tasks
about OS, at least i see no difference in Web-GIS domain. OS softwares like UMN 
mapserver and Mapguide OS sometimes work better.
in the field of Desktop GIS, although QGIS, GRASS,Sharpmap and other tools are 
available but in a diverse manner.
the main problem is that the most powerful OS sotfware (GRASS) in this area is 
under Linux not windows (=> developing desktop GIS tools sounds very 
difficult). As announced by GRASS dev group, this problem is gonna solve soon.

===> OS GIS support most of expected needs from GIS, but sometimes with 
consuming more time.


- Original Message 
From: Malte Halbey-Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: OSGeo Discussions 
Sent: Saturday, April 26, 2008 11:56:26 AM
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

Hi,

IMHO the most barrier for people using OS GIS is the lack of a user
friendly interface, especially for map production and digitising. I know
that this has been stated before in this thread, but I want stress this
point out.

I'm working as as supporter and software trainer for a software company
and not few of our customers are paying much money for applications,
which simplifys/extend the common ArcGIS funcitonallity! Most people are
overstrained about the functionallity of GIS software. I think the users
of GIS have changed over the past decade. More common people have to
work with GIS (especially public servants). GIS has become a common
software tool so the users aren't only specialist as some years ago!
This "new" users just want to have a button and that's it. Don't ask
them to create a sql string for extracting some data out of a database.

So as already mentioned, OS GIS NEEDS as userfriendly Interface,
powerful digitizing and map production tools which are easy to use. When
these issues have been solved, we will see a strong rising spread of  OS
GIS software.

Just my opinion.
Malte
PS: I love OS Software, but I just want to see a rising distribution of it!


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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Agustin Diez Castillo]

gvSIG (Tyler already metioned it) is great to work with vectors.  
Actually, ESRI Spain don't like it because is to similar to arcGIS, in  
their words. I can't say, I haven't used ArcGIS, but gvSIG [1] +  
Sextante [2] is perfect tool to produce nice maps easily. The whole  
transport and infraestructure UNIT is using it. Take a look.

[1] http://gvsig.org
[2] http://www.sextantegis.com

El Apr 26, 2008, a las 9:01 AM, RAVI KUMAR escribió:


Hi Cameron,
the table of comparison is informative.
Most of the ARC-GIS users (my personal view) are Vector GIS users.
They are concerned of
1. Registration of Paper maps into GIS
2. Attribution
3. Analysis depending on their need.

CAD

4. Outputs of the above are also to be plotted in elegant maps with  
proper symbology and standard colors.


As an OSGeo enthusiast I recommend a cocktail of OS GIS software mix.


OpenJUMP and Qgis for steps Qgis 1 to 3
Qgis and GRASS for advanced analysis
GRASS for statistical analysis with R

OpenJUMP and Inkscape for step 4. As a geologist I get oriented  
structures properly symbolised and rotated (possible in OpenJUMP)


Am making some notes and soon wish to offer for downloading through  
GRASS and OpenJUMP websites.


Ravi Kumar


Cameron Shorter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ravi,
What us Open Source evangelists are missing is an honest comparison
between ESRI desktop applications and Open Source equivalents.

What is it about ArcView and ArcGIS that people really like, listed
feature by feature in a table.
Then identify whether Open Source covers it and how.
Very important is to address usability. How quickly can an Arc* user
migrate to Open Source?
My skill set is lacking here as I don't have much experience in either
ESRI or the Open Source desktop tools. It seems like you have  
experience

with both which puts you in a unique position.

Is this something you, or one of your students would like to  
investigate

further? Maybe build a table similar to this one:
http://www.spatialserver.net/osgis/Desktopgis_overview.htm

RAVI KUMAR wrote:
> Hi,
> this is the kind of question I face when in my lectures evangelising
> OS GIS.
> ArcGIS has many tools, though some prefer to call it a deluge of
> tools, which almost distance the user from understanding the concept
> of GIS.
>
> Auto Complete Polygon:
> In Qgis which is a very userfriendly OS GIS you have 'Cut  
polygon', do

> try and find the difference.
>
> Polygonising from lines:
> Open JUMP has one of the most userfriendly approaches.
> Create lines and polygonise in OpenJUMP and the software  
automatically

> creates a folder for Dangles (un-wanted line pieces)
>
> The query is more for Vector GIS, I suppose.
>
> GRASS GIS:
> It has so many features for Image analysis and Raster GIS, the
> commercial GIS need a barge pole to even touch it. The vector Part  
of

> GRASS is robust too.
>
> Ravi Kumar
>
>
> */Markus Neteler /* wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 11:55 PM, George R. C. Silva
> wrote:
> ...
> > One thing GIS OS software could have are better editing tools. I
> do miss
> > them alot, and the one is ArcGIS are unbeatable (i dont know any
> O.S.
> > software that have 'autocomplete polygon', tons of snapping
> options, etc -
> > btw, if you do, let me know).
> >
> > FOSS is great, but it lacks (IMHO) better editing options.
>
> We are working on that:
> http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/WxPython-based_GUI_for_GRASS#Digitizer
>
> Screenshots:
> http://grass.osgeo.org/screenshots/gui.php
> -> wxPython (new GUI)
>
> You can try out the prototype in GRASS 6.3.0 (released yesterday):
> http://grass.osgeo.org/announces/announce_grass630.html
>
> Get MacOSX, Linux and now even native MS-Windows binaries with
> *installer* at
> http://grass.osgeo.org/download/index.php#g63x
>
> Enjoy
> Markus
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Geospatial Systems Architect
Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050
Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254

Think Globally, Fix Locally
Commercial Support for Geospatial Open Source Solutions
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[RAVI KUMAR]

Changing Goal Posts

This is more for the proprietory software, where they have to keep their heads 
above the water line. So CAD software try to become GIS and GIS software adds 
Image analysis and Image aanalysis software tries to add GIS features.

For Open Source GIS, all open source software is our playing field.
Grass GIS recommends Qgis for easier on screen digitisation. Grass goes with 
GMT for map generation. OpenJUMP recommends Inkscape for producing elegant 
hardcopy maps. Grass, Qgis OpenJUMP and scores of other Open GIS software use 
PostGIS for database and UMNS for Web Applications.

A mix of Open GIS and related software is the right solution. 
for the user who asked, "Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?".
You can do more than that.

Ravi Kumar 

Malte Halbey-Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi,

IMHO the most barrier for people using OS GIS is the lack of a user
friendly interface, especially for map production and digitising. I know
that this has been stated before in this thread, but I want stress this
point out.

I'm working as as supporter and software trainer for a software company
and not few of our customers are paying much money for applications,
which simplifys/extend the common ArcGIS funcitonallity! Most people are
overstrained about the functionallity of GIS software. I think the users
of GIS have changed over the past decade. More common people have to
work with GIS (especially public servants). GIS has become a common
software tool so the users aren't only specialist as some years ago!
This "new" users just want to have a button and that's it. Don't ask
them to create a sql string for extracting some data out of a database.

So as already mentioned, OS GIS NEEDS as userfriendly Interface,
powerful digitizing and map production tools which are easy to use. When
these issues have been solved, we will see a strong rising spread of  OS
GIS software.

Just my opinion.
Malte
PS: I love OS Software, but I just want to see a rising distribution of it!


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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Malte Halbey-Martin]

Hi,

IMHO the most barrier for people using OS GIS is the lack of a user
friendly interface, especially for map production and digitising. I know
that this has been stated before in this thread, but I want stress this
point out.

I'm working as as supporter and software trainer for a software company
and not few of our customers are paying much money for applications,
which simplifys/extend the common ArcGIS funcitonallity! Most people are
overstrained about the functionallity of GIS software. I think the users
of GIS have changed over the past decade. More common people have to
work with GIS (especially public servants). GIS has become a common
software tool so the users aren't only specialist as some years ago!
This "new" users just want to have a button and that's it. Don't ask
them to create a sql string for extracting some data out of a database.

So as already mentioned, OS GIS NEEDS as userfriendly Interface,
powerful digitizing and map production tools which are easy to use. When
these issues have been solved, we will see a strong rising spread of  OS
GIS software.

Just my opinion.
Malte
PS: I love OS Software, but I just want to see a rising distribution of it!


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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[RAVI KUMAR]

Hi Cameron,
the table of comparison is informative.
Most of the ARC-GIS users (my personal view) are Vector GIS users.
They are concerned of
1. Registration of Paper maps into GIS
2. Attribution
3. Analysis depending on their need.

CAD

4. Outputs of the above are also to be plotted in elegant maps with proper 
symbology and standard colors.

As an OSGeo enthusiast I recommend a cocktail of OS GIS software mix.


OpenJUMP and Qgis for steps Qgis 1 to 3
Qgis and GRASS for advanced analysis  
GRASS for statistical analysis with R

OpenJUMP and Inkscape for step 4. As a geologist I get oriented structures 
properly symbolised and rotated (possible in OpenJUMP)

Am making some notes and soon wish to offer for downloading through GRASS and 
OpenJUMP websites.

Ravi Kumar


Cameron Shorter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Ravi,
What us Open Source evangelists are missing is an honest comparison 
between ESRI desktop applications and Open Source equivalents.

What is it about ArcView and ArcGIS that people really like, listed 
feature by feature in a table.
Then identify whether Open Source covers it and how.
Very important is to address usability. How quickly can an Arc* user 
migrate to Open Source?
My skill set is lacking here as I don't have much experience in either 
ESRI or the Open Source desktop tools. It seems like you have experience 
with both which puts you in a unique position.

Is this something you, or one of your students would like to investigate 
further? Maybe build a table similar to this one:
http://www.spatialserver.net/osgis/Desktopgis_overview.htm

RAVI KUMAR wrote:
> Hi,
> this is the kind of question I face when in my lectures evangelising 
> OS GIS.
> ArcGIS has many tools, though some prefer to call it a deluge of 
> tools, which almost distance the user from understanding the concept 
> of GIS.
>
> Auto Complete Polygon:
> In Qgis which is a very userfriendly OS GIS you have 'Cut polygon', do 
> try and find the difference.
>
> Polygonising from lines:
> Open JUMP has one of the most userfriendly approaches.
> Create lines and polygonise in OpenJUMP and the software automatically
> creates a folder for Dangles (un-wanted line pieces)
>
> The query is more for Vector GIS, I suppose.
>
> GRASS GIS:
> It has so many features for Image analysis and Raster GIS, the 
> commercial GIS need a barge pole to even touch it. The vector Part of 
> GRASS is robust too.
>
> Ravi Kumar
>
>
> */Markus Neteler /* wrote:
>
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 11:55 PM, George R. C. Silva
> wrote:
> ...
> > One thing GIS OS software could have are better editing tools. I
> do miss
> > them alot, and the one is ArcGIS are unbeatable (i dont know any
> O.S.
> > software that have 'autocomplete polygon', tons of snapping
> options, etc -
> > btw, if you do, let me know).
> >
> > FOSS is great, but it lacks (IMHO) better editing options.
>
> We are working on that:
> http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/WxPython-based_GUI_for_GRASS#Digitizer
>
> Screenshots:
> http://grass.osgeo.org/screenshots/gui.php
> -> wxPython (new GUI)
>
> You can try out the prototype in GRASS 6.3.0 (released yesterday):
> http://grass.osgeo.org/announces/announce_grass630.html
>
> Get MacOSX, Linux and now even native MS-Windows binaries with
> *installer* at
> http://grass.osgeo.org/download/index.php#g63x
>
> Enjoy
> Markus
> ___
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> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
>
> 
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> it now. 
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>
> 
>
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Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050
Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254

Think Globally, Fix Locally
Commercial Support for Geospatial Open Source Solutions
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Wolf Bergenheim]

On 26.04.2008 08:44, Cameron Shorter wrote:

Ravi,
What us Open Source evangelists are missing is an honest comparison 
between ESRI desktop applications and Open Source equivalents.




This has been done somewhat. You might find it interesting reading.

--Wolf

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [GRASS-user] [Fwd: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS 
Tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?]

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:13:49 +0200
From: Markus Metz
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Todd Buchanan compared GRASS and ArcGIS in his master thesis (Geoscience
/ GIS):

Title: Thesis – Comparison of ArcGIS 9.0 and GRASS 6.0: Case Study and
Implementation.
·   Detailed costs and benefits of each GIS and included a
comparison of acquisition, installation, implementation, and utilization.
· Involved Landsat image classification and analysis of urbanization
of Eugene, OR.

You can get the thesis here:
http://www.toddbuchanan.net/thesis_ver.pdf

The thesis used GRASS 6.0 and GRASS became even better since then:-) I
would not agree with TB's statement of technical support being virtually
non-existent, because you get answers quickly in the mailing lists.

I hope that helps,

Markus Metz

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Cameron Shorter]

Ravi,
What us Open Source evangelists are missing is an honest comparison 
between ESRI desktop applications and Open Source equivalents.


What is it about ArcView and ArcGIS that people really like, listed 
feature by feature in a table.

Then identify whether Open Source covers it and how.
Very important is to address usability. How quickly can an Arc* user 
migrate to Open Source?
My skill set is lacking here as I don't have much experience in either 
ESRI or the Open Source desktop tools. It seems like you have experience 
with both which puts you in a unique position.


Is this something you, or one of your students would like to investigate 
further? Maybe build a table similar to this one:

http://www.spatialserver.net/osgis/Desktopgis_overview.htm

RAVI KUMAR wrote:

Hi,
this is the kind of question I face when in my lectures evangelising 
OS GIS.
ArcGIS has many tools, though some prefer to call it a deluge of 
tools, which almost distance the user from understanding the concept 
of GIS.


Auto Complete Polygon:
In Qgis which is a very userfriendly OS GIS you have 'Cut polygon', do 
try and find the difference.


Polygonising from lines:
Open JUMP has one of the most userfriendly approaches.
Create lines and polygonise in OpenJUMP and the software automatically
creates a folder for Dangles (un-wanted line pieces)

The query is more for Vector GIS, I suppose.

GRASS GIS:
It has so many features for Image analysis and Raster GIS, the 
commercial GIS need a barge pole to even touch it. The vector Part of 
GRASS is robust too.


Ravi Kumar


*/Markus Neteler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 11:55 PM, George R. C. Silva
wrote:
...
> One thing GIS OS software could have are better editing tools. I
do miss
> them alot, and the one is ArcGIS are unbeatable (i dont know any
O.S.
> software that have 'autocomplete polygon', tons of snapping
options, etc -
> btw, if you do, let me know).
>
> FOSS is great, but it lacks (IMHO) better editing options.

We are working on that:
http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/WxPython-based_GUI_for_GRASS#Digitizer

Screenshots:
http://grass.osgeo.org/screenshots/gui.php
-> wxPython (new GUI)

You can try out the prototype in GRASS 6.3.0 (released yesterday):
http://grass.osgeo.org/announces/announce_grass630.html

Get MacOSX, Linux and now even native MS-Windows binaries with
*installer* at
http://grass.osgeo.org/download/index.php#g63x

Enjoy
Markus
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Tel: +61 (0)2 8570 5050
Mob: +61 (0)419 142 254

Think Globally, Fix Locally
Commercial Support for Geospatial Open Source Solutions
http://www.lisasoft.com/LISAsoft/SupportedProducts.html

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[RAVI KUMAR]

Hi,
this is the kind of question I face when in my lectures evangelising OS GIS.
ArcGIS has many tools, though some prefer to call it a deluge of tools, which 
almost distance the user from understanding the concept of GIS.

Auto Complete Polygon: 
In Qgis which is a very userfriendly OS GIS you have 'Cut polygon', do try and 
find the difference.

Polygonising from lines:
Open JUMP has one of the most userfriendly approaches.
Create lines and polygonise in OpenJUMP and the software automatically 
creates a folder for Dangles (un-wanted line pieces)

The query is more for Vector GIS, I suppose.

GRASS GIS:
It has so many features for Image analysis and Raster GIS, the commercial GIS 
need a barge pole to even touch it. The vector Part of GRASS is robust too.

Ravi Kumar


Markus Neteler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 11:55 PM, 
George R. C. Silva
 wrote:
...
>  One thing GIS OS software could have are better editing tools. I do miss
> them alot, and the one is ArcGIS are unbeatable (i dont know any O.S.
> software that have 'autocomplete polygon', tons of snapping options, etc -
> btw, if you do, let me know).
>
>  FOSS is great, but it lacks (IMHO) better editing options.

We are working on that:
 http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/WxPython-based_GUI_for_GRASS#Digitizer

Screenshots:
 http://grass.osgeo.org/screenshots/gui.php
 -> wxPython (new GUI)

You can try out the prototype in GRASS 6.3.0 (released yesterday):
 http://grass.osgeo.org/announces/announce_grass630.html

Get MacOSX, Linux and now even native MS-Windows binaries with *installer* at
 http://grass.osgeo.org/download/index.php#g63x

Enjoy
Markus
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[andrea antonello]

> > I agree with Paul, power without control doesn't lead anywhere. GRASS
> > is of huge power, but following my past commercial experiences, I
> >
>
>  Hehe, didn't you just say "my past proprietary experiences"?
>
>  Sorry to be dense and all that...

No worries, but I really meant: "my past commercial experienses", i.e.
proprietary and not, but for sure commercial.
We are talking about bussiness, are we? Yes, I think we are :-)

>  PS:
>  What was a Desktop GIS exactly? I only have a browser and for some strange
> reason all that I do starts with an http://...

We are an example of bussiness that earn money without a http://, just
heavy environmental calculations. Don't know a thing about http.
Even if 98% is about web, not everything is :-)

Ciao
Andrea


>
>
>
>
> > would say "in general no, because most times they don't want the
> > overhead of GRASS for exactly those things they need".
> >
> > Andrea
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >  --Wolf
> > >
> > >  --
> > >
> > >  <:3 ) Wolf Bergenheim ( 8:>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  ___
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> > >
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[P Kishor]

On 4/25/08, Arnulf Christl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
..

>  Legacy GIS Architect
>

In the world of neogeography punks, this is a nice throwback to the future.
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Arnulf Christl]

On Fri, April 25, 2008 20:51, Christopher Schmidt wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 08:21:21PM +0200, Arnulf Christl wrote:
>
>> What was a Desktop GIS exactly? I only have a browser and for some
>> strange reason all that I do starts with an http://...
>
> A Desktop GIS is what you switch to when you realize that the browser
> makes a really poor operating system, and moving outside of it and using
> the rest of your computer is important to accomplishing some tasks.

This makes for a good redefinition of Desktop GIS. Pity my HD is too
flimsy to carry all those PB of data.

> The browser is great for a lot of things. There are also many things it
> is not great for. Knowing the difference is an important step to being
> successful in creating a solution that works well to meet the needs of the
> problem.

Think Programmable Web and Basement GIS.

> Regards,
> --
> Christopher Schmidt
> Web Developer

Regards,
-- 
Arnulf Christl
Legacy GIS Architect

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Markus Neteler]

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 11:55 PM, George R. C. Silva
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...
>  One thing GIS OS software could have are better editing tools. I do miss
> them alot, and the one is ArcGIS are unbeatable (i dont know any O.S.
> software that have 'autocomplete polygon', tons of snapping options, etc -
> btw, if you do, let me know).
>
>  FOSS is great, but it lacks (IMHO) better editing options.

We are working on that:
 http://grass.osgeo.org/wiki/WxPython-based_GUI_for_GRASS#Digitizer

Screenshots:
 http://grass.osgeo.org/screenshots/gui.php
 -> wxPython (new GUI)

You can try out the prototype in GRASS 6.3.0 (released yesterday):
 http://grass.osgeo.org/announces/announce_grass630.html

Get MacOSX, Linux and now even native MS-Windows binaries with *installer* at
 http://grass.osgeo.org/download/index.php#g63x

Enjoy
Markus
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Markus Neteler]

This is why I proposed
 http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/OSGeo_Cartographic_Library

:)

Markus

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 11:30 PM, David William Bitner
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I would agree with Paul.  The biggest hole in the FOSS stack is in easy,
> high quality printed map production.  This is the one task where the Arc
> tools beat anything I have seen in FOSS GIS hands down.
>
> David
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Christopher Schmidt]

On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 08:21:21PM +0200, Arnulf Christl wrote:
> What was a Desktop GIS exactly? I only have a browser and for some strange 
> reason all that I do starts with an http://...

A Desktop GIS is what you switch to when you realize that the browser
makes a really poor operating system, and moving outside of it and using
the rest of your computer is important to accomplishing some tasks. 

The browser is great for a lot of things. There are also many things it
is not great for. Knowing the difference is an important step to being
successful in creating a solution that works well to meet the needs of
the problem.

Regards,
-- 
Christopher Schmidt
Web Developer
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Arnulf Christl]

andrea antonello wrote:

Among the things that QGIS (and other open source desktops) can't do
are a table join, a spatial join


 I'm not sure what you mean with spatial join, but if you mean overlay, and
raster combination GRASS can do, and it can also do table joins, while it
overlays two vector layers.




In response to the query "can I replace ArcView with
open source", my answer is "in general, no, but maybe for a specific
use case".


 I'd say: "In general yes (In some respects GRASS is superior to Arc in
analysis), but some things can be harder / more complicated or not
possible". GRASS is a perfectly capable desktop GIS package with over 200
modules.


I agree with Paul, power without control doesn't lead anywhere. GRASS
is of huge power, but following my past commercial experiences, I


Hehe, didn't you just say "my past proprietary experiences"?

Sorry to be dense and all that...

:-)

PS:
What was a Desktop GIS exactly? I only have a browser and for some strange 
reason all that I do starts with an http://...


would say "in general no, because most times they don't want the
overhead of GRASS for exactly those things they need".

Andrea





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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Tyler Mitchell (OSGeo)]

I agree with some of the other responses that challenge the way of  
traditional thinking.  Desktop GIS, Web and Databases are the tools  
of today - it's interesting to watch the various ways they come  
together (collide?) in projects.  If you look to replace desktop  
proprietary options, you may find that web-based tools start to fit  
the bill.  Or to do analysis you may find the database tools open up  
more possibilities, etc..


Personally I find it a great challenge to keep up with various  
developments in the OS field.  Even within OSGeo projects there is so  
much happening that it is hard to know which hurdles have been  
overcome or not.  For example, projects like GRASS, QGIS, gvSIG all  
have goals to improve various components and their improvements are  
at various stages.


Some, like gvSIG, have specific goals to fill the exact needs you  
have.  QGIS + GRASS makes a powerful combination, though I can't  
speak to its usability.  gvSIG + SEXTANTE makes similar strides in  
power.  Then there are the service-based opportunities using WPS via  
PyWPS, deegree, 52 North, etc.


I've got no hard answer because I feel the goal posts are constantly  
moving, and the others have touched on more specifics.


Hope that general answers helps somewhat.

Tyler

On 24-Apr-08, at 12:41 PM, Jennifer Horsman wrote:

The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open  
source career" got me thinking about asking a question that has  
been rolling around in my head. This is pointed at those people who  
have experience with ESRI products as well as OS GIS products.


I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start  
my own contract business and will not be able to afford the license  
for ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS  
installed, but it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS  
(it has probably changed since then too!)


Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as  
ArcGIS? I know this is a very general question, so perhaps another  
question would be where does GRASS fall short and where does it  
excel in comparison to the ESRI products?


Thanks,
Jennifer


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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[andrea antonello]

> > Among the things that QGIS (and other open source desktops) can't do
> > are a table join, a spatial join
> >
>
>  I'm not sure what you mean with spatial join, but if you mean overlay, and
> raster combination GRASS can do, and it can also do table joins, while it
> overlays two vector layers.
>
>
>
> > In response to the query "can I replace ArcView with
> > open source", my answer is "in general, no, but maybe for a specific
> > use case".
> >
>
>  I'd say: "In general yes (In some respects GRASS is superior to Arc in
> analysis), but some things can be harder / more complicated or not
> possible". GRASS is a perfectly capable desktop GIS package with over 200
> modules.

I agree with Paul, power without control doesn't lead anywhere. GRASS
is of huge power, but following my past commercial experiences, I
would say "in general no, because most times they don't want the
overhead of GRASS for exactly those things they need".

Andrea




>
>  --Wolf
>
>  --
>
>  <:3 ) Wolf Bergenheim ( 8:>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Wolf Bergenheim]

On 25.04.2008 17:55, Paul Ramsey wrote:

Paolo,

Among the things that QGIS (and other open source desktops) can't do
are a table join, a spatial join


I'm not sure what you mean with spatial join, but if you mean overlay, 
and raster combination GRASS can do, and it can also do table joins, 
while it overlays two vector layers.



In response to the query "can I replace ArcView with
open source", my answer is "in general, no, but maybe for a specific
use case".


I'd say: "In general yes (In some respects GRASS is superior to Arc in 
analysis), but some things can be harder / more complicated or not 
possible". GRASS is a perfectly capable desktop GIS package with over 
200 modules.


--Wolf

--

<:3 ) Wolf Bergenheim ( 8:>

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Paul Ramsey]

Paolo,

Among the things that QGIS (and other open source desktops) can't do
are a table join, a spatial join, high quality paper output, and
symbolized thematic mapping.  Particular drawbacks of QGIS include the
single-threaded user interface model (ui locks during render, making
work with large files very stop-n-go) and relatively simple editing
tools.

I think it's contingent on us as evangelizers to not over-sell. I
would not recommend QGIS or any other open source desktop to someone
whose prior experience was Arc* until I had a clear understanding of
the use case. In response to the query "can I replace ArcView with
open source", my answer is "in general, no, but maybe for a specific
use case".

P.

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 11:37 PM, Paolo Cavallini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Paul Ramsey ha scritto:
>
> > I'd buck up for a copy of ArcView (much cheaper than ArcGIS), and use
>  > GRASS / PostGIS / etc tools for things like analysis. You can use
>  > ArcView to generate the paper and do some quick low-end analytics and
>  > the other tools for more involved stuff.
>
>  A reasonably good replacement for ArcView is also QGIS (which integrates
>  nicely with GRASS, btw).
>  pc
>  --
>  Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc
>  Noi ci troviamo con parecchie difficoltà con NGI http://www.ngi.it/
>
>
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Paolo Cavallini]

George R. C. Silva ha scritto:

> One thing GIS OS software could have are better editing tools. I do miss
> them alot, and the one is ArcGIS are unbeatable (i dont know any O.S.
> software that have 'autocomplete polygon', tons of snapping options, etc
> - btw, if you do, let me know).

Have you tried GRASS and the latest (0.9.2rc1) QGIS for PostGIS editing?
pc
-- 
Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc
Noi ci troviamo con parecchie difficoltà con NGI http://www.ngi.it/
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Paolo Cavallini]

Paul Ramsey ha scritto:
> I'd buck up for a copy of ArcView (much cheaper than ArcGIS), and use
> GRASS / PostGIS / etc tools for things like analysis. You can use
> ArcView to generate the paper and do some quick low-end analytics and
> the other tools for more involved stuff.

A reasonably good replacement for ArcView is also QGIS (which integrates
nicely with GRASS, btw).
pc
-- 
Paolo Cavallini, see: http://www.faunalia.it/pc
Noi ci troviamo con parecchie difficoltà con NGI http://www.ngi.it/
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[John Callahan]

A few things...

- As you alluded to, it's very easy to create a seamless mosaic, or a 
raster catalog.  And pyramids (overviews) and statistics are created 
automatically, if you like.  The same loading process works if you have 
a one IMG file at 2 GB, or 100 JPEGs at 100 MB each, or 2000 TIFs at 200 
MB each.  (size limitations based upon your backend database.)


- The loading process is simply using ArcCatalog and easy built in 
tools. Or using a command line function (sderaster -o mosaic) wrapped in 
a script.  Or, any ArcObjects code you write (if you can figure that 
out!)For one file, you simply right-click and say Load into ArcSDE.


- It's also nice to use the same storage mechanism for both vectors and 
rasters, for shared daily GIS use within my group, and for production 
web apps.  And performance is very good in an all-ESRI solution (I 
haven't tried with non-ESRI clients)



Problems come in because ArcGIS Desktop crashes quite often when dealing 
with large datasets.  It's slow and unreliable. Did you ever try to load 
a bunch of rasters just to have it crash 3 days later?  The statements I 
mentioned above work very well for small datasets and touch-and-go with 
larger data.  The ArcSDE and RDBMS work great, it's the clients that 
break down and are slow.  I also don't want to deal with the headaches 
of managing Oracle (it's a beast!) and, obviously, I don't want to deal 
with the extremely high costs of an Oracle/ESRI solution. 

I also want to share applications, share code, run the same products at 
home or at work, and run on multiple platforms.  FOSS geo software fall 
more in line with my philosophical beliefs. I work at a university and 
it costs me very little for Oracle and ESRI products (for university 
related projects), and I still want to implement open source!


- John




Paul Ramsey wrote:

 3) Storage and serving of very large (50+ GB) raster datasets.  PostGIS
does not support rasters yet; Oracle Spatial does though.  I'm still not
sure if storing rasters in a database is a good idea but ArcSDE sure makes
it easy, and with good performance when used in conjunction with other ESRI
products.



John,

What is it about ArcSDE and raster that makes it easy? I have no
experience with it, but there must be something about the process that
seems easier to you than other options do. Is it just the clarity of
the process? (you do a, b, c, and d, and then voila, it's all a
seamless mosaic?) Or is there something else?

P
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Paul Ramsey]

>  3) Storage and serving of very large (50+ GB) raster datasets.  PostGIS
> does not support rasters yet; Oracle Spatial does though.  I'm still not
> sure if storing rasters in a database is a good idea but ArcSDE sure makes
> it easy, and with good performance when used in conjunction with other ESRI
> products.

John,

What is it about ArcSDE and raster that makes it easy? I have no
experience with it, but there must be something about the process that
seems easier to you than other options do. Is it just the clarity of
the process? (you do a, b, c, and d, and then voila, it's all a
seamless mosaic?) Or is there something else?

P
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[John Callahan]

I've been an ESRI user (AV 3.x, ArcGIS 8/9, ArcIMS, ArcGIS Server, 
ArcSDE) for 12+ years and have recently started exploring FOSS 
software.  And I haven't disagreed with any of the responses so far.  
You will definitely need multiple programs to do what a single ESRI 
program can do.  IMO, this is a good thing.  One of the main reasons for 
my migration is I'm tired of running large, complicated, expensive 
software and all the extra baggage that comes with it to use only 10% of 
what the software can do. (see ArcGIS Server.)


You can do all the analysis and more of ArcGIS Desktop and extensions 
using GRASS, QGIS, SAGA, GeoTools, GDAL/OGR, PROJ4, or R Statistics 
along with a programming language like Python, Java or others.  (IMO, 
this is a better solution than ESRI.)You can do just about anything 
you want on the web server end with MapServer, GeoServer, FeatureServer 
(and maybe TileCache or GeoNetwork for metadata) with any of a dozen or 
more clients (OpenLayers, ka-Map, MapGuide etc...).  And you can do a 
lot of database work with Postgres/PostGIS, a much simpler, less costly 
solution than ArcSDE+RDBMS.  And I wouldn't count out the role of free, 
non-open source packages like Google products and Oracle Express (11g 
should have Spatial included.)


From my experience (limited in the FOSS world), I have found three 
basic hurdles:


1) Cartography.  Whether on the screen, PDF outputs, or print 
publications, ArcMap is easy and looks great. (Although R Statistics 
produces better looking charts and graphs than ArcGIS.)


2) Versioned editing.  This is important for groups with multiple 
concurrent editors or that has a particular hierarchical workflow with 
their GIS data.


3) Storage and serving of very large (50+ GB) raster datasets.  PostGIS 
does not support rasters yet; Oracle Spatial does though.  I'm still not 
sure if storing rasters in a database is a good idea but ArcSDE sure 
makes it easy, and with good performance when used in conjunction with 
other ESRI products.



In the end, we have decided to move all of our web work to open source.  
For spatial analysis, we'll also move to open source.  For Desktop, 
we'll have a mix of ArcGIS Desktop as well as QGIS, GRASS and maybe SAGA 
and/or OSSIM.  For storage, we'll be maybe 505/50 with 
PostGIS+file-based rasters and ArcSDE/Oracle.Hope this helps.  This 
sure is a fun and exciting time!


- John


Jennifer Horsman wrote:
The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source 
career" got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling 
around in my head. This is pointed at those people who have experience 
with ESRI products as well as OS GIS products.


I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my 
own contract business and will not be able to afford the license for 
ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed, 
but it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably 
changed since then too!)


Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? 
I know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question 
would be where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in 
comparison to the ESRI products?


Thanks,
Jennifer



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Cameron Shorter]

Joanne Cook provided good insights into replacing ArcGIS software with 
Open Source on the geowanking list recently. 
http://lists.burri.to/pipermail/geowanking/2008-April/005117.html (and 
copied below)


I'd love to see all this expertise collated into an ESRI/Open Source 
comparison similar to the review of the Open Source clients at: 
http://www.spatialserver.net/osgis/
Such a comparison could the be used to drive Migration to Open Source 
plans and package development (as sponsors decide it is cheaper to add 
their key features to Open Source than to go for a full ESRI license).


Has anyone started such comparisons yet that we could build upon?
Would this be best developed as a wiki book?

Joanne Cook wrote:

Hi Cameron,

We (Oxford Archaeology) are going through exactly that process at the moment, although we are replacing arcgis 9.2 rather than arcview. We are doing this primarily because changes in the licensing terms meant that we were no longer eligible for the educational discount, but it's part of a longer term move towards open source. We have spent some time investigating alternatives, and have a few contenders, and I'm sure we would be happy to advise, or provide a case study on this. 


Basically we are looking at gvsig and qgis as the main options- gvsig because 
it can use cad data, and qgis because we like the grass integration and it's 
slightly more user-friendly for english speakers (the translated version of 
gvsig still has some spanish bits in it). With slight changes to our 
work-flows, we are finding that these two packages will do almost everything we 
need a gis to do, with the exception of producing high-quality illustrations. 
To achieve this we are currently looking at export to svg or postscript for 
final editing in inkscape, but that's a work in progress.
  



George R. C. Silva wrote:
Im a real novice in the OS world, and i´m enjoying. I´m liking what i 
see!


ESRI has good software, but the world of OS is just great and i love 
the flexibility i have.


One thing GIS OS software could have are better editing tools. I do 
miss them alot, and the one is ArcGIS are unbeatable (i dont know any 
O.S. software that have 'autocomplete polygon', tons of snapping 
options, etc - btw, if you do, let me know).


FOSS is great, but it lacks (IMHO) better editing options.

2cents

George Silva

David William Bitner escreveu:
I would agree with Paul.  The biggest hole in the FOSS stack is in 
easy, high quality printed map production.  This is the one task 
where the Arc tools beat anything I have seen in FOSS GIS hands down.


David

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Paul Ramsey 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:


I'd buck up for a copy of ArcView (much cheaper than ArcGIS), and 
use

GRASS / PostGIS / etc tools for things like analysis. You can use
ArcView to generate the paper and do some quick low-end analytics 
and

the other tools for more involved stuff.

My general synopsis: for server-side, for scriptability, for
automation, for web-based, open source wins for most use cases, 
given
a technically savvy user; for ad hoc, for cartographic 
production, for

a user who is used to a point-n-click experience end to end,
proprietary still wins.

This equation hasn't changed much in the 10 years I've been running
it. The goal posts have moved, open source is better at adhoc now 
than
before, but still not at the level of ESRI, and ESRI is better at 
the

server stuff now, but still not at the level of open source.

P.

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Jennifer Horsman
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open
source career"
> got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling
around in my
> head. This is pointed at those people who have experience with
ESRI products
> as well as OS GIS products.
>
>  I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to
start my own
> contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
> ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS
installed, but
> it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has
probably changed
> since then too!)
>
>  Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as
ArcGIS? I
> know this is a very general question, so perhaps another
question would be
> where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in
comparison to the
> ESRI products?
>
>  Thanks,
>  Jennifer
>
>
>
>  ___
>  Discuss mailing list
>  Discuss@lists.osgeo.org 
>  http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Randy George]

It might be good to add a geoserver layer into the stack between PostGIS and
client. Then you can publish into Google Earth, Google Maps, Virtual
Earth/LiveMaps, or your own homegrown html, SVG, WPF, Silverlight whatever
... as well as OpenLayers. Paper can be the clients choice if you add a
pdf/fop option.

randy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Josh Livni
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 4:41 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with
ESRI)?


If you want nice cartographic output, ArcMap on a totally different 
level than ArcView.  I think I paid about 1k a few years ago for my copy 
(no extensions) through some reseller, which I really don't think is 
outlandish at all for what you get.

That said, I rarely do paper-based cartography anymore, and one thing to 
consider when starting out a new venture is those moving goalposts.  For 
example, there's tons of demand (as far as I can tell) for putting stuff 
on the web.  One spot I see lots of work for is somewhere just above 
what the average google map hobbyists can offer (eg the 
postgis/mapserver/openlayers wrapped in a decent web framework or CMS 
kind of a thing).  Or do you prefer to focus on modeling?   
cartography?  I think if you have an idea of the kinds of projects you 
want to work on, that might help you decide which of the many open 
source gis software stacks might be the best to start studying.

Without knowing more, my .02 is you just can't go wrong spending a 
little time learning PostGIS, and if you do want to put stuff on the 
web, you may as well start by playing around with OpenLayers.

Cheers,

 -Josh


Paul Ramsey wrote:
> I'd buck up for a copy of ArcView (much cheaper than ArcGIS), and use
> GRASS / PostGIS / etc tools for things like analysis. You can use
> ArcView to generate the paper and do some quick low-end analytics and
> the other tools for more involved stuff.
>
> My general synopsis: for server-side, for scriptability, for
> automation, for web-based, open source wins for most use cases, given
> a technically savvy user; for ad hoc, for cartographic production, for
> a user who is used to a point-n-click experience end to end,
> proprietary still wins.
>
> This equation hasn't changed much in the 10 years I've been running
> it. The goal posts have moved, open source is better at adhoc now than
> before, but still not at the level of ESRI, and ESRI is better at the
> server stuff now, but still not at the level of open source.
>
> P.
>
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Jennifer Horsman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>   
>> The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source
career"
>> got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling around in
my
>> head. This is pointed at those people who have experience with ESRI
products
>> as well as OS GIS products.
>>
>>  I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my
own
>> contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
>> ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed,
but
>> it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably
changed
>> since then too!)
>>
>>  Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I
>> know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would
be
>> where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to the
>> ESRI products?
>>
>>  Thanks,
>>  Jennifer
>>
>>
>>
>>  ___
>>  Discuss mailing list
>>  Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
>>  http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>>
>> 
> ___
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> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>   

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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Josh Livni]

If you want nice cartographic output, ArcMap on a totally different 
level than ArcView.  I think I paid about 1k a few years ago for my copy 
(no extensions) through some reseller, which I really don't think is 
outlandish at all for what you get.


That said, I rarely do paper-based cartography anymore, and one thing to 
consider when starting out a new venture is those moving goalposts.  For 
example, there's tons of demand (as far as I can tell) for putting stuff 
on the web.  One spot I see lots of work for is somewhere just above 
what the average google map hobbyists can offer (eg the 
postgis/mapserver/openlayers wrapped in a decent web framework or CMS 
kind of a thing).  Or do you prefer to focus on modeling?   
cartography?  I think if you have an idea of the kinds of projects you 
want to work on, that might help you decide which of the many open 
source gis software stacks might be the best to start studying.


Without knowing more, my .02 is you just can't go wrong spending a 
little time learning PostGIS, and if you do want to put stuff on the 
web, you may as well start by playing around with OpenLayers.


Cheers,

-Josh


Paul Ramsey wrote:

I'd buck up for a copy of ArcView (much cheaper than ArcGIS), and use
GRASS / PostGIS / etc tools for things like analysis. You can use
ArcView to generate the paper and do some quick low-end analytics and
the other tools for more involved stuff.

My general synopsis: for server-side, for scriptability, for
automation, for web-based, open source wins for most use cases, given
a technically savvy user; for ad hoc, for cartographic production, for
a user who is used to a point-n-click experience end to end,
proprietary still wins.

This equation hasn't changed much in the 10 years I've been running
it. The goal posts have moved, open source is better at adhoc now than
before, but still not at the level of ESRI, and ESRI is better at the
server stuff now, but still not at the level of open source.

P.

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Jennifer Horsman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source career"
got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling around in my
head. This is pointed at those people who have experience with ESRI products
as well as OS GIS products.

 I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my own
contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed, but
it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably changed
since then too!)

 Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I
know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would be
where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to the
ESRI products?

 Thanks,
 Jennifer



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 Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
 http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[George R. C. Silva]

Im a real novice in the OS world, and i´m enjoying. I´m liking what i see!

ESRI has good software, but the world of OS is just great and i love the 
flexibility i have.


One thing GIS OS software could have are better editing tools. I do miss 
them alot, and the one is ArcGIS are unbeatable (i dont know any O.S. 
software that have 'autocomplete polygon', tons of snapping options, etc 
- btw, if you do, let me know).


FOSS is great, but it lacks (IMHO) better editing options.

2cents

George Silva

David William Bitner escreveu:
I would agree with Paul.  The biggest hole in the FOSS stack is in 
easy, high quality printed map production.  This is the one task where 
the Arc tools beat anything I have seen in FOSS GIS hands down.


David

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Paul Ramsey 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:


I'd buck up for a copy of ArcView (much cheaper than ArcGIS), and use
GRASS / PostGIS / etc tools for things like analysis. You can use
ArcView to generate the paper and do some quick low-end analytics and
the other tools for more involved stuff.

My general synopsis: for server-side, for scriptability, for
automation, for web-based, open source wins for most use cases, given
a technically savvy user; for ad hoc, for cartographic production, for
a user who is used to a point-n-click experience end to end,
proprietary still wins.

This equation hasn't changed much in the 10 years I've been running
it. The goal posts have moved, open source is better at adhoc now than
before, but still not at the level of ESRI, and ESRI is better at the
server stuff now, but still not at the level of open source.

P.

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Jennifer Horsman
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open
source career"
> got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling
around in my
> head. This is pointed at those people who have experience with
ESRI products
> as well as OS GIS products.
>
>  I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to
start my own
> contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
> ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS
installed, but
> it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has
probably changed
> since then too!)
>
>  Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as
ArcGIS? I
> know this is a very general question, so perhaps another
question would be
> where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in
comparison to the
> ESRI products?
>
>  Thanks,
>  Jennifer
>
>
>
>  ___
>  Discuss mailing list
>  Discuss@lists.osgeo.org 
>  http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
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--

David William Bitner


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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Randy George]

Sorry for the previous blank post.

Open source is a great boon to small business innovation, as others
have pointed out. Anyone dependent on small business consulting/contracting
will have plenty of uses for open source tools. 

I have also used Jump in place of ArcView for shp viewing (as well
as FWTools, Tatuk, AutoCAD, uDig, Geoserver ...). Shp seems to have become
largely a lowest common denominator interchange format with support
available all over. 

Of course ArcGIS/ArcInfo is a much different beast. It would take a good bit
of sophistication to beat it in breadth of spectrum with just a single tool.
There seems to be some kind of open source tool for most of the Arc
bandwidth so you can probably get by without an expensive license with a
little extra work.

randy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Landon Blake
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 2:36 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with
ESRI)?

A convert! Welcome Jennifer.

I can't speak for GRASS, but I know that OpenJUMP
(http://jump-pilot.sourceforge.net/OpenJUMP.html) could be compared to
the old 3.X Arcview. It has limited printing abilities at this point in
time, but I don't think there is a better cross-platform tool for basic
ESRI Shapefile manipulation. (I'm a volunteer on the project and
therefore biased in my opinion on this matter.)

I think you will find you can do 95% of what you could with ESRI
software, you'll just have to do it with an assortment of tools instead
of a single tool.

Landon

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jennifer Horsman
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:41 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with
ESRI)?

The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source 
career" got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling 
around in my head. This is pointed at those people who have experience 
with ESRI products as well as OS GIS products.

I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my 
own contract business and will not be able to afford the license for 
ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed, 
but it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably 
changed since then too!)

Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I 
know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would 
be where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to 
the ESRI products?

Thanks,
Jennifer



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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[David William Bitner]

I would agree with Paul.  The biggest hole in the FOSS stack is in easy,
high quality printed map production.  This is the one task where the Arc
tools beat anything I have seen in FOSS GIS hands down.

David

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Paul Ramsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> I'd buck up for a copy of ArcView (much cheaper than ArcGIS), and use
> GRASS / PostGIS / etc tools for things like analysis. You can use
> ArcView to generate the paper and do some quick low-end analytics and
> the other tools for more involved stuff.
>
> My general synopsis: for server-side, for scriptability, for
> automation, for web-based, open source wins for most use cases, given
> a technically savvy user; for ad hoc, for cartographic production, for
> a user who is used to a point-n-click experience end to end,
> proprietary still wins.
>
> This equation hasn't changed much in the 10 years I've been running
> it. The goal posts have moved, open source is better at adhoc now than
> before, but still not at the level of ESRI, and ESRI is better at the
> server stuff now, but still not at the level of open source.
>
> P.
>
> On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Jennifer Horsman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source
> career"
> > got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling around in
> my
> > head. This is pointed at those people who have experience with ESRI
> products
> > as well as OS GIS products.
> >
> >  I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my
> own
> > contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
> > ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed,
> but
> > it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably
> changed
> > since then too!)
> >
> >  Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I
> > know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would
> be
> > where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to the
> > ESRI products?
> >
> >  Thanks,
> >  Jennifer
> >
> >
> >
> >  ___
> >  Discuss mailing list
> >  Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> >  http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> >
> ___
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> http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>



-- 

David William Bitner
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Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Paul Ramsey]

I'd buck up for a copy of ArcView (much cheaper than ArcGIS), and use
GRASS / PostGIS / etc tools for things like analysis. You can use
ArcView to generate the paper and do some quick low-end analytics and
the other tools for more involved stuff.

My general synopsis: for server-side, for scriptability, for
automation, for web-based, open source wins for most use cases, given
a technically savvy user; for ad hoc, for cartographic production, for
a user who is used to a point-n-click experience end to end,
proprietary still wins.

This equation hasn't changed much in the 10 years I've been running
it. The goal posts have moved, open source is better at adhoc now than
before, but still not at the level of ESRI, and ESRI is better at the
server stuff now, but still not at the level of open source.

P.

On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 12:41 PM, Jennifer Horsman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source career"
> got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling around in my
> head. This is pointed at those people who have experience with ESRI products
> as well as OS GIS products.
>
>  I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my own
> contract business and will not be able to afford the license for
> ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed, but
> it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably changed
> since then too!)
>
>  Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I
> know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would be
> where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to the
> ESRI products?
>
>  Thanks,
>  Jennifer
>
>
>
>  ___
>  Discuss mailing list
>  Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
>  http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>
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RE: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with ESRI)?

[Landon Blake]

A convert! Welcome Jennifer.

I can't speak for GRASS, but I know that OpenJUMP
(http://jump-pilot.sourceforge.net/OpenJUMP.html) could be compared to
the old 3.X Arcview. It has limited printing abilities at this point in
time, but I don't think there is a better cross-platform tool for basic
ESRI Shapefile manipulation. (I'm a volunteer on the project and
therefore biased in my opinion on this matter.)

I think you will find you can do 95% of what you could with ESRI
software, you'll just have to do it with an assortment of tools instead
of a single tool.

Landon

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jennifer Horsman
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 12:41 PM
To: OSGeo Discussions
Subject: [OSGeo-Discuss] Can I do the same GIS tasks with OS (as with
ESRI)?

The thread that was started today with the subject "Your open source 
career" got me thinking about asking a question that has been rolling 
around in my head. This is pointed at those people who have experience 
with ESRI products as well as OS GIS products.

I have been a long-time user of ESRI products, but I want to start my 
own contract business and will not be able to afford the license for 
ArcGIS/ArcInfo. So I recently set up a Linux box with GRASS installed, 
but it has been over 10 years since I have used GRASS (it has probably 
changed since then too!)

Does GRASS have the same analysis and display capabilities as ArcGIS? I 
know this is a very general question, so perhaps another question would 
be where does GRASS fall short and where does it excel in comparison to 
the ESRI products?

Thanks,
Jennifer



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