Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community

[Jachym Cepicky]

Hi,

I'm all for promoting "as much free and open source software for
geospatial" as possible on our web page. Our target is community outreach,
to destroy borders, this IMHO is part of our vision and mission [1]
OSGeo VisionEmpower everyone with open source geospatialOSGeo Mission
Statement

Foster global adoption of open geospatial technology by being an inclusive
software foundation devoted to an open philosophy and participatory
community driven development.

[1] http://www.osgeo.org/content/foundation/about.html

I do not care much about LocationTech's business and I did not see any act
- open or hidden - which would violate our vision or mission and that would
be in contradiction to what we do. Quite opposite, I see LocationTech
promoting the open (and OSGeo) idea quite a lot. Still, their business is
different from ours.

We are open community - and that includes (among others) LocationTech - do
not take this value from us.

The same way, some OSGeo members are looking at LocationTech, could OGC
look at OSGeo - with our "community" standards initiative, we are covering
some of their agenda. Yet I did not see that happen, since the final target
is different (even global mission is similar)

This is just my opinion, my $0.02 to the repeating discussion. You surely
can disagree

Jachym

P.S. Thank you all "LocationTech insiders", who are working for OSGeo,
great job!

so 19. 8. 2017 v 2:53 odesílatel Maria Antonia Brovelli <
maria.brove...@polimi.it> napsal:

> Dear Helmut
> I think that your question are relevant. Thank you so much!
> Jeffrey did an excellent work (thanks also  to you) in trying to make the
> new website ready in beta version for FOSS4G 2018.
> It is a sort of draft website and every comment is welcome.
> In the hurry of the last period and the overlappinh holidays of many
> people we have not had time to check it.
> But the website is our window and we have to decide what we want to show
> to the world. Therefore it deserves time for checking and also finding
> agreements among us.
> I agree with the proposal of Maxi to freeze it and give the possibility to
> the community to express themselves on this important topic.
> I will take my time in next weeks to check it and I ask everybody of the
> community to do the same and share their thoughts.
> Thanks again for your precious help!
> Best
> Maria
>
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my Samsung device
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Helmut Kudrnovsky <hel...@web.de>
> Date: 18/08/2017 17:00 (GMT-05:00)
> To: Marc Vloemans <marcvloema...@gmail.com>, ragha...@media.osaka-cu.ac.jp,
> hmit...@ncsu.edu
> Cc: OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>, Sandro Santilli <
> s...@kbt.io>
> Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community
>
> Dear Venka, Dear Helena, Dear Marc, Dear OSGeo Community,
>
> I'm some kind of surprised about the reactions and long threads about my
> question yesterday.
>
> Just back from a long walk along a nice alpine river where I had time to
> contemplate about it. Therefore it will be a personal and some kind of
> philosophical note.
>
> In my personal, cultural and scientific background I was educated that
> asking questions isn't anything bad.
>
> * Asking questions regarding things I'm interested in, to learn more about
> it ...
> * Asking questions regarding things I'm interested in, I'm involved, and
> where I have some kind of responsibility, to take care that it evolves in a
> sustainable way ...
>
> citing [1]:
>
> "The third category is Charter Member. Individuals in this category have
> the same rights as the above Member category, but with two important
> differences. Firstly, individuals in this category are not self-selected,
> but rather must be voted into this category by the other Charter Members.
> Secondly, individuals in this category have the right to vote in elections
> for other Charter Members, and for Board Members.
>
> These two factors are intended to maintain the integrity of the
> Foundation election processes -- and by extension the integrity of the
> Foundation itself. We use the term "Charter" Member to explicitly indicate
> that these members are responsible for upholding the "charter" of the
> Foundation."
>
> As I'm honoured to be elected an OSGeo charter member, this is a high
> motivation for me to volunteer e.g. this year as OSGeo GSoC admin, to have
> fun within the GRASS community and to promote OSGeo and free and open
> source GIS whenever I have a chance to do so... and from time to time it
> encourages me to ask questions about OSGeo's evolution. So here we are now
> ...
>
> Community and communication  both have the same 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community

[Maria Antonia Brovelli]

Dear Helmut
I think that your question are relevant. Thank you so much!
Jeffrey did an excellent work (thanks also  to you) in trying to make the new 
website ready in beta version for FOSS4G 2018.
It is a sort of draft website and every comment is welcome.
In the hurry of the last period and the overlappinh holidays of many people we 
have not had time to check it.
But the website is our window and we have to decide what we want to show to the 
world. Therefore it deserves time for checking and also finding agreements 
among us.
I agree with the proposal of Maxi to freeze it and give the possibility to the 
community to express themselves on this important topic.
I will take my time in next weeks to check it and I ask everybody of the 
community to do the same and share their thoughts.
Thanks again for your precious help!
Best
Maria





Sent from my Samsung device


 Original message 
From: Helmut Kudrnovsky <hel...@web.de>
Date: 18/08/2017 17:00 (GMT-05:00)
To: Marc Vloemans <marcvloema...@gmail.com>, ragha...@media.osaka-cu.ac.jp, 
hmit...@ncsu.edu
Cc: OSGeo Discussions <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>, Sandro Santilli <s...@kbt.io>
Subject: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community

Dear Venka, Dear Helena, Dear Marc, Dear OSGeo Community,

I'm some kind of surprised about the reactions and long threads about my 
question yesterday.

Just back from a long walk along a nice alpine river where I had time to 
contemplate about it. Therefore it will be a personal and some kind of 
philosophical note.

In my personal, cultural and scientific background I was educated that asking 
questions isn't anything bad.

* Asking questions regarding things I'm interested in, to learn more about it 
...
* Asking questions regarding things I'm interested in, I'm involved, and where 
I have some kind of responsibility, to take care that it evolves in a 
sustainable way ...

citing [1]:

"The third category is Charter Member. Individuals in this category have the 
same rights as the above Member category, but with two important differences. 
Firstly, individuals in this category are not self-selected, but rather must be 
voted into this category by the other Charter Members. Secondly, individuals in 
this category have the right to vote in elections for other Charter Members, 
and for Board Members.

These two factors are intended to maintain the integrity of the Foundation 
election processes -- and by extension the integrity of the Foundation itself. 
We use the term "Charter" Member to explicitly indicate that these members are 
responsible for upholding the "charter" of the Foundation."

As I'm honoured to be elected an OSGeo charter member, this is a high 
motivation for me to volunteer e.g. this year as OSGeo GSoC admin, to have fun 
within the GRASS community and to promote OSGeo and free and open source GIS 
whenever I have a chance to do so... and from time to time it encourages me to 
ask questions about OSGeo's evolution. So here we are now ...

Community and communication  both have the same latin word stem: communis.

I like OSGeo's do-ocracy :-) ... but also I think it's now time to rephrase the 
open source mantra to "communicate often, communicate early" :-) ... that OSGeo 
is able to evolve in a sustainable way!

Kind regards
Helmut

[1] http://www.osgeo.org/Membership

Gesendet: Freitag, 18. August 2017 um 21:15 Uhr
Von: "Marc Vloemans" <marcvloema...@gmail.com>
An: "Sandro Santilli" <s...@kbt.io>
Cc: "Helmut Kudrnovsky" <hel...@web.de>, "OSGeo Discussions" 
<discuss@lists.osgeo.org>
Betreff: Re: Non-precise framing can hurt the community
@Helmut et all,

Thanks for another opportunity to give the community more insights in what 
LocationTech (the Eclipse Industry Working Group for spatially aware software) 
entails and how it relates to OSGeo!

We help co-develop and co-promote OSGeo projects in general (including 
GPL-projects!) through
- sponsoring codesprints (e.g. Here in Boston tomorrow) and
- co-organising events (e.g. codesprints and Foss4g North Amerika)

Kind regards,
Marc Vloemans


> Op 18 aug. 2017 om 12:53 heeft Marc Vloemans <marcvloema...@gmail.com> het 
> volgende geschreven:
>
> Dear Sandro,
>
> We (Eclipse Foundation -LocationTech) are 'not against it' ! I repeat; not 
> againstdid I mention 'not'?
>
> GPL is approved by OSI, just like the EPL. We are on the same team. The word 
> 'against' suggests we are at odds with each other over this. Which we are 
> not, never have been and never will be.
>
> Our members (businesses, academia, NGO's) work with/on projects that 
> incorporate various licenses. Individual choices depend on 'the right tools 
> for the job'. Developers work on projects and in communities that encompass a 
> wide spectrum of licenses

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community

[Marc Vloemans]

Dear all,

I am not, I repeat not, in any mood to be trolled! Certainly not by people who 
I have not seen on the discuss list during a process that has taken more than 8 
months preparing. It show an utter disrespect that may be common in certain 
circles, but not acceptable in ours.

I have in various mails to the list given honest answers to a host of 
questions, on items that have been already clear to most for a long time. And 
stating that it is 'LocationTech's turn' to respond? Is absolutely 
ludicrous, given the information you already have received from me and others 
plus is publicly available.
LocationTech is interested in a respectful conversation without the innuendos. 
A single person is severely hindering a MoU-process between two siblings of the 
same parents.

Could others please step up to the plate? People who have been with OSGeo long 
enough.

Kind regards,
Marc Vloemans


Op 18 aug. 2017 om 17:57 heeft Helmut Kudrnovsky <hel...@web.de> het volgende 
geschreven:

>> Please keep asking questions.
>  
>  I think I've asked questions:
> 
>> Will locationtech also promote OSGeo projects?
> 
> ?
> 
> it's locationtech's turn to answer. collaboration has something to do with 
> reciprocity!
> 
>> Who will decide which project or other org will be promoted?
> 
> ?
> 
>> Why not promote projects from any other org?
> 
> ?
> 
>> What is the added value for OSGeo to promote locationtech projects?
> 
> ?
> 
> I've not seen any answer on this questions yet.
> 
> Kind regards
> Helmut
> 
> Gesendet: Freitag, 18. August 2017 um 23:42 Uhr
> Von: "Jeffrey Johnson" <ortel...@gmail.com>
> An: "Helmut Kudrnovsky" <hel...@web.de>, "Marc Vloemans" 
> <marcvloema...@gmail.com>, hmit...@ncsu.edu, ragha...@media.osaka-cu.ac.jp
> Cc: "OSGeo Discussions" <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>, "Sandro Santilli" 
> <s...@kbt.io>
> Betreff: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community
> 
> Please keep asking questions. It's healthy and how we (try to) arrive at 
> consensus.  
> 
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 17:13 Helmut Kudrnovsky 
> <hel...@web.de[mailto:hel...@web.de]> wrote:Dear Venka, Dear Helena, Dear 
> Marc, Dear OSGeo Community,
> 
> I'm some kind of surprised about the reactions and long threads about my 
> question yesterday.
> 
> Just back from a long walk along a nice alpine river where I had time to 
> contemplate about it. Therefore it will be a personal and some kind of 
> philosophical note.
> 
> In my personal, cultural and scientific background I was educated that asking 
> questions isn't anything bad.
> 
> * Asking questions regarding things I'm interested in, to learn more about it 
> ...
> * Asking questions regarding things I'm interested in, I'm involved, and 
> where I have some kind of responsibility, to take care that it evolves in a 
> sustainable way ...
> 
> citing [1]:
> 
> "The third category is Charter Member. Individuals in this category have the 
> same rights as the above Member category, but with two important differences. 
> Firstly, individuals in this category are not self-selected, but rather must 
> be voted into this category by the other Charter Members. Secondly, 
> individuals in this category have the right to vote in elections for other 
> Charter Members, and for Board Members.
> 
> These two factors are intended to maintain the integrity of the 
> Foundation election processes -- and by extension the integrity of the 
> Foundation itself. We use the term "Charter" Member to explicitly indicate 
> that these members are responsible for upholding the "charter" of the 
> Foundation."
> 
> As I'm honoured to be elected an OSGeo charter member, this is a high 
> motivation for me to volunteer e.g. this year as OSGeo GSoC admin, to have 
> fun within the GRASS community and to promote OSGeo and free and open source 
> GIS whenever I have a chance to do so... and from time to time it encourages 
> me to ask questions about OSGeo's evolution. So here we are now ...
> 
> Community and communication  both have the same latin word stem: communis.
> 
> I like OSGeo's do-ocracy :-) ... but also I think it's now time to rephrase 
> the open source mantra to "communicate often, communicate early" :-) ... that 
> OSGeo is able to evolve in a sustainable way!
> 
> Kind regards
> Helmut 
> 
> [1] http://www.osgeo.org/Membership[http://www.osgeo.org/Membership]
> 
> Gesendet: Freitag, 18. August 2017 um 21:15 Uhr
> Von: "Marc Vloemans" <marcvloema...@gmail.com[mailto:marcvloema...@gmail.com]>
> An: "Sandro Santilli" &

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community

[Jody Garnett]

Perhaps, right now the LocationTech website has almost the opposite idea of
our new website (focused on internal and explaining process not outreach).

Note: the beta OSGeo site does not list all projects we know about directly
- osgeo projects and osgeo community pages are direct in the menu.

I wonder if it would be cool to make the choose a project thing a joint
thing; we would have to change up the branding and make it its own domain
like geoforall but it may be more successful that way...

Kind of depends if we want osgeo to take leadership in promotion and
outreach, or step back ... I know my preference.

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 7:10 PM Helmut Kudrnovsky <hel...@web.de> wrote:

>
> Hi Jody,
>
> >As someone who is very much an advocate of our foss4g community
>
> also here on my side, I promote FOSS4G wherever I have a chance to :-) ...
> from the scientific level up to governmental level ...
>
> >> Will locationtech also promote OSGeo projects?
> >Of course, have been doing so for some years.
>
> also on their website?
>
> >>collaboration has something to do with reciprocity!
>
> :-)
>
> Kind regards
> Helmut
>
>
> Gesendet: Samstag, 19. August 2017 um 00:54 Uhr
> Von: "Jody Garnett" <jody.garn...@gmail.com>
> An: "Helmut Kudrnovsky" <hel...@web.de>, "Jeffrey Johnson" <
> ortel...@gmail.com>
> Cc: "OSGeo Discussions" <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>, "Sandro Santilli" <
> s...@kbt.io>
> Betreff: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community
>
> Sorry I could not focus on this important conversation - foss4g is a
> distraction from email!
>
> As someone who is very much an advocate of our foss4g community I find it
> rewarding to assisting projects adopt open source principles and
> transparency. As such I contribute time as incubation chair at osgeo and
> technology-pmc chair with LocationTech.
>
> My observation is this - both organizations have the mission to help move
> the dial from proprietary to open source.
>
> I enjoy working with both organizations, and as I have told many people at
> foss4g this week, it is nice to have different tools for different jobs.
>
> I had a presentation at foss4g Korea on this if anyone wants to hunt it
> down.
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 5:57 PM Helmut Kudrnovsky <hel...@web.de[mailto:
> hel...@web.de]> wrote:>Please keep asking questions.
>
>  I think I've asked questions:
>
> > Will locationtech also promote OSGeo projects?
>
> Of course, have been doing so for some years.
>
> We have been doing LocationTech tour events for years promoting osgeo
> events. The majority of workshops and presentations at the events I have
> gone to have been osgeo and other projects - simply as LocationTech has not
> many projects to promote.
>
> By the same token osgeo promotes LocationTech projects like JTS.
>
> it's locationtech's turn to answer. collaboration has something to do with
> reciprocity!
>
> > Who will decide which project or other org will be promoted?
>
> Um, OSGeo has a mandate to empower everyone with open source geospatial.
> We have taken that to mean OSI approved licenses; giving a wide range of
> projects to promote, see osgeo live for an example of an existing outreach
> initiative.
>  >Why not promote projects from any other org?
>
> We do! See above.
> > What is the added value for OSGeo to promote locationtech projects?
>
> To better meet our mandate we promote all projects. A real pretty example
> is navigating the choose a project wizard to processing and analysis and
> then cloud processing and finding several LocationTech projects (and
> perhaps the ZOO-Project if I understood there announcement in the AGM).
>
> This is a real exciting area of RnD being explored nub apache foundation
> and LocationTech projects, and we have not had any of these projects ask to
> join OSGeo at this time.
>
> I've not seen any answer on this questions yet.
>
> See above, we have all been a bit busy.
>
> Indeed I have not seen the beta website since Tuesday and look forward to
> seeing all the content that is being discussed.
>
> You will see above that I am being focused on representing all projects
> because that is the osgeo mandate.  Beyond that LocationTech is a partner
> of OSGeo - and we have a closer relationship than many of the MOUs on the
> wiki indicate - OSGeo is s member of LocationTech pretty much since it
> started,  Michael Smith contributes time as our the OSGeo representative,
> and then are many joint code sprints and events such as foss4gna.
>
> Thanks for the discussion please excuse typos as this email is via ph

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community

[Helmut Kudrnovsky]

Hi Jody,

>As someone who is very much an advocate of our foss4g community

also here on my side, I promote FOSS4G wherever I have a chance to :-) ... from 
the scientific level up to governmental level ... 

>> Will locationtech also promote OSGeo projects? 
>Of course, have been doing so for some years.

also on their website? 

>>collaboration has something to do with reciprocity!

:-)

Kind regards
Helmut


Gesendet: Samstag, 19. August 2017 um 00:54 Uhr
Von: "Jody Garnett" <jody.garn...@gmail.com>
An: "Helmut Kudrnovsky" <hel...@web.de>, "Jeffrey Johnson" <ortel...@gmail.com>
Cc: "OSGeo Discussions" <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>, "Sandro Santilli" 
<s...@kbt.io>
Betreff: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community

Sorry I could not focus on this important conversation - foss4g is a 
distraction from email!
 
As someone who is very much an advocate of our foss4g community I find it 
rewarding to assisting projects adopt open source principles and transparency. 
As such I contribute time as incubation chair at osgeo and technology-pmc chair 
with LocationTech. 
 
My observation is this - both organizations have the mission to help move the 
dial from proprietary to open source.
 
I enjoy working with both organizations, and as I have told many people at 
foss4g this week, it is nice to have different tools for different jobs.
 
I had a presentation at foss4g Korea on this if anyone wants to hunt it down.
  

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 5:57 PM Helmut Kudrnovsky 
<hel...@web.de[mailto:hel...@web.de]> wrote:>Please keep asking questions.
 
 I think I've asked questions:

> Will locationtech also promote OSGeo projects?
 
Of course, have been doing so for some years.
   
We have been doing LocationTech tour events for years promoting osgeo events. 
The majority of workshops and presentations at the events I have gone to have 
been osgeo and other projects - simply as LocationTech has not many projects to 
promote. 
 
By the same token osgeo promotes LocationTech projects like JTS.
 
it's locationtech's turn to answer. collaboration has something to do with 
reciprocity!

> Who will decide which project or other org will be promoted?
 
Um, OSGeo has a mandate to empower everyone with open source geospatial. We 
have taken that to mean OSI approved licenses; giving a wide range of projects 
to promote, see osgeo live for an example of an existing outreach initiative. 
 >Why not promote projects from any other org?
 
We do! See above.
> What is the added value for OSGeo to promote locationtech projects?
 
To better meet our mandate we promote all projects. A real pretty example is 
navigating the choose a project wizard to processing and analysis and then 
cloud processing and finding several LocationTech projects (and perhaps the 
ZOO-Project if I understood there announcement in the AGM).
 
This is a real exciting area of RnD being explored nub apache foundation and 
LocationTech projects, and we have not had any of these projects ask to join 
OSGeo at this time. 

I've not seen any answer on this questions yet.
 
See above, we have all been a bit busy.
 
Indeed I have not seen the beta website since Tuesday and look forward to 
seeing all the content that is being discussed.
 
You will see above that I am being focused on representing all projects because 
that is the osgeo mandate.  Beyond that LocationTech is a partner of OSGeo - 
and we have a closer relationship than many of the MOUs on the wiki indicate - 
OSGeo is s member of LocationTech pretty much since it started,  Michael Smith 
contributes time as our the OSGeo representative, and then are many joint code 
sprints and events such as foss4gna. 
 
Thanks for the discussion please excuse typos as this email is via phone. 
 

Kind regards
Helmut

Gesendet: Freitag, 18. August 2017 um 23:42 Uhr
Von: "Jeffrey Johnson" <ortel...@gmail.com[mailto:ortel...@gmail.com]>
An: "Helmut Kudrnovsky" <hel...@web.de[mailto:hel...@web.de]>, "Marc Vloemans" 
<marcvloema...@gmail.com[mailto:marcvloema...@gmail.com]>, 
hmit...@ncsu.edu[mailto:hmit...@ncsu.edu], 
ragha...@media.osaka-cu.ac.jp[mailto:ragha...@media.osaka-cu.ac.jp]
Cc: "OSGeo Discussions" 
<discuss@lists.osgeo.org[mailto:discuss@lists.osgeo.org]>, "Sandro Santilli" 
<s...@kbt.io[mailto:s...@kbt.io]>
Betreff: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community

Please keep asking questions. It's healthy and how we (try to) arrive at 
consensus.  

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 17:13 Helmut Kudrnovsky 
<hel...@web.de[mailto:hel...@web.de][mailto:hel...@web.de[mailto:hel...@web.de]]>
 wrote:Dear Venka, Dear Helena, Dear Marc, Dear OSGeo Community,

I'm some kind of surprised about the reactions and long threads about my 
question yesterday.

Just back from a long walk along a nice

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community

[Jody Garnett]

Sorry I could not focus on this important conversation - foss4g is a
distraction from email!

As someone who is very much an advocate of our foss4g community I find it
rewarding to assisting projects adopt open source principles and
transparency. As such I contribute time as incubation chair at osgeo and
technology-pmc chair with LocationTech.

My observation is this - both organizations have the mission to help move
the dial from proprietary to open source.

I enjoy working with both organizations, and as I have told many people at
foss4g this week, it is nice to have different tools for different jobs.

I had a presentation at foss4g Korea on this if anyone wants to hunt it
down.


On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 5:57 PM Helmut Kudrnovsky <hel...@web.de> wrote:

> >Please keep asking questions.
>
>  I think I've asked questions:
>
> > Will locationtech also promote OSGeo projects?


Of course, have been doing so for some years.

We have been doing LocationTech tour events for years promoting osgeo
events. The majority of workshops and presentations at the events I have
gone to have been osgeo and other projects - simply as LocationTech has not
many projects to promote.

By the same token osgeo promotes LocationTech projects like JTS.


> it's locationtech's turn to answer. collaboration has something to do with
> reciprocity!
>
> > Who will decide which project or other org will be promoted?


Um, OSGeo has a mandate to empower everyone with open source geospatial. We
have taken that to mean OSI approved licenses; giving a wide range of
projects to promote, see osgeo live for an example of an existing outreach
initiative.

>Why not promote projects from any other org?


We do! See above.

>
> > What is the added value for OSGeo to promote locationtech projects?


To better meet our mandate we promote all projects. A real pretty example
is navigating the choose a project wizard to processing and analysis and
then cloud processing and finding several LocationTech projects (and
perhaps the ZOO-Project if I understood there announcement in the AGM).

This is a real exciting area of RnD being explored nub apache foundation
and LocationTech projects, and we have not had any of these projects ask to
join OSGeo at this time.

>
>
> I've not seen any answer on this questions yet.


See above, we have all been a bit busy.

Indeed I have not seen the beta website since Tuesday and look forward to
seeing all the content that is being discussed.

You will see above that I am being focused on representing all projects
because that is the osgeo mandate.  Beyond that LocationTech is a partner
of OSGeo - and we have a closer relationship than many of the MOUs on the
wiki indicate - OSGeo is s member of LocationTech pretty much since it
started,  Michael Smith contributes time as our the OSGeo representative,
and then are many joint code sprints and events such as foss4gna.

Thanks for the discussion please excuse typos as this email is via phone.


>
> Kind regards
> Helmut
>
> Gesendet: Freitag, 18. August 2017 um 23:42 Uhr
> Von: "Jeffrey Johnson" <ortel...@gmail.com>
> An: "Helmut Kudrnovsky" <hel...@web.de>, "Marc Vloemans" <
> marcvloema...@gmail.com>, hmit...@ncsu.edu, ragha...@media.osaka-cu.ac.jp
> Cc: "OSGeo Discussions" <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>, "Sandro Santilli" <
> s...@kbt.io>
> Betreff: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community
>
> Please keep asking questions. It's healthy and how we (try to) arrive at
> consensus.
>
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 17:13 Helmut Kudrnovsky <hel...@web.de[mailto:
> hel...@web.de]> wrote:Dear Venka, Dear Helena, Dear Marc, Dear OSGeo
> Community,
>
> I'm some kind of surprised about the reactions and long threads about my
> question yesterday.
>
> Just back from a long walk along a nice alpine river where I had time to
> contemplate about it. Therefore it will be a personal and some kind of
> philosophical note.
>
> In my personal, cultural and scientific background I was educated that
> asking questions isn't anything bad.
>
> * Asking questions regarding things I'm interested in, to learn more about
> it ...
> * Asking questions regarding things I'm interested in, I'm involved, and
> where I have some kind of responsibility, to take care that it evolves in a
> sustainable way ...
>
> citing [1]:
>
> "The third category is Charter Member. Individuals in this category have
> the same rights as the above Member category, but with two important
> differences. Firstly, individuals in this category are not self-selected,
> but rather must be voted into this category by the other Charter Members.
> Secondly, individuals in this category have the right to vote in elections
> for other

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community

[Helmut Kudrnovsky]

>Please keep asking questions.
 
 I think I've asked questions:

> Will locationtech also promote OSGeo projects?

?

it's locationtech's turn to answer. collaboration has something to do with 
reciprocity!

> Who will decide which project or other org will be promoted?

?

>Why not promote projects from any other org?

?

> What is the added value for OSGeo to promote locationtech projects?

?

I've not seen any answer on this questions yet.

Kind regards
Helmut

Gesendet: Freitag, 18. August 2017 um 23:42 Uhr
Von: "Jeffrey Johnson" <ortel...@gmail.com>
An: "Helmut Kudrnovsky" <hel...@web.de>, "Marc Vloemans" 
<marcvloema...@gmail.com>, hmit...@ncsu.edu, ragha...@media.osaka-cu.ac.jp
Cc: "OSGeo Discussions" <discuss@lists.osgeo.org>, "Sandro Santilli" 
<s...@kbt.io>
Betreff: Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community

Please keep asking questions. It's healthy and how we (try to) arrive at 
consensus.  

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 17:13 Helmut Kudrnovsky 
<hel...@web.de[mailto:hel...@web.de]> wrote:Dear Venka, Dear Helena, Dear Marc, 
Dear OSGeo Community,

I'm some kind of surprised about the reactions and long threads about my 
question yesterday.

Just back from a long walk along a nice alpine river where I had time to 
contemplate about it. Therefore it will be a personal and some kind of 
philosophical note.

In my personal, cultural and scientific background I was educated that asking 
questions isn't anything bad.

* Asking questions regarding things I'm interested in, to learn more about it 
...
* Asking questions regarding things I'm interested in, I'm involved, and where 
I have some kind of responsibility, to take care that it evolves in a 
sustainable way ...

citing [1]:

"The third category is Charter Member. Individuals in this category have the 
same rights as the above Member category, but with two important differences. 
Firstly, individuals in this category are not self-selected, but rather must be 
voted into this category by the other Charter Members. Secondly, individuals in 
this category have the right to vote in elections for other Charter Members, 
and for Board Members.

    These two factors are intended to maintain the integrity of the Foundation 
election processes -- and by extension the integrity of the Foundation itself. 
We use the term "Charter" Member to explicitly indicate that these members are 
responsible for upholding the "charter" of the Foundation."

As I'm honoured to be elected an OSGeo charter member, this is a high 
motivation for me to volunteer e.g. this year as OSGeo GSoC admin, to have fun 
within the GRASS community and to promote OSGeo and free and open source GIS 
whenever I have a chance to do so... and from time to time it encourages me to 
ask questions about OSGeo's evolution. So here we are now ...

Community and communication  both have the same latin word stem: communis.

I like OSGeo's do-ocracy :-) ... but also I think it's now time to rephrase the 
open source mantra to "communicate often, communicate early" :-) ... that OSGeo 
is able to evolve in a sustainable way!

Kind regards
Helmut 

[1] http://www.osgeo.org/Membership[http://www.osgeo.org/Membership]

Gesendet: Freitag, 18. August 2017 um 21:15 Uhr
Von: "Marc Vloemans" <marcvloema...@gmail.com[mailto:marcvloema...@gmail.com]>
An: "Sandro Santilli" <s...@kbt.io[mailto:s...@kbt.io]>
Cc: "Helmut Kudrnovsky" <hel...@web.de[mailto:hel...@web.de]>, "OSGeo 
Discussions" <discuss@lists.osgeo.org[mailto:discuss@lists.osgeo.org]>
Betreff: Re: Non-precise framing can hurt the community
@Helmut et all,

Thanks for another opportunity to give the community more insights in what 
LocationTech (the Eclipse Industry Working Group for spatially aware software) 
entails and how it relates to OSGeo!

We help co-develop and co-promote OSGeo projects in general (including 
GPL-projects!) through
- sponsoring codesprints (e.g. Here in Boston tomorrow) and
- co-organising events (e.g. codesprints and Foss4g North Amerika)

Kind regards,
Marc Vloemans


> Op 18 aug. 2017 om 12:53 heeft Marc Vloemans 
> <marcvloema...@gmail.com[mailto:marcvloema...@gmail.com]> het volgende 
> geschreven:
>
> Dear Sandro,
>
> We (Eclipse Foundation -LocationTech) are 'not against it' ! I repeat; not 
> againstdid I mention 'not'?
>
> GPL is approved by OSI, just like the EPL. We are on the same team. The word 
> 'against' suggests we are at odds with each other over this. Which we are 
> not, never have been and never will be.
>
> Our members (businesses, academia, NGO's) work with/on projects that 
> incorporate various licenses. Individual choices depend on 'the right tools 
> for the job'. Developers work on projects and in communities

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community

[Jeffrey Johnson]

Please keep asking questions. It's healthy and how we (try to) arrive at
consensus.

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 17:13 Helmut Kudrnovsky  wrote:

> Dear Venka, Dear Helena, Dear Marc, Dear OSGeo Community,
>
> I'm some kind of surprised about the reactions and long threads about my
> question yesterday.
>
> Just back from a long walk along a nice alpine river where I had time to
> contemplate about it. Therefore it will be a personal and some kind of
> philosophical note.
>
> In my personal, cultural and scientific background I was educated that
> asking questions isn't anything bad.
>
> * Asking questions regarding things I'm interested in, to learn more about
> it ...
> * Asking questions regarding things I'm interested in, I'm involved, and
> where I have some kind of responsibility, to take care that it evolves in a
> sustainable way ...
>
> citing [1]:
>
> "The third category is Charter Member. Individuals in this category have
> the same rights as the above Member category, but with two important
> differences. Firstly, individuals in this category are not self-selected,
> but rather must be voted into this category by the other Charter Members.
> Secondly, individuals in this category have the right to vote in elections
> for other Charter Members, and for Board Members.
>
> These two factors are intended to maintain the integrity of the
> Foundation election processes -- and by extension the integrity of the
> Foundation itself. We use the term "Charter" Member to explicitly indicate
> that these members are responsible for upholding the "charter" of the
> Foundation."
>
> As I'm honoured to be elected an OSGeo charter member, this is a high
> motivation for me to volunteer e.g. this year as OSGeo GSoC admin, to have
> fun within the GRASS community and to promote OSGeo and free and open
> source GIS whenever I have a chance to do so... and from time to time it
> encourages me to ask questions about OSGeo's evolution. So here we are now
> ...
>
> Community and communication  both have the same latin word stem:
> communis.
>
> I like OSGeo's do-ocracy :-) ... but also I think it's now time to
> rephrase the open source mantra to "communicate often, communicate early"
> :-) ... that OSGeo is able to evolve in a sustainable way!
>
> Kind regards
> Helmut
>
> [1] http://www.osgeo.org/Membership
>
> Gesendet: Freitag, 18. August 2017 um 21:15 Uhr
> Von: "Marc Vloemans" 
> An: "Sandro Santilli" 
> Cc: "Helmut Kudrnovsky" , "OSGeo Discussions" <
> discuss@lists.osgeo.org>
> Betreff: Re: Non-precise framing can hurt the community
> @Helmut et all,
>
> Thanks for another opportunity to give the community more insights in what
> LocationTech (the Eclipse Industry Working Group for spatially aware
> software) entails and how it relates to OSGeo!
>
> We help co-develop and co-promote OSGeo projects in general (including
> GPL-projects!) through
> - sponsoring codesprints (e.g. Here in Boston tomorrow) and
> - co-organising events (e.g. codesprints and Foss4g North Amerika)
>
> Kind regards,
> Marc Vloemans
>
>
> > Op 18 aug. 2017 om 12:53 heeft Marc Vloemans 
> het volgende geschreven:
> >
> > Dear Sandro,
> >
> > We (Eclipse Foundation -LocationTech) are 'not against it' ! I repeat;
> not againstdid I mention 'not'?
> >
> > GPL is approved by OSI, just like the EPL. We are on the same team. The
> word 'against' suggests we are at odds with each other over this. Which we
> are not, never have been and never will be.
> >
> > Our members (businesses, academia, NGO's) work with/on projects that
> incorporate various licenses. Individual choices depend on 'the right tools
> for the job'. Developers work on projects and in communities that encompass
> a wide spectrum of licenses.
> > End-users (the ones that fund so many of open spatial projects)
> determine and decide which tools will suit their purposes. And they love
> our community's versatility to meet their demands. Thus furthering the
> overall success of open spatial IT in the world.
> > The present full spectrum of projects provides a compelling,
> comprehensive storyline as is demonstrated by an increasing number of
> implementations. Worldwide, across industry verticals, profits,
> non-profits, etc etc.
> >
> > Hope this clarifies and let's together move forward!
> >
> > Kind regards,
> > Marc Vloemans
> >
> >
> >>> Op 18 aug. 2017 om 11:25 heeft Sandro Santilli  het
> volgende geschreven:
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 09:19:52PM +0200, Helmut Kudrnovsky wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Will locationtech also promote OSGeo projects?
> >>
> >> This is an interesting question, especially as LocationTech is
> >> against GPL-licensed projects (like GRASS, QGIS, PostGIS)
> >>
> >> --strk;
> >> ___
> >> Discuss mailing list
> >> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> >> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> 

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community

[Helmut Kudrnovsky]

Dear Venka, Dear Helena, Dear Marc, Dear OSGeo Community,

I'm some kind of surprised about the reactions and long threads about my 
question yesterday.

Just back from a long walk along a nice alpine river where I had time to 
contemplate about it. Therefore it will be a personal and some kind of 
philosophical note.

In my personal, cultural and scientific background I was educated that asking 
questions isn't anything bad.

* Asking questions regarding things I'm interested in, to learn more about it 
...
* Asking questions regarding things I'm interested in, I'm involved, and where 
I have some kind of responsibility, to take care that it evolves in a 
sustainable way ...

citing [1]:

"The third category is Charter Member. Individuals in this category have the 
same rights as the above Member category, but with two important differences. 
Firstly, individuals in this category are not self-selected, but rather must be 
voted into this category by the other Charter Members. Secondly, individuals in 
this category have the right to vote in elections for other Charter Members, 
and for Board Members.

These two factors are intended to maintain the integrity of the Foundation 
election processes -- and by extension the integrity of the Foundation itself. 
We use the term "Charter" Member to explicitly indicate that these members are 
responsible for upholding the "charter" of the Foundation."

As I'm honoured to be elected an OSGeo charter member, this is a high 
motivation for me to volunteer e.g. this year as OSGeo GSoC admin, to have fun 
within the GRASS community and to promote OSGeo and free and open source GIS 
whenever I have a chance to do so... and from time to time it encourages me to 
ask questions about OSGeo's evolution. So here we are now ...

Community and communication  both have the same latin word stem: communis.

I like OSGeo's do-ocracy :-) ... but also I think it's now time to rephrase the 
open source mantra to "communicate often, communicate early" :-) ... that OSGeo 
is able to evolve in a sustainable way!

Kind regards
Helmut 

[1] http://www.osgeo.org/Membership

Gesendet: Freitag, 18. August 2017 um 21:15 Uhr
Von: "Marc Vloemans" 
An: "Sandro Santilli" 
Cc: "Helmut Kudrnovsky" , "OSGeo Discussions" 

Betreff: Re: Non-precise framing can hurt the community
@Helmut et all,

Thanks for another opportunity to give the community more insights in what 
LocationTech (the Eclipse Industry Working Group for spatially aware software) 
entails and how it relates to OSGeo!

We help co-develop and co-promote OSGeo projects in general (including 
GPL-projects!) through
- sponsoring codesprints (e.g. Here in Boston tomorrow) and
- co-organising events (e.g. codesprints and Foss4g North Amerika)

Kind regards,
Marc Vloemans


> Op 18 aug. 2017 om 12:53 heeft Marc Vloemans  het 
> volgende geschreven:
>
> Dear Sandro,
>
> We (Eclipse Foundation -LocationTech) are 'not against it' ! I repeat; not 
> againstdid I mention 'not'?
>
> GPL is approved by OSI, just like the EPL. We are on the same team. The word 
> 'against' suggests we are at odds with each other over this. Which we are 
> not, never have been and never will be.
>
> Our members (businesses, academia, NGO's) work with/on projects that 
> incorporate various licenses. Individual choices depend on 'the right tools 
> for the job'. Developers work on projects and in communities that encompass a 
> wide spectrum of licenses.
> End-users (the ones that fund so many of open spatial projects) determine and 
> decide which tools will suit their purposes. And they love our community's 
> versatility to meet their demands. Thus furthering the overall success of 
> open spatial IT in the world.
> The present full spectrum of projects provides a compelling, comprehensive 
> storyline as is demonstrated by an increasing number of implementations. 
> Worldwide, across industry verticals, profits, non-profits, etc etc.
>
> Hope this clarifies and let's together move forward!
>
> Kind regards,
> Marc Vloemans
>
>
>>> Op 18 aug. 2017 om 11:25 heeft Sandro Santilli  het volgende 
>>> geschreven:
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 09:19:52PM +0200, Helmut Kudrnovsky wrote:
>>>
>>> Will locationtech also promote OSGeo projects?
>>
>> This is an interesting question, especially as LocationTech is
>> against GPL-licensed projects (like GRASS, QGIS, PostGIS)
>>
>> --strk;
>> ___
>> Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
___
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community

[Marc Vloemans]

@Helmut et all,

Thanks for another opportunity to give the community more insights in what 
LocationTech (the Eclipse Industry Working Group for spatially aware software) 
entails and how it relates to OSGeo!

We help co-develop and co-promote OSGeo projects in general (including 
GPL-projects!) through
- sponsoring codesprints (e.g. Here in Boston tomorrow) and
- co-organising events (e.g. codesprints and Foss4g North Amerika)

Kind regards,
Marc Vloemans


> Op 18 aug. 2017 om 12:53 heeft Marc Vloemans  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> Dear Sandro,
> 
> We (Eclipse Foundation -LocationTech) are 'not against it' ! I repeat; not 
> againstdid I mention 'not'?
> 
> GPL is approved by OSI, just like the EPL. We are on the same team. The word 
> 'against' suggests we are at odds with each other over this. Which we are 
> not, never have been and never will be.
> 
> Our members (businesses, academia, NGO's) work with/on projects that 
> incorporate various licenses. Individual choices depend on 'the right tools 
> for the job'. Developers work on projects and in communities that encompass a 
> wide spectrum of licenses.
> End-users (the ones that fund so many of open spatial projects) determine and 
> decide which tools will suit their purposes. And they love our community's 
> versatility to meet their demands. Thus furthering the overall success of 
> open spatial IT in the world.
> The present full spectrum of projects provides a compelling, comprehensive 
> storyline as is demonstrated by an increasing number of implementations. 
> Worldwide, across industry verticals, profits, non-profits, etc etc. 
> 
> Hope this clarifies and let's together move forward!
> 
> Kind regards,
> Marc Vloemans
> 
> 
>>> Op 18 aug. 2017 om 11:25 heeft Sandro Santilli  het volgende 
>>> geschreven:
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 09:19:52PM +0200, Helmut Kudrnovsky wrote:
>>> 
>>> Will locationtech also promote OSGeo projects?
>> 
>> This is an interesting question, especially as LocationTech is
>> against GPL-licensed projects (like GRASS, QGIS, PostGIS)
>> 
>> --strk;
>> ___
>> Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
___
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community

[Marc Vloemans]

Not accepting them due to our particular membership requirements does not mean 
we are 'against' GPL.

Now, I turn my attention back to the plenary close of FOSS4G in Boston, the end 
of a fantastic, fruitful and beyond all; inclusive gathering of the tribes.
Wish you were here!

Kind regards,
Marc Vloemans


> Op 18 aug. 2017 om 14:31 heeft Sandro Santilli  het volgende 
> geschreven:
> 
>> On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 12:53:47PM -0400, Marc Vloemans wrote:
>> 
>> GPL is approved by OSI, just like the EPL. We are on the same team. The word 
>> 'against' suggests we are at odds with each other over this. Which we are 
>> not, never have been and never will be.
> 
> Do you accept GPL covered software projects in your foundation ?
> 
> --strk;
___
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community

[andrea antonello]

Dear Mark,

> We (Eclipse Foundation -LocationTech) are 'not against it' ! I repeat; not 
> againstdid I mention 'not'?
>
> GPL is approved by OSI, just like the EPL. We are on the same team. The word 
> 'against' suggests we are at odds with each other over this. Which we are 
> not, never have been and never will be.
>
> Our members (businesses, academia, NGO's) work with/on projects that 
> incorporate various licenses. Individual choices depend on 'the right tools 
> for the job'. Developers work on projects and in communities that encompass a 
> wide spectrum of licenses.
> End-users (the ones that fund so many of open spatial projects) determine and 
> decide which tools will suit their purposes. And they love our community's 
> versatility to meet their demands. Thus furthering the overall success of 
> open spatial IT in the world.
> The present full spectrum of projects provides a compelling, comprehensive 
> storyline as is demonstrated by an increasing number of implementations. 
> Worldwide, across industry verticals, profits, non-profits, etc etc.
>
> Hope this clarifies and let's together move forward!

I understand what you mean and I am sure no one is against any other,
the GPL problem is a big one and it goes on for years now.
Since I am not sure where we are now with that GPL-EPL thing, I take
the chance to ask if anyone knows about it.
Years ago I took the time and effort to try to understand and write
both the Eclipse Foundation and the FSF, and the result of all that,
which was heavily impacting my contribution in open source, is
summarized here:
http://jgrasstechtips.blogspot.it/2015/06/epl-gpl-discussion-from-2011.html

Maybe many will not care or don't see the problem, but the integration
of GPL and EPL projects is not possible (without an exception clause
that needs to gather any connected Author, which is often a too high
burden), and I see part of the point Sandro is making.

And I would love to see this integration happen,
Cheers,
Andrea




>
> Kind regards,
> Marc Vloemans
>
>
>> Op 18 aug. 2017 om 11:25 heeft Sandro Santilli  het volgende 
>> geschreven:
>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 09:19:52PM +0200, Helmut Kudrnovsky wrote:
>>>
>>> Will locationtech also promote OSGeo projects?
>>
>> This is an interesting question, especially as LocationTech is
>> against GPL-licensed projects (like GRASS, QGIS, PostGIS)
>>
>> --strk;
>> ___
>> Discuss mailing list
>> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
>> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> ___
> Discuss mailing list
> Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
___
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss

Re: [OSGeo-Discuss] Non-precise framing can hurt the community

[Sandro Santilli]

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 12:53:47PM -0400, Marc Vloemans wrote:

> GPL is approved by OSI, just like the EPL. We are on the same team. The word 
> 'against' suggests we are at odds with each other over this. Which we are 
> not, never have been and never will be.

Do you accept GPL covered software projects in your foundation ?

--strk;
___
Discuss mailing list
Discuss@lists.osgeo.org
https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss