Re: Social Justice II. Digital Revolution 2012.
On Mon, Jan 09, 2012, Zeev Pekar wrote about "Re: Social Justice II. Digital Revolution 2012.": > It is exactly what Matrix did - they bought a company that deals with > credit cards fraud several days ago. That company provides no technology Ok, I can understand why if the media deals with IT security, IT companies will want to boast having (so-called) security products. But I don't understand why you think that the government will want to boast security products too... The government doesn't sell products... What *might* happen is that the government will want to pass new *laws*, e.g., stating guidelines how credit card numbers should be protected. What worries me that such laws (or alternatively, rules set by the credit card companies) will dictate the use of specific non-free software (e.g., specific hypervisor, OS or DB system). If that is proposed we should fight that. But your fear was different - that the government "buy some ugly expensive software" - and I don't understand how that would happen. > It's more about attitude rather than about particular software. If you > use FOSS you always check what happens with other similar projects, so While wishing Free Software to become more common, you need to be aware of the "victim of its own sucess" phenomenon: As long as Free Software is only used in a minority of systems and typically installed by more knowledgable users, one might get the impression that free software is more secure, is better maintained than commercial software, and the "attitude" of its users (as you put it) is better than that of proprietary software users. But what will happen if one day Free Software wins, and *everybody* uses it? Do you think virus writers and other criminals will continue to focus on breaking into Windows because it's easier? Do you think that users will still have that good "attitude" and continue to "check what happens with other similar projects" like you said they do now? No, unfortunately I predict that if some free software becomes very popular, it will be shown just about as insecure as the non-free software that preceded it, and stupid users will use it in a stupid way which negates whatever security the software did have - just like they previously did with the previous proprietary software. I'm not taking a big risk with this prediction, because it's exactly what has already happened. When people switched in the 90s from SunOS to Linux (for example), did the number of breakins significantly change? When in the early 90s most of the Internet was run by free software servers, e.g., sendmail, wuftpd, BIND, etc., was it free from security vulnerabilities, worms, and so on? No. Anyway, my point is that there are excellent reasons for a country to promote both the use, and the development, of free software. There's no need to bring in wrong reasons, like promising that it will magically solve credit card security problems, or improve the attitude or knowledge of system administrators. -- Nadav Har'El| Monday, Jan 9 2012, n...@math.technion.ac.il |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Committee: A group of people that keeps http://nadav.harel.org.il |minutes and wastes hours. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Social Justice II. Digital Revolution 2012.
On Mon, 2012-01-09 at 08:42 +0200, Nadav Har'El wrote: > On Sun, Jan 08, 2012, Zeev Pekar wrote about "Re: Social Justice II. Digital > Revolution 2012.": > > group of the society. The issue with the credit cards created pressure > > on the government and I think they need and want to undertake decisive > > steps in order to show that they care however I doubt they know what to > > do. I'm afraid they will buy some ugly expensive software (from your tax > > money!) instead of going FOSS and investing money into peoples' > > While I'm (as most of you know) all for free software, you can't > convince people with flawed logic. How is the latest credit card list > leak going to cause the government (!?) to buy some "ugly expensive > software"? There are two points: a) they need to show to the electorate that they care, b) solve the problem. If they can do both - great! If not, you can imagine in which of them they will invest their effort. They could buy whatever software that has "security" in its name and the more money they will waste, the better they will demonstrate their devotion. It is exactly what Matrix did - they bought a company that deals with credit cards fraud several days ago. That company provides no technology to prevent what happened, but it doesn't matter since most of the folks don't understand what it is all about anyway. However Matrix will get new clients because of this deal. > Software to do what? Which free software would you like the > government to use, or develop, instead? > > According to the reports in the media (I have to admit I have no direct > knowledge in that matter), at least some of the breakins were caused by > substandard system administration on the infiltrated sites: Credit-card > databases were hosted on the same machines as unsecure services, and > once the perpetrator broke into the unsecure service, he would use some > local vulnerability to take over the rest of the services on the same > host. Such breakins could have happened, and have happened, on proprietary > and on free software. I think that to suggest that free software alone > would have saved the day (without educating system administrators as well) That's exactly what I've said in my last email - the money they spend on software they should invest in educating people. > would only make us look like crackpots. > > > expertise thus leaving capital at home. Considering the background of > > summer protests the opportunity for the national wide migration to FOSS > > is quite unique and it is a pity to miss this. If the things will > > You're right that *in general*, free software can help keep programming > jobs in the country, because when one needs some bug fix or feature, he > can pay a local programmer to do it, rather than needing to pay the > company who sold the software - usually a foreign company - to do the > fix. > > However, the situation in *Israel* has an added twist: The local market > is tiny, and most of the Israeli hightech sector sells its (nonfree) > software abroad, not locally. So if the world moves to free software, > it is not clear if this will really benefit the Israeli hightech sector. > My belief is that it will, but it's not suprising that many people will > think it won't. 1) I mentioned governmental IT infrastructure and not that of private companies. This will influence the private sector also to some extent however. But anyway local market in Cuba is not much bigger than the Israeli one. 2) There is no problem to develop proprietary software based on free software. We ( avtechscientific.com ) do just that using exclusively free tools. Even if we are asked to do smth. for Windows we port our apps to it without leaving Linux. > > > FOSS is of good quality and secure (providing proofs - USA) and how it > > can then be free of charge (see Cuba and Peru). > > FOSS is good quality and secure, but so is a lot of well-installed and > well-maintained proprietary software. I'm afraid your arguments here are > not convincing :( > It's more about attitude rather than about particular software. If you use FOSS you always check what happens with other similar projects, so you have software that suits you best. This widens your horizon and you are always up to date(this crucial for security related issues). However if you have learned smth. AND paid money for it - there is little chance you will move to smth. else. So there is no reason to check available options and you stay with one app for years. But most important point is : FOSS is good/secure AND free of charge so government is obligated to choose it in order to save tax payers' money. Zeev ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Social Justice II. Digital Revolution 2012.
On Sun, Jan 08, 2012, Zeev Pekar wrote about "Re: Social Justice II. Digital Revolution 2012.": > group of the society. The issue with the credit cards created pressure > on the government and I think they need and want to undertake decisive > steps in order to show that they care however I doubt they know what to > do. I'm afraid they will buy some ugly expensive software (from your tax > money!) instead of going FOSS and investing money into peoples' While I'm (as most of you know) all for free software, you can't convince people with flawed logic. How is the latest credit card list leak going to cause the government (!?) to buy some "ugly expensive software"? Software to do what? Which free software would you like the government to use, or develop, instead? According to the reports in the media (I have to admit I have no direct knowledge in that matter), at least some of the breakins were caused by substandard system administration on the infiltrated sites: Credit-card databases were hosted on the same machines as unsecure services, and once the perpetrator broke into the unsecure service, he would use some local vulnerability to take over the rest of the services on the same host. Such breakins could have happened, and have happened, on proprietary and on free software. I think that to suggest that free software alone would have saved the day (without educating system administrators as well) would only make us look like crackpots. > expertise thus leaving capital at home. Considering the background of > summer protests the opportunity for the national wide migration to FOSS > is quite unique and it is a pity to miss this. If the things will You're right that *in general*, free software can help keep programming jobs in the country, because when one needs some bug fix or feature, he can pay a local programmer to do it, rather than needing to pay the company who sold the software - usually a foreign company - to do the fix. However, the situation in *Israel* has an added twist: The local market is tiny, and most of the Israeli hightech sector sells its (nonfree) software abroad, not locally. So if the world moves to free software, it is not clear if this will really benefit the Israeli hightech sector. My belief is that it will, but it's not suprising that many people will think it won't. > FOSS is of good quality and secure (providing proofs - USA) and how it > can then be free of charge (see Cuba and Peru). FOSS is good quality and secure, but so is a lot of well-installed and well-maintained proprietary software. I'm afraid your arguments here are not convincing :( -- Nadav Har'El| Monday, Jan 9 2012, n...@math.technion.ac.il |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |It's fortunate I have bad luck - without http://nadav.harel.org.il |it I would have no luck at all! ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Social Justice II. Digital Revolution 2012.
On Sun, 2012-01-08 at 00:16 +0200, Shai Berger wrote: > Hi Zeev and all, > > On Saturday 07 January 2012, Zeev Pekar wrote: > > Shalom, > > > > camping time might be over but not the struggle for lowering living > > costs. Hereby I appeal to the Hamakor leadership to start an online > > campaign to lobby government to adopt Linux and other FOSS in all its > > institutions [...] What do > > think about sending a chain email (CC to all Israeli FOSS mailing lists) > > with a link to an online petition form(/Facebook page) and > > emails/fax/telephone numbers of Prime Minister, Minister of Defense and > > Minister of Science and Technology asking [...] to stop wasting tax payers' > > money [...]? > > > Hamakor leaders should be ready to speak to the ministers once they are > > ready to listen. > > > Before starting an online petition and mass-mailing campaign, please read some > of this interesting thread on the Open Knesset list: > http://groups.google.com/group/open-knesset/browse_thread/thread/0adc67b2e726dd6b# > > Pay speciall attention to the first message by Lior Sheffer, explaining the > limited effect of such campaigns. Hi Shai :) thank you for your remarks. I think that our case is a bit different from that described by Lior Sheffer. We do not look for personal benefit (at least not direct one) and we are talking about a matter of national importance while those guys in the message represented very specific group of the society. The issue with the credit cards created pressure on the government and I think they need and want to undertake decisive steps in order to show that they care however I doubt they know what to do. I'm afraid they will buy some ugly expensive software (from your tax money!) instead of going FOSS and investing money into peoples' expertise thus leaving capital at home. Considering the background of summer protests the opportunity for the national wide migration to FOSS is quite unique and it is a pity to miss this. If the things will continue this way there will be better IT experts in Zimbabwe within a decade than here (provided that Dimona will not be blown up by another Stuxnet so here will be somebody to compare to). Lior is right that simply sending copy-pasted emails will not work. That's why I also provided fax numbers - you can't delete a fax :) but most important is to call and try to reach relevant people by phone and talk to them personally. I'm pretty sure they will listen once there is enough momentum. They are interested in finding a solution you just have to guide them in the right direction. So all the messages sent to them (through whatever media) should be personal in nature and explain why FOSS is of good quality and secure (providing proofs - USA) and how it can then be free of charge (see Cuba and Peru). Online petitions can work very well - see recent successful attempt to avoid Israel Electric Company being put under the supervision of rabbinate. I'll start calling, but me alone is not enough. Any volunteers? Zeev ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Social Justice II. Digital Revolution 2012.
Hi Zeev and all, On Saturday 07 January 2012, Zeev Pekar wrote: > Shalom, > > camping time might be over but not the struggle for lowering living > costs. Hereby I appeal to the Hamakor leadership to start an online > campaign to lobby government to adopt Linux and other FOSS in all its > institutions [...] What do > think about sending a chain email (CC to all Israeli FOSS mailing lists) > with a link to an online petition form(/Facebook page) and > emails/fax/telephone numbers of Prime Minister, Minister of Defense and > Minister of Science and Technology asking [...] to stop wasting tax payers' > money [...]? > Hamakor leaders should be ready to speak to the ministers once they are > ready to listen. > Before starting an online petition and mass-mailing campaign, please read some of this interesting thread on the Open Knesset list: http://groups.google.com/group/open-knesset/browse_thread/thread/0adc67b2e726dd6b# Pay speciall attention to the first message by Lior Sheffer, explaining the limited effect of such campaigns. HTH, Shai. ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
