Re: [DNG] I am not using systemd and plan to avoid it
Calculated up: I use systemd and like it: 624 (36%) I use systemd and dislike it: 214 (12%) I am not using systemd and plan to use it: 87 (5%) I am not using systemd and plan to avoid it: 600 (35%) Other: 203 (12%) That means roughly only 711 people like and want to use systemd. That also means 814 people don't like it and don't want to use it. That leaves 203 people who either use something else and/or don't care (probably Runit, s6, and such). That means one thing... systemd is not liked and people have had it forced on them without merit by their distributions and things are about to get downright ugly as Hell. This shouldn't just be good news, it should be a damn wake up call to distributions out there that the number of people who are not liking systemd... are growing. From: Alberto Zuin - liste Sent: 7/15/2015 2:14 PM To: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: Re: [DNG] I am not using systemd and plan to avoid it Very interesiting data at this moment. I use systemd and like it: 607 (37%) I use systemd and dislike it: 208 (13%) I am not using systemd and plan to use it: 82 (5%) I am not using systemd and plan to avoid it: 560 (34%) Other: 200 (12%) So, now is 37% vs 34% (better than what I expected), but looking at the future there is a 37+5=42% of users that will have systemd vs 34+(potentially) 12=46% of non systemd users. Also a 12% of others that can potentially dislike systemd. Of course, less than 2K votes are not enough to have consistent results, anyway I'm really impressed. Alberto On 15/07/15 19:51, Anto wrote: I just cast my vote on http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20150713#poll. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd support in util-linux
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:15:47AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: Hi folks. Building util-linux-2.26 from the source at kernel.org, I noticed the following in the output of the configure script: checking for SYSTEMD... no checking for SYSTEMD_DAEMON... no checking for SYSTEMD_JOURNAL... no Means that Systemd is already there in official Linux software, even if Kdbus is not yet in the kernel.I doubt this configure script ever checked for the presence of Sysvinit. I think it is a very good thing to have config scripts checking for the existence of systemd. This means that developers still consider systemd a non standard component of a GNU/Linux system, like a library that you can have in your system or not. I will be more concerned when nobody checks for systemd any more, meaning that it is somehow implied to exist in your system, in some form... HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 07/15/2015 09:52 AM, Peter Olson wrote: On July 15, 2015 at 3:35 AM Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: Le 15/07/2015 04:16, Go Linux a écrit : I never could figure out vim but can find my way around nano. :) golinux Same for me. Was never able to make the slightest change to a file with vi :-( I have made horrendous changes with vi, quite simply, which had to be repaired by source code control :-) :-( Well, I probably could have done that with any other of multiple editors. Peter Olson just run vimtutor and do what it says... it's only difficult if you don't know the buttons. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On July 15, 2015 at 3:35 AM Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: Le 15/07/2015 04:16, Go Linux a écrit : I never could figure out vim but can find my way around nano. :) golinux Same for me. Was never able to make the slightest change to a file with vi :-( I have made horrendous changes with vi, quite simply, which had to be repaired by source code control :-) :-( Well, I probably could have done that with any other of multiple editors. Peter Olson ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 02:59:51AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote: More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would to propose some other default changes in the standard install: nano - vim exim - postfix what do you guys think about that? I believe it's not time for changes in the defaults. The first thing I do on fresh installs is to pull in vim and emacs, make one of them the default editor and remove the bloody exim. But I understand that most users are unconfortable with vim, and nano is a viable alternative. In any case, the principle of minimum surprise should be a guiding rule of thumb. IMHO, a superificial Debian jessie user should not notice the difference between Devuan and Debian, until she has to manually start/stop a daemon from the terminal. Then, since you are asking, I personally would prefer to have an as small as possible fingerprint on the basic install, which possibly implies *not* having a lot of garbage, including a proper MTA, installed by default (nullmailer would be more than enough for most of the uses of a basic install). I am convinced that users should know exactly what they need before they find it already installed in their system. As a matter of fact, 99.9% of the users do not need an MTA more powerful than nullmailer, and maybe almost 90% of typical users do not ever need to edit a file. Those who need something else should already be able to apt-get install whatever. If they are not, then they should do a little reading first. Having vim or an MTA already installed does not automagically give you the sufficient knowledge to use them, BTW. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Systemd support in util-linux
Hi folks. Building util-linux-2.26 from the source at kernel.org, I noticed the following in the output of the configure script: checking for SYSTEMD... no checking for SYSTEMD_DAEMON... no checking for SYSTEMD_JOURNAL... no Means that Systemd is already there in official Linux software, even if Kdbus is not yet in the kernel.I doubt this configure script ever checked for the presence of Sysvinit. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Franco Lanza next...@nexlab.it writes: More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would to propose some other default changes in the standard install: nano - vim exim - postfix I completely agree with Franco. On every unix the default editor is vi, so it must be in devuan, if somebody doesn't like it, he can use apt-get to install his favorite editor. Ciao, Micky -- The sysadmin has all the answers, expecially No ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Fw: [ale] ALE-Central Meeting Thursday July 16, 2015 @ 7:30pm
On 15/07/2015 06:30, Steve Litt wrote: Apparently somebody has arbitrarily declared July to be systemd month. I wonder what *we* can do to celebrate systemd month. I'm going to happily ignore it and do my own thing, and unless you want to give more power to systemd by acknowledging that the decisions of some dude in Atlanta have to influence your life because there's the word systemd in it, you should too. -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Le 15/07/2015 04:16, Go Linux a écrit : On Tue, 7/14/15, Daniel Reurich dan...@centurion.net.nz wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes To: Franco Lanza next...@nexlab.it, dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2015, 8:34 PM On 15/07/15 12:59, Franco Lanza wrote: nano - vim: No definitely not - Vim is huge in comparison and has a really non-intuitive operating mode for those unfamiliar with it, I never could figure out vim but can find my way around nano. :) golinux Same for me. Was never able to make the slightest change to a file with vi :-( ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 +1 for not changing the defaults at this time. I feel this could start a multitude of little holy wars (editor, mta, etc.) which we don't need right now that the first goal - Debian, but without systemd - is within grasp. Expert users can adapt from the Debian defaults to do what they need. I'd find it more valuable to have commonality with Debian here that sysadmins can automate customisation on both with the least amount of difference. Michael -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJVppVpAAoJEIeCTMxZltMWMQkP/3BG4cxjjIF5e4mN11xajGrx 6QUXq/WuBxPKw7N0IdxoruXVQfbyL/906xqJK2ipnUDW264c/0YzkuKhxYuGiXPv LVOuz5WmKTfJvoJBO4DMxDregbzIAzPbje6ZOSV8GVntXEFCQPII1PL+8904dpJq P/gwXprNtC63ZaPW/dQ1rC3lP+dYTlmrDGaRxsYd00vCl+ob8VlM8Wg9geYSGpNJ fRYvHS7NKnS9SMC9JGbLkj8ZN07fK25Aq5iiYdvVW9pka24YaxWnSB42FDRJuzB4 O5YqFLuDbQtqTWveK7BdGCSQWQWOxH94RW1Zi5+snjlDPE7bE+JTKlFfMuhYFRMa WfRRX2poX2JdkYLrVGyImZPOEpoy8hjPIgijfShd/TVt0jQ+36TGCJWi/hYGOMy7 eoodrt0Q576oAmrF1nuQ5cGHLN/nYQiCBZl1So1vg5WhtxiRWl6QgdDS6lm+Z/0N QVCRE4RTCYM+pvpISUlsAg5FcVRV2fmQlEkUvGGaEX3/WKOu94oPhn16i+yTMya9 rXp7GIIYbhWcGFjZsxK9rNKIBRJgqWrZ9UHwQJq1o1qA4hwvFLreby6EPAf6cYF8 nMsDTOhmWQc+h6zJYxHt98RvXH6Cta2/y6/0dAL/ch6Cyc3E9P7oeSVAGm4rX3IL 9vcmqr26j3jJvPVRHllT =A70z -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer
On Mon, 13 Jul 2015 18:45:19 +0200 Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr wrote: That said, I fully agree with you that udev is the major weapon the systemd team is using to lock themselves in the place, and breaking udev monopoly with vdev is the answer. Didier I did a lot of work with Gentoo over the weekend, and from my perspective, although Gentoo inits with OpenRC, it seems to default to udev, not eudev, and there's way to much systemd type stuff for my taste. They even have those wonderful Predictable Network Interface Names (http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/). Silly me, I thought eth0 was predictable. I know I can get back eth0 with a kernel argument, but I'm just illustrating how var Gentoo has gone down the systemd path. SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Answering in the list
Precedence had nothing to do with replies, it has to do with delivery and queuing. Long ago, some MTAs would try to deliver personal mail first at peak times, and defer list mail until there was sister capacity. Those times are fine, but the header field remains. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 17:08:35 +0100 Klaus Ethgen klaus+d...@ethgen.ch wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Am Mi den 15. Jul 2015 um 1:59 schrieb Franco Lanza: exim - postfix Why not nullmailer? I'd leave things the way they are. If there's a way to have nullmailer, in the absense of another SMTP server, get local email to the right place, I don't know how to do it. Nullmailer's wonderful, but unfortunately, error messages are so cryptic that the slightest error can be an hours-long troubleshoot. I mean, why say Can't open file and not mention the filename? Here are some docs I wrote on nullmailer: http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/nullmailer/ http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/nullmailer/landmines.htm SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 06:55:59AM -0400, Haines Brown wrote: May I suggest that at this point, changes of this significance should be planned for the next cycle rather than thrown in at the last moment? Well, we are not exactly at the last moment as my proposition is that such changes are for the beta. Anyway, it's ok for the next cycle. Yes, that makes sense. What is the next cycle? Alpha 1? On the other We are already at alpha 3 and close to beta :D Next cycle is to be intended as for ascii, the testing or Devuan 2.0. Anyway, for all other pointing on big changes and so on, i don't mean to change anything other than: when in debian we have nano and vim-tiny installed by default and $EDITOR pointing to nano, i suggest to remove nano and point $EDITOR to vim-tiny. When in debian exim is installed as default MTA, we should choose postfix instead. So, not such a biug change at all -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 10:53:50PM -0700, Isaac Dunham wrote: On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 02:59:51AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote: May I suggest that at this point, changes of this significance should be planned for the next cycle rather than thrown in at the last moment? Yes, that makes sense. What is the next cycle? Alpha 1? On the other hand, it seems that abandonment of systemd and udev is itself very ambitious and the bugs fully worked out before tossing in an array of secondary changes. I suppose the core target is debianites who might want to migrate to devuan with the least change in their usual habits. nano - vim As a nano and emacs user, the notion of having to use vim as well as emacs seems likely to confuse. Although space less of a concern these days, nano was always nice when you need to fit an editor into a small device. Other than the mentioned limitation, why switch? exim - postfix Same question here: are there significant reasons to change? Why was the idea of dumping udev in favor of vdev etc. not mentioned? That strikes me as a more fundamental issue and should be tried out in next cycle. As for desktop environment, I assume the option of having none will remain. With all this talk of xfce, I hope those who use none will be accommodated. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 02:40:49PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: taste. They even have those wonderful Predictable Network Interface Names (http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfaceNames/). Silly me, I thought eth0 was predictable. If you only have one NIC, yes it is. If you have more than one (even maybe with different drivers), your eth0 is not predictable anymore. You could say that is the fault of the kernel and the whole event based crap. Some distribution used udev rules and renamed the interfaces according to the rule file, but this could lead to race conditions (udev tried to rename ethX to ethY while the kernel want to name the next NIC ethY, then you got some nasty ethY_renamed interface). Shade and sweet water! Stephan -- | Stephan Seitz E-Mail: s...@fsing.rootsland.net | | Public Keys: http://fsing.rootsland.net/~stse/keys.html | smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] I am not using systemd and plan to avoid it
I just cast my vote on http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20150713#poll. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Svante Signell svante.sign...@gmail.com writes: Please don't exchange nano for vim. If you install vim as default you should also install emaacs-nox for those not comfortable with vim. nano is a simple editor good enough to edit e.g. configuration files and to enable installation of vim/emacs/whatever if needed. I always use emacs, but I also think it's too big to fit in default installation and i don't ask to install emacs-nox, as every emacs user I know the magic ESC :q! combination to quit vi :-) I vote to put vi as default editor in devuan because vi is the default editor in every unix since ever and every unix user has to know how to use vi! Ciao, Micky -- The sysadmin has all the answers, expecially No ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Le 15/07/2015 18:02, Klaus Ethgen a écrit : Even though mc is something good for beginners but debian or devuan is not focusing on beginners and even devuan is focusing on veteran unix admins so vi(m) would be the only proper choice.:-D I remember 30 years ago, there was an admin in my lab advocating for vi. I tried to find a manual and couldn't find one. Several time I watched the guy editing some files and was impressed by how painfull it was to him to change a single character in a text. I have been using emacs and emacs-like editors for 33 years I think. Of course I don't ask to have emacs installed by default (it is huge), nor even a small emacs clone, such as mg. If there's always vim-tiny, why are people asking to remove nano? If the gurus use vim and dislike nano, since they are gurus, they can change the default themselves and leave the ordinary people with a limited but usable editor. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Having nano available (doesn't matter if it's default) on base installs is critical for me. I never ever use vi unless I'm using a distro with nano/pico not being available. I expect nano to be available in a base install with no DE. so having a 'sys admin' version without nano seems odd. overall it's just simpler to quick edit config files (for me) with nano and if I'm going to do any kind of development it's not going to be from command-line with vi. It's going to be with eclipse, emacs, or another IDE. On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 9:16 AM, Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com wrote: On Wed, 7/15/15, Klaus Ethgen klaus+d...@ethgen.ch wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2015, 11:02 AM -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Am Mi den 15. Jul 2015 um 16:27 schrieb John Crisp: On 15/07/15 17:14, Klaus Ethgen wrote: . . . debian or devuan is not focusing on beginners and even devuan is focusing on veteran unix admins so vi(m) would be the only proper choice. :-D I am not a beginner neither am I a 'veteran unix admin' so neither fish nor fowl. My reasons for using Linux are technical of course - it's a better OS than the proprietary alternatives. But they are more political than anything else - fighting the corporate stranglehold that corporations have on all aspects of our lives. After over 10 years, Linux is still a challenge when I leave my comfort zone. Have mercy on the likes of me, please. Maybe what Devuan needs is a 'sys admin' version (perhaps w/o a DE) and an 'ordinary user' version (with xfce and less complicated tools than vi as default). golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd in wheezy, was: Re: bummer
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 03:07:46PM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: I am of the belief that sysvinit isn't all that bad, and I'd rather use it than learn something new. But I've found OpenRC relatively easy to understand and work with. OpenRC actually uses sysvinit; it replaces sysv-rc (the boot script framework) rather than init. In terms of how you run the scripts, it's fairly interchangeable; the most significant difference from sysv-rc is how you write the scripts, but even that is a matter of writing shell functions rather than case statements. Thanks, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 07:16:25PM +0200, Michael Bütow wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 +1 for not changing the defaults at this time. I feel this could start a multitude of little holy wars (editor, mta, etc.) which we don't need right now that the first goal - Debian, but without systemd - is within grasp. Expert users can adapt from the Debian defaults to do what they need. I'd find it more valuable to have commonality with Debian here that sysadmins can automate customisation on both with the least amount of difference. After reading this entire thread so far, here's my take. I agree with the above. The initial goal of devuan as I understand was debian jessie without systemd. I think we should stick to that goal which is ambitious enough for devuan 1.0. As for defaults, I'd say leave the editor and MTA as is. I use mostly emacs-nox, but also do use vim-tiny at times as well. Having said that, I've gotten used to having nano as part of a fresh install, and have learned to work with well enough until I get to the point where I install whatever editor I want. Also, I do believe that nano is newby-friendly. Those of us who are more advanced and don't want nano should also be advanced enough to replace it with whatever we want . As for the MTA, I usually replace exim with postfix if I want to do advanced things, but configure exim to send through a smarthost if that's all I need. Finally, I would propose modifying the installer for releases of devuan beyond 1.0 to ask the user what they want as default. Somewhere in the select and install software section ask the user select default editor to install, or select default mail transport agent to install, followed by a list of what is available. If the user doesn't know what to choose, just install nano and exim4. We can extend this methodology to any other section where there are multiple choices. If we want to give users choice, I think this is the optimal way to do it! For those who don't want to go through picking all this software, and just want an install with the defaults, they can set debconf priority above a certain level, and avoid all those questions. Just my $0.01 worth. Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 16/07/15 04:40, Franco Lanza wrote: On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:29:26AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: In that case, my next question would be Do we want to cater to those who are new to Linux/Unix? If yes, then nano is a good choice. If no, then vi is a good choice. Well, in my personal opinion devuan should not focus on new users, as nor debian does. But it should not beat them over the head and say go away either!!! For new users there are plenty of distros, most notable ubuntu, and we should not compete with it. So your implying new users are better off with systemd then?? We should focus on moderately expert to professional sysadmins and geeks, so, after some years of ubuntu if a user want to go to a more UNIX compliant distro, should switch to devuan. I think you are being to narrow here. Perhaps we could add the I am a geek and don't need my hand held mode to the installer :p Second focus is to be a base framework for derivates, and then derivates can of course choose to focus on users, and to do that switch to a more easy to learn editor maybe, or maybe switch to a GUI editor for newbies. That's a reasonable point, although we need Devuan to get to a stable point first, and for that we do need users - even newbs to help us refine the installer to make it easier across the board. -- Daniel Reurich Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. 021 797 722 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 09:04:03PM +0200, Micky Del Favero wrote: Svante Signell svante.sign...@gmail.com writes: Please don't exchange nano for vim. If you install vim as default you should also install emaacs-nox for those not comfortable with vim. nano is a simple editor good enough to edit e.g. configuration files and to enable installation of vim/emacs/whatever if needed. I always use emacs, but I also think it's too big to fit in default installation and i don't ask to install emacs-nox, as every emacs user I know the magic ESC :q! combination to quit vi :-) I vote to put vi as default editor in devuan because vi is the default editor in every unix since ever and every unix user has to know how to use vi! NO. Not every Unix user. Only the ones that use Unix variants that force vi on them. Only those have to use vi. nano is, as far as I can see, nobody's favorite editor. But it's also nobody's anathema. It will give you enough breathing room to choose the editor you really want. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Haines Brown hai...@histomat.net wrote: As for desktop environment, I assume the option of having none will remain. With all this talk of xfce, I hope those who use none will be accommodated. Extrememly likely -- the current installer (since Debian jessie alpha 1 ?), which we are using, even added desktop selection to the tasksel step, unlike before where kernel arguments were the only install-time option! Both nano and vim-tiny are likewise already installed by default... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 09:35:03AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: Which is Devuan intended to be? 1) Debian without systemd 2) A Debian-like distro Nor 1 or 2. Devuan is intended to be a debian that respect: 1- freedom of choice 2- UNIX philosophy 3- KISS philosophy Of course first of all those 3 points make systemd unacceptable. But saying that devuan is just debian withous systemd is riductive. traditionally UNIX has vi, this is why i'm suggesting it. No packages needs to be changed at all for this eventual switch, and anyway, as devuan respect the users, this choice isn't an imposition from the hight, but it's a question to the whole ml userbase to listen pro/cons. -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 15/07/15 15:48, Hendrik Boom wrote: On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 08:10:15PM +0630, Ста Деюс wrote: Good time of the day, Franco. I suggest instead of nano/vim -- mcedit -- the internal text editor, coming w/ MC. -- I think that MC is a must for any distro -- for it is comfortable to manage files/dir.s w/ it. If so, why no to use the already installed editor -- moreover that it is more comfortable to work w/ -- in my opinion. I think a lot of people had experience ever w/ the DOS programs and its NC, VC, etc. Gets my vote - lost without mc and the first thing I always install My entire problem with mc is that it's too easy to type mc when I mean mv and instead of moving my file it gets me into a strange mode I have to figure out how to get out of. I don't believe mc is any more rocket science than vim. Just what you are used too. I just tried vim to see what happened. Friendly help screen and amongst other things : Type :help Type :q Is that type: 'q' or type ':q' (for the novice) If I so much as touch a letter I can see text on the screen but then couldn't figure out how the hell to quit because the help screen disappears, :q doesn't quit, then the help which helpfully disappeared doesn't come to your rescue with :help and I am then locked in a padded cell :-) Only took me a few minutes before I vaguely remembered to try and use ESC :qAh - get the cursor at the bottom. Wish they had mentioned that earlier.. Made me realise why I use mc/mcedit and gave up on vim - too cryptic for me. Admittedly mc could do with a 'Use F keys' on the front page but beyond that for most stuff. Clearly YMMV :-) B. Rgds John signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan road map
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 10:13:00AM -0400, richard white wrote: Subject: [DNG] Devuan road map Does Devuan have a place where a road map is tracked/shown? It would be nice to have a central place to plan releases and features. -Rich Not yet enough documented, but the place you are searching is: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/home other projects wiki are relevant too and needs to be linked on the main one, there is a huge work to do for docs ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] I wan't it my way
I like linux because i can have it my way and you can have it your way. What do you think apt-get install is for? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Am Mi den 15. Jul 2015 um 16:27 schrieb John Crisp: On 15/07/15 17:14, Klaus Ethgen wrote: mc respectible mcedit is also a pain in the a... How often did I loose stuff due to the editor.. I have to damit that I used it sometimes 25 years ago when I start with linux but i learned pretty fast that it makes you just slow and not to use it... Seems the first release was 21 years ago (we all get a little memory loss) and I've used it pretty well since then and never lost a file (I can't say I am a heavy user). I've recovered plenty of systems with it though. :-D Well, nearly.. I started playing with linux somewhat around '92 or '93. far before the version 1.0 However, had some experiences with other unix before and used NC on dos obviously. It's a good tool for some quick navigation around and tickling the odd file. It was on dos with a limited shell. But with current shells like zsh I am much faster without and, most important, more flexible and more safe. Even though mc is something good for beginners but debian or devuan is not focusing on beginners and even devuan is focusing on veteran unix admins so vi(m) would be the only proper choice. :-D Regards Klaus - -- Klaus Ethgen http://www.ethgen.ch/ pub 4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16 Klaus Ethgen kl...@ethgen.de Fingerprint: 85D4 CA42 952C 949B 1753 62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJVpoQmAAoJEKZ8CrGAGfaswasL/243yXGukIvP57a/0QpKVC4u qjuKrf9/jXykR96BqlwgxAo+BnnYMaZaACCoPVzM1IzbtktO6iaPne7pbIC1KKMA xM7YpYornEYmB5Sbs+nWu9uPKa86BudKeK1bP62l4DqK3G9taVRG7X30vvGuCaI+ ydlJViozKaSbhv8FKHRtPaD5efnJBwtTaFYxog42jjT7cf3jSRfRizWFGg0Gd7mn kOqjemTCWtYIkPlmWkpmz09zbxf7SxuAKfWBe4weWQlqECgH/pqxLvciphKYxaQC yKEcTV+Doeg4V8zI/jE9nySQ68Hs6HZQkLXIUWIMu2zsfXHm/eGbDtIdOCuzUCUN FSUbHfuRCX+nkSg3NNQfG2Wj9k2rf/Bh1zAMEskc1LQI/lWrg7X8K1cseTLT7QXb hu0wU+VnPDglvk0VqUfP22NxVGNrdzigSrDVbGqQidvLPEtMcuIcaDIJr173puDD X4vhIBwgHgR13srf/XWW7HJAPfy5ZetzlLzy0+rsrw== =Czkw -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:44:03AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: Devuan is intended to be a debian that respect: 1- freedom of choice 2- UNIX philosophy 3- KISS philosophy Of course first of all those 3 points make systemd unacceptable. I'd say the second and third points also make systemd unacceptable. Three strikes and you're out. Well, sorry for my bad english, what i was meaning is the first effect of those 3 points, all 3, is systemd become unacceptable :D -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Am Mi den 15. Jul 2015 um 1:59 schrieb Franco Lanza: exim - postfix Why not nullmailer? nullmailer is fine for most beginners and for more you want to choose yourself. I personally do not like pestfix. It has some drawbacks: - - It is good for simple tasks but when the setup gets a bit more specific it is a pain in the a... - - It has no stable queue-ids - - It starts so many different daemons that are not fully clear if one needs them or not. (Cleaning up master.cf is a mess.) Definitely no KISS principle. Regards Klaus - -- Klaus Ethgen http://www.ethgen.ch/ pub 4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16 Klaus Ethgen kl...@ethgen.de Fingerprint: 85D4 CA42 952C 949B 1753 62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJVpoWCAAoJEKZ8CrGAGfasgM0L/3qhehc6yw4/XcWPEPB/yVa3 oAhhB/9jcs0I8T8zDb5Th9XySW8SPB7+JfDPl4iz+nsv5c0P+KmVnVvkg0vjRukQ hcLi1ScvvkPO3hKt1eEBUVWLehDXjxwt3jUjTia62yXRFOndSHoeOQeVS+ngiI3W nPYN6oRHo7s6k5VbU3E4ErSeoDLWxaAFjQEAMk5SmvFcg1FU/T9oBg+s2eWiXucR /uGU3Kc/Yo9smhSX8ZQqeUYXanz5kSW1G9MCFBp6f++D5Xm9Ai4KpVCvki9593yE vWykFjWuQ6kRgaLz4q7NOhIsVX2cXRk6xBLqypca6RrtbQVH48byR0YLJdgXriMb +dEJe4CXN1crsw/hEriUJi6GYZST5ZZ3XOw+jr3tC/vPWfkyLmscONVV+Ac8dSig 5k87Wjce+R7aQLCjsHgt1tq60JcU3zIvvVGAUNSMoKxrurv+C8RoyJHnGMri5qJA Atnh2BfiO09hcd9j0NrD6UkLZIw/gIEKIpuUHPCEQQ== =rxtY -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Fw: [ale] ALE-Central Meeting Thursday July 16, 2015 @ 7:30pm
Hi, I always happen to be the grumpy snob involved in something else, when GNU/Fedora quackeries are brought up. This case is no exception: to me, July is the sleep until noon, complain about the intense heatwave and work on rc hacks month. -- Teodoro Santoni Something is wrong. I don't wanna compile 20 KB of Go code to list files. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Hi, On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 02:59:51AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote: More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would to propose some other default changes in the standard install: nano - vim I'd put sandy [0] for the use it's meant for (even when X is fsck.vfatted up you can still hope editing text interactively), otherwise nano is fine. Vim users like me can install it. exim - postfix OK what do you guys think about that? [0]: http://tools.suckless.org/sandy -- Teodoro Santoni Something is wrong. I don't wanna compile 20 KB of Go code to list files. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Good time of the day, Franco. On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 02:59:51 +0200 you wrote: More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would to propose some other default changes in the standard install: nano - vim exim - postfix what do you guys think about that? I suggest instead of nano/vim -- mcedit -- the internal text editor, coming w/ MC. -- I think that MC is a must for any distro -- for it is comfortable to manage files/dir.s w/ it. If so, why no to use the already installed editor -- moreover that it is more comfortable to work w/ -- in my opinion. I think a lot of people had experience ever w/ the DOS programs and its NC, VC, etc. Regards, Sthu. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 08:10:15PM +0630, Ста Деюс wrote: Good time of the day, Franco. On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 02:59:51 +0200 you wrote: More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would to propose some other default changes in the standard install: nano - vim exim - postfix what do you guys think about that? I suggest instead of nano/vim -- mcedit -- the internal text editor, coming w/ MC. -- I think that MC is a must for any distro -- for it is comfortable to manage files/dir.s w/ it. If so, why no to use the already installed editor -- moreover that it is more comfortable to work w/ -- in my opinion. I think a lot of people had experience ever w/ the DOS programs and its NC, VC, etc. My entire problem with mc is that it's too easy to type mc when I mean mv and instead of moving my file it gets me into a strange mode I have to figure out how to get out of. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 09:32:40 +0100 KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote: On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 04:20:36AM -0400, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 10:03:21 +0200 Peter Maloney peter.malo...@yahoo.ca wrote: just run vimtutor and do what it says... it's only difficult if you don't know the buttons. I will come down on the other side of the argument: As a Debian noob (after years of using Slack, Mandrake-Mandriva-Mageia) I was completely lost the first time I was thrown at boot-time into the recovery console, and there was no vi available... Cheers, I agree that a standard (minimal) vi should be included in the basic install and possibly made available within the installer (even if ed is always there and should be more than enough for simple recovery tasks by any vi user, BTW... :P). HND KatolaZ I'm pretty sure oldschool vi *is* included in the basic install and always has been. SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:38:43 +0200 Franco Lanza next...@nexlab.it wrote: Devuan is intended to be a debian that respect: 1- freedom of choice 2- UNIX philosophy 3- KISS philosophy Of course first of all those 3 points make systemd unacceptable. I'd say the second and third points also make systemd unacceptable. Three strikes and you're out. SteveT Steve Litt July 2015 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 07/15/2015 06:39 PM, Steve Litt wrote: I'm pretty sure oldschool vi *is* included in the basic install and always has been. It usually is http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/vi.html http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/ and nano is not. But the fewer changes in the first version of Devuan the better, IMHO as an interested user. Regards, Lars ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Ста Деюс sthu.d...@openmailbox.org writes: coming w/ MC. -- I think that MC is a must for any distro -- for it is comfortable to manage files/dir.s w/ it. If so, why no to use the On servers where mc is installed and I cannot remove it I always do $ echo alias mc=mv ~/.bashrc . ~/.bashrc I thing mc is useless: Real men don't eat quique. Ciao, Micky -- The sysadmin has all the answers, expecially No ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:38:43 +0200 Franco Lanza next...@nexlab.it wrote: traditionally UNIX has vi, this is why i'm suggesting it. Except that Debian does not have it when a boot prob sends you to the rescue console ;-3( Cheers, Ron. -- Il est plus honteux de se défier de ses amis que d'en ètre trompé. -- Duc de Larochefoucault -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On 15/07/15 17:00, Micky Del Favero wrote: I thing mc is useless: Real men don't eat quique. Each to their - the wonder of choice. I always did wonder why I never liked quiche though. Clearly I'm not a real man. Must remember to tell my wife and sons ;-) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
Franco Lanza next...@nexlab.it writes: when in debian we have nano and vim-tiny installed by default and $EDITOR pointing to nano, i suggest to remove nano and point $EDITOR to vim-tiny. +1 for pointing $EDITOR to vim-tiny When in debian exim is installed as default MTA, we should choose postfix instead. I agree also with it. Ciao, Micky -- The sysadmin has all the answers, expecially No ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Am Mi den 15. Jul 2015 um 16:06 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI: On Wed, 15 Jul 2015 16:38:43 +0200 Franco Lanza next...@nexlab.it wrote: traditionally UNIX has vi, this is why i'm suggesting it. Except that Debian does not have it when a boot prob sends you to the rescue console ;-3( Yes, and that is a pain in the a... nano is such a unusable editor; I never was able to use it. Even leaving is not that easy. vi (or vim-tiny) is the only editor that would be proper for such a important point. Some might argue emacs but that is a too big one (And I don't like it. ;-) mc respectible mcedit is also a pain in the a... How often did I loose stuff due to the editor.. I have to damit that I used it sometimes 25 years ago when I start with linux but i learned pretty fast that it makes you just slow and not to use it... Regards Klaus - -- Klaus Ethgen http://www.ethgen.ch/ pub 4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16 Klaus Ethgen kl...@ethgen.de Fingerprint: 85D4 CA42 952C 949B 1753 62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJVpni5AAoJEKZ8CrGAGfasUGoL/1mb61jqf6WeAgPl/eNa5xPC jIfwV7vQz4ZC2SFsI8IvGMY7kmZnVklRTWIynWSpOKVJgb83+ev9J5WIgxwR7VEa RGMwvbbCY6IUbnSPd1Ic3lE4oisF+S5ZQv6tlRV3M1VsYvezRzBnaP2xaMszmjo5 0jLxbXU3EAazXk5KTgBRh8I0Pz9yqeb/A8ShMeqpCpZlC6je9gMBbfz18XydqRSR 8MXGyfANAYnx6F81GRofScm0AGgvIXfwSWGHZG8fNX61dS3RoRS3tb23UU9Sk28A U6wVoD9jmm2/x/1zkbHyHxSEVhpeCpqIEvsmPernWaFCc4nGVzroBk6DibFyjjSR y+0mcOp+q/NYslQ83At/8TuSxNZ7FZNLwmZZm37lsr6sC9u9vqlJo/d8aYmBK+GI xyy6YXQGKk71fINpV3h01N61Oh8wu1yD54/kULpQZVyy14toTrDeWRQ0rOXEOs58 9DiU3VLvGZfOC3tLsbu95ZiCNam3OQHfg4OpNoxDsg== =MjwZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, 7/15/15, Klaus Ethgen klaus+d...@ethgen.ch wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Wednesday, July 15, 2015, 11:02 AM -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Am Mi den 15. Jul 2015 um 16:27 schrieb John Crisp: On 15/07/15 17:14, Klaus Ethgen wrote: . . . debian or devuan is not focusing on beginners and even devuan is focusing on veteran unix admins so vi(m) would be the only proper choice. :-D I am not a beginner neither am I a 'veteran unix admin' so neither fish nor fowl. My reasons for using Linux are technical of course - it's a better OS than the proprietary alternatives. But they are more political than anything else - fighting the corporate stranglehold that corporations have on all aspects of our lives. After over 10 years, Linux is still a challenge when I leave my comfort zone. Have mercy on the likes of me, please. Maybe what Devuan needs is a 'sys admin' version (perhaps w/o a DE) and an 'ordinary user' version (with xfce and less complicated tools than vi as default). golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Answering in the list
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 Hi guys, is it to much to ask not to include me in the To: when answering my posts? Obviously I read the list so the discussion should stay here. And another plea, please don't post TOFU[0]. Regards Klaus [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting - -- Klaus Ethgen http://www.ethgen.ch/ pub 4096R/4E20AF1C 2011-05-16 Klaus Ethgen kl...@ethgen.de Fingerprint: 85D4 CA42 952C 949B 1753 62B3 79D0 B06F 4E20 AF1C -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 iQGcBAEBCgAGBQJVpopZAAoJEKZ8CrGAGfasdjML+wXzhYe5+WQ2ucfA4ICqS/PO FIvZEDUAn0bBaao7mie5bvqA3FaX8ylHRgbEMvPWPUlGG5LQ/sZ6Ro82fGmSfYs0 EHHeyiRfEXqcLzKkyj7HDdCR3jt0qnOGIVl7MEmkzVgKdSZoDAraXJlxmi+1HW9J RPNdFgjXwABDeqjr8NtkubTHKYOWLJCmWFCwfi96U/4oN8AJj+/7Y91vneoqJj7V +j8kcwbtTCgRS0l3ffUZpPuHmhcQoA2X+oLNxz9lUXCsphfHSXGp0bxLJ1hKLy9s viF2DLr54tsFpKELjeFS18tC6H5mwpt0csz7Di/4qy7KNK+9ycyXFfvPA8EyuI9S Tpuf1Qq28OfunyyUDZwETF/BEpMAK5PI4kVhkHalxUr7m2DLT/62h5a74q+AbkVM Lv+0qCSOVuQX/lZjd2BXb80FJROAC8d8W3HBIVQTVOZ32pYIECKsdXgdHtjvtl0w licoZ5hjqyicUg/miz//klbRwHTjV1zvHgYijjU5Jg== =xBat -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
- Original Message - From: KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org To: Franco Lanza next...@nexlab.it Cc: dng@lists.dyne.org Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 4:29 AM Subject: Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 02:59:51AM +0200, Franco Lanza wrote: More than the already know switch from gnome to xcfe4 as the default desktop and the oblovious change to sysvinit instead of systemd, i would to propose some other default changes in the standard install: nano - vim exim - postfix what do you guys think about that? I believe it's not time for changes in the defaults. The first thing I do on fresh installs is to pull in vim and emacs, make one of them the default editor and remove the bloody exim. But I understand that most users are unconfortable with vim, and nano is a viable alternative. In any case, the principle of minimum surprise should be a guiding rule of thumb. IMHO, a superificial Debian jessie user should not notice the difference between Devuan and Debian, until she has to manually start/stop a daemon from the terminal. Then, since you are asking, I personally would prefer to have an as small as possible fingerprint on the basic install, which possibly implies *not* having a lot of garbage, including a proper MTA, installed by default (nullmailer would be more than enough for most of the uses of a basic install). I am convinced that users should know exactly what they need before they find it already installed in their system. As a matter of fact, 99.9% of the users do not need an MTA more powerful than nullmailer, and maybe almost 90% of typical users do not ever need to edit a file. Those who need something else should already be able to apt-get install whatever. If they are not, then they should do a little reading first. Having vim or an MTA already installed does not automagically give you the sufficient knowledge to use them, BTW. My2Cents KatolaZ -- 1+ | ISMAEL | ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Answering in the list
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 05:29:22PM +0100, Klaus Ethgen wrote: Hi guys, is it to much to ask not to include me in the To: when answering my posts? Obviously I read the list so the discussion should stay here. And another plea, please don't post TOFU[0]. Regards Klaus Well, did your client support reply to list? It should, and the headers says: Precedence: list List-Id: The first mailinglist after debianfork.org dng.lists.dyne.org List-Post: mailto:dng@lists.dyne.org so reply to list works, this is the correct beaviour of a mailing list -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Proposed defaults changes
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 11:29:26AM -0400, Rob Owens wrote: In that case, my next question would be Do we want to cater to those who are new to Linux/Unix? If yes, then nano is a good choice. If no, then vi is a good choice. Well, in my personal opinion devuan should not focus on new users, as nor debian does. For new users there are plenty of distros, most notable ubuntu, and we should not compete with it. We should focus on moderately expert to professional sysadmins and geeks, so, after some years of ubuntu if a user want to go to a more UNIX compliant distro, should switch to devuan. Second focus is to be a base framework for derivates, and then derivates can of course choose to focus on users, and to do that switch to a more easy to learn editor maybe, or maybe switch to a GUI editor for newbies. -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Why neither vi nor emacs make good default start-up editors
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 04:34:57PM +0200, John Crisp wrote: On 15/07/15 15:48, Hendrik Boom wrote: On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 08:10:15PM +0630, Ста Деюс wrote: Good time of the day, Franco. I suggest instead of nano/vim -- mcedit -- the internal text editor, coming w/ MC. -- I think that MC is a must for any distro -- for it is comfortable to manage files/dir.s w/ it. If so, why no to use the already installed editor -- moreover that it is more comfortable to work w/ -- in my opinion. I think a lot of people had experience ever w/ the DOS programs and its NC, VC, etc. Gets my vote - lost without mc and the first thing I always install My entire problem with mc is that it's too easy to type mc when I mean mv and instead of moving my file it gets me into a strange mode I have to figure out how to get out of. I don't believe mc is any more rocket science than vim. Just what you are used too. I just tried vim to see what happened. Friendly help screen and amongst other things : Type :help Type :q Is that type: 'q' or type ':q' (for the novice) If I so much as touch a letter I can see text on the screen but then couldn't figure out how the hell to quit because the help screen disappears, :q doesn't quit, then the help which helpfully disappeared doesn't come to your rescue with :help and I am then locked in a padded cell :-) That's exactly the problem with vi. I have been using Linux for well over a decade now, and usually edit with emacs. The only time I have to use vi is when my system isn't set up properly yet and some system activity decides I have to edit something and pitched me into vi. I am then lost. The changes I have to make in such circumstances are usually small enough that nano suffices nicely. And when I'm done with those changes it' easy to exit. Is says how right on the bottom of the screen. Even experienced Linux users, who normally use the command line on a text console, may not know vi. It's the experienced vi users that know how to use vi. It's not the same population. And it's the experienced emacs users that know how to use emacs. It's also not the same population. Let's not try to adjudicate the vi vs emacs battle and force either of them on the user of a newly installed system. . For the default editor, the one that's installed at the beginning, the one that's identified by $EDITOR, the one that's picked by an arbitrary systemd process when it's time to edit some random text file, neither vi not emacs is acceptable. nano works in this context, because it's so seriously self-explanatory. And no, I wouldn't want nano for everyday editing either. It's usable in a pinch, but it can easily be a pain for everyday use. But it's the editor that everyone can figure out how to use in short order to make simple changes. Perhaps the first thing you'd do after installation is to choose a better editor and point $EDITOR to it. But you then you, ther user, *gets to choose the editor*. Forcing those unfamiliar with it to use vi or to use emacs is to make life difficult for a significant part of out potential user base. Doing either of these makes the first-day installation and setup learning curve significantly steeper than necessary. If there were some other editor whose use was as self-evident as nano, it could also be a good candidate. -- hendrik Only took me a few minutes before I vaguely remembered to try and use ESC :qAh - get the cursor at the bottom. Wish they had mentioned that earlier.. Made me realise why I use mc/mcedit and gave up on vim - too cryptic for me. Admittedly mc could do with a 'Use F keys' on the front page but beyond that for most stuff. Clearly YMMV :-) B. Rgds John ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
