Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Julf wrote: > As it should be in any decently designed DAC - if your DAC is sensitive > to source, there is something wrong. My point exactly. Bits is bits, so if it isn't awesome, something is wrong. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
drmatt wrote: > the sound quality is just incredible - even from a lowly SBT playing > flacs over WiFi from a home built server, and running off its bog > standard wall wart PSU. :) As it should be in any decently designed DAC - if your DAC is sensitive to source, there is something wrong. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Mnyb wrote: > That's weird ? Assuming you have a normally very quit DAC ? Much gain in > the system ? It's not particularly quiet no, and the gain on the DAC through the pre-amp is very high which makes this worse. Result is noise level is relatively obvious if it steps up a few dB (such as stepping from 24 bit noise floor to 16 bit noise floor would cause!). One of the foibles of the Supernait. Using just the power amp section (such as when it's in AV mode) the power amp is silent (and superb). When I don't have this problem, the noise on the DAC inputs is not intrusive either and the sound quality is just incredible - even from a lowly SBT playing flacs over WiFi from a home built server, and running off its bog standard wall wart PSU. :) drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
if you think it's the SBT, i personally would have no qualms about a factory reset on the spot. i have done that with several devices over the years. i also like to go for a clean reinstall of LMS (it's why i keep a virginal copy of the original virtual machine) whenever some weird issue appears. i don't spend time fixing, i just go back to something that worked... :-) ...pablo Server: Virtual Machine (on VMware Workstation 12) running Ubuntu 16.04 + LMS 7.9 System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem Element Fire Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> NAD D7050 -> Totem DreamCatcher + Velodyne Minivee Sub Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e/Shure 1540 pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
drmatt wrote: > Fwiw (warning: not measured, for those that care) I have the impression > that the background noise level is noticeably higher when the issue is > happening... > > Gonna swap the SBT.. That's weird ? Assuming you have a normally very quit DAC ? Much gain in the system ? Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Fwiw (warning: not measured, for those that care) I have the impression that the background noise level is noticeably higher when the issue is happening... Gonna swap the SBT.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Julf wrote: > So worth trying to isolate the issue. Next time your system goes into > the weird mode, try turning the DAC on and off to see if it fixes the > problem. Pretty sure I have power cycled the amp during this phase before and it didn't snap out of it but yes this is obviously one to try. I have certainly switched between digital inputs and switched to/from analogue inputs (the entire DAC board shuts down when this happens) so I really don't think it's the DAC... drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Mnyb wrote: > But the point is when there is no difference a human could hear ? then > taste does not come into to it at all . We are there with most digital > sources of reasonable quality . > > Most "issues" these days are of such smal influence that human bias are > magnitudes bigger . > > [...]that makes some music sound terrible due to the fact that the > recording actually sounds like that :/ but it helps greatly when the > material has the right qualities . > > Taste comes into speakers as they are currently always very coloured > especially combined with room acoustics ,thtas the last frontier, here > we have tp pick our poison . I dont disagree with you. I'm not going to sit here and tell anyone I think I can hear stuff that isn't there.. I would however say that it's nearly impossible to actually measure the sound that's hitting my ears though. Measuring the electronics is easy of course.. So perhaps something was off with my setup when I did use the digital volume control? Dunno. I noticed it though, and there's plenty of logic that says I want bit-perfect hitting my DAC, so I tried to help the OP by adding to check this out.. The amp/speaker/air interface is totally where the game is. Speakers are pretty imperfect overall and yeah most people choose a speaker they like.. Though I find that after enough exposure to the specific response of a specific speaker I will probably accommodate it.. And I'm totally with you on the awful quality of a lot of recorded music.. Am spoiled by the ones that are good but some of the rest can be pretty painful. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
drmatt wrote: > How do you suggest I go about measuring my perception that the sound > wasn't as good? I suggest you check out the two ITU recommendations I mentioned. > Hope the OP appreciates your efforts to prevent opinions getting in the > way of his pursuit of the truth. Nothing wrong with personal opinions when stated as such... "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
drmatt wrote: > Also possible. Annoying if so cos trust me I do not have a spare.. So worth trying to isolate the issue. Next time your system goes into the weird mode, try turning the DAC on and off to see if it fixes the problem. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Julf wrote: > You keep making claims without any factual support. We don't know that > we can't measure to tell the difference between the type of sound you > prefer and the type I prefer until we try. It might be possible that our > preferences differ based on easily measurable parameters. How do you suggest I go about measuring my perception that the sound wasn't as good? For the sake of a throwaway comment on an internet forum I'm going to wheel out some pro recording gear and analysis equipment? Nope. Maybe it could be measured but it ain't going to be, so I said what I thought and you tried to educate me. Well, good. Thanks. Hope the OP appreciates your efforts to prevent opinions getting in the way of his pursuit of the truth. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Julf wrote: > Rather unlikely. I would suspect your DAC getting into some funky mode, > and resynchronizing when you unplug and replug the cable. Also possible. Annoying if so cos trust me I do not have a spare.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
drmatt wrote: > You still can't measure to tell the difference between the type of sound > I prefer and the type you prefer. You keep making claims without any factual support. We don't know that we can't measure to tell the difference between the type of sound you prefer and the type I prefer until we try. It might be possible that our preferences differ based on easily measurable parameters. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
drmatt wrote: > My suspicion is I have a dodgy spdif output chip that is dropping output > stream resolution at times, but on a warm relink to the DAC goes back to > full res. Rather unlikely. I would suspect your DAC getting into some funky mode, and resynchronizing when you unplug and replug the cable. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
drmatt wrote: > Everything you said was obvious and not "news" to anyone. You still > can't measure to tell the difference between the type of sound I prefer > and the type you prefer. But the point is when there is no difference a human could hear ? then taste does not come into to it at all . We are there with most digital sources of reasonable quality . Most if not all audiophile quibles is about inaudible things imagined to be audible due to lack of controlled listening test . I dbt IS a subjective test using ones hearing but with as much bias as possible removed . Most "issues" these days are of such smal influence that human bias are magnitudes bigger . There are of course tastes like tube gear with readily available artefacts that are clearly audible and preferred by some (instead of hearing the source material as intended by the artist ) . I have quite wide musical taste i can not choose equipment by "taste" it has to be as neutral as possible , that makes some music sound terrible due to the fact that the recording actually sounds like that :/ but it helps greatly when the material has the right qualities . Taste comes into speakers as they are currently always very coloured especially combined with room acoustics ,thtas the last frontier, here we have tp pick our poison . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Julf wrote: > Indeed. Factual accuracy is a true sign of pedantry. Everything you said was obvious and not "news" to anyone. You still can't measure to tell the difference between the type of sound I prefer and the type you prefer. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
due to sheer convenience i dial my Dac+preamp at a medium-high listening level, and fine-tune the volume with the LMS remote on my iPad. i can not ever hear a difference in sound quality, even with 192/24 recordings (not that i can tell or care to tell a difference between 24/192 and 16/44.1 of very well recorded material, either). ...pablo Server: Virtual Machine (on VMware Workstation 12) running Ubuntu 16.04 + LMS 7.9 System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem Element Fire Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> NAD D7050 -> Totem DreamCatcher + Velodyne Minivee Sub Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e/Shure 1540 pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
drmatt wrote: > Probably best to just move it to the pedantry section. Indeed. Factual accuracy is a true sign of pedantry. Sent from my ZQ864e36 using Firefox. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
drmatt wrote: > Meanwhile, still would like to find out how to find a live value of the > in-use bitrate on the spdif outputs.. > > Sent from my XT1562 using Tapatalk If it does not transcode it is what the file is + 8 zeroes on the spdiff out if it's 16 bit material or something else if you use the volume ( but it is bitperfect at 100% volume ), if it transcodes you can set up the log to debug and observe the chosen transcoding parameters . To my knowledge there is no way for LMS to presents live data in this regard . But the info on the player at least tells if it's transcoded or not . But is it not good enough to know that if its not transcoding and you use 100% volume you get bit prefect output ? In other words what the file is ? Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Meanwhile, still would like to find out how to find a live value of the in-use bitrate on the spdif outputs.. Sent from my XT1562 using Tapatalk drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Mnyb wrote: > It should be noted that there are no real 24 bit audio anywhere ( except > some electronica ) both ADC and DAC is practically limited to about 21 > bit in practice a squeezebox touch analog out would be aproxmately 17 > bits . Indeed, I'm told my DAC manages about 18 bit of clear resolution but I think the pre-amp has quite a high noise floor. (The DAC is in the same box..) drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Julf wrote: > Obviously I can. A lot of what makes up good sound quality as an > objective criteria can be quantified and measured, and subjective > preferences can also be measured (in the meaning of "assignment of a > number to a characteristic of an object or event, which can be compared > with other objects or events") by properly controlled listening tests > (see ITU-R BS.1534 and BS.1116). > > How do you think audio gear is designed? Solely by ear? > > Should we move this down to the "audiophile" section? Probably best to just move it to the pedantry section. Sent from my XT1562 using Tapatalk drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
I'm even trying to use small amounts of digital attenuatiin to my beneffit ? Result inconclusive , but one noted side effect is that in practice you dont hear the squeezebox volume control imo at least not small amounts of it . We had discussion about intersample overshots some over sampling filters are likelybto do when encountering to hotly mastered tracks so dropping -3 to -6dB could actually be better . But it serms masked by the in general horrible sq of such regordings :) Well i have completely abandoned the notion that playback must be bitperfect at all cost , with current 24 bit systems you are not likly to hear any difference . But it can aleays be better like the fully dithered volme i have in my meridian system . It should be noted that there are no real 24 bit audio anywhere ( except some electronica ) both ADC and DAC is practically limited to about 21 bit in practice a squeezebox touch analog out would be aproxmately 17 bits . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
drmatt wrote: > My ears. Haha. YMMV. Yes - the key part of that is "YMMV". And "haha". :) > Obviously you can't measure sound quality can you?? Obviously I can. A lot of what makes up good sound quality as an objective criteria can be quantified and measured, and subjective preferences can also be measured (in the meaning of "assignment of a number to a characteristic of an object or event, which can be compared with other objects or events") by properly controlled listening tests (see ITU-R BS.1534 and BS.1116). How do you think audio gear is designed? Solely by ear? Should we move this down to the "audiophile" section? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
My ears. Haha. YMMV. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
drmatt wrote: > I am however certain that using the digital volume or replaygain on the > SB results in poorer, not just quieter, sound... What's your certainty based on? "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Julf wrote: > Disabling RG will not hurt quality, but you lose the RG functionality, > so there should be a somewhat better reason that "it won't hurt". As to > volume control, digital volume control can often be much better than > analog, so setting fixed 100% vol is actually harmful to sound quality > in many cases. I said "for critical listening". I am religious about using replaygain at all other times .. Some types of digital volume controls can be better than some types of analogue ones I have no doubt (this is an obvious statement). In this case, I find the SB digital volume degrades sound, so I spoke as I found.. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
It's a 24b/96k DAC. Have to admit I assumed the SB was sending 16 bits because the source is a 16 bit flac.. Maybe that's not true. I am however certain that using the digital volume or replaygain on the SB results in poorer, not just quieter, sound... drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Well if the dac is a true 16bit design i would not use digital volume, the spdiff standard is a bit weird it is basically 16 bit + 8 extra bits legacy design just discards the extra bits ( backwars compatible ) so you would runcate at the dac interface if using digital Volume you would never get 16 bits ? On the other hand i would not use such a dac Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
drmatt wrote: > My view was that disabling RG and setting fixed 100% vol will never hurt > the quality and it /can/ degrade it. So I figured it was a fair punt! Disabling RG will not hurt quality, but you lose the RG functionality, so there should be a somewhat better reason that "it won't hurt". As to volume control, digital volume control can often be much better than analog, so setting fixed 100% vol is actually harmful to sound quality in many cases. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Julf wrote: > Fair enough, but not something I would advice other people to -always- > do. My view really is that disabling RG and setting fixed 100% vol will never hurt the quality and it /can/ degrade it. So I figured it was a fair punt! drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
drmatt wrote: > Well I have a 16 bit DAC with an analogue pre-amp and volume control > after it. The DAC is 24 bit capable to be fair, but I choose to use the > pre amp section for volume control instead of the SB output level as I > find it better... Fair enough, but not something I would advice other people to -always- do. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Mnyb wrote: > Squeezeboxes always put out 24bit data 16 bit material is paddel with > 8bits and then the volume control is made in 24bit it's not dithered but > the steps are cleverly chosen so and truncation happens at rely low > volumes where the volume is low :) so you practically don't hear that . > > So both volume and replay gain is added within 24 bits . Cool, so you should get 48db of attenuation without degradation. Good! Assuming the analogue section post-dac doesn't just drop into its noise floor. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Well I have a 16 bit DAC with an analogue pre-amp and volume control after it. The DAC is 24 bit capable though. Sent from my XT1562 using Tapatalk drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
drmatt wrote: > Well, in my case I have an external DAC so I want the original bits off > the CD sent to it at 44k/16b. The volume and replaygain are applied > within this precision and are audible. So you have a 16-bit DAC that does the volume processing at 16 bits? Must be a really old one. If it is done in software, it is done at a precision greater than 16 bits and then rounded/truncated back to 16 bits, so you don't "lose" any precision. > If your assumption of it being processed at 24 bit is true or you're > using the analogue outputs anyway then fair enough the difference will > be marginal. Not just marginal but more importantly inaudible. > But the question was about audiophile comparisons, so fair comment, no? Only if "audiophile" means "anything is possible" (which it often does). :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Squeezeboxes always put out 24bit data 16 bit material is paddel with 8bits and then the volume control is made in 24bit it's not dithered but the steps are cleverly chosen so and truncation happens at rely low volumes where the volume is low :) so you practically don't hear that . So both volume and replay gain is added within 24 bits . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Well, in my case I have an external DAC so I want the original bits off the CD sent to it at 44k/16b. The volume and replaygain are applied within this precision and are audible. drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
drmatt wrote: > Always disable replaygain when doing critical listening as it's done in > the digital domain and adds aliasing at the LSB. And have the output > volume at 100% too and use an external pre amp. I am always careful of any advice that includes the word "always". :) I guess this really belongs down in the "audiophile" section, but most digital volume adjustments are done at more than 16 bit precision, so covered by the self-dither of the inherent noise in the actual music. In any case, the resulting "lack of precision" manifests itself as (very low-level, way beyond the source material) noise. "Aliasing" is usually used for something else, and has nothing to do with volume adjustment. "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Always disable replaygain when doing critical listening as it's done in the digital domain and adds aliasing at the LSB. Sent from my XT1562 using Tapatalk drmatt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=59498 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
dhallag wrote: > and I haven't changed anything under file types. yes I do get sound and > yes it sounds good... so to answer the relevant question of trusting my > ears, part of this is my personal experiment to see how different file > types sound -- I have the album thriller in 192/24, 96/24, 44.1/16 and > 320 MP3... so I just want to be sure that my LMS is doing what it > should be doing... Use coax then you can try all 4 resolutions if it transcodes you see SoX and Flac processer running when you playing and also if you set some ( i don't remener exactly ) parameters in the log settings to "debug" then you can see the settings LMS actually used . And actually if you get that info transcoded to 705 on the player then it is transcoded you should not see that otherwise . Is this Flac files ? If they are wav AIFF or ALAC the transcoding can happen just to make them Flac , but the actual resolution is like the original . For wav LMS does that to save bandwith if fr example the players is on wig and Flac has better error correction ( I don't now if LMS or the player use that fact , yes a Flac file can be checked years after ripping ). For ALAC , the player supports ALAC but not hirez ALAC , same for AIFF . You can make a file type settings change to stream wav natively if you have a lot of wav files and your network is up for it . But I recommend to convert those to Flac so that file tags have better support , it looks nicer on most players ( but sounds the same ) Great a test :) suggestions . Use some software to make your own dowsampled version from the 192/24 version , don't trust the different versions to be mastered the same they usually are not , then you hear what the different versions of the album sounds like ( which afaik is the difference in general ). Make sure they are level matched , not only same volume but no replay gain tags or other volume manupilation and different versions can be differently loud another reason to not test that way . Try a blind test , tag them exactly the same and shuffle around Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
and I haven't changed anything under file types. yes I do get sound and yes it sounds good... so to answer the relevant question of trusting my ears, part of this is my personal experiment to see how different file types sound -- I have the album thriller in 192/24, 96/24, 44.1/16 and 320 MP3... so I just want to be sure that my LMS is doing what it should be doing... dhallag's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30845 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Mnyb wrote: > The 705kBps is bogus , its a bug LMS just presents a placeholder value , > so you can discard that . > > Does the conversion actually work ? do you get sound ? > > Do you have a complete log for the conversion process , somewhere in > there you see the SoX parameters used . But the squeezebox environment > is such that the player reports to the server what it can do > and the server provides that, further if you sync players the least > capable player decides , but its never lesss than 24/44.1 or 24/48 with > a Touch you should get 24/88.2 or 24/96 . > > And if your read the spec sheet > .http://www.jolida.com/product/glass-fx-tube-dac-iii > > USB: 24/96 UP SAMPLING TO 192 HZ > > TOSLINK AND COAXIAL: 24/192HZ > > You see that your DAC supports 24/96 over USB so to avoid transcoding of > 24/192 files, use the coaxial output . > > IF 24/96 files gives transcoding then i suggest visiting the EDO tread > for advice it can be some USB issue ? so try coaxial yet again . > USB implementation vary wildly between DAC's and Touch support is not on > par with a full computer , so USB is not always automagically the best > choice in every case . thanks for the detail. I guess my question is how do I know if the files are being transcoded? dhallag's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30845 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
pablolie wrote: > it's best to stay true to the original, which is 192-24 with the Touch, > and I think it's 96-24 with classic versions. From that point on it's > your DAC's capabilities that kick in, LMS and the SB provided an error > free digital path. :-) Agree with your point, but as an aside, just correcting above regarding bit rate max for different players: Touch - 24/96 (unless have EDO installed, then 24/192) Radio - 24/48 Transporter - 24/96 Boom, SB Classic, SB3 - 24/48 *Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Transporter, Touch, Boom, Radio (all ethernet) *Cottage:* VBA 3TB (2.3) > LMS 7.8 > Touch > Benchmark DAC I, Boom, Radio w/Battery (all ethernet except Radio) *Office:* Win8(64) > LMS 7.9 > Squeezelite *Spares:* Touch(3), Radio(3), Boom, SB3, CONTROLLER *Controllers:* iPhone6 & iPadAir2 (iPeng8 & Squeezepad), CONTROLLER, or SqueezePlay 7.8 on Win7(64) laptop *Files:* ripping: dbpoweramp > FLAC; post-rip: mp3tag, PerfectTunes; Streaming: Spotify garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Mnyb wrote: > there are some in whos believe system you should send pcm/wav to the > player , which is nonsense. "but it is more bits, so has to be better!" :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
pablolie wrote: > Like Mnyb stated - there's a bug in the way LMS reports higher bitrates. > Ignore it. Just make sure that under Settings>Advanced>File Types you > have your relevant stuff set up to "Native". Then you can be sure your > SB is doing it's best to stay true to the original, which is 192-24 with > the Touch, and I think it's 96-24 with classic versions. From that point > on it's your DAC's capabilities that kick in, LMS and the SB provided an > error free digital path. :-) Yes you should basically not change any file type settings unless you have to solve a problem in a special setup , for most people LMS just do the rigth thing rigth out of the box . I just wonder if OP can test if 24/96 really get transcoded ? it should not in his case . Or he may have as you say disabled "native" for flac etc :) there are some in whos believe system you should send pcm/wav to the player , which is nonsense . but the effect is transcoding for any flac file . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Like Mnyb stated - there's a bug in the way LMS reports higher bitrates. Ignore it. Just make sure that under Settings>Advanced>File Types you have your relevant stuff set up to "Native". Then you can be sure your SB is doing it's best to stay true to the original, which is 192-24 with the Touch, and I think it's 96-24 with classic versions. From that point on it's your DAC's capabilities that kick in, LMS and the SB provided an error free digital path. :-) ...pablo Server: Virtual Machine (on VMware Player) running Ubuntu 12.04 + LMS 7.7.5 System: SB Touch --optical->- Benchmark DAC2HGC --AnalysisPlus Oval Copper XLR->- NAD M22 Power Amp --AnalysisPlus Black Mesh Oval->- Totem Element Fire Other Rooms: 2x SB Boom; 1x SB Radio; 1x SB Classic-> NAD D7050 -> Totem DreamCatcher + Velodyne Minivee Sub Computer audio: workstation --USB->- audioengine D1 -> Grado PS500e/Shure 1540 pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
The 705kBps is bogus , its a bug LMS just presents a placeholder value , so you can discard that . Does the conversion actually work ? do you get sound ? Do you have a complete log for the conversion process , somewhere in there you see the SoX parameters used . But the squeezebox environment is such that the player reports to the server what it can do and the server provides that, further if you sync players the least capable player decides , but its never lesss than 24/44.1 or 24/48 with a Touch you should get 24/88.2 or 24/96 . And if your read the spec sheet .http://www.jolida.com/product/glass-fx-tube-dac-iii USB: 24/96 UP SAMPLING TO 192 HZ TOSLINK AND COAXIAL: 24/192HZ You see that your DAC supports 24/96 over USB so to avoid transcoding of 24/192 files, use the coaxial output . IF 24/96 files gives transcoding then i suggest visiting the EDO tread for advice it can be some USB issue ? so try coaxial yet again . USB implementation vary wildly between DAC's and Touch support is not on par with a full computer , so USB is not always automagically the best choice in every case . Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3 sub. Bedroom/Office: Boom Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4 Misc use: Radio (with battery) iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad (spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller ) server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
Re: [slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
dhallag wrote: > Is there an easy way to verify the bitrate my music is playing at? What happened to good old "trust your ears"? :) "To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this fast-growing art of 'high fidelity' the quackery will bear a solid gilt edge that will fool many people" - Paul W Klipsch, 1953 Julf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=42050 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
[slim] Confirmation of bitrate?
Hi Everyone. As a reminder, I have a squeezebox touch running the enhanced digital out via USB to a Jolida Tube DAC III that process 192/24. Is there an easy way to verify the bitrate my music is playing at? I have plenty of 192/24 96/24 files but I always get thrown by the "Converted to 705kbsp FLAC." In looking at a debug of my conversion log, I do see these errors: getConvertCommand2 (382) Rejecting - because required capability T not supported getConvertCommand2 (382) Rejecting - because required capability D not supported for every FLAC file. But I really have no idea what this means. Thanks much for your help in advance. darien dhallag's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=30845 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=105484 ___ discuss mailing list discuss@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/discuss
