Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
I do not know if a decision has been made on the ajax framework in 1.0. Anyone knows some message about this. By the way, how about the Eclipse + pydev comparing with the Wing IDE? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
> thread when I first came to Django. In hindsight, it was pure > inability to write the javascript myself, and reluctance to properly > learn javascript. In the end I've seen that writing javascript > manually results in much cleaner html output, using less code and it > sometimes just performs better. On top of that, switching to another > javascript has no effect whatsoever on your python/django code. The pure inability to write JavaScript argument is no trivial matter. JavaScript for all of it's toy-like qualities can be maddeningly complex and frustrating. This is an open source project and many of the people who develop django apps share their work. It's a beautiful thing. I've learned more poking around people's code then I have from ... That's why, IMO, it's good to have a standardized javascript library (if not necessarily official). People want to write and share apps. And sharing them with a community that knows what to do with them only makes them more powerful. If people shared their AJAX integrated code I'm sure it would save me _lots_ of time. Both in figuring out how to do things and drop-in code. So here's what it would probably mean to me: * Official Documentation - This is the first place I look for how to do things. * Open source apps that I read to learn how to do things/Cookbook pages for all sorts of wacky stuff * Drop in apps that extend functionality and make my site more useful * Not having to chose a damn library myself (I use mochikit, but I feel like it's dying on the vine) * A chance to co-opt a JavaScript community/not lose a JavaScript community to some other project * A good marketing opportunity - just being able to put a check mark next to AJAX integration, however meaningless is useful. Those who ignore marketing do so at their own detriment. * More cool apps written in django. Hey, the apps sell the framework. * Share knowledge! I guess my point boils down to tools create possibilities. Possibilities are impossible to fully articulate ahead of time. I think I've thrown out some decent ones, but there are doubtless many more. The point is that people learn, use, and adapt things in ways that aren't always canonized. By embracing a tool, say a hammer, you're not just going to hammer nails. You're going to carry around a hammer and if something comes up that I can use my hammer for, you're going to use it. The django developers have the ability to control the debate by picking a library. The fact that they don't want to may be perfectly valid. (I haven't read any of the pro and con other than this thread.) But that doesn't mean the community can't rally around a particular project. The fact of the matter is that de facto standards often bubble up to become official standards. This is the risk that the django devs run by not picking the library; one will be picked for them. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
pcad, there's some good points there, and maybe many of us could share more code showing how we've integrated whatever JS toolkit with Django. But I like the agnostic stand. They give the tools to connect easily. HOW you connect is up to you. I like jQuery. You like mochikit. Others like YUI, or Prototype, or Dojo. Who's right? Everybody. Nobody. It depends. On Apr 12, 9:02 am, "pcad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > thread when I first came to Django. In hindsight, it was pure > > inability to write the javascript myself, and reluctance to properly > > learn javascript. In the end I've seen that writing javascript > > manually results in much cleaner html output, using less code and it > > sometimes just performs better. On top of that, switching to another > > javascript has no effect whatsoever on your python/django code. > > The pure inability to write JavaScript argument is no trivial matter. > JavaScript for all of it's toy-like qualities can be maddeningly > complex and frustrating. > > This is an open source project and many of the people who develop > django apps share their work. It's a beautiful thing. I've learned > more poking around people's code then I have from here>... That's why, IMO, it's good to have a standardized javascript > library (if not necessarily official). People want to write and share > apps. And sharing them with a community that knows what to do with > them only makes them more powerful. > > If people shared their AJAX integrated code I'm sure it would save me > _lots_ of time. Both in figuring out how to do things and drop-in > code. > > So here's what it would probably mean to me: > > * Official Documentation - This is the first place I look for how to > do things. > * Open source apps that I read to learn how to do things/Cookbook > pages for all sorts of wacky stuff > * Drop in apps that extend functionality and make my site more useful > * Not having to chose a damn library myself (I use mochikit, but I > feel like it's dying on the vine) > * A chance to co-opt a JavaScript community/not lose a JavaScript > community to some other project > * A good marketing opportunity - just being able to put a check mark > next to AJAX integration, however meaningless is useful. Those who > ignore marketing do so at their own detriment. > * More cool apps written in django. Hey, the apps sell the framework. > * Share knowledge! > > I guess my point boils down to tools create possibilities. > Possibilities are impossible to fully articulate ahead of time. I > think I've thrown out some decent ones, but there are doubtless many > more. The point is that people learn, use, and adapt things in ways > that aren't always canonized. By embracing a tool, say a hammer, > you're not just going to hammer nails. You're going to carry around a > hammer and if something comes up that I can use my hammer for, you're > going to use it. > > The django developers have the ability to control the debate by > picking a library. The fact that they don't want to may be perfectly > valid. (I haven't read any of the pro and con other than this > thread.) But that doesn't mean the community can't rally around a > particular project. The fact of the matter is that de facto standards > often bubble up to become official standards. This is the risk that > the django devs run by not picking the library; one will be picked for > them. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
On 4/12/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > pcad, there's some good points there, and maybe many of us could share > more code showing how we've integrated whatever JS toolkit with > Django. But I like the agnostic stand. They give the tools to connect > easily. HOW you connect is up to you. > > I like jQuery. You like mochikit. Others like YUI, or Prototype, or > Dojo. Who's right? Everybody. Nobody. It depends. > Goog point! I like jQuery also. -- I like python! UliPad <>: http://wiki.woodpecker.org.cn/moin/UliPad My Blog: http://www.donews.net/limodou --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
> I like jQuery. You like mochikit. Others like YUI, or Prototype, or > Dojo. Who's right? Everybody. Nobody. It depends. I probably shouldn't have brought mochikit into it:) I like it, true enough, but I'd actually be happy to abandon it if there was some strong benefit like community involvement. You're right that picking a library is likely to be a matter of opinion, and therefore will likely cause a controversy. (Are javascript library wars anything like language wars?) But that doesn't mean it isn't worth it. If my little horse doesn't win the race I'm not exactly going to switch to J2EE/Rails/Pylons/. If I don't like the library that gets chosen I can always download my own code. The django code base already comes with js for the admin interface and I've never once looked at (no offense to the devs, it just seems tied into the admin interface). There's an opportunity here to build the community as well as catalyze some framework cross-pollination. Now you might not want to hitch your wagon to a dying horse (I don't), but there are some pretty interesting projects out there. I'm sure they would welcome a bunch of energetic pythonistas making their code more formidable. Just agreeing on an unofficial library might start something interesting. There are already two votes for jQuery. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
I think this discussion has reached its logical end as it often does. With that I will end it the way all the other discussions have ended ^_^. Write the integration framework for the Javascript library you like and get community support for it. If that support gets enough steam it will be considered for django contrib inclusion. The django core team has decided that they will not work on any core integration with any specific library, and there are no standards across libraries to do some sort of standard support (ala WSGI). What this means is that the django userbase community must do this work to prove its usefulness. A proof of concept is needed as we need to prove that the decision to not integrate with javascript is wrong. Saying its wrong and providing the same old reasons is not changing anything. I personally hate the 'don't like it? write the code!' sentiment, but sometimes its the only option left. This is one of those times. -Doug (NOTE: I do not speak for the django development team, I am not part of that team. Opinions expressed are mine and mine alone, so please keep all angry responses directed at me, as I am the only one who deserves them.) On Apr 12, 1:34 pm, "pcad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I like jQuery. You like mochikit. Others like YUI, or Prototype, or > > Dojo. Who's right? Everybody. Nobody. It depends. > > I probably shouldn't have brought mochikit into it:) I like it, true > enough, but I'd actually be happy to abandon it if there was some > strong benefit like community involvement. > > You're right that picking a library is likely to be a matter of > opinion, and therefore will likely cause a controversy. (Are > javascript library wars anything like language wars?) But that > doesn't mean it isn't worth it. If my little horse doesn't win the > race I'm not exactly going to switch to J2EE/Rails/Pylons/ favorite project here>. > > If I don't like the library that gets chosen I can always download my > own code. The django code base already comes with js for the admin > interface and I've never once looked at (no offense to the devs, it > just seems tied into the admin interface). > > There's an opportunity here to build the community as well as catalyze > some framework cross-pollination. Now you might not want to hitch > your wagon to a dying horse (I don't), but there are some pretty > interesting projects out there. I'm sure they would welcome a bunch > of energetic pythonistas making their code more formidable. > > Just agreeing on an unofficial library might start something > interesting. There are already two votes for jQuery. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
Hi Erdong, If you do a simple search for "AJAX" on this group you'll find the answer you're looking for, in brief: Django **will not** advocate for a specific ajax framework/library it provides useful tools to ease your development i.e. Serializers but as jacob sais a few days ago: "why should you trust *our* choices when it comes to JavaScript?" you can read the full text of that in http://www.pythonthreads.com/articles/interviews/django-shines-when-it-comes-to-developing-content-oriented-web-sites.htmlwhich also has an answer to your question. Cheers, Marc On 4/10/07, erdong ma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I do not know if a decision has been made on the ajax framework in 1.0. > Anyone knows some message about this. > By the way, how about the Eclipse + pydev comparing with the Wing IDE? > > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
On 4/10/07, erdong ma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I do not know if a decision has been made on the ajax framework in 1.0. Django will not bundle any JavaScript library or provide integration hooks with any specific library; Django will continue to make it easy to receive AJAX requests and send serialized XML or JSON data in response. -- "Bureaucrat Conrad, you are technically correct -- the best kind of correct." --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
James Bennett wrote: > On 4/10/07, erdong ma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I do not know if a decision has been made on the ajax framework in 1.0. > > Django will not bundle any JavaScript library or provide integration > hooks with any specific library; Django will continue to make it easy > to receive AJAX requests and send serialized XML or JSON data in > response. > > I like the idea that Django is AJAX implementation agnostic the same way it is agnostic to the database you prefer to back your project (if any), but, is there any work being done to create something in contrib to facilitate working with specific AJAX frameworks? Adam --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
To me, that does not seem very DRY. Even after the developer decides upon a javascript library to use, there is still a lot of boilerplate involved to do common things like populating one widget based upon what the user selects in another widget. I often need to populate one widget based upon what the user selects in another. Or update the contents of one div without reloading the whole page. And, OK, I'll fess up and say that I want to think in python and not have to switch gears back and forth between python and javascript. ;-) Integration of a javascript library with the new widgets and forms would have a lot of advantages. I'm new here. So I don't want to be overly critical. But Django definitely has a preferred ORM and a preferred templating engine. Why be so set on complete agnosticism when it comes to javascript? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
On 4/10/07, Steve Bergman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > And, OK, I'll fess up and say that I want to think in python and not > have to switch gears back and forth between python and javascript. ;-) To me, for all the other arguments people make, this is the real issue: wanting to avoid writing JavaScript. It's a philosophical issue, not a technical one, and I think one where the majority of Django core devs fall on the side of keeping client-side scripting out of the server-side framework (for the most part). However, there's nothing to stop someone from writing their own Django app that provides generic integration with a favorite JavaScript toolkit. Cheers, deryck --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
On Tue, 2007-04-10 at 18:11 +, Steve Bergman wrote: > But Django definitely has a preferred ORM and a preferred templating > engine. Why be so set on complete agnosticism when it comes to > javascript? > I agree. I don't have time to weigh the benefits of various libraries. As someone mentioned, we have stuff that translates to various databases. Why not factor out the important stuff and create interfaces to the JavaScript libraries people are interested in. Todd --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
On 4/10/07, Steve Bergman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Even after the developer decides upon a javascript library to use, > there is still a lot of boilerplate involved to do common things like > populating one widget based upon what the user selects in another > widget. I often need to populate one widget based upon what the user > selects in another. Or update the contents of one div without > reloading the whole page. Again, it's not terribly hard to write views which return JSON or XML; integration with form widgets, etc. requires binding to a specific JS library or rolling our own, and that's not going to happen. Search the archive of the Django mailing lists for some of the many times this has been discussed if you'd like to learn more. -- "Bureaucrat Conrad, you are technically correct -- the best kind of correct." --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
2007/4/10, James Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > Again, it's not terribly hard to write views which return JSON or XML; > integration with form widgets, etc. requires binding to a specific JS > library or rolling our own, and that's not going to happen. > With Django is terribly easy to do that. We have been working with jQuery and YUI without any problems. If Django was tied to a library we would have to adapt to the Django javascript library and perhaps that library is not the best for the job. For exemple the aproaches between YUI and JQuery are quite different and each one fits best for different kind of applications. We use jQuery for html centric applications and YUI for more desktop like. Best regards, -- Antoni Aloy López Binissalem - Mallorca http://apsl.net --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
On 10-Apr-07, at 11:41 PM, Steve Bergman wrote: > But Django definitely has a preferred ORM and a preferred templating > engine. Why be so set on complete agnosticism when it comes to > javascript? then, to complete your analogy, they would have to write and maintain their own javascript toolkit -- regards kg http://lawgon.livejournal.com http://nrcfosshelpline.in/web/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
On 4/11/07, Adam Findley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I like the idea that Django is AJAX implementation agnostic the same way > it is agnostic to the database you prefer to back your project (if any), > but, is there any work being done to create something in contrib to > facilitate working with specific AJAX frameworks? This issue keeps getting raised, but I am yet to see a specific statement of what "working with specific AJAX frameworks" means. I have used several different AJAX frameworks, and I can't say I've found Django's facilities particularly lacking (certainly not to the extent that the complaints on this front seems to suggest). What _specifically_ do you feel Django is missing? Yours, Russ Magee %-) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
On Apr 10, 11:39 am, "Todd O'Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, 2007-04-10 at 18:11 +, Steve Bergman wrote: > > But Django definitely has a preferred ORM and a preferred templating > > engine. Why be so set on complete agnosticism when it comes to > > javascript? > > I agree. I don't have time to weigh the benefits of various libraries. > As someone mentioned, we have stuff that translates to various > databases. Why not factor out the important stuff and create interfaces > to the JavaScript libraries people are interested in. This seems like a good idea, but I have a feeling that it's a lot more work, and would share less common code, than the Django ORM. With newforms I think we'll see some projects along this line though. Widget sets could be implemented with a specific JS framework and allow you to create AJAX enable pages just by specifying the widget. I don't think we'll see this come first in any official release, but from outside contributors. Oh, and let me plug MochiKit while on this topic. Seems to be very Python and Django-like in many ways, though it doesn't really have widgets. -Justin --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Django users" group. To post to this group, send email to django-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Which ajax framework django will support in the upcoming 1.0, prototype/dojo/jquery?
I think that most people that ask for "ajax integration" want to see
javascript helpers, as seen in many other frameworks. They're looking
for things like for example {% auto_complete_tag .. params ..%}; wich
would render an input box with the necessary javascript (inline..)
that makes it autocomplete.
If you dig in the archives you'll see that I have opened a similar
thread when I first came to Django. In hindsight, it was pure
inability to write the javascript myself, and reluctance to properly
learn javascript. In the end I've seen that writing javascript
manually results in much cleaner html output, using less code and it
sometimes just performs better. On top of that, switching to another
javascript has no effect whatsoever on your python/django code.
regards,
Simon
On Apr 11, 5:00 am, "Russell Keith-Magee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> On 4/11/07, Adam Findley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I like the idea that Django is AJAX implementation agnostic the same way
> > it is agnostic to the database you prefer to back your project (if any),
> > but, is there any work being done to create something in contrib to
> > facilitate working with specific AJAX frameworks?
>
> This issue keeps getting raised, but I am yet to see a specific
> statement of what "working with specific AJAX frameworks" means. I
> have used several different AJAX frameworks, and I can't say I've
> found Django's facilities particularly lacking (certainly not to the
> extent that the complaints on this front seems to suggest).
>
> What _specifically_ do you feel Django is missing?
>
> Yours,
> Russ Magee %-)
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