Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl): > An orderly shutdown is better than an unclean one, thus any display > manager that forbids local users to shutdown is buggy. Let me tell you a metaphor, to sneak up on why it's not that simple. I have a sign at the entrance to my garden. For context, for forty years from 1966 to 2006, my family home was a rental property, after my father's employer, Pan American World Airways, moved us to Hong Kong. Finally, I got back, and moved back in. During those forty years of renter neglect, numerous people had gotten used to walking, or even walking with their dogs, from the street through the wilder part of my large front yard. Most of the sidewalk border is blocked by 20 year old oleander bushes, about three meters tall. There was one gap in the oleanders about a meter wide at one end, another about 30cm wide at the other. Even after I reclaimed the area behind the oleanders from wildness and planted a vegetable garden in raised beds, people kept barging through, often with their dogs. If I engaged their attention and politely asked them to leave, they'd almost always say the same thing: 'I thought this was a park.' They didn't really think it was a park. For 40 years, they assumed it was a partially derelict property that they could trespass on without objection -- but when you corner people and they're totally in the wrong, they blurt out the first justification that comes to mind. I said, this is a social problem: Time for a technical solution (ref: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#edwards). I put a two-meter-tall steel-wire-frame arch in the large gap, like an upside-down U, turning it into a formal entrance, and planted climbing roses to ascend up each side. And just above eye-level in the arch, facing the street, a sign: INVITED GUESTS WELCOME. 1105 Altschul Gardens is private prperty. It was cordial, and it was clear. Suddenly the gap wasn't just a gap, but an entrance, ostentatiously looked after, curated. The arch and sign jointly conveyed: No more 'oh, sorry' excuses. You assume this is derelict at your peril. We had no more problems except one teenager who said 'Oh, I'm not invited?' with a stupid smirk. I just looked bored and escorted him off. The linneus bottomus: The purpose of the sign wasn't to prevent trespassing. It was to create undeniable awareness. Mindfulness. The purpose of a display manager not making it a trivially easy operation for any local user to initiate software shutdown isn't to prevent shutdown. It's to discourage _mindless_ shutdown, by console users perhaps unaccustomed to Unix and oblivious to the cron task or long-running program they're going to kill by thinking like a pee-cee weenie who assumes he/she is the centre of the friggin' world and nobody else matters. It means no more 'oh, sorry' excuses. You assume this system's run state is unimportant at your peril. The linneus bottomus: The purpose of making such software shutdown not trivially easy wasn't to prevent shutdown. It is to create undeniable awareness. Mindfulness. The standard solution to give users _deliberately_ that software access is to add them to a group with that right. If the user wants to ignore social cuing and shutdown the machine anyway by hardware measures, that's indeed always possible at the local machine and social cuing won't stop it. If neighbours want to ignore social cuing and stomp through my vegetable garden, that's indeed always possible from the sidewalk and social cuing won't stop it. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 06:27:25PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > > In any case, any person who has the possibility to push the > > power button or cut the power cord should be given the opportunity > > to click the halt button instead. ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del can be > > used to reboot, but there's nothing to halt. > > Halt is accomplished by first doing ctrl-alt-f1, ctrl-alt-del, then > turning the system unit off before significantly into startup (assuming > physical access to the system unit in addition to a physical console). > > Or, as you say, through a hardware button on the system unit, or yanking > the mains (AC) cord. Which means the defaults for display managers are bogus. In the default configuration, anyone with physical access can ctrl-alt-del or alt-sysrq. This can be disabled, so can be a brief push of the power button (ACPI shutdown), but I have yet to see a BIOS that allows disabling long push of the power button, or, for that matter, yanking the power cord (or the battery of a mobile device). Thus, unless someone took extraordinary steps to provide physical security, anyone able to login locally can turn the machine off, period. An orderly shutdown is better than an unclean one, thus any display manager that forbids local users to shutdown is buggy. -- An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no): > Rick Moen writes: > >Funny that you should mention that: You might actually have seen that > >tale as related by _me_ on Risks Digest. > > The substance is similar but the wording unfamiliar. Could it > possibly be that such a thing has happened twice? Surely not. Probably the same airline incident, described twice. > (BTW, I had to explain a two-routers-in-one-19" thing in my hand > luggage very thoroughly once. The odd appearance and solid steel > construction made them jittery. But my double-edged razor blades > went by without comment.) Heh. You can imagine the problems winners of the Hugo Award had flying home with a metal trophy shaped like a metre-tall rocket. http://www.thehugoawards.org/content/hugos-large/1993.jpg These days, the awarding convention just offers to ship them home, for winners. > Edge case is the right term, and the proverb goes "optimize for the > common case". I believe another proverb goes 'Don't blow security as a default.' ;-> But anyway, it's not like I get a vote. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > In any case, any person who has the possibility to push the > power button or cut the power cord should be given the opportunity > to click the halt button instead. ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del can be > used to reboot, but there's nothing to halt. Halt is accomplished by first doing ctrl-alt-f1, ctrl-alt-del, then turning the system unit off before significantly into startup (assuming physical access to the system unit in addition to a physical console). Or, as you say, through a hardware button on the system unit, or yanking the mains (AC) cord. (Technically, you spoke of someone 'who has access to the shutdown button of the display manager', which in edge cases _could_ be a remote user -- but generally is not.) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] with or without libsystemd0
Quoting fsmithred (fsmith...@gmail.com):
> Oh, you must have missed my last report. Surely, you would agree that
> executing an executable file is doing something.
No, I didn't miss that. libsystemd0 didn't do anything, by your own
account. By said account, some piece of GNOME infrastructure took some
action ('removable drives no longer appear on the desktop').
I'm not surprised. GNOME is brittle, and a dependency hairball (as is
XFCE, because of core components in common with GNOME). My opinion,
yours under royalty-free licensing if you want it. ;->
You refer to '/lib/systemd/systemd-udevd' as 'an executable binary file
that libsystemd0 provides'. This appears to be the cause of the
confusion. That is _not_ a part of package libsystemd0.
https://packages.debian.org/stable/amd64/libsystemd0/filelist provides the list
(for the x86_64 package in current Debian-stable, as an example),
comprising one dynamic library, one symlink to that library, and two
small documentation files:
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd.so.0
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd.so.0.3.1
/usr/share/doc/libsystemd0/changelog.Debian.gz
/usr/share/doc/libsystemd0/copyright
Normally, when I say 'libsystemd0', I assume people mean
lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd.so.0 (the symlink) or the binary it
points to, currently /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd.so.0.3.1 . But
even taking the most expansive possible interpretation of what you meant
when you said 'an executable binary file that libsystemd0 provides',
that does _not_ include systemd-udevd, which is simply not in that
package at all.
As you will see in
https://packages.debian.org/stable/amd64/udev/filelist, that executable
is in package udev, not package libsystemd0.
> For the past two years, people have been saying that libsystemd0 is just a
> library
It's just a library. But check the list of files for yourself. Certainly
don't take my word for it.
> To summarize: libsystemd0 runs its program(s) even when systemd is not
> installed.
To summarise: You made a mistake.
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Re: [DNG] "soft" dependencies on libraries (was: with or without libsystemd0)
Quoting Simon Hobson (li...@thehobsons.co.uk): > Rick Moen wrote: > > > This is a bit silly > > TBH, I'm finding most of your argument a bit silly too. So we might as well > drop it Works for me! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Wirth's law
Am Wed, 20 Jul 2016 22:40:11 + schrieb Steve Litt : Hi Steve! > I just found out about Wirth's Law: > > [ . . . ] > > * Look at all the money in my bank account. I'd better start spending. > [ . . . ] I remember this theory/law already mentioned in the eighties in a genius Apple II GS discussion group. But anyway ... it's nice :) :) But i disagree on your money metaphor: Living in the times we're living i'd say "carpe diem" (= spend your money now and best for what you need and don't give it to the banks) might be indeed the better advice. If the times get harder we could try to elevate goats and tomatoes ;) Sorry for the digression. Cheers! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] with or without libsystemd0
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 18:39:57 -0400, fsmithred wrote in message <578ffdbd.4020...@gmail.com>: > So the original question I had, as to whether libsystemd0 does > anything when systemd is not installed, is still unanswered. ..think of it like you think of a football coming bouncing out across the road from between those parked cars you're about to pass... is there a playful kid or 3 chasing it... if you're not on the brakes hard, you probably shouldn't be driving at all. ..but then again there's stupid luck, there might be zero kids chasing that football and you might be mocked for for being too damned paranoid by those who believe libsystemd0 etc will never do us harm, and believe the pötterings are merely working for Ed Snowdon as a plan B in case the NSA figures out Tor... ..we don't know, so we must act upon imperfect beliefs, and back those up on our own spine and gut feelings and whatever bits we do learn. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] with or without libsystemd0
I'm top-posting on a bottom-post thread, and I'm replying to myself to retract what I said below. The executable I found, /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd, did not come with the libsystemd0 package. It was already there. If someone knows how to tell if a library was used by a program, I would like to learn how that is done. Thanks. -fsr On 07/20/2016 06:18 AM, fsmithred wrote: > On 07/19/2016 06:10 PM, Rick Moen wrote: >> Saying libsystemd0 'does something' merely because higher-layer GNOME >> code probed it for a function and then decided to do or not do something >> based on what it found (my high-confidence surmise about your gvfs >> anecdote) entails very peculiar construing of the verb 'to do' -- and >> I'm pretty sure hardly anyone else uses the verb quite that way. > > > Oh, you must have missed my last report. Surely, you would agree that > executing an executable file is doing something. > > For the past two years, people have been saying that libsystemd0 is just a > library, and it does nothing if systemd is not installed or not running. > I've been skeptical of such claims, but until yesterday, I wasn't sure. > Neither one of those claims is accurate. Among the files that the > libsystemd0 package provides, at least two of them are executable files. > There may be more that aren't located in /lib/systemd/. > > Here it is again. > >> One more test - instead of 'chmod -R 000 /lib/systemd' I tried 'chmod -x >> /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd' thus disabling an executable binary file that >> libsystemd0 provides. Dropped to runlevel 1, ctrl-d to return to desktop, >> and removable drives no longer appear on the desktop. > > I suppose it's possible that gvfs just checks for the executable bit on > /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd and doesn't actually run that program, but I > doubt that. > > To summarize: libsystemd0 runs its program(s) even when systemd is not > installed. > > -fsr > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] with or without libsystemd0
On 07/20/2016 06:44 AM, Jaromil wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jul 2016, fsmithred wrote: > >> On 07/19/2016 06:10 PM, Rick Moen wrote: >>> Saying libsystemd0 'does something' merely because higher-layer GNOME >>> code probed it for a function and then decided to do or not do something >>> based on what it found (my high-confidence surmise about your gvfs >>> anecdote) entails very peculiar construing of the verb 'to do' -- and >>> I'm pretty sure hardly anyone else uses the verb quite that way. >> >> >> Oh, you must have missed my last report. Surely, you would agree that >> executing an executable file is doing something. > > technically speaking, one doesn't even need to "run an executable" to > execute code. Either by shared-lib linking or by dynamic loading > (dlopen), a program linking a library can execute code provided by the > library in its own stack. Such code will run with the exact same > access than the calling code (access to file descriptors, processes > etc.). > >> >> For the past two years, people have been saying that libsystemd0 is just a >> library, and it does nothing if systemd is not installed or not running. >> I've been skeptical of such claims, but until yesterday, I wasn't sure. >> Neither one of those claims is accurate. Among the files that the >> libsystemd0 package provides, at least two of them are executable files. >> There may be more that aren't located in /lib/systemd/. > > [...] > >> To summarize: libsystemd0 runs its program(s) even when systemd is not >> installed. > > This may be incorrect, as I don't see any execve() in libsystemd. > > What we can say is that libsystemd0 runs its code, called by other > programs, even when systemd is not installed. > > ciao! > > ___ Well, I was all set to argue with you, and I checked again. I must admit that I made a mistake. The executable file I found, /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd, did not come with the libsystemd0 package. It was already there. I apologize for starting a small shitstorm over my mistake. Yeah, I understand that a library can be called by more than one program, but how can we know if a library has been called? Keep track of the last access time on the file? Some other way? So the original question I had, as to whether libsystemd0 does anything when systemd is not installed, is still unanswered. -fsr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Wirth's law
Hi all, I just found out about Wirth's Law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirth%27s_law Hey, I live in the 21st century, so I don't try to optimize out a kilobyte at a time. But I'm also not blind, so I know that Openbox plus dmenu is a whole lot quicker and snappier, even on modern computers, than KDE, Gnome or Unity. LOL, there's a certain mindset: * Look at all this room in the new house. Better buy some furniture to fill it up. * Look at all the money in my bank account. I'd better start spending. * Look at all the RAM and CPU in my computer. I'd better get some programs that use it all. * Look at this simple operating system on this powerful, capable hardware. I'd better make more complex software because I can. SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] "soft" dependencies on libraries (was: with or without libsystemd0)
Jaromil wrote: >> So, does anyone know if it's "hard" to use a library in a "see if >> it's there and don't use it if it isn't" way rather than "just use >> it and blow up if it's not there" which seems to be the norm ? > > it is not hard at all. in fact one can simply dlopen(3) OK, so that's given me a clue, and top hit comes up with : http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Program-Library-HOWTO/dl-libraries.html from that and the previous page I think I see what's needed. As I read that, "statically defined" shared libraries are automatically opened by the system when the program is loaded - so all you need to do is tell "whatever builds it" to include that information. But to make it "soft" it needs a few lines of code ? So not "hard", but a *little* extra work. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 20/07/2016 15:42, Simon Hobson a écrit : What I struggle to understand is why "multiseat" as it's being discussed here (as an aside to the "can I shutdown from the login screen" discussion) should be considered so "hard". It's really (or shouldn't be) any different to (say) serial terminals - instantiate a "login process" for each instance of the hardware, "getty" on a serial line, choice of display manager (or whatever) for each KVM set. Or have I missed something obvious ? I think it was a mistake to introduce the concept of multiseat in this discussion. What matters is who has access to the shutdown button of the DM. Wether the DM exposes a button or traps a special username makes no difference. Note that the priviledge to shutdown a computer is not so big, compared to the priviledges one gets with the root password. On many servers, I give the shutdown priviledge to several users who ignore the root password - with sudo. In any case, any person who has the possibility to push the power button or cut the power cord should be given the opportunity to click the halt button instead. ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del can be used to reboot, but there's nothing to halt. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Grml] Is grml still alive
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 15:18:53 +0200, Arnt wrote in message <20160720151853.6a52c...@nb6.lan>: > On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 14:09:14 +0200, Alexander wrote in message > <20160720120914.gc25...@smithers.snow-crash.org>: > > > On Wed, 20 Jul 2016, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > > > > > > ..looks like Grml is a loss: http://bts.grml.org/grml/issue1568 > > > Pity. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=alternatives+to+udev&ia=web > > > > > > ..systemd, udev etc pötterication has no more tech etc merit than > > > e.g. Erdogan's ban on Turk academics going on e.g. vacation > > > abroad. > > > > > > > Please don't Cc our mailinglist again. > > ..from which mailing list am I now being banished? ;o) > I am aware I am not welcome on Debian mailing lists due to my > knowledge of banana republic politics and how they brought systemd > upon Debian, and therefore didn't cc any Debian mailing lists. ;o) > ..it appears Alexander Wirt (alias Alexander Wirt ?) meant the grml mailing list. Oh well. :o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 20/07/2016 15:42, Simon Hobson a écrit : it is perfectly possible to run a remote KVM which*CAN* do that. Just extend the KVM cables, and if they won't go far enough of you can't run the cables, convert to something intermediate (eg KVM over IP) very much like connecting a serial terminal via a modem. I overlooked that. Actually one can run remote KVMs over IP. In principle, the connection is secured, and the real purpose of these remote KVMs is to allow the admin to take control of the computer when all other means fail, which means exactly to reboot and/or debug. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Cannot install Samba on Jessie
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 14:23:02 +0100, Rowland wrote in message <578f7b36.8030...@gmail.com>: > On 20/07/16 14:10, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 12:15:27 +0100, Rowland wrote in message > > <578f5d4f.2020...@gmail.com>: > > > >> On 20/07/16 12:11, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > >>> On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 22:48:20 +1200, Daniel wrote in message > >>> <578f56f4.6060...@centurion.net.nz>: > >>> > Hi Rowland, > > We have a bug in amprolla that prevents all parts of the 4.2 > version from being available so the install fails. > > Add Debians jessie security repo temporarily to your sources.list > to get around the issue. > > Regards, > Daniel. > >>> ..as these conventions come and go these days, can you imagine > >>> Hillary giving the Donald, or Putin etc similar access to her > >>> email servers? ;oD Even temporarily? ;oD > >>> > >> Why bother posting a reply that had absolutely nothing to do with > >> the subject ? > > ..3 reasons, Devuan is much too naïve about our origin, > > Debian/systemd banana republic politics, Devuan is still much too > > naïve about relying on Debian resources such as security etc > > repositories, and AFAICT we still rely on the naïve assumption the > > Debian/systemd guys will be nice and carry on calling libsystemd0 > > libsystemd0 and not hide it somewhere else to sink us. > > > > ..the fact that things works temporarily, > > is precisely that, a temporary fact. > > > > I am beginning to think you are a troll. ..I'm perfectly happy with whatever you're thinking, as long as you carry on thinking, and act upon your beliefs, you are not going to be able to act on perfect knowledge until well after this systemd etc affair is over, regardless of who wins. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] "soft" dependencies on libraries (was: with or without libsystemd0)
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016, Simon Hobson wrote: > So, does anyone know if it's "hard" to use a library in a "see if > it's there and don't use it if it isn't" way rather than "just use > it and blow up if it's not there" which seems to be the norm ? it is not hard at all. in fact one can simply dlopen(3) AFAIK systemd even encourages this by publishing a .sym file within its source, detailing changes across versions: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/blob/master/src/libsystemd/libsystemd.sym ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] with or without libsystemd0
Le 20/07/2016 13:57, Rowland Penny a écrit : libsystemd0 is a .so file and (as far as I am aware) is just a library of subroutines. If you tried to directly run libsystemd0, it probably wouldn't do anything, but if another program was to use one of the 'subroutines' , it would do whatever the 'subroutine' was designed to do. The concern is what the library call actually performs. Does it perform it directly in the function or does this function invoke an application to do it? I think this is secondary. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Cannot install Samba on Jessie
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 12:15:27 +0100 Rowland Penny wrote: > On 20/07/16 12:11, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 22:48:20 +1200, Daniel wrote in message > > <578f56f4.6060...@centurion.net.nz>: > > > >> Hi Rowland, > >> > >> We have a bug in amprolla that prevents all parts of the 4.2 > >> version from being available so the install fails. > >> > >> Add Debians jessie security repo temporarily to your sources.list > >> to get around the issue. > >> > >> Regards, > >>Daniel. > > ..as these conventions come and go these days, can you imagine > > Hillary giving the Donald, or Putin etc similar access to her > > email servers? ;oD Even temporarily? ;oD > > > > Why bother posting a reply that had absolutely nothing to do with the > subject ? So he can start an argument on a list including people from widely varying nations, religions, and politics. But hey, he's cute and funny, right? SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] "soft" dependencies on libraries (was: with or without libsystemd0)
Rick Moen wrote: > This is a bit silly TBH, I'm finding most of your argument a bit silly too. So we might as well drop it >> It comes back to - how much is it "programmers are lazy" vs how much >> is "well actually it is real work". > > Please figure that out and report back to us. I'll mail you a shiny > pre-Ted Heath-era pre-decimalisation penny for your efforts. ;-> As I've already said, I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW because I'm not a programmer (at least not in that sort of area). But I am interested for genuine reasons - and I recall someone else asking that as well. I had hoped that someone here would know that - but I suspect they've all got bored and stopped reading this thread. So, does anyone know if it's "hard" to use a library in a "see if it's there and don't use it if it isn't" way rather than "just use it and blow up if it's not there" which seems to be the norm ? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Didier Kryn wrote: >I don't understand all your explanations, sorry :-) . I understood the > concept of "seat" as the combo you describe (graphics-keyboard-mouse). > > If the concept of "seat" includes serial terminals, I see no reason to not > include remote logins: until the middle of the 80's, serial terminals could > be far remote, by the means of modems, and, conceptually, this isn't > different of a telnet connection. If multi-seat involves all that, then the > concept is not relevant in this discussion. Which is relevant is wether the > user can push the shutdown button of the DM or "send" ctrl-alt-del, and > neither serial terminals, nor remote sessions can do that - except, possibly > remote graphic sessions through XDMCP. Yes, it is a bit of a side track, but the discussion is moving along with (as it appear to me) an implicit assumption that "multi seat" == "multiple graphics cards, keyboards, mice (KVM - Keyboard, Video, Mouse)". Taking a step back, this combination is just a subset of multi-seat. Whether graphics or serial terminal (which did in fact often do graphics BTW) the principle is the same : A user "does something", that something gets signalled to the computer via it's cable, the computer "does something" with that input, and then sends some updated display information up the cable to the display device. The only real difference is that with a serial terminal the interface between the "user interface" and "the system" is via serial, with a KVM the interface is over the system's internal bus.* To an extent, telnet and SSH are also a subset of this, though the mechanism is somewhat different. A correction though. While a serial terminal typically cannot reset the system (other than via commands), it is perfectly possible to run a remote KVM which *CAN* do that. Just extend the KVM cables, and if they won't go far enough of you can't run the cables, convert to something intermediate (eg KVM over IP) very much like connecting a serial terminal via a modem. What I struggle to understand is why "multiseat" as it's being discussed here (as an aside to the "can I shutdown from the login screen" discussion) should be considered so "hard". It's really (or shouldn't be) any different to (say) serial terminals - instantiate a "login process" for each instance of the hardware, "getty" on a serial line, choice of display manager (or whatever) for each KVM set. Or have I missed something obvious ? * As an aside, I recall reading many years ago that PCIe would allow the "PC" to be split up - with high speed serial links connecting the processing unit and the graphics card. It eventually arrived with Intel/Apple's Thunderbolt. Get a Thunderbolt equipped system, plug multiple Thunderbolt displays into it, plug a keyboard and mouse into each screen. Hmm, looks very very much like a modern day serial terminal ! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Cannot install Samba on Jessie
On 20/07/16 14:10, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 12:15:27 +0100, Rowland wrote in message <578f5d4f.2020...@gmail.com>: On 20/07/16 12:11, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 22:48:20 +1200, Daniel wrote in message <578f56f4.6060...@centurion.net.nz>: Hi Rowland, We have a bug in amprolla that prevents all parts of the 4.2 version from being available so the install fails. Add Debians jessie security repo temporarily to your sources.list to get around the issue. Regards, Daniel. ..as these conventions come and go these days, can you imagine Hillary giving the Donald, or Putin etc similar access to her email servers? ;oD Even temporarily? ;oD Why bother posting a reply that had absolutely nothing to do with the subject ? ..3 reasons, Devuan is much too naïve about our origin, Debian/systemd banana republic politics, Devuan is still much too naïve about relying on Debian resources such as security etc repositories, and AFAICT we still rely on the naïve assumption the Debian/systemd guys will be nice and carry on calling libsystemd0 libsystemd0 and not hide it somewhere else to sink us. ..the fact that things works temporarily, is precisely that, a temporary fact. I am beginning to think you are a troll. Rowland ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Grml] Is grml still alive
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 14:09:14 +0200, Alexander wrote in message <20160720120914.gc25...@smithers.snow-crash.org>: > On Wed, 20 Jul 2016, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 09:25:39 +0200, Klaus wrote in message > > <33d1c1ed-16ae-e76a-9086-e770b0d99...@arcor.de>: > > > > > > > > Michael Prokop schrieb am 19.07.2016 um 23:22: > > > > * Klaus Fuerstberger [Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 09:41:01AM +0200]: > > > > > > > >> as I could not post a blog comment at > > > >> http://blog.grml.org/archives/394-Is-Grml-still-alive.html I > > > >> want to leave a comment to this article here. > > > > > > > >> Many thanks for grml all over the years. Please keep on > > > >> providing new releases without systemd packages. There is no > > > >> need for this bloated piece of software for a text based > > > >> distribution for system admins. Maybe you can base grml on > > > >> devuan, a systemd-free, debian-based distribution in the > > > >> future? https://devuan.org/ I am sure that you will get help > > > >> there if there are any questions. > > > > > > > > JFTR, we definitely plan to ship Grml *with* systemd, because > > > > that is the way to go for us and also gives people remastering > > > > Grml even more flexibility WRT service startups, independent > > > > from our default configuration. > > > > > > You made Grml for people to be flexible in remastering it? I think > > > Grml was, and is complete as it is. If I want to add a daemon at > > > startup I need no systemd to successful remastering Grml. But of > > > course it is your decision. > > > > > > > If you're interested in a Grml flavor *without* systemd you're > > > > invited to work on that, you might be also interested in > > > > picking up file-rc as upstream respectively package maintainer > > > > (file-rc being the init system we relied on so far and where no > > > > maintainer seems to be present anymore, esp. once both Alex and > > > > me will orphan it). > > > > > > Thanks for the invitation to maintain Grml with sysvinit. But I > > > will not have the time to maintain such a big change alone. But > > > as grml is also listed in > > > http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#GNU.2FLinux_distributions > > > I send a copy of this post to the devuan mailing list. Maybe there > > > will be someone who is using Grml and interested to keep this > > > systemd free. > > > > ..looks like Grml is a loss: http://bts.grml.org/grml/issue1568 > > Pity. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=alternatives+to+udev&ia=web > > > > ..systemd, udev etc pötterication has no more tech etc merit than > > e.g. Erdogan's ban on Turk academics going on e.g. vacation abroad. > > > > Please don't Cc our mailinglist again. ..from which mailing list am I now being banished? ;o) I am aware I am not welcome on Debian mailing lists due to my knowledge of banana republic politics and how they brought systemd upon Debian, and therefore didn't cc any Debian mailing lists. ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Cannot install Samba on Jessie
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 12:15:27 +0100, Rowland wrote in message <578f5d4f.2020...@gmail.com>: > On 20/07/16 12:11, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 22:48:20 +1200, Daniel wrote in message > > <578f56f4.6060...@centurion.net.nz>: > > > >> Hi Rowland, > >> > >> We have a bug in amprolla that prevents all parts of the 4.2 > >> version from being available so the install fails. > >> > >> Add Debians jessie security repo temporarily to your sources.list > >> to get around the issue. > >> > >> Regards, > >>Daniel. > > ..as these conventions come and go these days, can you imagine > > Hillary giving the Donald, or Putin etc similar access to her > > email servers? ;oD Even temporarily? ;oD > > > > Why bother posting a reply that had absolutely nothing to do with the > subject ? ..3 reasons, Devuan is much too naïve about our origin, Debian/systemd banana republic politics, Devuan is still much too naïve about relying on Debian resources such as security etc repositories, and AFAICT we still rely on the naïve assumption the Debian/systemd guys will be nice and carry on calling libsystemd0 libsystemd0 and not hide it somewhere else to sink us. ..the fact that things works temporarily, is precisely that, a temporary fact. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] with or without libsystemd0
Didier Kryn writes: Le 20/07/2016 12:51, Rowland Penny a écrit : libsystemd0 doesn't run anything, it just provides code. Funny! What does this code "do". Is it just returning dummy values without doing anythig more? I have doubts. You misunderstand. The code doesn't contain dlopen(), execve() or other ways to run plugins, daemons, helpers, etc. If you link with it, WYSIWYG. It's quite unlike systemd, which loads so many plugins, daemons and helpers that you have no real way to S what that you G. I'd rather not have libsystemd0. Every unneeded file is one extra thing to check when there's a bug, etc. I'm just saying that libsystemd0 is not horrendous in the way systemd is. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] with or without libsystemd0
On 20/07/16 12:51, Didier Kryn wrote: Le 20/07/2016 12:51, Rowland Penny a écrit : libsystemd0 doesn't run anything, it just provides code. Funny! What does this code "do". Is it just returning dummy values without doing anythig more? I have doubts. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng libsystemd0 is a .so file and (as far as I am aware) is just a library of subroutines. If you tried to directly run libsystemd0, it probably wouldn't do anything, but if another program was to use one of the 'subroutines' , it would do whatever the 'subroutine' was designed to do. Of course, the above could be a load of rubbish, but it my understanding of what a .so file is for. Rowland ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] with or without libsystemd0
Le 20/07/2016 12:51, Rowland Penny a écrit : libsystemd0 doesn't run anything, it just provides code. Funny! What does this code "do". Is it just returning dummy values without doing anythig more? I have doubts. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Grml] Is grml still alive
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 09:25:39 +0200, Klaus wrote in message <33d1c1ed-16ae-e76a-9086-e770b0d99...@arcor.de>: > > Michael Prokop schrieb am 19.07.2016 um 23:22: > > * Klaus Fuerstberger [Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 09:41:01AM +0200]: > > > >> as I could not post a blog comment at > >> http://blog.grml.org/archives/394-Is-Grml-still-alive.html I want > >> to leave a comment to this article here. > > > >> Many thanks for grml all over the years. Please keep on providing > >> new releases without systemd packages. There is no need for this > >> bloated piece of software for a text based distribution for system > >> admins. Maybe you can base grml on devuan, a systemd-free, > >> debian-based distribution in the future? https://devuan.org/ I am > >> sure that you will get help there if there are any questions. > > > > JFTR, we definitely plan to ship Grml *with* systemd, because that > > is the way to go for us and also gives people remastering Grml even > > more flexibility WRT service startups, independent from our default > > configuration. > > You made Grml for people to be flexible in remastering it? I think > Grml was, and is complete as it is. If I want to add a daemon at > startup I need no systemd to successful remastering Grml. But of > course it is your decision. > > > If you're interested in a Grml flavor *without* systemd you're > > invited to work on that, you might be also interested in picking up > > file-rc as upstream respectively package maintainer (file-rc being > > the init system we relied on so far and where no maintainer seems to > > be present anymore, esp. once both Alex and me will orphan it). > > Thanks for the invitation to maintain Grml with sysvinit. But I will > not have the time to maintain such a big change alone. But as grml is > also listed in > http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#GNU.2FLinux_distributions > I send a copy of this post to the devuan mailing list. Maybe there > will be someone who is using Grml and interested to keep this systemd > free. ..looks like Grml is a loss: http://bts.grml.org/grml/issue1568 Pity. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=alternatives+to+udev&ia=web ..systemd, udev etc pötterication has no more tech etc merit than e.g. Erdogan's ban on Turk academics going on e.g. vacation abroad. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Cannot install Samba on Jessie
On 20/07/16 12:11, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 22:48:20 +1200, Daniel wrote in message <578f56f4.6060...@centurion.net.nz>: Hi Rowland, We have a bug in amprolla that prevents all parts of the 4.2 version from being available so the install fails. Add Debians jessie security repo temporarily to your sources.list to get around the issue. Regards, Daniel. ..as these conventions come and go these days, can you imagine Hillary giving the Donald, or Putin etc similar access to her email servers? ;oD Even temporarily? ;oD Why bother posting a reply that had absolutely nothing to do with the subject ? Rowland ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Cannot install Samba on Jessie
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 22:48:20 +1200, Daniel wrote in message <578f56f4.6060...@centurion.net.nz>: > Hi Rowland, > > We have a bug in amprolla that prevents all parts of the 4.2 version > from being available so the install fails. > > Add Debians jessie security repo temporarily to your sources.list to > get around the issue. > > Regards, > Daniel. ..as these conventions come and go these days, can you imagine Hillary giving the Donald, or Putin etc similar access to her email servers? ;oD Even temporarily? ;oD -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] with or without libsystemd0
On 20/07/16 11:44, Jaromil wrote: On Wed, 20 Jul 2016, fsmithred wrote: On 07/19/2016 06:10 PM, Rick Moen wrote: Saying libsystemd0 'does something' merely because higher-layer GNOME code probed it for a function and then decided to do or not do something based on what it found (my high-confidence surmise about your gvfs anecdote) entails very peculiar construing of the verb 'to do' -- and I'm pretty sure hardly anyone else uses the verb quite that way. Oh, you must have missed my last report. Surely, you would agree that executing an executable file is doing something. technically speaking, one doesn't even need to "run an executable" to execute code. Either by shared-lib linking or by dynamic loading (dlopen), a program linking a library can execute code provided by the library in its own stack. Such code will run with the exact same access than the calling code (access to file descriptors, processes etc.). For the past two years, people have been saying that libsystemd0 is just a library, and it does nothing if systemd is not installed or not running. I've been skeptical of such claims, but until yesterday, I wasn't sure. Neither one of those claims is accurate. Among the files that the libsystemd0 package provides, at least two of them are executable files. There may be more that aren't located in /lib/systemd/. [...] To summarize: libsystemd0 runs its program(s) even when systemd is not installed. This may be incorrect, as I don't see any execve() in libsystemd. What we can say is that libsystemd0 runs its code, called by other programs, even when systemd is not installed. No, I don't think that is correct, I think you could say that other programs can use code in libsystemd0, even if systemd isn't installed. libsystemd0 doesn't run anything, it just provides code. Rowland ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Cannot install Samba on Jessie
Hi Rowland, We have a bug in amprolla that prevents all parts of the 4.2 version from being available so the install fails. Add Debians jessie security repo temporarily to your sources.list to get around the issue. Regards, Daniel. On 20/07/16 21:03, Rowland Penny wrote: > > Who do have to speak to to get this fixed ? > > If you install Samba, you get 4.1.17, this Samba branch is EOL and it is > a security risk, this is why 4.2.0 is in debian security. > > If you go here: > > http://amprolla.devuan.org/merged/dists/jessie-security/main/binary-amd64/Packages > > > amongst everything else you will find: > > Package: samba > Version: 2:4.2.10+dfsg-0+deb8u3 > ... > > Package: samba-common > Source: samba > Version: 2:4.1.17+dfsg-2+deb8u2 > .. > > Package: samba-common-bin > Source: samba > Version: 2:4.2.10+dfsg-0+deb8u3 > ... > > > Why is samba-common still at 4.1.17 ? as far as I can see, this was > first pointed out in May and debian has 4.2.0 in security. > > Just how do I get this fixed ? > How do I get someone to replace the 4.1.17 samba-common package with the > 4.2.0 samba-common package. Once this is replaced, you should then be > able to install the samba 4.2.0 packages. > > Rowland > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Daniel Reurich Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. 021 797 722 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] with or without libsystemd0
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016, fsmithred wrote: > On 07/19/2016 06:10 PM, Rick Moen wrote: > > Saying libsystemd0 'does something' merely because higher-layer GNOME > > code probed it for a function and then decided to do or not do something > > based on what it found (my high-confidence surmise about your gvfs > > anecdote) entails very peculiar construing of the verb 'to do' -- and > > I'm pretty sure hardly anyone else uses the verb quite that way. > > > Oh, you must have missed my last report. Surely, you would agree that > executing an executable file is doing something. technically speaking, one doesn't even need to "run an executable" to execute code. Either by shared-lib linking or by dynamic loading (dlopen), a program linking a library can execute code provided by the library in its own stack. Such code will run with the exact same access than the calling code (access to file descriptors, processes etc.). > > For the past two years, people have been saying that libsystemd0 is just a > library, and it does nothing if systemd is not installed or not running. > I've been skeptical of such claims, but until yesterday, I wasn't sure. > Neither one of those claims is accurate. Among the files that the > libsystemd0 package provides, at least two of them are executable files. > There may be more that aren't located in /lib/systemd/. [...] > To summarize: libsystemd0 runs its program(s) even when systemd is not > installed. This may be incorrect, as I don't see any execve() in libsystemd. What we can say is that libsystemd0 runs its code, called by other programs, even when systemd is not installed. ciao! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Rick Moen writes: Funny that you should mention that: You might actually have seen that tale as related by _me_ on Risks Digest. The substance is similar but the wording unfamiliar. Could it possibly be that such a thing has happened twice? Surely not. (BTW, I had to explain a two-routers-in-one-19" thing in my hand luggage very thoroughly once. The odd appearance and solid steel construction made them jittery. But my double-edged razor blades went by without comment.) I believe the conventional solution is to locate such hardware behind locked doors and make sure few people have access to the power cables. Yes, mostly. It would be rare to permit physical console access (other than by highly trusted people) on a shared ISP machine or anything like that. In edge cases -- which really isn't likely -- one _might_ imagine a server that does significant work for remote users and simultaneously regular users were permitted use of a local console. Edge case is the right term, and the proverb goes "optimize for the common case". It's nice to have options and an orthogonal design, but please let those who want to have console GUI on a multiuser server spend the time to test that case and fix whatever needs fixing. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] with or without libsystemd0
On 07/19/2016 06:10 PM, Rick Moen wrote: > Saying libsystemd0 'does something' merely because higher-layer GNOME > code probed it for a function and then decided to do or not do something > based on what it found (my high-confidence surmise about your gvfs > anecdote) entails very peculiar construing of the verb 'to do' -- and > I'm pretty sure hardly anyone else uses the verb quite that way. Oh, you must have missed my last report. Surely, you would agree that executing an executable file is doing something. For the past two years, people have been saying that libsystemd0 is just a library, and it does nothing if systemd is not installed or not running. I've been skeptical of such claims, but until yesterday, I wasn't sure. Neither one of those claims is accurate. Among the files that the libsystemd0 package provides, at least two of them are executable files. There may be more that aren't located in /lib/systemd/. Here it is again. > One more test - instead of 'chmod -R 000 /lib/systemd' I tried 'chmod -x > /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd' thus disabling an executable binary file that > libsystemd0 provides. Dropped to runlevel 1, ctrl-d to return to desktop, > and removable drives no longer appear on the desktop. I suppose it's possible that gvfs just checks for the executable bit on /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd and doesn't actually run that program, but I doubt that. To summarize: libsystemd0 runs its program(s) even when systemd is not installed. -fsr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no): > Reminds me of the story about the airline captain who took the mike > to apologise to the passengers for a delay: "I was held up in the > security control, they were worried that I might seize control of > the airplane." Funny that you should mention that: You might actually have seen that tale as related by _me_ on Risks Digest. http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/25.01.html#subj8 > Imagine a host with hundreds of simultaneous users, such as (say) a > >shared ISP machine. You would absolutely not want just anyone to be > >able to shutdown or reboot the machine at will. Tberefore, the > >conventional solution to this problem is to require membership in a > >bespoke group for shutdown/reboot rights. > I believe the conventional solution is to locate such hardware > behind locked doors and make sure few people have access to the > power cables. Yes, mostly. It would be rare to permit physical console access (other than by highly trusted people) on a shared ISP machine or anything like that. In edge cases -- which really isn't likely -- one _might_ imagine a server that does significant work for remote users and simultaneously regular users were permitted use of a local console. As I mentioned about the San Francisco cybercafe's NFS/NIS master, _that_ host was physically in a locked room upstairs but the keyboard and monitor were deliberately accessible to the public downstairs -- as an example. Obviously rare, though. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Cannot install Samba on Jessie
Who do have to speak to to get this fixed ? If you install Samba, you get 4.1.17, this Samba branch is EOL and it is a security risk, this is why 4.2.0 is in debian security. If you go here: http://amprolla.devuan.org/merged/dists/jessie-security/main/binary-amd64/Packages amongst everything else you will find: Package: samba Version: 2:4.2.10+dfsg-0+deb8u3 ... Package: samba-common Source: samba Version: 2:4.1.17+dfsg-2+deb8u2 .. Package: samba-common-bin Source: samba Version: 2:4.2.10+dfsg-0+deb8u3 ... Why is samba-common still at 4.1.17 ? as far as I can see, this was first pointed out in May and debian has 4.2.0 in security. Just how do I get this fixed ? How do I get someone to replace the 4.1.17 samba-common package with the 4.2.0 samba-common package. Once this is replaced, you should then be able to install the samba 4.2.0 packages. Rowland ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Rick Moen writes: Remember, Unix is a multiuser operating system, and also one supporting both local and remote users, who would be annoyed by someone deciding to cut them off. Reminds me of the story about the airline captain who took the mike to apologise to the passengers for a delay: "I was held up in the security control, they were worried that I might seize control of the airplane." Imagine a host with hundreds of simultaneous users, such as (say) a shared ISP machine. You would absolutely not want just anyone to be able to shutdown or reboot the machine at will. Tberefore, the conventional solution to this problem is to require membership in a bespoke group for shutdown/reboot rights. I believe the conventional solution is to locate such hardware behind locked doors and make sure few people have access to the power cables. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Steve Litt writes: I hadn't thought much about several people using the same computer for different GUI tasks in the last 12 years. It happens. There are some family-shared tablets with >1 account. Rumour has it it's rare, although I've never spoken to anyone with numbers and without an NDA. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 19/07/2016 16:03, Simon Hobson a écrit : Didier Kryn wrote: I guess this is exactly what "multi-seat" means: severall keyboards and severall grapical cards connected to the same host. It certainly does not include serial terminals. Serial terminal fall in the category "multi-user", like ssh connections, not "multi-seat". I disagree there. In the context of "graphical consoles" being discussed I see where you are coming from, but serial terminals are just a sub class of multi-seat - while the "multiple graphics card-keyboard-mouse" setup is another sub-set. The key difference is that there is a long historyof multi-seat via serial (and more recently, network) terminals and (forexample) the serial etc systems inherently support multi-seat. The way the problem is solved for serial terminals is simple - abstractthe hardware into a stable device API, and run multiple instances of the"login" program (one per seat). "In theory" the same should be possible with the graphics-keybourd-mouse combo - EXCEPT that (AIUI) the software components involved were mostly written a) without that standard abstraction and b) without regard to the possibility of multiple instantiations. Just think how easy it musty have seemed at one point to just "intertwine" the software and hardware such that a single instance of "something" acted as the sole gatekeeper between the serial line and the machine - for a single seat. There'd then be discussions on how to work around that to enable multi-seat. As it happens, the serial line one was such a "no brainer" given how many different things used the serial lines - the solution we have must have seemed so obvious from the very beginning. I don't understand all your explanations, sorry :-) . I understood the concept of "seat" as the combo you describe (graphics-keyboard-mouse). If the concept of "seat" includes serial terminals, I see no reason to not include remote logins: until the middle of the 80's, serial terminals could be far remote, by the means of modems, and, conceptually, this isn't different of a telnet connection. If multi-seat involves all that, then the concept is not relevant in this discussion. Which is relevant is wether the user can push the shutdown button of the DM or "send" ctrl-alt-del, and neither serial terminals, nor remote sessions can do that - except, possibly remote graphic sessions through XDMCP. To come back to Slim, why should it behave differently of wtfdm and ask a password to halt/reboot? It makes no fundamental difference wether this is obtained by clicking a button or by entering a special text in the login window. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 19/07/2016 18:33, Rick Moen a écrit : You speak as if the consequences of host shutdown (or reboot) were trivial, but that is not the case: A local user who has shutdown the host has terminated all processes (not just his/her own), and made the entire machine unavailable to everyone. Seen that way, I would hope you'd understand that by default shutdown (and to a lesser extent reboot) should be a privileged operation. Yes. The person who has the key of the room where the computer sits. Simple policy tested along ages :-) Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Grml] Is grml still alive
Michael Prokop schrieb am 19.07.2016 um 23:22: > * Klaus Fuerstberger [Mon Jul 18, 2016 at 09:41:01AM +0200]: > >> as I could not post a blog comment at >> http://blog.grml.org/archives/394-Is-Grml-still-alive.html I want to >> leave a comment to this article here. > >> Many thanks for grml all over the years. Please keep on providing new >> releases without systemd packages. There is no need for this bloated >> piece of software for a text based distribution for system admins. >> Maybe you can base grml on devuan, a systemd-free, debian-based >> distribution in the future? https://devuan.org/ I am sure that you will >> get help there if there are any questions. > > JFTR, we definitely plan to ship Grml *with* systemd, because that > is the way to go for us and also gives people remastering Grml even > more flexibility WRT service startups, independent from our default > configuration. You made Grml for people to be flexible in remastering it? I think Grml was, and is complete as it is. If I want to add a daemon at startup I need no systemd to successful remastering Grml. But of course it is your decision. > If you're interested in a Grml flavor *without* systemd you're > invited to work on that, you might be also interested in picking up > file-rc as upstream respectively package maintainer (file-rc being > the init system we relied on so far and where no maintainer seems to > be present anymore, esp. once both Alex and me will orphan it). Thanks for the invitation to maintain Grml with sysvinit. But I will not have the time to maintain such a big change alone. But as grml is also listed in http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page#GNU.2FLinux_distributions I send a copy of this post to the devuan mailing list. Maybe there will be someone who is using Grml and interested to keep this systemd free. Regards Klaus ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
