Re: Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-28 Thread Mateusz Harasymczuk 
Me too.
+ 1

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Re: Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-23 Thread David Malcolm 
On Fri, 2011-12-23 at 08:36 -0800, Vinay Sajip wrote:
> On Dec 23, 3:23 pm, Jannis Leidel  wrote:
> >
> > I would argue that Jaunty being a non-LTS release shouldn't be considered 
> > as a target platform we want to support. OTOH the LTS release Ubuntu Lucid 
> > (10.04) ships Python 2.6.5, so we're good.
> 
> Sure, Jaunty was just an example. I'm not sure what versions of 2.6
> are on different releases of RHEL, CentOS etc.

FWIW, RHEL 6.0 shipped with 2.6.5, and we rebased to 2.6.6 in RHEL 6.1:
  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=627301
  http://rhn.redhat.com/errata/RHSA-2011-0554.html

Hope this is helpful
Dave

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Re: Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-23 Thread Nan 

FWIW, the previous version of Mac OS X (10.6) shipped with 2.6.1.

On Dec 23, 5:49 am, Vinay Sajip  wrote:
> On Dec 10, 4:56 pm, Adrian Holovaty  wrote:
>
> > I think both of these proposals are great -- start merging the Python
> > 3 work right after we release 1.4, anddropsupport for Python2.5in
> > trunk after 1.4 is released.
>
> Before we do this, another decision is required - which release of 2.6
> is the minimum Django should support? There was a change which
> occurred with 2.6.5 (IIRC) to allow Unicode in kwargs keys (earlier
> versions would raise an exception).
>
> If we use "from __future__ import unicode_literals" to avoid using u()
> and b(), then a lot of Django code will be affected. Supporting 2.6->2.6.4 
> will require cleaning kwargs, and to avoid this one would need
>
> to state that Django will only support 2.6.5 onwards. Of course, that
> might affect quite a lot of users with 2.6 system Pythons which are <
> 2.6.5 (e.g. on Ubuntu Jaunty the system Python is 2.6.2).
>
> Regards,
>
> Vinay Sajip

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Re: Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-23 Thread Vinay Sajip 

On Dec 23, 3:23 pm, Jannis Leidel  wrote:
>
> I would argue that Jaunty being a non-LTS release shouldn't be considered as 
> a target platform we want to support. OTOH the LTS release Ubuntu Lucid 
> (10.04) ships Python 2.6.5, so we're good.

Sure, Jaunty was just an example. I'm not sure what versions of 2.6
are on different releases of RHEL, CentOS etc.

Regards,

Vinay Sajip

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Re: Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-23 Thread Jannis Leidel 

On 23.12.2011, at 11:49, Vinay Sajip wrote:

> 
> On Dec 10, 4:56 pm, Adrian Holovaty  wrote:
> 
>> I think both of these proposals are great -- start merging the Python
>> 3 work right after we release 1.4, anddropsupport for Python2.5in
>> trunk after 1.4 is released.
> 
> Before we do this, another decision is required - which release of 2.6
> is the minimum Django should support? There was a change which
> occurred with 2.6.5 (IIRC) to allow Unicode in kwargs keys (earlier
> versions would raise an exception).
> 
> If we use "from __future__ import unicode_literals" to avoid using u()
> and b(), then a lot of Django code will be affected. Supporting 2.6-
>> 2.6.4 will require cleaning kwargs, and to avoid this one would need
> to state that Django will only support 2.6.5 onwards. Of course, that
> might affect quite a lot of users with 2.6 system Pythons which are <
> 2.6.5 (e.g. on Ubuntu Jaunty the system Python is 2.6.2).

I would argue that Jaunty being a non-LTS release shouldn't be considered as a 
target platform we want to support. OTOH the LTS release Ubuntu Lucid (10.04) 
ships Python 2.6.5, so we're good.

Jannis

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Re: Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-23 Thread David Malcolm 
On Mon, 2011-12-12 at 00:46 -0600, Joseph Tennies wrote:
> While I agree it should be dropped, I was discussing this with the
> Twisted guys. They pointed out that it will actually receive security
> updates through 2013. This is thanks to Ubuntu 8.10 LTS. I'm sure
> Canonical could tap into someone like Barry to fix it if serious
> enough.

In a similar vein, I'm actually still doing security fixes for Python
2.2 for some RHEL customers, and for 2.3 and 2.4 for RHEL 4 and 5 (we
never shipped 2.5 in RHEL; we're at 2.6.6 in RHEL 6)

(But I don't want to stand in the way of Python 3 support, and 2.6 is
probably the minimum sane version of 2.* to handle a dual 2/3 codebase)

Dave

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Re: Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-23 Thread Vinay Sajip 

On Dec 10, 4:56 pm, Adrian Holovaty  wrote:

> I think both of these proposals are great -- start merging the Python
> 3 work right after we release 1.4, anddropsupport for Python2.5in
> trunk after 1.4 is released.

Before we do this, another decision is required - which release of 2.6
is the minimum Django should support? There was a change which
occurred with 2.6.5 (IIRC) to allow Unicode in kwargs keys (earlier
versions would raise an exception).

If we use "from __future__ import unicode_literals" to avoid using u()
and b(), then a lot of Django code will be affected. Supporting 2.6-
>2.6.4 will require cleaning kwargs, and to avoid this one would need
to state that Django will only support 2.6.5 onwards. Of course, that
might affect quite a lot of users with 2.6 system Pythons which are <
2.6.5 (e.g. on Ubuntu Jaunty the system Python is 2.6.2).

Regards,

Vinay Sajip

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Re: Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-11 Thread Joseph Tennies 
While I agree it should be dropped, I was discussing this with the Twisted guys. They pointed out that it will actually receive security updates through 2013. This is thanks to Ubuntu 8.10 LTS. I'm sure Canonical could tap into someone like Barry to fix it if serious enough.-- Sent from my HP TouchPadOn Dec 11, 2011 11:31 PM, Paul McMillan  wrote: > 2.5 is EOL and no longer receiving security patches even, it is
> *irresponsible* of us to support it (I claim).  ANyways +1

This. +1 from me. We do everything else in our power to encourage
secure behavior from our users, this is yet another appropriate step.

-Paul

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Re: Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-11 Thread Paul McMillan 
> 2.5 is EOL and no longer receiving security patches even, it is
> *irresponsible* of us to support it (I claim).  ANyways +1

This. +1 from me. We do everything else in our power to encourage
secure behavior from our users, this is yet another appropriate step.

-Paul

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Re: Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-10 Thread Kok Hoor (gmail) 
+1

Regards,
Kok HOOR

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 11, 2011, at 10:06 AM, Adrian Holovaty  wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 6:37 PM, Alex Gaynor  wrote:
>> 2.5 is EOL and no longer receiving security patches even, it is
>> *irresponsible* of us to support it (I claim).  ANyways +1
> 
> This is a very good reason I hadn't though of.
> 
> Anyway, looks like this is a plan! Excellent.
> 
> Adrian
> 
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Re: Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-10 Thread Adrian Holovaty 
On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 6:37 PM, Alex Gaynor  wrote:
> 2.5 is EOL and no longer receiving security patches even, it is
> *irresponsible* of us to support it (I claim).  ANyways +1

This is a very good reason I hadn't though of.

Anyway, looks like this is a plan! Excellent.

Adrian

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Re: Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-10 Thread Markus Gattol 
Wasn't the reason why Django 1.4 should still support Python 2.5 because of 
RHEL 5? If so, RHEL 5 never had official Python 2.5 support but only 
supported Python 2.4. RHEL 6 does not support 2.5 either, its Python 
version is 2.6. What is the reason that Django 1.4 needs to support Python 
2.5?

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Re: Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-10 Thread Alex Gaynor 
On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Paul Egges  wrote:

> +1
>
> I thought there was an implicit understanding that only 3 versions of
> Python would be supported at any given time.  If so it makes sense to drop
> support for 2.4 when we add 3.x.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 9:22 AM, Jannis Leidel  wrote:
>
>> > I propose that we attempt to merge the py3k work after the release
>> > of 1.4, rather than let it go stale and lose the good work done so far,
>> > and also drop support for Python 2.5 for Django 1.5.
>>
>> +1
>>
>> I think dropping Python 2.5 in the process of porting Django to Python
>> 3.X are reasonable goals. That said, even without the Py3k work going so
>> well I would support dropping Python 2.5 in the next major version.
>>
>> Jannis
>>
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2.5 is EOL and no longer receiving security patches even, it is
*irresponsible* of us to support it (I claim).  ANyways +1

Alex

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say it." -- Evelyn Beatrice Hall (summarizing Voltaire)
"The people's good is the highest law." -- Cicero

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Re: Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-10 Thread Russell Keith-Magee 
On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 1:32 AM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss  wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Adrian Holovaty  wrote:
>> I think both of these proposals are great -- start merging the Python
>> 3 work right after we release 1.4, and drop support for Python 2.5 in
>> trunk after 1.4 is released.
>
> I totally agree.

Same here. +1.

Russ %-)

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Re: Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-10 Thread Jacob Kaplan-Moss 
On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Adrian Holovaty  wrote:
> I think both of these proposals are great -- start merging the Python
> 3 work right after we release 1.4, and drop support for Python 2.5 in
> trunk after 1.4 is released.

I totally agree.

Jacob

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Re: Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-10 Thread Adrian Holovaty 
On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 8:36 AM, Luke Plant  wrote:
> So, I propose that we attempt to merge the py3k work after the release
> of 1.4, rather than let it go stale and lose the good work done so far,
> and also drop support for Python 2.5 for Django 1.5.

I think both of these proposals are great -- start merging the Python
3 work right after we release 1.4, and drop support for Python 2.5 in
trunk after 1.4 is released.

Thanks for the suggestion, Luke.

Adrian

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Re: Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-10 Thread Jannis Leidel 
> I propose that we attempt to merge the py3k work after the release
> of 1.4, rather than let it go stale and lose the good work done so far,
> and also drop support for Python 2.5 for Django 1.5.

+1

I think dropping Python 2.5 in the process of porting Django to Python 3.X are 
reasonable goals. That said, even without the Py3k work going so well I would 
support dropping Python 2.5 in the next major version.

Jannis

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Proposal: drop Python 2.5 support in Django 1.5

2011-12-10 Thread Luke Plant 
Hi all,

In other threads we've discussed the problem of Python 2/3 compatibility
where we need to catch exceptions and need the exception object itself.
This leads to ugliness and possible poor performance on PyPy.

However, we could get around it completely if we drop Python 2.5
support, since the 'except Exception as e' syntax is valid from Python
2.6. [1]

Other things I've read recently suggest life will be made much easier
for out Python 3 work if we drop Python 2.5 support [2].

So, I propose that we attempt to merge the py3k work after the release
of 1.4, rather than let it go stale and lose the good work done so far,
and also drop support for Python 2.5 for Django 1.5.

For reference, here are release dates so far, and Python versions, with
my proposal sketched in:


Django releases
---
Django 1.0  - September 3, 2008
Django 1.1  - July 29, 2009
Django 1.2  - May 17,  2010
Django 1.3  - March 23,2011
Django 1.4  - early 2012 ?
Django 1.5  - late 2012 ??


Python releases  Django dropped support
---  --
Python 2.3 - July 29,  2003  in 1.2 released May 2010
Python 2.4 - November 30,  2004  in 1.4 released early 2012 (?)
Python 2.5 - September 19, 2006  in 1.5 released late 2012 (?)


So, we dropped Python 2.3 support 6 years 10 months after it was
released. We will be dropping 2.4 support after approx 7 years 3 months,
and we would be dropping Python 2.5 support after approx 6 years 3
months. So, this would be a slight squeeze compared to Python 2.3, and a
bigger squeeze compared to 2.4.

But given that I think a push to Python 3 is the right thing to do, this
doesn't seem like an extreme programme at all. We *should* be squeezing
the programme in terms of migrating from 2.x, not expanding it. It would
be nice to be able to announce this when we release 1.4, if we agree on it.

In the past we have talked about dropping a Python version with each
Django release. The other thing to consider is support by the major
vendors. I know very little about this side, but from what I've gleaned,
RHEL5 goes into long term support mode in 2012 Q1 (it had Python 2.4,
which we already dropped), and RHEL6 is already out, and has Python 2.6.

Regards,

Luke


[1] http://docs.python.org/whatsnew/2.6.html
[2] http://goo.gl/qNfKN

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