Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

[Benjamin Scherrey]

Hi Kevin,

   And thanx for responding to my question about the need for such a policy
with Django. Last night, as I had not yet had a response from anyone about
this question I searched the archives of both django groups looking for any
events or circumstances in which the code of conduct was invoked as I had
no personal recollection of any such thing. I found some innocuous
reference in the django-users group (wrongly suggesting that this coming
policy was going to increase female participation) and in
django-developers, one actual circumstance where its use was threatened -
not surprisingly as part of the one example you provided that actually has
anything to do at all with the Django community. Sadly, it's invocation was
precisely used in the manner that I had feared - to stifle debate and
threaten a person who was making valid and reasonable arguments (no doubt
in the middle of a flame war but he/she wasn't the flamer). When I saw the
name of the person who invoked the code of conduct I was even more
disappointed as it was someone that I otherwise have a profound respect for.

Other than this I was not surprised to see zero evidence for the need
for such a policy as there don't seem to be any threatening events of the
like that your email raises. These problems may exist elsewhere but not
amongst the general django community that I've ever seen.

Understand my background. I own a software development company that was
a VERY early adopter of Django way before the 1.0 days. I expect I was
certainly one of the first thousand developers to use Django in a real-life
situation once it got outside of the newspaper where it was created. My
company is one of the first to build commercial systems for clients on top
of Django. My staff even has a few little commits into the django code base
over the years, although minor, but we were proud nonetheless to be able to
contribute in some small way. I've attended my share of PyCons (prior to
the invention of DjangoCon which I hope to attend one day) and have always
found the community very open and inclusive of all types. This is a Good
Thing (TM). I've even sent 5 staff to the event, four of which happened to
be women. My team now consists of 34+ people, all but two of which are in a
technical capacity. WE are geeks who seek out other geeks who want to be
appreciated solely based on merit. We happen to have about a 40% female
colleague share and explicitly do NOT have a diversity policy (nor will we
ever have an HR department but that's another story). I simply am strong at
identifying and attracting people with strong potential and the market is
so extremely competitive that one must leave no stone unturned in order to
find the best. THAT is the one way that a more inclusive group will come
into being and for the right reasons.

So I have actually achieved what everyone is crying out for and can't
seem to figure how to accomplish. It wasn't difficult. I'm here to tell you
that diversity policies and codes of conduct, in my experience consulting
to dozens of commercial, government, and educational organizations in my
30+ years of experience have never once helped achieve their stated goals
and, many times, have hurt both the organization and it's intended
beneficiaries. True to my experience, the one threatened invocation of the
code of conduct for Django fits right in line with my experience of such
policies, sadly.

Therefore, I hope everyone appreciates that I'm fully invested in
Django and attracting the best & brightest into our community. I think
you'll see Kevin, that I supported your first PR but have very grave
concerns about the second for the reasons I've already gone into great
detail about. I do believe completely that both were put forward with good
intentions. I'm all for policies that put forward good examples of
appreciated behavior and add to the general sense of inclusiveness which I
think your first one does. It scares the hell out of me when people start
enumerating banned conduct and speech - and I wish more people understood
the issue as well as I about why. That's why I'm quite vocal about this.

Thanx for your time and interest,

   -- Ben Scherrey

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Kevin Daum  wrote:

> Thanks Russ, I assumed as much, having read
> https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/changes/.
>
>
> --
>
> Perhaps Daniele's keynote talk at Djangocon this year, combined with the
> already very good Django code of conduct, caused me to assume too much of
> this community's progression towards appreciating both the need of
> diversity in tech and the actual conditions required to bring that about.
>
> Benjamin, you asked if there is an actual problem that needs solving. Yes.
> Absolutely. It is a systemic one within the world of software development
> and I am excited to be a part of a particular software 

Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

[Kevin Daum]

Thanks Russ, I assumed as much, having 
read https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/changes/. 

--

Perhaps Daniele's keynote talk at Djangocon this year, combined with the 
already very good Django code of conduct, caused me to assume too much of 
this community's progression towards appreciating both the need of 
diversity in tech and the actual conditions required to bring that about. 

Benjamin, you asked if there is an actual problem that needs solving. Yes. 
Absolutely. It is a systemic one within the world of software development 
and I am excited to be a part of a particular software development 
community that is taking proactive steps towards the goal of a safe, 
supportive environment for *everyone *who is working towards that same 
goal. The quality of our software will reflect the quality of our 
community. Here is just a tiny sample of reading for any who are interested 
in learning why these kinds of policies are so important:


   1. See the recent case of Anita Sarkeesian, which is one sort of 
   situation I have in mind when writing down a policy such as this:
   https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/504718160902492160/photo/1
   
   
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/29/gaming-vlogger-anita-sarkeesian-is-forced-from-home-after-receiving-harrowing-death-threats/
   2. http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/abuse-as-ddos, including this bit: 
   "Just like with computer security, you should have plans in place to 
   identify and address attacks. At conferences, user groups, and other 
   events, this can take the form of a code of conduct along with a policy for 
   enforcement. In workplaces, this often takes the form of an employee 
   handbook. These types of policies help mitigate attacks when they happen, 
   so that decisions don’t have to be made on the fly when something goes 
   wrong. These policies are far from perfect fixes for everything, but 
   they’re better than doing nothing."
   3. http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/the-open-source-identity-crisis. 
   By the way, I'm proud that the one time this author links to something 
   django-related, it's this situation 
   

 
   in which the core devs wisely and quickly made the right choice.




On Monday, September 8, 2014 9:37:16 PM UTC-4, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
>
> Hi Kevin,
>
> Thanks for these suggestions.
>
> By way of settings expectations - a patch of this nature has a little more 
> procedural overhead than a normal patch, because it requires a change to 
> our community policies. Regardless of the merit (or otherwise) of a 
> specific proposal, a change to these policies needs to be ratified by the 
> core team and the DSF membership before it goes into effect.
>
> Discussions on the ticket itself from people outside those groups is 
> definitely welcome - the broader opinion and attitudes of the community 
> will be considered as part of the ratification process. But it's not 
> something that a small group of people can quickly agree on and commit. 
>
> Russ %-)
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Kevin Daum  > wrote:
>
>> I have submitted two pull requests for the code of conduct:
>>
>>- #84 , to let 
>>folks who belong to a wide variety of social identities know that yes, 
>> even 
>>they are welcome here, and
>>- #86 , to make 
>>explicit the currently implicit policy that someone's abusive behavior 
>>outside the django community *may* have an adverse effect on their 
>>ability to participate within the django community.
>>
>> I welcome your feedback. 
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kevin Daum
>>
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>> 
>> .
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>>
>
>

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Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Russell Keith-Magee]

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 11:24 PM, Carl Meyer  wrote:

> On 09/08/2014 08:56 AM, Aymeric Augustin wrote:
> > 2014-09-08 16:21 GMT+02:00 Thomas Leo  > >:
> >
> > +1 for django-contributors
> >
> >
> > That would be "Django Contributors" since we're talking about changing
> > the display name of the group, not its email address.
> >
> > It's a good proposal.
>
> I agree. I don't see any reason not to try this.
>
> Who has access to the Google Groups admin?
>

I do.

As a matter of formality, I'd like to put this through the technical board
so that it isn't just a fiat decision by the handful of people motivated to
participate in this discussion.

Russ %-)

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

[Russell Keith-Magee]

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for these suggestions.

By way of settings expectations - a patch of this nature has a little more
procedural overhead than a normal patch, because it requires a change to
our community policies. Regardless of the merit (or otherwise) of a
specific proposal, a change to these policies needs to be ratified by the
core team and the DSF membership before it goes into effect.

Discussions on the ticket itself from people outside those groups is
definitely welcome - the broader opinion and attitudes of the community
will be considered as part of the ratification process. But it's not
something that a small group of people can quickly agree on and commit.

Russ %-)


On Sun, Sep 7, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Kevin Daum  wrote:

> I have submitted two pull requests for the code of conduct:
>
>- #84 , to let
>folks who belong to a wide variety of social identities know that yes, even
>they are welcome here, and
>- #86 , to make
>explicit the currently implicit policy that someone's abusive behavior
>outside the django community *may* have an adverse effect on their
>ability to participate within the django community.
>
> I welcome your feedback.
>
> Thanks,
> Kevin Daum
>
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> .
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Re: #20824 - Email-based auth contrib module; some help required

[Russell Keith-Magee]

Hi JJ,

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 2:26 AM, JJ Zolper  wrote:

> Hey guys,
>
> I can only imagine how busy everyone has been with Django 1.7 and getting
> that wrapped up with all the great new features it includes. I know I have
> been spending a good bit of time updating my work.
>
> I know Russell said here that we were thinking it could be put out in 1.7
> but I totally understand from all that has been going on that it didn't get
> released just yet. I looked through and from what I reviewed I didn't see
> it just yet which is totally fine. I thought it was fairly simple but I can
> see I certainly don't know enough as I see there are a lot of details that
> arose in this thread.
>
> I'm by no means trying to come off as impatient, just if anyone could give
> me an update on where things are that would be great as I'm just really
> curious about this little app and what changes I would then make.
>

It's been a while since I've looked at the code, but to the best of my
recollection, the code itself was in pretty good shape (after all, there
isn't *that* much that needs to be done) - but there were two issues.

The first was related to testing, which you've highlighted:


> If it's not too much to ask and it is even doable based on how things are
> built I was hoping to put in my 2 cents below:
>
> When Russell said "Both auth.User and emailauth.User have relations with
> Group, and the names clash, so the test suite won't start." I have a
> comment.
>
> My best case scenario preference for the name of the app would be
> "django.contrib.auth.EmailUser". Would that then solve the issue of the
> names clashing as then it would be "auth.User" and "auth.EmailUser"? I also
> think it is cleaner to not put "emailauth" and put the home for both "User"
> and "EmailUser" in "auth".
>

Yes, this makes the problem go away. However, I'm not especially happy
about this as an approach.

On the bikeshed scale, I'm not especially happy about the name
"emailauth.EmailUser" - repeating the "email" bit strikes me as a
redundancy.

The other, bigger issue is the problem that this reveals with swappable
models in general. On some level, I consider contrib.auth to be a testbed
for the broader feature of swappable models, and while we *could* work
around this problem by holding our collective noses about the name, I'd
like to take a stab at addressing the bigger problem (or at least
establishing that the bigger problem *can't* be solved, so we know
nose-holding is a required engineering approach :-)

The second problem revealed with a generic solution to email-based auth was
the handling around case sensitivity in email usernames (raised by Tilman).
Truly RFC-compliant case sensitivity in emails requires a whole bunch of
logic that doesn't map well to Django's capabilities; slightly less
RFC-compliant solutions are possible, but at the time I proposed the patch,
I didn't have enough time to run through all the consequences of these
changes.

Compounding all this is a lack of time on my part. I'm still keen to see a
solution to this problem, and I'm willing to commit to some review and
feedback, but I don't have enough cycles at the moment to dedicate to doing
this myself.

I appreciate this is quite frustrating; it seems like such a little
feature, and it keeps getting deferred.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

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Re: Bug in django\forms\models.py in _construct_form, line 593?

[Josh Smeaton]

At this point I think you're in the realm of django-users. This is probably 
a bug in user code rather than django, and you'll get better help from the 
django-users mailing list or IRC. At a guess the issue may be related to 
your views not being threadsafe, so you should show your entire view, and 
how you plug that view into your urlconf.

Regards,

On Tuesday, 9 September 2014 03:39:46 UTC+10, Piotr Gosławski wrote:
>
> My project is not python 2 compatibile so I've tried to create a minimal 
> project that would reproduce the error, but failed to do so. Turned out the 
> view throwing KeyError was not the problem, at least not by itself. I went 
> back to the original project and started poking at it. Finally I've noticed 
> that the problem doesn't occur until I visit the page associated with 
> another view. *So basically view1 was breaking the worker process in such 
> a weird way, that view2 (the one with formset) started throwing KeyError 
> exception. All the other views were not affected.* After restarting the 
> server it worked again unil I visited view1.
>
> Refreshing the page was only making it apear random because I had multiple 
> worker processes. After changing number of processes to 1 it was more clear 
> what was happening. Problem occured on Apache with mod_wsgi and uWSGI. It 
> was also appearing on django's devserver, but stopped and I have no idea 
> why.
>
> I then started looking at view1 (based on CreateView) and commented out 
> this method (just taking a long shot):
>
> def get_initial(self):
> self.initial.update({
> 'start_time':datetime.datetime.utcnow().replace(tzinfo=utc) + 
> datetime.timedelta(seconds = 30),
> 'end_time':datetime.datetime.utcnow().replace(tzinfo=utc) + 
> datetime.timedelta(minutes = 60),
> })
> return self.initial.copy()
>
> The problem disappeared, but I don't really understand why.
> Is there something wrong with the code above?
> What kind of sorcery is this?
>

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Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Atul Bhouraskar]

+1 for Django Contributors.

This also aligns with all the documentation on djangoproject.com where
there is an entire section on 'Contribution'.

We even have a "Contributor Licence Agreement'.

Atul


On 9 September 2014 01:24, Carl Meyer  wrote:

> On 09/08/2014 08:56 AM, Aymeric Augustin wrote:
> > 2014-09-08 16:21 GMT+02:00 Thomas Leo  > >:
> >
> > +1 for django-contributors
> >
> >
> > That would be "Django Contributors" since we're talking about changing
> > the display name of the group, not its email address.
> >
> > It's a good proposal.
>
> I agree. I don't see any reason not to try this.
>
> Who has access to the Google Groups admin?
>
> Carl
>
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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

[Stephen Burrows]

If you think you could do it better, maybe you should submit your own
version for consideration. I assume that's how the process works.


On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 11:20 AM, Benjamin Scherrey 
wrote:

> Daniele,
>
> You're reading me completely wrong. I am not being sarcastic at all.
> I'm pointing out the absurdity that one style of "code of conduct"
> inevitably leads to versus another affirmative style which could actually
> serve it's intended purpose. I'm not against any code - I'm quite
> specifically supportive of one style and very aware and concerned about the
> ramifications of the other. I don't know how much more clear I can make the
> point than I already have.
>
> Thus far, however, your only response to my actual concern is
> assurances that people will "do the right thing and be reasonable". Forgive
> me if that holds absolutely no water with me because, even if I were to
> trust you personally, you have no power to enforce such an assurance. But I
> understand that's the best you can do because that is the best that can
> ever be done with this type of thing. So the only responsible action is
> don't go there. If you're going to make a policy that is completely open to
> any individual's interpretation then you've actually set back the community
> and have laid the foundation to harm to the very thing you're trying to
> protect.
>
> You keep using the term "known harasser" but attempts to codify what
> that is exactly are impossible via lists of "forbidden speech/actions". I
> welcome evidence to the contrary but I'm fairly experienced in such matters
> and don't anticipate any forthcoming. In some circles I might be a bit more
> forgiving for willfully ignoring these facts. But this is a programming
> group for goodness sakes! We know how to be specific about things and the
> dangers of opening up things to ambiguity. We can do better. So given this,
> why not just go with an affirmative policy stating how people should
> conduct themselves and demonstrate good intentions without the need to
> codify "evil things"? I think it accomplishes what you want to do and, best
> of all, could actually work!
>
> -- Ben Scherrey
>
> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 6:56 PM, Daniele Procida  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014, Benjamin Scherrey  wrote:
>>
>> >I thought I made my objections pretty clear in my original email but I'll
>> >attempt to be more pedantic about it now. The specific language in the PR
>> >86 is:
>> >
>> >"In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a
>> >person's ability to participate within them." for both faq.html and
>> >index.html.
>> >
>> >I disagree with your assertion "that only makes explicit something that
>> was
>> >already the case" because that's a) not how I read it and b) completely
>> >impossible to reasonably enforce or expect.
>>
>> I can assure you that if we became aware of someone's problematic
>> behaviour then depending on the behaviour we could do anything from keeping
>> a careful eye on the individual to - in extreme cases - banning them from
>> participation.
>>
>> "Violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's
>> ability to participate within them" is correct. It doesn't mean that action
>> will be taken, but that it may be.
>>
>> That's already the case. If a known harrasser subscribes starts posting
>> to one of our email lists, we might have a quiet word with them, just for
>> example.
>>
>> >I hope that what is occurring is
>> >simply a matter of "I don't think it means what you think it means" but
>> >what you're really saying here is that all people on this planet must
>> >comply with our "code of conduct" at all times in all places or risk
>> being
>> >removed from our community - right after, mind you ironically, claiming
>> to
>> >support an encourage the participation of all individuals.
>>
>> Being removed from the community would be the last, not the first, course
>> of action.
>>
>> >So what is this
>> >code of conduct that we're imposing on all of humanity for the salvation
>> of
>> >the world?
>>
>> You've had your points answered twice already, politely both times. If
>> you want to make sarcastic remarks for your own amusement, don't expect any
>> more replies.
>>
>> Daniele
>>
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>
>
>
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> Chief Systems Architect Proteus 

Re: [RFC] Python 3 and MySQL

[Collin Anderson]

I also don't need python 3.2 support (or even python 3.3 support for that 
matter)

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

[Benjamin Scherrey]

Daniele,

You're reading me completely wrong. I am not being sarcastic at all.
I'm pointing out the absurdity that one style of "code of conduct"
inevitably leads to versus another affirmative style which could actually
serve it's intended purpose. I'm not against any code - I'm quite
specifically supportive of one style and very aware and concerned about the
ramifications of the other. I don't know how much more clear I can make the
point than I already have.

Thus far, however, your only response to my actual concern is
assurances that people will "do the right thing and be reasonable". Forgive
me if that holds absolutely no water with me because, even if I were to
trust you personally, you have no power to enforce such an assurance. But I
understand that's the best you can do because that is the best that can
ever be done with this type of thing. So the only responsible action is
don't go there. If you're going to make a policy that is completely open to
any individual's interpretation then you've actually set back the community
and have laid the foundation to harm to the very thing you're trying to
protect.

You keep using the term "known harasser" but attempts to codify what
that is exactly are impossible via lists of "forbidden speech/actions". I
welcome evidence to the contrary but I'm fairly experienced in such matters
and don't anticipate any forthcoming. In some circles I might be a bit more
forgiving for willfully ignoring these facts. But this is a programming
group for goodness sakes! We know how to be specific about things and the
dangers of opening up things to ambiguity. We can do better. So given this,
why not just go with an affirmative policy stating how people should
conduct themselves and demonstrate good intentions without the need to
codify "evil things"? I think it accomplishes what you want to do and, best
of all, could actually work!

-- Ben Scherrey

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 6:56 PM, Daniele Procida  wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014, Benjamin Scherrey  wrote:
>
> >I thought I made my objections pretty clear in my original email but I'll
> >attempt to be more pedantic about it now. The specific language in the PR
> >86 is:
> >
> >"In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a
> >person's ability to participate within them." for both faq.html and
> >index.html.
> >
> >I disagree with your assertion "that only makes explicit something that
> was
> >already the case" because that's a) not how I read it and b) completely
> >impossible to reasonably enforce or expect.
>
> I can assure you that if we became aware of someone's problematic
> behaviour then depending on the behaviour we could do anything from keeping
> a careful eye on the individual to - in extreme cases - banning them from
> participation.
>
> "Violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's
> ability to participate within them" is correct. It doesn't mean that action
> will be taken, but that it may be.
>
> That's already the case. If a known harrasser subscribes starts posting to
> one of our email lists, we might have a quiet word with them, just for
> example.
>
> >I hope that what is occurring is
> >simply a matter of "I don't think it means what you think it means" but
> >what you're really saying here is that all people on this planet must
> >comply with our "code of conduct" at all times in all places or risk being
> >removed from our community - right after, mind you ironically, claiming to
> >support an encourage the participation of all individuals.
>
> Being removed from the community would be the last, not the first, course
> of action.
>
> >So what is this
> >code of conduct that we're imposing on all of humanity for the salvation
> of
> >the world?
>
> You've had your points answered twice already, politely both times. If you
> want to make sarcastic remarks for your own amusement, don't expect any
> more replies.
>
> Daniele
>
> --
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Re: [RFC] Python 3 and MySQL

[Tim Graham]

I don't think it'd be a problem, but I don't use MySQL or Python 3.2 on a 
regular basis.

On Monday, September 8, 2014 11:19:56 AM UTC-4, Naoki INADA wrote:
>
> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 11:28 PM, Tim Graham  > wrote: 
> > We'd need mysqlclient to support Python 3.2 (or drop official support 
> for 
> > MySQL/Python 3.2): 
>
> Python 3.3 introduces PEP 393 (Flexible String Representation) and 
> many Unicode API has 
> been changed and deprecated.  It also introduce unicode literal. 
> Supporting Python 3.2 will make code messy. 
>
> I want to drop Python 3.2 support since I believe most Python 3 users 
> are aggressive enough 
> to go forward. 
>
> How Python 3.2 important for you? 
>
> > 
> > django.core.exceptions.ImproperlyConfigured: Error loading MySQLdb 
> module: 
> > 
> /var/lib/jenkins/workspace/django-selenium/database/mysql/python/python3.2/tests/.env/lib/python3.2/site-packages/_
> mysql.cpython-32mu.so: 
> > undefined symbol: PyUnicode_AsUTF8 
> > 
> > 
> > Python 2.7 test failures: 
> > 
> > 
> > custom_pk.tests.CustomPKTests.test_required_pk 
> > fixtures.tests.FixtureLoadingTests.test_loaddata_error_message 
> > 
> generic_relations_regress.tests.GenericRelationTests.test_target_model_is_unsaved
>  
>
> > get_or_create.tests.GetOrCreateTests.test_get_or_create_invalid_params 
> > get_or_create.tests.UpdateOrCreateTests.test_integrity 
> > model_fields.tests.BooleanFieldTests.test_null_default 
> > 
> > 
> > Python 3.4 test failures: 
> > 
> > 
> > backends.tests.BackendTestCase.test_cursor_execute_with_pyformat 
> > backends.tests.BackendTestCase.test_cursor_executemany_with_pyformat 
> > 
> backends.tests.BackendTestCase.test_cursor_executemany_with_pyformat_iterator 
>
> > custom_pk.tests.CustomPKTests.test_required_pk 
> > fixtures.tests.FixtureLoadingTests.test_loaddata_error_message 
> > 
> generic_relations_regress.tests.GenericRelationTests.test_target_model_is_unsaved
>  
>
> > get_or_create.tests.GetOrCreateTests.test_get_or_create_invalid_params 
> > get_or_create.tests.UpdateOrCreateTests.test_integrity 
> > model_fields.tests.BooleanFieldTests.test_null_default 
> > raw_query.tests.RawQueryTests.test_pyformat_params 
> > 
> > 
> > Let me know if you need tracebacks, but I assume you'll need to run the 
> > tests  yourself in our to fix the issues. 
> > 
> > On Monday, September 8, 2014 9:38:22 AM UTC-4, Collin Anderson wrote: 
> >> 
> >> It's great to see us moving forward on this. Thanks to Naoki for all of 
> >> the work on this! 
> > 
> > -- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
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> > 
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/django-developers/n-TI8mBcegE/unsubscribe. 
>
> > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 
> > django-develop...@googlegroups.com . 
> > To post to this group, send email to django-d...@googlegroups.com 
> . 
> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers. 
> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> > 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/fcc06c58-a366-4996-9b57-6412d93c6483%40googlegroups.com.
>  
>
> > 
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 
>
>
>
> -- 
> INADA Naoki   
>

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Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Carl Meyer]

On 09/08/2014 08:56 AM, Aymeric Augustin wrote:
> 2014-09-08 16:21 GMT+02:00 Thomas Leo  >:
> 
> +1 for django-contributors 
> 
> 
> That would be "Django Contributors" since we're talking about changing
> the display name of the group, not its email address.
> 
> It's a good proposal.

I agree. I don't see any reason not to try this.

Who has access to the Google Groups admin?

Carl

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Re: [RFC] Python 3 and MySQL

[INADA Naoki]

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 11:28 PM, Tim Graham  wrote:
> We'd need mysqlclient to support Python 3.2 (or drop official support for
> MySQL/Python 3.2):

Python 3.3 introduces PEP 393 (Flexible String Representation) and
many Unicode API has
been changed and deprecated.  It also introduce unicode literal.
Supporting Python 3.2 will make code messy.

I want to drop Python 3.2 support since I believe most Python 3 users
are aggressive enough
to go forward.

How Python 3.2 important for you?

>
> django.core.exceptions.ImproperlyConfigured: Error loading MySQLdb module:
> /var/lib/jenkins/workspace/django-selenium/database/mysql/python/python3.2/tests/.env/lib/python3.2/site-packages/_mysql.cpython-32mu.so:
> undefined symbol: PyUnicode_AsUTF8
>
>
> Python 2.7 test failures:
>
>
> custom_pk.tests.CustomPKTests.test_required_pk
> fixtures.tests.FixtureLoadingTests.test_loaddata_error_message
> generic_relations_regress.tests.GenericRelationTests.test_target_model_is_unsaved
> get_or_create.tests.GetOrCreateTests.test_get_or_create_invalid_params
> get_or_create.tests.UpdateOrCreateTests.test_integrity
> model_fields.tests.BooleanFieldTests.test_null_default
>
>
> Python 3.4 test failures:
>
>
> backends.tests.BackendTestCase.test_cursor_execute_with_pyformat
> backends.tests.BackendTestCase.test_cursor_executemany_with_pyformat
> backends.tests.BackendTestCase.test_cursor_executemany_with_pyformat_iterator
> custom_pk.tests.CustomPKTests.test_required_pk
> fixtures.tests.FixtureLoadingTests.test_loaddata_error_message
> generic_relations_regress.tests.GenericRelationTests.test_target_model_is_unsaved
> get_or_create.tests.GetOrCreateTests.test_get_or_create_invalid_params
> get_or_create.tests.UpdateOrCreateTests.test_integrity
> model_fields.tests.BooleanFieldTests.test_null_default
> raw_query.tests.RawQueryTests.test_pyformat_params
>
>
> Let me know if you need tracebacks, but I assume you'll need to run the
> tests  yourself in our to fix the issues.
>
> On Monday, September 8, 2014 9:38:22 AM UTC-4, Collin Anderson wrote:
>>
>> It's great to see us moving forward on this. Thanks to Naoki for all of
>> the work on this!
>
> --
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INADA Naoki  

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Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Aymeric Augustin]

2014-09-08 16:21 GMT+02:00 Thomas Leo :

> +1 for django-contributors
>

That would be "Django Contributors" since we're talking about changing the
display name of the group, not its email address.

It's a good proposal.

-- 
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Re: [RFC] Python 3 and MySQL

[Tim Graham]

We'd need mysqlclient to support Python 3.2 (or drop official support for 
MySQL/Python 3.2):

django.core.exceptions.ImproperlyConfigured: Error loading MySQLdb module: 
/var/lib/jenkins/workspace/django-selenium/database/mysql/python/python3.2/tests/.env/lib/python3.2/site-packages/_mysql.cpython-32mu.so:
 undefined symbol: PyUnicode_AsUTF8


Python 2.7 test failures:


custom_pk.tests.CustomPKTests.test_required_pk
fixtures.tests.FixtureLoadingTests.test_loaddata_error_message
generic_relations_regress.tests.GenericRelationTests.test_target_model_is_unsaved
get_or_create.tests.GetOrCreateTests.test_get_or_create_invalid_params
get_or_create.tests.UpdateOrCreateTests.test_integrity
model_fields.tests.BooleanFieldTests.test_null_default


Python 3.4 test failures:


backends.tests.BackendTestCase.test_cursor_execute_with_pyformat
backends.tests.BackendTestCase.test_cursor_executemany_with_pyformat
backends.tests.BackendTestCase.test_cursor_executemany_with_pyformat_iterator
custom_pk.tests.CustomPKTests.test_required_pk
fixtures.tests.FixtureLoadingTests.test_loaddata_error_message
generic_relations_regress.tests.GenericRelationTests.test_target_model_is_unsaved
get_or_create.tests.GetOrCreateTests.test_get_or_create_invalid_params
get_or_create.tests.UpdateOrCreateTests.test_integrity
model_fields.tests.BooleanFieldTests.test_null_default
raw_query.tests.RawQueryTests.test_pyformat_params


Let me know if you need tracebacks, but I assume you'll need to run the 
tests  yourself in our to fix the issues.

On Monday, September 8, 2014 9:38:22 AM UTC-4, Collin Anderson wrote:
>
> It's great to see us moving forward on this. Thanks to Naoki for all of 
> the work on this!
>

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Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Thomas Leo]

+1 for django-contributors 

django-contributors is clearer than django developers. When companies are 
hiring web developers, they will often title the position "django 
developer". Usually these companies are not looking for people who 
"contribute" to the framework, but use the framework to develop websites.

>> At the end of the day, it's a name. It doesn't matter which name you 
pick - *someone* is going to interpret it incorrectly. 

I disagree with this. Yes its inevitable that people will accidently write 
in the wrong mailing list, but a clearer name for that list will mitigate 
this problem.

"Django core" and "Django core development" are IMHO clearer than Django 
developers, however it could also potentially be confusing given the fact 
that the framework has a module called core. This might lead people to 
think that the mailing list is specific to development of django.core. 

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

[Daniele Procida]

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014, Benjamin Scherrey  wrote:

>I thought I made my objections pretty clear in my original email but I'll
>attempt to be more pedantic about it now. The specific language in the PR
>86 is:
>
>"In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a
>person's ability to participate within them." for both faq.html and
>index.html.
>
>I disagree with your assertion "that only makes explicit something that was
>already the case" because that's a) not how I read it and b) completely
>impossible to reasonably enforce or expect.

I can assure you that if we became aware of someone's problematic behaviour 
then depending on the behaviour we could do anything from keeping a careful eye 
on the individual to - in extreme cases - banning them from participation.

"Violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to 
participate within them" is correct. It doesn't mean that action will be taken, 
but that it may be.

That's already the case. If a known harrasser subscribes starts posting to one 
of our email lists, we might have a quiet word with them, just for example.  

>I hope that what is occurring is
>simply a matter of "I don't think it means what you think it means" but
>what you're really saying here is that all people on this planet must
>comply with our "code of conduct" at all times in all places or risk being
>removed from our community - right after, mind you ironically, claiming to
>support an encourage the participation of all individuals. 

Being removed from the community would be the last, not the first, course of 
action.

>So what is this
>code of conduct that we're imposing on all of humanity for the salvation of
>the world?

You've had your points answered twice already, politely both times. If you want 
to make sarcastic remarks for your own amusement, don't expect any more replies.

Daniele

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Re: [RFC] Python 3 and MySQL

[Collin Anderson]

It's great to see us moving forward on this. Thanks to Naoki for all of the 
work on this!

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Re: [RFC] Python 3 and MySQL

[Tim Graham]

I'll test mysqlclient-python on my staging CI server today.

On Monday, September 8, 2014 3:08:41 AM UTC-4, Claude Paroz wrote:
>
> Le lundi 8 septembre 2014 08:33:39 UTC+2, Naoki INADA a écrit :
>>
>>
>> On Monday, September 8, 2014 2:04:26 PM UTC+9, Naoki INADA wrote:
>>>
>>> > 
>>> > Naoki, 
>>> > 
>>> > Are you aware of performance benchmarks comparing your MySQLdb1 fork 
>>> and 
>>> > mysql-connector-python? 
>>>
>>
>> I've posted quick benchmark:
>> https://github.com/methane/mysql-driver-benchmarks
>>
>> Most heavy part of MySQL Driver is parsing packet.
>> There are (number of columsn) descripter packet and (number of columns * 
>> number of rows) result packet in query response.
>>
>> On PyPy, packet parsing is faster after JIT warmup.
>> MySQL-Connector/Python reads from socket packet by packed.  It makes many 
>> system call.
>> PyMySQL uses buffering for faster receiving.
>>
>
> Great, 8-9x difference in favor of the C implementation (which might be 
> expected). That's a clear sign for me that we should continue using 
> primarily the C version. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make efforts to 
> support at least one Python-only driver (as asked in #12500).
>
> > About your fork, do you plan to maintain it in the middle/long term? I 
>> saw 
>> > that issues were not enabled on your Github repo. Is it on purpose? 
>> What's 
>> > the plan about bug tracking of your fork? 
>> > 
>>
>> Thanks for pointing it out.  I've enabled github issue. 
>>
>> I'll maintain mysqlclient-python until MySQLdb1 development is restarted. 
>> Since I hope MySQLdb1 and mysqlclient-python merged someday (like 
>> setuptools and distribute were merged), 
>> I don't want to implement new feature. 
>> 'maintain' means bugfix, support new Python, new libmysqlclient and 
>> new OS, etc... 
>>
>
> That makes sense.
> Tim, Florian, would it be possible to switch to that fork on the CI server 
> (both for Python 2 and 3) for MySQL?
> Then of course, if all goes well, we would need to update our 
> documentation.
>
> Claude 
>

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Re: [RFC] Python 3 and MySQL

[Collin Anderson]

Ohh wow. I also just noticed CyMySQL, which is a fork of PyMySQL with 
optional C speedups. It seems like a good idea in theory, though it appears 
to have diverged from PyMySQL a bit.

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Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

[Robert Grant]

Yeah I agree with Ben; this is one of those highly conservative things that 
might sound good, but just allow more and more extreme responses to 
nonconformist behaviour. Every unpleasant system at some point had good 
intentions, and asked the question, "But why wouldn't you want people to be 
like this?" 

The answer is: I don't know, but there are almost certainly things that the 
current lack of rules allow that I also like, and I won't like it when 
they're gone.

Similarly, as Ben makes clear, while you may intend one thing when writing 
down rules, you actually open them up to any interpretation, and things can 
get much more extreme than you intended. That's one of the reasons people 
start liberal but become conservative; they want change, but no, we didn't 
think anyone would ever do *that!* And if you say, "But we won't let things 
go bad" then the obvious answer is: you have written rules, or you have 
dictators. Having both is the same as having dictators. All it'll do is 
expose inconsistencies when the dictators don't like unforseen implications 
of rules, and so override them, or they'll interpret the rules in 
non-obvious ways to get people to stop doing things they feel they're 
allowed to do (e.g. people call smacking your kids "beating" them, because 
"beatings are bad" is a rule we agree with).

But I'm a liberal at heart :) I can see that it's very attractive to be 
able to come down hard on people who offend you, but without a lot more 
detail it's probably just going to cause a lot of aggravation and drive 
people to more liberally educated communities.

The community doesn't seem so vast that it needs self-appointed governers, 
but possibly I'm wrong there.

On Monday, 8 September 2014 09:16:23 UTC+2, Benjamin Scherrey wrote:
>
> I thought I made my objections pretty clear in my original email but I'll 
> attempt to be more pedantic about it now. The specific language in the PR 
> 86 is:
>
> "In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a 
> person's ability to participate within them." for both faq.html and 
> index.html. 
>
> I disagree with your assertion "that only makes explicit something that 
> was already the case" because that's a) not how I read it and b) completely 
> impossible to reasonably enforce or expect. I hope that what is occurring is 
> simply a matter of "I don't think it means what you think it means" but 
> what you're really saying here is that all people on this planet must 
> comply with our "code of conduct" at all times in all places or risk being 
> removed from our community - right after, mind you ironically, claiming to 
> support an encourage the participation of all individuals. So what is this 
> code of conduct that we're imposing on all of humanity for the salvation of 
> the world? Fortunately there is, literally, a list:
>
>   
> Violent threats or language directed against another person.
> Sexist, racist, or otherwise discriminatory jokes and 
> language.
> Posting sexually explicit or violent material.
> Posting (or threatening to post) other people's personally 
> identifying information ("doxing").
> Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist 
> terms.
> Unwelcome sexual attention.
> Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.
> Repeated harassment of others. In general, if someone asks you to 
> stop, then stop.
>   
>
> So lets see... anyone who has done any of the following completely outside 
> the context of the Django community or forums is now not welcome to 
> participate:
>
> 1) Ever threatened to or actually spank their children.
> 2) Ever used violence or threat there-of to defend another person from 
> same.
> 3) Ever posted a naked or somewhat explicit picture of themselves or 
> others in a private message to another person or in a forum, such as a 
> photo site like flickr.
> 4) Dox'd a person who is clearly engaging in criminal activity under a 
> pretense of anonymity.
> 5) Ever repeated a joke with sexual or racial content.
> 6) Ever asked someone out or complemented another person on their looks 
> who didn't want it.
> 7) Said it's ok for someone to do any of the above.
> 8) Said or did it twice.
>
> Seriously?!?! This *is* really what you're saying. (BTW - I've done all of 
> the above at one time or another so ban me now.)
>
> Of course some of these (but not all - and it depends a lot about whom) 
> may seem outrageous but they are true to the letter of the code of conduct. 
> I agree these things probably don't belong in the context of a Django 
> discussion or group but I do not believe you can enforce elimination this 
> conduct outside of same. And - then there's just the ability to agree to 
> disagree. One can very credibly argue that many religions or political 
> philosophies are racist, sexist, etc. Are all practicing members of same 
> now banned from participation in Django? This RP language says yes.
>
> Now that I 

Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

[Stephen Burrows]

Turns out there *is* a document detailing enforcement policies and it
*does* involve a range of possible responses to violations.

https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/blob/master/templates/conduct/enforcement.html
https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/enforcement-manual/


On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:30 AM, Stephen Burrows <
stephen.r.burr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ben,
>
> Just to clarify, it sounds like what you're saying is the following: If
> there were a member of the django community who (may this never be the
> case) was harassing members of the django community, but limited their
> harassment to non-django-specific forums, you would want it to not affect
> their participation in django spaces.
>
> Is that correct? If so, is that a blanket statement or does it depend in
> your mind what exactly they've done? For example, what if they had a single
> hateful tweet? What if they had five? What if they orchestrated a
> harassment campaign that drove someone from their home?
>
> Where would you draw the line?
>
> I would also like to point out that the code of conduct doesn't seem to
> contain any statements about how it's enforced. Generally speaking,
> policies like this operate with a certain number of warnings, followed by
> escalation if that doesn't stick - except in extreme cases. It even says
> explicitly *in* the policy:
>
> Don’t forget that it is human to err and blaming each other doesn’t get us
>> anywhere, rather offer to help resolving issues and to help learn from
>> mistakes.
>
>
> I understand that you're concerned about the application of the policy,
> but it seems like you're (perhaps unintentionally) exaggerating the scope
> and purpose of the policy to support your point.
>
> --Stephen
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:16 AM, Benjamin Scherrey 
> wrote:
>
>> I thought I made my objections pretty clear in my original email but I'll
>> attempt to be more pedantic about it now. The specific language in the PR
>> 86 is:
>>
>> "In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a
>> person's ability to participate within them." for both faq.html and
>> index.html.
>>
>> I disagree with your assertion "that only makes explicit something that
>> was already the case" because that's a) not how I read it and b) completely
>> impossible to reasonably enforce or expect. I hope that what is occurring is
>> simply a matter of "I don't think it means what you think it means" but
>> what you're really saying here is that all people on this planet must
>> comply with our "code of conduct" at all times in all places or risk being
>> removed from our community - right after, mind you ironically, claiming to
>> support an encourage the participation of all individuals. So what is this
>> code of conduct that we're imposing on all of humanity for the salvation of
>> the world? Fortunately there is, literally, a list:
>>
>>   
>> Violent threats or language directed against another person.
>> Sexist, racist, or otherwise discriminatory jokes and
>> language.
>> Posting sexually explicit or violent material.
>> Posting (or threatening to post) other people's personally
>> identifying information ("doxing").
>> Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist
>> terms.
>> Unwelcome sexual attention.
>> Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.
>> Repeated harassment of others. In general, if someone asks you to
>> stop, then stop.
>>   
>>
>> So lets see... anyone who has done any of the following completely
>> outside the context of the Django community or forums is now not welcome to
>> participate:
>>
>> 1) Ever threatened to or actually spank their children.
>> 2) Ever used violence or threat there-of to defend another person from
>> same.
>> 3) Ever posted a naked or somewhat explicit picture of themselves or
>> others in a private message to another person or in a forum, such as a
>> photo site like flickr.
>> 4) Dox'd a person who is clearly engaging in criminal activity under a
>> pretense of anonymity.
>> 5) Ever repeated a joke with sexual or racial content.
>> 6) Ever asked someone out or complemented another person on their looks
>> who didn't want it.
>> 7) Said it's ok for someone to do any of the above.
>> 8) Said or did it twice.
>>
>> Seriously?!?! This *is* really what you're saying. (BTW - I've done all
>> of the above at one time or another so ban me now.)
>>
>> Of course some of these (but not all - and it depends a lot about whom)
>> may seem outrageous but they are true to the letter of the code of conduct.
>> I agree these things probably don't belong in the context of a Django
>> discussion or group but I do not believe you can enforce elimination this
>> conduct outside of same. And - then there's just the ability to agree to
>> disagree. One can very credibly argue that many religions or political
>> philosophies are racist, sexist, etc. Are all practicing members of same
>> now 

Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

[Stephen Burrows]

Ben,

Just to clarify, it sounds like what you're saying is the following: If
there were a member of the django community who (may this never be the
case) was harassing members of the django community, but limited their
harassment to non-django-specific forums, you would want it to not affect
their participation in django spaces.

Is that correct? If so, is that a blanket statement or does it depend in
your mind what exactly they've done? For example, what if they had a single
hateful tweet? What if they had five? What if they orchestrated a
harassment campaign that drove someone from their home?

Where would you draw the line?

I would also like to point out that the code of conduct doesn't seem to
contain any statements about how it's enforced. Generally speaking,
policies like this operate with a certain number of warnings, followed by
escalation if that doesn't stick - except in extreme cases. It even says
explicitly *in* the policy:

Don’t forget that it is human to err and blaming each other doesn’t get us
> anywhere, rather offer to help resolving issues and to help learn from
> mistakes.


I understand that you're concerned about the application of the policy, but
it seems like you're (perhaps unintentionally) exaggerating the scope and
purpose of the policy to support your point.

--Stephen


On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 12:16 AM, Benjamin Scherrey 
wrote:

> I thought I made my objections pretty clear in my original email but I'll
> attempt to be more pedantic about it now. The specific language in the PR
> 86 is:
>
> "In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a
> person's ability to participate within them." for both faq.html and
> index.html.
>
> I disagree with your assertion "that only makes explicit something that
> was already the case" because that's a) not how I read it and b) completely
> impossible to reasonably enforce or expect. I hope that what is occurring is
> simply a matter of "I don't think it means what you think it means" but
> what you're really saying here is that all people on this planet must
> comply with our "code of conduct" at all times in all places or risk being
> removed from our community - right after, mind you ironically, claiming to
> support an encourage the participation of all individuals. So what is this
> code of conduct that we're imposing on all of humanity for the salvation of
> the world? Fortunately there is, literally, a list:
>
>   
> Violent threats or language directed against another person.
> Sexist, racist, or otherwise discriminatory jokes and
> language.
> Posting sexually explicit or violent material.
> Posting (or threatening to post) other people's personally
> identifying information ("doxing").
> Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist
> terms.
> Unwelcome sexual attention.
> Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.
> Repeated harassment of others. In general, if someone asks you to
> stop, then stop.
>   
>
> So lets see... anyone who has done any of the following completely outside
> the context of the Django community or forums is now not welcome to
> participate:
>
> 1) Ever threatened to or actually spank their children.
> 2) Ever used violence or threat there-of to defend another person from
> same.
> 3) Ever posted a naked or somewhat explicit picture of themselves or
> others in a private message to another person or in a forum, such as a
> photo site like flickr.
> 4) Dox'd a person who is clearly engaging in criminal activity under a
> pretense of anonymity.
> 5) Ever repeated a joke with sexual or racial content.
> 6) Ever asked someone out or complemented another person on their looks
> who didn't want it.
> 7) Said it's ok for someone to do any of the above.
> 8) Said or did it twice.
>
> Seriously?!?! This *is* really what you're saying. (BTW - I've done all of
> the above at one time or another so ban me now.)
>
> Of course some of these (but not all - and it depends a lot about whom)
> may seem outrageous but they are true to the letter of the code of conduct.
> I agree these things probably don't belong in the context of a Django
> discussion or group but I do not believe you can enforce elimination this
> conduct outside of same. And - then there's just the ability to agree to
> disagree. One can very credibly argue that many religions or political
> philosophies are racist, sexist, etc. Are all practicing members of same
> now banned from participation in Django? This RP language says yes.
>
> Now that I have, again, been responsive to your dismissal of my
> objections, please do me the courtesy of re-reading my original (and this)
> email and attempt to be responsive to it's content.
>
> thank you,
>
>   -- Ben Scherrey
>
> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 3:04 AM, Daniele Procida  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014, Benjamin Scherrey  wrote:
>>
>> >Nothing you've written 

Re: Two proposals for the Django Code of Conduct.

[Benjamin Scherrey]

I thought I made my objections pretty clear in my original email but I'll
attempt to be more pedantic about it now. The specific language in the PR
86 is:

"In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a
person's ability to participate within them." for both faq.html and
index.html.

I disagree with your assertion "that only makes explicit something that was
already the case" because that's a) not how I read it and b) completely
impossible to reasonably enforce or expect. I hope that what is occurring is
simply a matter of "I don't think it means what you think it means" but
what you're really saying here is that all people on this planet must
comply with our "code of conduct" at all times in all places or risk being
removed from our community - right after, mind you ironically, claiming to
support an encourage the participation of all individuals. So what is this
code of conduct that we're imposing on all of humanity for the salvation of
the world? Fortunately there is, literally, a list:

  
Violent threats or language directed against another person.
Sexist, racist, or otherwise discriminatory jokes and language.
Posting sexually explicit or violent material.
Posting (or threatening to post) other people's personally
identifying information ("doxing").
Personal insults, especially those using racist or sexist
terms.
Unwelcome sexual attention.
Advocating for, or encouraging, any of the above behavior.
Repeated harassment of others. In general, if someone asks you to
stop, then stop.
  

So lets see... anyone who has done any of the following completely outside
the context of the Django community or forums is now not welcome to
participate:

1) Ever threatened to or actually spank their children.
2) Ever used violence or threat there-of to defend another person from same.
3) Ever posted a naked or somewhat explicit picture of themselves or others
in a private message to another person or in a forum, such as a photo site
like flickr.
4) Dox'd a person who is clearly engaging in criminal activity under a
pretense of anonymity.
5) Ever repeated a joke with sexual or racial content.
6) Ever asked someone out or complemented another person on their looks who
didn't want it.
7) Said it's ok for someone to do any of the above.
8) Said or did it twice.

Seriously?!?! This *is* really what you're saying. (BTW - I've done all of
the above at one time or another so ban me now.)

Of course some of these (but not all - and it depends a lot about whom) may
seem outrageous but they are true to the letter of the code of conduct. I
agree these things probably don't belong in the context of a Django
discussion or group but I do not believe you can enforce elimination this
conduct outside of same. And - then there's just the ability to agree to
disagree. One can very credibly argue that many religions or political
philosophies are racist, sexist, etc. Are all practicing members of same
now banned from participation in Django? This RP language says yes.

Now that I have, again, been responsive to your dismissal of my objections,
please do me the courtesy of re-reading my original (and this) email and
attempt to be responsive to it's content.

thank you,

  -- Ben Scherrey

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 3:04 AM, Daniele Procida  wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014, Benjamin Scherrey  wrote:
>
> >Nothing you've written disagrees with what I said, nor do you address
> >the core concern I bring up about the "change of substance" which is chock
> >full of opportunities for the law of unintended consequences to come up
> and
> >bite us all.
>
> What in your opinion is (or was) the "change of substance" in <
> https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com/pull/86>?
>
> I didn't see any but a very minor one, that only makes explicit something
> that was already the case.
>
> >Re-reading the existing documents, I find that this language
> >introduces an entirely different tone to the language of these policies
> >and, again, implies some dangerous precedents beyond what the writers may
> >intend.
>
> Which language in pull request 86?
>
> Daniele
>
> --
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> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



-- 
Chief Systems Architect Proteus Technologies 
Chief Fan Biggest Fan Productions 
Personal blog where I am not your demographic

Re: [RFC] Python 3 and MySQL

[Claude Paroz]

Le lundi 8 septembre 2014 08:33:39 UTC+2, Naoki INADA a écrit :
>
>
> On Monday, September 8, 2014 2:04:26 PM UTC+9, Naoki INADA wrote:
>>
>> > 
>> > Naoki, 
>> > 
>> > Are you aware of performance benchmarks comparing your MySQLdb1 fork 
>> and 
>> > mysql-connector-python? 
>>
>
> I've posted quick benchmark:
> https://github.com/methane/mysql-driver-benchmarks
>
> Most heavy part of MySQL Driver is parsing packet.
> There are (number of columsn) descripter packet and (number of columns * 
> number of rows) result packet in query response.
>
> On PyPy, packet parsing is faster after JIT warmup.
> MySQL-Connector/Python reads from socket packet by packed.  It makes many 
> system call.
> PyMySQL uses buffering for faster receiving.
>

Great, 8-9x difference in favor of the C implementation (which might be 
expected). That's a clear sign for me that we should continue using 
primarily the C version. That doesn't mean we shouldn't make efforts to 
support at least one Python-only driver (as asked in #12500).

> About your fork, do you plan to maintain it in the middle/long term? I 
> saw 
> > that issues were not enabled on your Github repo. Is it on purpose? 
> What's 
> > the plan about bug tracking of your fork? 
> > 
>
> Thanks for pointing it out.  I've enabled github issue. 
>
> I'll maintain mysqlclient-python until MySQLdb1 development is restarted. 
> Since I hope MySQLdb1 and mysqlclient-python merged someday (like 
> setuptools and distribute were merged), 
> I don't want to implement new feature. 
> 'maintain' means bugfix, support new Python, new libmysqlclient and 
> new OS, etc... 
>

That makes sense.
Tim, Florian, would it be possible to switch to that fork on the CI server 
(both for Python 2 and 3) for MySQL?
Then of course, if all goes well, we would need to update our documentation.

Claude 

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Re: [RFC] Python 3 and MySQL

[Naoki INADA]

On Monday, September 8, 2014 2:04:26 PM UTC+9, Naoki INADA wrote:
>
> > 
> > Naoki, 
> > 
> > Are you aware of performance benchmarks comparing your MySQLdb1 fork and 
> > mysql-connector-python? 
>
> I'll show you some numbers.  But I'm not have time for now. 
>

I've posted quick benchmark:
https://github.com/methane/mysql-driver-benchmarks

Most heavy part of MySQL Driver is parsing packet.
There are (number of columsn) descripter packet and (number of columns * 
number of rows) result packet in query response.

On PyPy, packet parsing is faster after JIT warmup.
MySQL-Connector/Python reads from socket packet by packed.  It makes many 
system call.
PyMySQL uses buffering for faster receiving.

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