[ACFUG Discuss] RE: TheUNSOLICITED politics of DATA MINING
!... This response is not directed at any one individual and therefore should not be taken personally by any one individual. However as they say. If the shoe fits... ... I have renamed this email as shown so that those who want to help can reply to the other thread, and those that want to discuss legal politics (I don't) can discuss it on this thread. So what's the deal...? Is the subject of more help due to questionable legalities from some of YOUR perspectives negating the ability to provide help and direction? I have gotten very little help (those that have helped thank you very much) but I sure have gotten A LOT of UNSOLICITED FLACK about the moral issues of what we are trying to do. Help is available everywhere. Some places are better helps than others. You guys are near, uniquely qualified, mostly friendly, and in general I hear helpful. I hope that things work out with us all as I am trying to find a way to get rolling in the CF language and community. But honestly..., I'm getting a bad taste in my mouth digging through the politics today to try to glean some wisdom from the gurus about starting down a road that I need to travel. I'm trying hard to learn be patient, and I need solutions. I'm desperate to find them and my pockets are not deep. Some day they will be and I can hire folks from the list to work full time if need be, but not now. So for now, I grovel and beg for kind assistance. I could say more, but... in an attempt to humble myself... I digress... Ok Im off my soap box. Robert P. Reil Managing Director, Motorcyclecarbs.com, Inc. 4292 Country Garden Walk NW Kennesaw, Ga. 30152 Office 770-974-8851 Fax 770-974-8852 www.motorcyclecarbs.com -Original Message- From: Mischa Uppelschoten ext 10 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 3:48 PM To: discussion@acfug.org Subject: re[2]: [ACFUG Discuss] DATA MINING! If you publish something, it's not automatically copyrighted, it has to be somewhat unique. Your blog is certainly copyrighted because it's unique/a work of art; your blog is not copyrighted simply because you publish it. The fair use clause in copyright law also relates to how the content is used. If Robert is using that data for research, he is fine (however, the site specifically prohibits using that data outside it's catalog, but that's an aside). The part numbers and descriptions may have been publicised on microfiche one time, but if a company went through great pains to digitize it and make it available/searchable, it's not necessarily there for the taking and I think it would be considered a work of art. If a search engine spiders your site and makes it available through it's search mechanism, it does so to direct traffic to your site and not because it's in the same business as you are. The content is used for a different purpose and therefore it may be fair use. (Obviously I'm not a lawyer :-) /m The content on my site is public, but it is also copyrighted by the fact that its been published. The line is pretty clear. -dhs Dean H. Saxe, CEH [EMAIL PROTECTED] [U]nconstitutional behavior by the authorities is constrained only by the peoples' willingness to contest them --John Perry Barlow Find out about my Hike for Discovery at www.fullfrontalnerdity.com/hfd On Jun 8, 2006, at 3:00 PM, John Mason wrote: I'm not a lawyer but I would think that if the content is public (no login required, etc) that it could easily fall into a possible free-use. Otherwise, the caching servers and browsers that save and storage the content and images could be breaking the copyright by default as well. Of course, some copyright statements may have that exception written in somewhere. There's certainly a blurred line with this. John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dean H. Saxe Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 2:16 PM To: discussion@acfug.org Subject: Re: [ACFUG Discuss] DATA MINING! Good question... and I am not sure of a good answer on that one. I've always wondered how Google and the WayBackMachine get away with it and call it fair-use. -dhs Dean H. Saxe, CEH [EMAIL PROTECTED] Free speech exercised both individually and through a free press, is a necessity in any country where people are themselves free. -- Theodore Roosevelt, 1918 Find out about my Hike for Discovery at www.fullfrontalnerdity.com/hfd On Jun 8, 2006, at 2:05 PM, John Mason wrote: First, I'm not advocating data mining. From the system admin side of things, it generally annoys me, but just out of curiosity what is the legal difference between data mining a public site and a search engine bot that indexes the content and images. Seems to me they would be doing the same thing? John [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of
re: [ACFUG Discuss] RE: TheUNSOLICITED politics of DATA MINING
FWIW, I'm not taking anything personal and I love to help where I can. I thought the branch about legality was interesting enough to comment on it and I tought I'd put in my $0.02. I'm not telling you what to do or not, just giving my opinion. And as you wrote, if the shoe fits, wear it. !... This response is not directed at any one individual and therefore should not be taken personally by any one individual. However as they say. If the shoe fits... ... I have renamed this email as shown so that those who want to help can reply to the other thread, and those that want to discuss legal politics (I don't) can discuss it on this thread. So what's the deal...? Is the subject of more help due to questionable legalities from some of YOUR perspectives negating the ability to provide help and direction? I have gotten very little help (those that have helped thank you very much) but I sure have gotten A LOT of UNSOLICITED FLACK about the moral issues of what we are trying to do. Help is available everywhere. Some places are better helps than others. You guys are near, uniquely qualified, mostly friendly, and in general I hear helpful. I hope that things work out with us all as I am trying to find a way to get rolling in the CF language and community. But honestly..., I'm getting a bad taste in my mouth digging through the politics today to try to glean some wisdom from the gurus about starting down a road that I need to travel. I'm trying hard to learn be patient, and I need solutions. I'm desperate to find them and my pockets are not deep. Some day they will be and I can hire folks from the list to work full time if need be, but not now. So for now, I grovel and beg for kind assistance. I could say more, but... in an attempt to humble myself... I digress... Ok Im off my soap box. Robert P. Reil Managing Director, Motorcyclecarbs.com, Inc. 4292 Country Garden Walk NW Kennesaw, Ga. 30152 Office 770-974-8851 Fax 770-974-8852 www.motorcyclecarbs.com -Original Message- From: Mischa Uppelschoten ext 10 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 3:48 PM To: discussion@acfug.org Subject: re[2]: [ACFUG Discuss] DATA MINING! If you publish something, it's not automatically copyrighted, it has to be somewhat unique. Your blog is certainly copyrighted because it's unique/a work of art; your blog is not copyrighted simply because you publish it. The fair use clause in copyright law also relates to how the content is used. If Robert is using that data for research, he is fine (however, the site specifically prohibits using that data outside it's catalog, but that's an aside). The part numbers and descriptions may have been publicised on microfiche one time, but if a company went through great pains to digitize it and make it available/searchable, it's not necessarily there for the taking and I think it would be considered a work of art. If a search engine spiders your site and makes it available through it's search mechanism, it does so to direct traffic to your site and not because it's in the same business as you are. The content is used for a different purpose and therefore it may be fair use. (Obviously I'm not a lawyer :-) /m The content on my site is public, but it is also copyrighted by the fact that its been published. The line is pretty clear. -dhs Dean H. Saxe, CEH [EMAIL PROTECTED] [U]nconstitutional behavior by the authorities is constrained only by the peoples' willingness to contest them --John Perry Barlow Find out about my Hike for Discovery at www.fullfrontalnerdity.com/hfd On Jun 8, 2006, at 3:00 PM, John Mason wrote: I'm not a lawyer but I would think that if the content is public (no login required, etc) that it could easily fall into a possible free-use. Otherwise, the caching servers and browsers that save and storage the content and images could be breaking the copyright by default as well. Of course, some copyright statements may have that exception written in somewhere. There's certainly a blurred line with this. John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dean H. Saxe Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 2:16 PM To: discussion@acfug.org Subject: Re: [ACFUG Discuss] DATA MINING! Good question... and I am not sure of a good answer on that one. I've always wondered how Google and the WayBackMachine get away with it and call it fair-use. -dhs Dean H. Saxe, CEH [EMAIL PROTECTED] Free speech exercised both individually and through a free press, is a necessity in any country where people are themselves free. -- Theodore Roosevelt, 1918 Find out about my Hike for Discovery at www.fullfrontalnerdity.com/hfd On Jun 8, 2006, at 2:05 PM, John Mason wrote: First, I'm not advocating data mining. From the system admin side of things, it generally annoys me, but just out of curiosity what is the legal difference between data
Re: [ACFUG Discuss] RE: TheUNSOLICITED politics of DATA MINING
Since I started this, I assume its directed partly at me. I have no problem helping you, Robert, and have offered lots of help to your many questions in the past. However, I feel its in your best interest to know what you are contemplating is possibly illegal and certainly not something I, or other responsible members of the community, condone. I won't debate the legality of it, IANAL. However, copyright law is pretty darn clear on what you can and cannot legally do. Stealing images from one site to use on your own is quite likely outside the legal limits of fair use. If you wouldn't mind someone stealing your hard work and reusing it, then by all means, go ahead. However, I think you'd be pretty upset if someone did the same thing to you. -dhs Dean H. Saxe, CEH [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dissent is the purest form of patriotism. --Thomas Jefferson Find out about my Hike for Discovery at www.fullfrontalnerdity.com/hfd On Jun 8, 2006, at 4:28 PM, Robert Reil wrote: !... This response is not directed at any one individual and therefore should not be taken personally by any one individual. However as they say. If the shoe fits... ... I have renamed this email as shown so that those who want to help can reply to the other thread, and those that want to discuss legal politics (I don't) can discuss it on this thread. So what's the deal...? Is the subject of more help due to questionable legalities from some of YOUR perspectives negating the ability to provide help and direction? I have gotten very little help (those that have helped thank you very much) but I sure have gotten A LOT of UNSOLICITED FLACK about the moral issues of what we are trying to do. Help is available everywhere. Some places are better helps than others. You guys are near, uniquely qualified, mostly friendly, and in general I hear helpful. I hope that things work out with us all as I am trying to find a way to get rolling in the CF language and community. But honestly..., I'm getting a bad taste in my mouth digging through the politics today to try to glean some wisdom from the gurus about starting down a road that I need to travel. I'm trying hard to learn be patient, and I need solutions. I'm desperate to find them and my pockets are not deep. Some day they will be and I can hire folks from the list to work full time if need be, but not now. So for now, I grovel and beg for kind assistance. I could say more, but... in an attempt to humble myself... I digress... Ok Im off my soap box. Robert P. Reil Managing Director, Motorcyclecarbs.com, Inc. 4292 Country Garden Walk NW Kennesaw, Ga. 30152 Office 770-974-8851 Fax 770-974-8852 www.motorcyclecarbs.com -Original Message- From: Mischa Uppelschoten ext 10 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 3:48 PM To: discussion@acfug.org Subject: re[2]: [ACFUG Discuss] DATA MINING! If you publish something, it's not automatically copyrighted, it has to be somewhat unique. Your blog is certainly copyrighted because it's unique/a work of art; your blog is not copyrighted simply because you publish it. The fair use clause in copyright law also relates to how the content is used. If Robert is using that data for research, he is fine (however, the site specifically prohibits using that data outside it's catalog, but that's an aside). The part numbers and descriptions may have been publicised on microfiche one time, but if a company went through great pains to digitize it and make it available/searchable, it's not necessarily there for the taking and I think it would be considered a work of art. If a search engine spiders your site and makes it available through it's search mechanism, it does so to direct traffic to your site and not because it's in the same business as you are. The content is used for a different purpose and therefore it may be fair use. (Obviously I'm not a lawyer :-) /m The content on my site is public, but it is also copyrighted by the fact that its been published. The line is pretty clear. -dhs Dean H. Saxe, CEH [EMAIL PROTECTED] [U]nconstitutional behavior by the authorities is constrained only by the peoples' willingness to contest them --John Perry Barlow Find out about my Hike for Discovery at www.fullfrontalnerdity.com/hfd On Jun 8, 2006, at 3:00 PM, John Mason wrote: I'm not a lawyer but I would think that if the content is public (no login required, etc) that it could easily fall into a possible free-use. Otherwise, the caching servers and browsers that save and storage the content and images could be breaking the copyright by default as well. Of course, some copyright statements may have that exception written in somewhere. There's certainly a blurred line with this. John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dean H. Saxe Sent:
