Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
Eric wrote: > Well, you can teach someone to fish without telling them to "get an > f'n fishing pole". > > "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and for the rest of his life he will bore you with stories about the one that got away". regards Steve --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
Well, you can teach someone to fish without telling them to "get an f'n fishing pole". On Jul 1, 5:25 am, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 26-Jun-08, at 7:51 PM, Jeremy Dunck wrote: > > >> Then, I tried helping people the way he does for a mere fraction of > >> the time he does. Answering the same 5 questions 20 times a day > >> (ok, I > >> did it maybe twice) would drive anyone insane. > > > +1 > > +1 > > > > > Yes, it'd be nice if Magus were a bit more polite, but I'd say his > > patience and dedication are legend. > > why should he be more polite? He follows the policy of 'teaching to > fish' rather than spoonfeeding. I have several times got flamed by > him for getting impatient and giving the answer. I would say that he > is the single most important person in the channel. He has even taken > the trouble of writing a script whereby he can generate almost > instantaneous references to the *relevant* docs. It is easy to give > direct answers - difficult, irritating and time consuming to 'teach > to fish'. Let him be as rude as he wants, as long as he is there. > > > > -- > > regards > kghttp://lawgon.livejournal.comhttp://nrcfosshelpline.in/code/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 5:25 PM, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Let him be as rude as he wants, as long as he is there. Lets stop this idea before it grows legs. One of the strengths of Django is the community, and one of the reasons the community is strong is because it is approachable for newcomers. There's no problem with being blunt or brusque, but straight out rudeness is not appropriate, and it will not be tolerated. Yours, Russ Magee %-) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > actually this debate belongs on django-users (which is why I put in > my 2 paise) - I think if taken there we can get a real measure of the > pros of his help against the cons of his curtness at times (I > wouldn't call it being rude) Or we could all just stop trying to deal publicly with what should be a private issue. -Gul --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
On 01-Jul-08, at 10:04 PM, Tom Tobin wrote: > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 4:25 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> why should he be more polite? He follows the policy of 'teaching to >> fish' rather than spoonfeeding. I have several times got flamed by >> him for getting impatient and giving the answer. I would say that he >> is the single most important person in the channel. He has even taken >> the trouble of writing a script whereby he can generate almost >> instantaneous references to the *relevant* docs. It is easy to give >> direct answers - difficult, irritating and time consuming to 'teach >> to fish'. Let him be as rude as he wants, as long as he is there. > > Stepping back for a moment from the way I approached this issue — > which I readily admit was the wrong way to do it, and which I > apologize to the community for — and the parties in question, I'm > concerned with the general sentiment expressed in this thread. It is > quite understandable to be grateful to someone for performing a > difficult task; it's another thing to allow that gratitude to mute > necessary criticism. I think there's room in our community for both > charity *and* civility; if we can improve, we *should* improve. actually this debate belongs on django-users (which is why I put in my 2 paise) - I think if taken there we can get a real measure of the pros of his help against the cons of his curtness at times (I wouldn't call it being rude) -- regards kg http://lawgon.livejournal.com http://nrcfosshelpline.in/code/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
I'll agree Magus is harsh, but he's also helpful, and this isn't the place to discuss this :) On Jul 1, 11:40 am, "Rajeev J Sebastian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > +1 to Tom, though magus > > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 7:34 PM, Tom Tobin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 4:25 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> why should he be more polite? He follows the policy of 'teaching to > >> fish' rather than spoonfeeding. I have several times got flamed by > >> him for getting impatient and giving the answer. I would say that he > >> is the single most important person in the channel. He has even taken > >> the trouble of writing a script whereby he can generate almost > >> instantaneous references to the *relevant* docs. It is easy to give > >> direct answers - difficult, irritating and time consuming to 'teach > >> to fish'. Let him be as rude as he wants, as long as he is there. > > > Stepping back for a moment from the way I approached this issue — > > which I readily admit was the wrong way to do it, and which I > > apologize to the community for — and the parties in question, I'm > > concerned with the general sentiment expressed in this thread. It is > > quite understandable to be grateful to someone for performing a > > difficult task; it's another thing to allow that gratitude to mute > > necessary criticism. I think there's room in our community for both > > charity *and* civility; if we can improve, we *should* improve. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
+1 to Tom, though magus On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 7:34 PM, Tom Tobin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 4:25 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> why should he be more polite? He follows the policy of 'teaching to >> fish' rather than spoonfeeding. I have several times got flamed by >> him for getting impatient and giving the answer. I would say that he >> is the single most important person in the channel. He has even taken >> the trouble of writing a script whereby he can generate almost >> instantaneous references to the *relevant* docs. It is easy to give >> direct answers - difficult, irritating and time consuming to 'teach >> to fish'. Let him be as rude as he wants, as long as he is there. > > Stepping back for a moment from the way I approached this issue — > which I readily admit was the wrong way to do it, and which I > apologize to the community for — and the parties in question, I'm > concerned with the general sentiment expressed in this thread. It is > quite understandable to be grateful to someone for performing a > difficult task; it's another thing to allow that gratitude to mute > necessary criticism. I think there's room in our community for both > charity *and* civility; if we can improve, we *should* improve. > > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 4:25 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > why should he be more polite? He follows the policy of 'teaching to > fish' rather than spoonfeeding. I have several times got flamed by > him for getting impatient and giving the answer. I would say that he > is the single most important person in the channel. He has even taken > the trouble of writing a script whereby he can generate almost > instantaneous references to the *relevant* docs. It is easy to give > direct answers - difficult, irritating and time consuming to 'teach > to fish'. Let him be as rude as he wants, as long as he is there. Stepping back for a moment from the way I approached this issue — which I readily admit was the wrong way to do it, and which I apologize to the community for — and the parties in question, I'm concerned with the general sentiment expressed in this thread. It is quite understandable to be grateful to someone for performing a difficult task; it's another thing to allow that gratitude to mute necessary criticism. I think there's room in our community for both charity *and* civility; if we can improve, we *should* improve. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
On 26-Jun-08, at 7:51 PM, Jeremy Dunck wrote: >> Then, I tried helping people the way he does for a mere fraction of >> the time he does. Answering the same 5 questions 20 times a day >> (ok, I >> did it maybe twice) would drive anyone insane. > > +1 +1 > > Yes, it'd be nice if Magus were a bit more polite, but I'd say his > patience and dedication are legend. why should he be more polite? He follows the policy of 'teaching to fish' rather than spoonfeeding. I have several times got flamed by him for getting impatient and giving the answer. I would say that he is the single most important person in the channel. He has even taken the trouble of writing a script whereby he can generate almost instantaneous references to the *relevant* docs. It is easy to give direct answers - difficult, irritating and time consuming to 'teach to fish'. Let him be as rude as he wants, as long as he is there. > -- regards kg http://lawgon.livejournal.com http://nrcfosshelpline.in/code/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
On Jun 25, 11:48 pm, "Jacob Kaplan-Moss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Two things: > > > I don't know the background of whether Tom tried these things or not. > Again, I don't care to ague about it. Let's not make this happen again > in the future, OK? > > Please, folks, we're all friends here. Let's not have a flamewar if at > all possible, mmmkay? I think that it's very telling that there have been so few flare ups in the community to date (sadly the change in logger bots has deleted my coining of the word 'Djihad'). Magus- has a never ending supply of patience and for the majority of time puts it to good use. Having run out of time/energy myself trying to help out a little in the early days I think that his efforts should be rewarded. I found things went a lot more smoothly if I pretended he was my German friend. YMMV. Felix --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Jun 25, 2008, at 23:47, James Bennett wrote: > 3. As someone who hangs out in the channel pretty much 24/7 I can > vouch for him being helpful. An instructive example is to run "grep > thanks #django.log | grep -c Magus", and then compare to other > usernames. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ % grep -i 'thank' ./irclogs/*/freenode/\#django.log| grep -ic 'magus' 3237 Neat. Note: That doesn't include "thx", "ty" and all other variants. It also misses every implicit reference to Magus-. Note^2: That does include multi-thanks, like "Thanks Magus- and foo.", so it's not like he's the only one to help. Ludvig "toxik" Ericson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) iEYEARECAAYFAkhjsgcACgkQXnZ94Kd6KadGAgCgjdH6oC4UpOlIVTwMZemB2jxz ZrEAnAxmD1zCrEilQ6nkPu5rX7q9vQ/u =DQIe -END PGP SIGNATURE- --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 5:10 PM, Alex Ezell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'd like to offer one more perspective. Magus- (Collin) was one of the > first folks to help me in the IRC channel. And, initially, I did think > to myself "well, that's a little smug." > > Then, I tried helping people the way he does for a mere fraction of > the time he does. Answering the same 5 questions 20 times a day (ok, I > did it maybe twice) would drive anyone insane. +1 Yes, it'd be nice if Magus were a bit more polite, but I'd say his patience and dedication are legend. If only IRC had a way to communicate this mixture of admiration and critique... --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Calling someone else out publically is a move of last resort, and one > that should be avoided at all costs. ::sigh:: I'm sorry; after this and another spat on the ChiPy list, I think I'm not very good at the whole tactful-resolution thing. :-( I'll try starting from scratch (starting with contacting Collin directly) in a few days. Meh. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
I'd like to offer one more perspective. Magus- (Collin) was one of the first folks to help me in the IRC channel. And, initially, I did think to myself "well, that's a little smug." Then, I tried helping people the way he does for a mere fraction of the time he does. Answering the same 5 questions 20 times a day (ok, I did it maybe twice) would drive anyone insane. If anything, his insistence on the documentation and my reading of it, eventually made me do just that. I've been all the better for it. So, walk a mile in his shoes, and see if your patience isn't, at least, slightly altered. I couldn't stand it for 30 minutes. I applaud his help and dedication while acknowledging Jacob's point about decorum across the project. /alex On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Jacob Kaplan-Moss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Two things: > > * Basic decorum is something that we've always treasured in the Django > community. This applies to the IRC channel. If you can't be polite > here, there, or anywhere in our community please try to keep your > mouth shut. > > I don't particularly care to argue about whether Magus crossed any > lines or not; I trust him to not take this callout *too* personally, > and I trust that we can all try to strike a kinder tone in IRC in the > future. > > * Basic decorum *also* dictates that if you have a personal problem > with someone you try to solve it with them, privately. > > Talking to me or another maintainer -- again, privately -- is the second step. > > Calling someone else out publically is a move of last resort, and one > that should be avoided at all costs. > > I don't know the background of whether Tom tried these things or not. > Again, I don't care to ague about it. Let's not make this happen again > in the future, OK? > > Please, folks, we're all friends here. Let's not have a flamewar if at > all possible, mmmkay? > > Jacob > > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
Two things: * Basic decorum is something that we've always treasured in the Django community. This applies to the IRC channel. If you can't be polite here, there, or anywhere in our community please try to keep your mouth shut. I don't particularly care to argue about whether Magus crossed any lines or not; I trust him to not take this callout *too* personally, and I trust that we can all try to strike a kinder tone in IRC in the future. * Basic decorum *also* dictates that if you have a personal problem with someone you try to solve it with them, privately. Talking to me or another maintainer -- again, privately -- is the second step. Calling someone else out publically is a move of last resort, and one that should be avoided at all costs. I don't know the background of whether Tom tried these things or not. Again, I don't care to ague about it. Let's not make this happen again in the future, OK? Please, folks, we're all friends here. Let's not have a flamewar if at all possible, mmmkay? Jacob --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 4:21 PM, Tom Tobin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Specifically, I'd like you to note interactions with user "Magus-" > (with trailing dash). Four points: 1. His name is Collin. 2. He's one of the channel ops. 3. As someone who hangs out in the channel pretty much 24/7 I can vouch for him being helpful. An instructive example is to run "grep thanks #django.log | grep -c Magus", and then compare to other usernames. 4. Tom, you worked at the next desk over from me for how long, and you think Collin is nasty? ;) -- "Bureaucrat Conrad, you are technically correct -- the best kind of correct." --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
"Has to go". Heh. While I certainly agree he doesn't exactly come across as nice, I wouldn't call him abusive. He's terse and a bit impatient but generally friendly. He's an Op and I've never seen him ban people senselessly. I log in on weekends and often see him in the room walking people through the same 5 newbie stumbling blocks--he puts more volunteer hours in on IRC than most of us combined. It really comes down to cost/benefit of your dislike for his demeanor versus his assistance as a developer--I know my decision. -S On Jun 25, 5:21 pm, "Tom Tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I don't spend much time in #django on Freenode, but for a moment, I'd > like you to check the logs of that channel. > > http://oebfare.com/logger/django/ > > Specifically, I'd like you to note interactions with user "Magus-" > (with trailing dash). > > I think we have a representation problem on our hands. If this guy is > the first person most users encounter, they're going to have a *very* > different view of the Django community than I consider ideal. I've > heard from several individuals that they've migrated from Ruby on > Rails *specifically because* our community was nicer; "Magus-" > threatens that. > > I've had an awful experience speaking with Magus; one of my co-workers > at The Onion has, as well. But don't take my word for it; check those > logs. > > This guy has to go. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
Ha, Magus is great. He's helped so many people, it's mind boggling. Rather than ban him, I'd say he should get donations. The problem on every IRC channel or email list is that often people don't actually listen to the advice given to them, or read the documentation pointed out to them. Magus may get a little short, but he's hardly unjustified from what I've seen. Sure, some others have more patience and are gentler, but no one on #django offers the sheer volume, correctness and depth of help that Magus does. I wonder though, what exactly do you propose? If Magus wants to be on #django, he'll be there no matter what anyone does. -Justin On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 2:21 PM, Tom Tobin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I don't spend much time in #django on Freenode, but for a moment, I'd > like you to check the logs of that channel. > > http://oebfare.com/logger/django/ > > Specifically, I'd like you to note interactions with user "Magus-" > (with trailing dash). > > I think we have a representation problem on our hands. If this guy is > the first person most users encounter, they're going to have a *very* > different view of the Django community than I consider ideal. I've > heard from several individuals that they've migrated from Ruby on > Rails *specifically because* our community was nicer; "Magus-" > threatens that. > > I've had an awful experience speaking with Magus; one of my co-workers > at The Onion has, as well. But don't take my word for it; check those > logs. > > This guy has to go. > > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Community representation, or, #django user "Magus-" needs to go far away
It's too bad you had a negative experience with someone in the IRC channel. However, aside from how abrasive he can be from time to time, he's usually the only one to answer questions in there. I'd guess he does a majority of the help in there (no offense to the others that do a good deal of helping users in the channel). To lose him from the channel would probably be a huge blow. --Brian Jackson On Wednesday 25 June 2008 4:21:20 pm Tom Tobin wrote: > I don't spend much time in #django on Freenode, but for a moment, I'd > like you to check the logs of that channel. > > http://oebfare.com/logger/django/ > > Specifically, I'd like you to note interactions with user "Magus-" > (with trailing dash). > > I think we have a representation problem on our hands. If this guy is > the first person most users encounter, they're going to have a *very* > different view of the Django community than I consider ideal. I've > heard from several individuals that they've migrated from Ruby on > Rails *specifically because* our community was nicer; "Magus-" > threatens that. > > I've had an awful experience speaking with Magus; one of my co-workers > at The Onion has, as well. But don't take my word for it; check those > logs. > > This guy has to go. > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django developers" group. To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
