[DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
On 19.09.17 15:56, J. Fahrner wrote: > I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they try to > enforce Devuan developers to offer Gnome. Devuans goal is to offer a Linux > system without systemd. Errr, Devuan's reason for _existing_ is to eschew systemd. Absolutely nothing can be allowed to stand in the way of delivering that. > And that's not possible for Gnome, because Gnome depends on systemd. > If you want Gnome you have to live with systemd. It's your choice. If that is true, then there is no Gnome in Devuan, and never can be? > If you want a Windows GUI you have to use Windows. But don't cry. While using LXDE in preference, I can't really tell any difference when using Gnome. Ditching the latter will not be noticed at the user level. I've downloaded devuan_jessie_1.0.0_i386_CD.iso, but not installed it yet. That is Gnome-free, and thus systemd-free? Erik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Yunit
Has anyone tried out Yunit on Devuan? It’s a community fork of the Unity 8 code that was abandoned after Ubuntu switched to Gnome for their next release. https://yunit.io/ https://yunit.io/yunit-packages-for-debian-stable-testing-and-unstable/ —Tom___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
On Wed, 2017-09-20 at 17:41 +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote: > On 19.09.17 15:56, J. Fahrner wrote: > > I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they try to > > And that's not possible for Gnome, because Gnome depends on systemd. > > If you want Gnome you have to live with systemd. It's your choice. > > If that is true, then there is no Gnome in Devuan, and never can be? Of course Gnome can be made available in Devuan too, see e.g. https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170918.102751.1992aff3.en.html https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170919.141940.3158b7ae.en.html The issue in Devuan is systemd, not specifically Gnome. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
On 20.09.17 09:55, Svante Signell wrote: > On Wed, 2017-09-20 at 17:41 +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote: > > On 19.09.17 15:56, J. Fahrner wrote: > > > I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they try to > > > > And that's not possible for Gnome, because Gnome depends on systemd. > > > If you want Gnome you have to live with systemd. It's your choice. > > > > If that is true, then there is no Gnome in Devuan, and never can be? > > Of course Gnome can be made available in Devuan too, see e.g. > > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170918.102751.1992aff3.en.html > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170919.141940.3158b7ae.en.html Neither those posts, nor yours, provide any relevant information. The question still stands: If "Gnome depends on systemd ... you want Gnome you have to live with systemd." is true, then there is no Gnome in Devuan, and never can be? Perhaps you'd like to address the validity of the dichotomy? Erik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Yunit
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 17:44:35 +1000, Tom wrote in message <97dde69e-3904-4abe-9acf-7fa2f104b...@gmail.com>: > Has anyone tried out Yunit on Devuan? It’s a community fork of the > Unity 8 code that was abandoned after Ubuntu switched to Gnome for > their next release. > > https://yunit.io/ > > https://yunit.io/yunit-packages-for-debian-stable-testing-and-unstable/ > > —Tom ..these https://forum.yunit.io/search.php?keywords=systemd and https://yunit.io/?s=systemd would if anything, suggest "systemd is not a worry here.", which might mean they might be or become agnostic on init systems. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Why all this systemd stuff ?
After upgrading to Devuan Jessie, curiosity made me chack in Synaptic that my system did not have any infection of the systemd pox.apt search systemd I was surprised to see all those systemd packages appear in the list of instalable packages. Why are there so many ? My source list: deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie main deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-updates main deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-security main dh-systemd/stable 1.24+devuan1.0 all golang-go-systemd-dev/stable 2-1 all libghc-libsystemd-journal-dev/stable 1.1.0-2 amd64 libghc-libsystemd-journal-doc/stable 1.1.0-2 all libghc-libsystemd-journal-prof/stable 1.1.0-2 amd64 libpam-systemd/stable 215-17+deb8u7 amd64 libsystemd-daemon-dev/stable 215-17+deb8u7 amd64 libsystemd-daemon0/stable 215-17+deb8u7 amd64 [residual-config] libsystemd-dev/stable 215-17+deb8u7 amd64 libsystemd-id128-0/stable 215-17+deb8u7 amd64 libsystemd-id128-dev/stable 215-17+deb8u7 amd64 libsystemd-journal-dev/stable 215-17+deb8u7 amd64 libsystemd-journal0/stable 215-17+deb8u7 amd64 libsystemd-login-dev/stable 215-17+deb8u7 amd64 libsystemd-login0/stable 215-17+deb8u7 amd64 [residual-config] libsystemd0/stable 215-17+deb8u7 amd64 live-config-systemd/stable 4.0.4-1 all python3-systemd/stable 215-17+deb8u7 amd64 systemd-cron/stable 1.3.1+ds1-2 all systemd-dbg/stable 215-17+deb8u7 amd64 systemd-gui/stable 1:3-2 all systemd-shim/stable 9-1 amd64 systemd-ui/stable 3-2 amd64 Cheers, Ron. -- In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us. -- Thich Nhat Hanh -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why all this systemd stuff ?
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 05:20:05AM -0400, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > After upgrading to Devuan Jessie, curiosity made me chack in Synaptic that my > system did not have any infection of the systemd pox.apt search systemd > > I was surprised to see all those systemd packages appear in the list of > instalable packages. > > Why are there so many ? Just because they are in the repo. Have you tried to install any of them? You shouldn't be able to do that, I suppose. HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse
Hi there On 18/09/17 22:35, dev wrote: Anyone know if there is an Apulse package for Devuan? I thought I had it working a couple months back but now, on a different machine, I cannot find the Apulse package. I don't remember how I got it working. Checking google of course brings up the git repo for apulse but there looks like some issues about sandboxing. https://github.com/i-rinat/apulse Anyone have it working on Devuan and Firefox 55.0.3 64bit ? How about FF and Jackd? I don't use Jack myself, but a lot people do. Regards, Rob ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote: > Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ? > I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu. There are in the Devuan repo 557 packages related to Gnome, 303 of which have Gnome in their name. So go ahead, install Gnome, and go in peace... Cheers, Ron. -- In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us. -- Thich Nhat Hanh -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why all this systemd stuff ?
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 10:29:08 +0100, KatolaZ wrote in message <20170920092908.gr23...@katolaz.homeunix.net>: > On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 05:20:05AM -0400, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > > After upgrading to Devuan Jessie, curiosity made me chack in > > Synaptic that my system did not have any infection of the systemd > > pox.apt search systemd > > > > I was surprised to see all those systemd packages appear in the > > list of instalable packages. > > > > Why are there so many ? > > Just because they are in the repo. ..they are in Debians repo. ..but should they be in our repo? As in, shouldn't aprolla weed out systemd stuff? > Have you tried to install any of > them? You shouldn't be able to do that, I suppose. > > HND > > KatolaZ > -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Yunit
> ..these https://forum.yunit.io/search.php?keywords=systemd > and https://yunit.io/?s=systemd would if anything, suggest > "systemd is not a worry here.", which might mean they might > be or become agnostic on init systems. That doesn’t surprise me, considering Ubuntu was using Unity for a long time before systemd appeared on the scene. —Tom ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
El 20/09/17 a les 11:48, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha escrit: > On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 09:02:37 +0200 > Narcis Garcia wrote: > >> Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ? >> I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu. > > There are in the Devuan repo 557 packages related to Gnome, 303 of which have > Gnome in their name. > > So go ahead, install Gnome, and go in peace... > I like to rely on distribution's packages and be able to open a bug when necessary about it. If Devuan's people say Gnome is not supported at all, this means I need some other way to work on this. Anyway, I'll give it a try. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why all this systemd stuff ?
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 10:29:08 +0100 KatolaZ wrote: > Have you tried to install any of them? No, I did not; I do not either try to poke rattlesnakes with a stick Cheers, Ron. -- In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us. -- Thich Nhat Hanh -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why all this systemd stuff ?
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 06:03:21AM -0400, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 10:29:08 +0100 > KatolaZ wrote: > > > Have you tried to install any of them? > > No, I did not; I do not either try to poke rattlesnakes with a stick > You shouldn't be scared of a toothless rattlesnake... ;) HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
Could Devuan project itself open a bug in bugzilla.gnome.org about issues without Systemd? El 18/09/17 a les 09:02, Narcis Garcia ha escrit: > Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ? > > I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
Am 2017-09-20 11:59, schrieb Narcis Garcia: I like to rely on distribution's packages and be able to open a bug when necessary about it. If Devuan's people say Gnome is not supported at all, this means I need some other way to work on this. IMHO this would be the best option for you. Why do you insist on using Devuan when you want Gnome? What is wrong with Debian in this case? Jochen ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
El 20/09/17 a les 12:43, J. Fahrner ha escrit: > Am 2017-09-20 11:59, schrieb Narcis Garcia: > >> I like to rely on distribution's packages and be able to open a bug when >> necessary about it. If Devuan's people say Gnome is not supported at >> all, this means I need some other way to work on this. > > IMHO this would be the best option for you. Why do you insist on using > Devuan when you want Gnome? What is wrong with Debian in this case? > I prefer the best (for me) of all worlds: No Systemd, but Yes Gnome. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:50:55PM +0200, Narcis Garcia wrote: > El 20/09/17 a les 12:43, J. Fahrner ha escrit: > > Am 2017-09-20 11:59, schrieb Narcis Garcia: > > > >> I like to rely on distribution's packages and be able to open a bug when > >> necessary about it. If Devuan's people say Gnome is not supported at > >> all, this means I need some other way to work on this. > > > > IMHO this would be the best option for you. Why do you insist on using > > Devuan when you want Gnome? What is wrong with Debian in this case? > > > I prefer the best (for me) of all worlds: No Systemd, but Yes Gnome. Then you have to go and complain with the GNOME guys, who unfortunately are doing all they can to make you unhappy (and without a good reason, IMHO)... My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 12:50:55 +0200 Narcis Garcia wrote: > I prefer the best (for me) of all worlds: No Systemd, but Yes Gnome. Which is like wanting unprotected sex, but without sexually transmitted diseases... Cheers, Ron. -- Sodd's Second Law: Sooner or later, the worst possible set of circumstances is bound to occur. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why all this systemd stuff ?
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:15:11 +0100 KatolaZ wrote: > > > Have you tried to install any of them? > > No, I did not; I do not either try to poke rattlesnakes with a stick > You shouldn't be scared of a toothless rattlesnake How do you know a priori that the snake is toothless ? Cheers, Ron. -- Sodd's Second Law: Sooner or later, the worst possible set of circumstances is bound to occur. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Yunit
* On 2017 20 Sep 04:01 -0500, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > ..these https://forum.yunit.io/search.php?keywords=systemd > and https://yunit.io/?s=systemd would if anything, suggest > "systemd is not a worry here.", which might mean they might > be or become agnostic on init systems. I read the forum post link as though the developer will have it completely supporting (depending on?) systemd. The second link returns nothing found for me. I am still puzzled how a desktop GUI can depend on init system. Services, yes, an init, not so much. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why all this systemd stuff ?
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 07:01:20AM -0400, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:15:11 +0100 > KatolaZ wrote: > > > > > Have you tried to install any of them? > > > > No, I did not; I do not either try to poke rattlesnakes with a stick > > > You shouldn't be scared of a toothless rattlesnake > > How do you know a priori that the snake is toothless ? > Because you don't have the systemd package in the repo, provided that you are using devuan repos exclusively. So none of those packages cannot bring systemd in (again, unless you are mixing repos, in which case you are on your own). Some of them might bring libsystemd1 in, but I am tired of repeating again and again that that is totally harmless. HTH KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Yunit
Am 2017-09-20 13:08, schrieb Nate Bargmann: I am still puzzled how a desktop GUI can depend on init system. Services, yes, an init, not so much. Because systemd is not only an init system, it provides a lot of services too. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 07:00:06AM -0400, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 12:50:55 +0200 > Narcis Garcia wrote: > > > I prefer the best (for me) of all worlds: No Systemd, but Yes Gnome. > > Which is like wanting unprotected sex, but without sexually transmitted > diseases... So you need some extra work: you need to have tested all partners you don't immediately trust. More effort, and you need to be careful or you'll miss something, but still doable. It's recommended to have sex with partners who are already known to be STD-free. (And yeah, an analogy that makes systemd a disease is fitting...) Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ I've read an article about how lively happy music boosts ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ productivity. You can read it, too, you just need the ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ right music while doing so. I recommend Skepticism ⠈⠳⣄ (funeral doom metal). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why all this systemd stuff ?
Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI - 20.09.17, 07:01: > On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:15:11 +0100 > > KatolaZ wrote: > > > > Have you tried to install any of them? > > > > > > No, I did not; I do not either try to poke rattlesnakes with a stick > > > > You shouldn't be scared of a toothless rattlesnake > > How do you know a priori that the snake is toothless ? You poke it with a very long stick… :) -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 13:35:42 +0200 Adam Borowski wrote: > And yeah, an analogy that makes systemd a disease is fitting... I know, been refering to it for ages as a pox... Cheers, Ron. -- Withholding information is the essence of tyranny. Control of the flow of information is the tool of the dictatorship. -- Bruce Coville -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Yunit
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 06:08:46 -0500, Nate wrote in message <20170920110846.ge3...@n0nb.us>: > * On 2017 20 Sep 04:01 -0500, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > ..these https://forum.yunit.io/search.php?keywords=systemd > > and https://yunit.io/?s=systemd would if anything, suggest > > "systemd is not a worry here.", which might mean they might > > be or become agnostic on init systems. > > I read the forum post link as though the developer will have it > completely supporting ..it would need that to be agnostic. > (depending on?) systemd. ..on reflection, I think you're right, right there. > The second link returns nothing found for me. > > I am still puzzled how a desktop GUI can depend on init system. > Services, yes, an init, not so much. ..systemd is an init system in about the same way the KKK are "nice people on both sides." ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 07:38:28AM -0400, Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 13:35:42 +0200 > Adam Borowski wrote: > > > And yeah, an analogy that makes systemd a disease is fitting... > > I know, been refering to it for ages as a pox... It's funnier in Polish where colloquial words for STDs carry some additional implications. Not sure what's the equivalent in English or Paraguaian[1]. Meow! [1]. I don't mean uncertainty wrt which of the two Iberian languages you use (which I never manage to remember), but that pre-Internet swearwords tend to be local. Like, the language in Quebec uses church utensils... -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ I've read an article about how lively happy music boosts ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ productivity. You can read it, too, you just need the ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ right music while doing so. I recommend Skepticism ⠈⠳⣄ (funeral doom metal). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Yunit
Le 20/09/2017 à 13:08, Nate Bargmann a écrit : I am still puzzled how a desktop GUI can depend on init system. Services, yes, an init, not so much. Excellent argument to oppose to those peole still claiming Systemd is an init system. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On 09/18/2017 03:02 AM, Narcis Garcia wrote: > Is there some published procedure to install Gnome in Devuan 8/9 ? > > I need this to migrate desktop users from Debian & Ubuntu. > While as others have said Gnome is an intertwined mess with systemd, there has been a continuing effort by dantrell to keep it mostly usable without systemd in Gentoo. https://github.com/dantrell/gentoo-project-gnome-without-systemd Following the same path might be possible in Devuan, but I see it as a continual battle as it appears that Gnome swallows more and more of the "good ideas" of systemd at each turn. I really can't see much demand for Gnome in Devuan based on the response here, but I think that is understandable given that Gnome was the shoehorn that was used to fill almost everybody's Linux boots with the systemd excrement. Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Yunit
> On 20 Sep 2017, at 21:08, Nate Bargmann wrote: > > * On 2017 20 Sep 04:01 -0500, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > >> ..these https://forum.yunit.io/search.php?keywords=systemd >> and https://yunit.io/?s=systemd would if anything, suggest >> "systemd is not a worry here.", which might mean they might >> be or become agnostic on init systems. > > I read the forum post link as though the developer will have it > completely supporting (depending on?) systemd. Perhaps if we let the developers know there are users wanting it in Devuan sans systemd, they might reconsider that approach? I will setup an ASCII test box sometime this week or next to try it out, as the Debian packages appear to be only for stable onwards. —Tom ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse
On 09/20/2017 04:47 AM, Rob van der Putten wrote: >> >> Anyone have it working on Devuan and Firefox 55.0.3 64bit ? > > How about FF and Jackd? > I don't use Jack myself, but a lot people do. IIRC Jack, ALSA and Pulseaudio are three completely different software stacks. Firefox, as compiled from mozilla, will only work with Pulseaudio. Their official reasoning[1] was: "Make Pulse Audio a hard dependency on Linux so that we reduce the problems and maintenance associated with maintaining multiple audio backends." Whatever rationale is behind that decision is beyond me. I only know Firefox worked perfectly for me for over a decade and now it does not. I guess I am switching to Chrome. Another sad day for FOSS. Many of my online classes do not allow downloading of the media to view in Mplayer or VLC so I am really stuck. [1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1247056 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
> On Sep 20, 2017, at 4:16 AM, Erik Christiansen > wrote: > > On 20.09.17 09:55, Svante Signell wrote: >> On Wed, 2017-09-20 at 17:41 +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote: >>> On 19.09.17 15:56, J. Fahrner wrote: I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they try to >> And that's not possible for Gnome, because Gnome depends on systemd. If you want Gnome you have to live with systemd. It's your choice. >>> >>> If that is true, then there is no Gnome in Devuan, and never can be? >> >> Of course Gnome can be made available in Devuan too, see e.g. >> >> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170918.102751.1992aff3.en.html >> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170919.141940.3158b7ae.en.html > > Neither those posts, nor yours, provide any relevant information. The > question still stands: > > If "Gnome depends on systemd ... you want Gnome you have to live with > systemd." is true, then there is no Gnome in Devuan, and never can be? > > Perhaps you'd like to address the validity of the dichotomy? Your premise that “Gnome depends on systemd” is false. The current *packages* may depend on systemd, but I’ll bet they can be patched and rebuilt without systemd. Give it a try. Please build the gnome packages from scratch and report back with where compilation fails. Better yet, file bugs with patches to create a set of Gnome packages that don’t depend on systemd. jf -- John Franklin frank...@tux.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
> On Sep 20, 2017, at 2:06 AM, Didier Kryn wrote: > > Le 19/09/2017 à 15:00, Narcis Garcia a écrit : >> 1. Gnome is the desktop environment that better fits my criteria for >> unexperienced and normal people. > >Are you kidding? I consider myself an experienced user and cannot make > sense of either Gnome or KDE in their "modern" incarnations. You’re not alone, and this is why Linux Mint Cinnamon has become such a popular DE. That said, there are plenty who either like it or at least have gotten used to it. If we could get Gnome working here, it would attract more users to Devuan. jf -- John Franklin frank...@tux.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
Am 2017-09-20 17:19, schrieb John Franklin: Your premise that “Gnome depends on systemd” is false. The current *packages* may depend on systemd, but I’ll bet they can be patched and rebuilt without systemd. Give it a try. Please build the gnome packages from scratch and report back with where compilation fails. Better yet, file bugs with patches to create a set of Gnome packages that don’t depend on systemd. Who should do that? Why not YOU? Why are you demanding this on someone else? This is free software. Everyone can do this. Jochen ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 at 11:19:51 -0400 John Franklin wrote: > Your premise that “Gnome depends on systemd” is false. The current > *packages* may depend on systemd, but I’ll bet they can be patched and > rebuilt without systemd. > > Give it a try. Please build the gnome packages from scratch and report back > with where compilation fails. Better yet, file bugs with patches to create > a set of Gnome packages that don’t depend on systemd. If having Gnome work without systemd entails patching it's sources and recompiling the whole bunch of packages, then you just proved Gnome does indeed depend on systemd, not just on the package level, but on the code level. -- Alessandro Selli http://alessandro.route-add.net VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiavi PGP/GPG keys: B7FD89FD, 4A904FD9 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
> On Sep 20, 2017, at 11:33 AM, J. Fahrner wrote: > > Am 2017-09-20 17:19, schrieb John Franklin: > >> Your premise that “Gnome depends on systemd” is false. The current >> *packages* may depend on systemd, but I’ll bet they can be patched and >> rebuilt without systemd. >> Give it a try. Please build the gnome packages from scratch and report >> back with where compilation fails. Better yet, file bugs with patches >> to create a set of Gnome packages that don’t depend on systemd. > > Who should do that? Why not YOU? Why are you demanding this on someone else? > This is free software. Everyone can do this. Getting Gnome working on Devuan is not one of my needs, but it is his. I’m encouraging him to collect some hard data so a solution can be crafted, instead of carrying on a pointless argument based on a false premise. jf -- John Franklin frank...@tux.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
> On Sep 20, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Alessandro Selli > wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 at 11:19:51 -0400 > John Franklin wrote: > > >> Your premise that “Gnome depends on systemd” is false. The current >> *packages* may depend on systemd, but I’ll bet they can be patched and >> rebuilt without systemd. >> >> Give it a try. Please build the gnome packages from scratch and report back >> with where compilation fails. Better yet, file bugs with patches to create >> a set of Gnome packages that don’t depend on systemd. > > If having Gnome work without systemd entails patching it's sources and > recompiling the whole bunch of packages, then you just proved Gnome does > indeed depend on systemd, not just on the package level, but on the code > level. The phase “depends on systemd” is being used in two extreme contexts here. The first is a technical context, where “apt-get install ” fails because of a dependency, and may be trivially fixed with different build options. The second is “fundamentally and irreparably depends on systemd.” For example, Network Manager can be built by removing two systemd dependencies from the debian/control file. It clearly falls in the first category. [Citation required.] What else “depends on systemd”? jf -- John Franklin frank...@tux.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:31:38 -0400 John Franklin wrote: > That said, there are plenty who either like it or at least have > gotten used to it. If we could get Gnome working here, it would > attract more users to Devuan. Serious question: Do we want that kind of user? Somebody who knows enough to discern a difference between Gnome and Xfce, but doesn't understand how interchangeable WMDEs are, nor how much work it would take Devuan to keep on undoing all the systemd dependencies Gnome will doubtlessly keep sewing into Gnome? You can't please all the people all the time, and prioritization of resources means some are simply going to choose other distros. SteveT Steve Litt September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 09:59:10AM -0500, dev wrote: > IIRC Jack, ALSA and Pulseaudio are three completely different software > stacks. Firefox, as compiled from mozilla, will only work with > Pulseaudio. Their official reasoning[1] was: > > "Make Pulse Audio a hard dependency on Linux so that we >reduce the problems and maintenance associated with >maintaining multiple audio backends." > > Whatever rationale is behind that decision is beyond me. > I only know Firefox worked perfectly for me for over a decade > and now it does not. I really don't understand what Mozilla guys are smoking. For any local audio, ALSA is _strictly_ more likely to work than PulseAudio: as a layer atop ALSA, Pulse requires it -- thus, any Linux[1] machine with working Pulse also has working ALSA. In the past, neither OSS nor ALSA could handle multiple streams on "cheap" (ie, any modern) hardware, but that's been fixed for a decade. On the other hand, out of four screen-attached machines I've used recently, Pulse works on exactly zero. > I guess I am switching to Chrome. Another sad day for FOSS. You don't want that pile of spyware, it lacks any basic privacy extensions Firefox has. > Many of my online classes do not allow downloading of the media > to view in Mplayer or VLC so I am really stuck. If you must, have Chrome installed for just those classes. I for one need it for my bank as its page is Chrome (and possibly IE) only. Another WTF. Meow! [1]. In-kernel OSS supports only a handful of early-90s sound cards that are also supported by ALSA; out-of-tree OSS4 doesn't TTBMK support anything ALSA doesn't know either -- and OSS4 sucks so badly it is not a part of stretch/ascii anymore. On the other hand, BSD has OSS but not ALSA. -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ I've read an article about how lively happy music boosts ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ productivity. You can read it, too, you just need the ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ right music while doing so. I recommend Skepticism ⠈⠳⣄ (funeral doom metal). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse
Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl): > > I guess I am switching to Chrome. Another sad day for FOSS. > > You don't want that pile of spyware, it lacks any basic privacy extensions > Firefox has. At _least_ try Chromium before adopting a proprietary browser (Chrome). I don't know why so many Linux users think _only_ of the proprietary Google Chrome Web browser and not the open source Chromium browser of which Google Chrome is an odd and untrustworthy variant? It's dispiriting. The Chromium extensions programming interface is impoverished compared to XUL / XPCOM, but uMatrix and uBlock Origin are decent. > If you must, have Chrome installed for just those classes. I for one need > it for my bank as its page is Chrome (and possibly IE) only. Another WTF. Out of curiosity, do you know how they implement this? If it's merely vetting user-agent, there's an obvious countermeasure of forging user-agent. Sometimes, it's that simple. I figure no, in this case, because you'd have tried that, but am mentioning it pro bono publico. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:47:05 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl): > > > > I guess I am switching to Chrome. Another sad day for FOSS. > > > > You don't want that pile of spyware, it lacks any basic privacy > > extensions Firefox has. > > At _least_ try Chromium before adopting a proprietary browser > (Chrome). I don't know why so many Linux users think _only_ of the > proprietary Google Chrome Web browser and not the open source > Chromium browser of which Google Chrome is an odd and untrustworthy > variant? It's dispiriting. All web browsers suck, and take turns at being the champions of suckatude. For the last three months, Chromium has sucked the least for me. I felt guilty because it was a Google product, but Rick has a point: ChromIUM is a free software product. If you use Google maps (I unfortunately do), Chromium does a much better job with them than the other browsers. I might change my mind in a few weeks, but for now, Chromium seems to be the least sucky browser. SteveT Steve Litt September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 11:47:05AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl): > > > > I guess I am switching to Chrome. Another sad day for FOSS. > > > > You don't want that pile of spyware, it lacks any basic privacy extensions > > Firefox has. > > At _least_ try Chromium before adopting a proprietary browser (Chrome). > I don't know why so many Linux users think _only_ of the proprietary > Google Chrome Web browser and not the open source Chromium browser of > which Google Chrome is an odd and untrustworthy variant? It's > dispiriting. Most people seem to be using these two names interchangeably, even though, as you rightfully point, they do differ. I did not go into a tangent of correcting this as it was not relevant to bashing PulseAudio. Obviously, I'm not going to install such a massive backdoor on any non-contained machine. Heck, even on that test Windows partition I have but boot once in half a year it's something-Iron rather than unmodified Chrome. But, chromium as in Debian/Devuan is not good either: https://bugs.debian.org/792580 claims it phones home even in "incognito" mode -- and not just to update extensions or some such, but to freaking Google Analytics. > The Chromium extensions programming interface is impoverished compared > to XUL / XPCOM, but uMatrix and uBlock Origin are decent. These don't seem anywhere as functional as Adblock (real, not WebExtension) or Request Policy. Meow! -- ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ I've read an article about how lively happy music boosts ⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ productivity. You can read it, too, you just need the ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ right music while doing so. I recommend Skepticism ⠈⠳⣄ (funeral doom metal). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
> On Sep 20, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:31:38 -0400 > John Franklin wrote: > > >> That said, there are plenty who either like it or at least have >> gotten used to it. If we could get Gnome working here, it would >> attract more users to Devuan. > > Serious question: Do we want that kind of user? Somebody who knows > enough to discern a difference between Gnome and Xfce, but doesn't > understand how interchangeable WMDEs are, nor how much work it would > take Devuan to keep on undoing all the systemd dependencies Gnome will > doubtlessly keep sewing into Gnome? > > You can't please all the people all the time, and prioritization of > resources means some are simply going to choose other distros. Yes, we do want them, because we want enough users of Gnome here so we can tell the Gnome project to make systemd conditional in their source tree, and to accept the patches we (and others) will send upstream. We have to be able to show tangible demand for a systemd-free Gnome shell, and the easiest way is popcon. Of course, I’d like to think some of those users would, in fact, know the difference between Gnome and XFCE, prefer Gnome (for whatever reason), and have the technical skills to help keep it patched. jf -- John Franklin frank...@tux.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome?
On 2017-09-20 14:22, John Franklin wrote: On Sep 20, 2017, at 2:07 PM, Steve Litt wrote: On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 11:31:38 -0400 John Franklin wrote: That said, there are plenty who either like it or at least have gotten used to it. If we could get Gnome working here, it would attract more users to Devuan. Serious question: Do we want that kind of user? Somebody who knows enough to discern a difference between Gnome and Xfce, but doesn't understand how interchangeable WMDEs are, nor how much work it would take Devuan to keep on undoing all the systemd dependencies Gnome will doubtlessly keep sewing into Gnome? You can't please all the people all the time, and prioritization of resources means some are simply going to choose other distros. Yes, we do want them, because we want enough users of Gnome here so we can tell the Gnome project to make systemd conditional in their source tree, and to accept the patches we (and others) will send upstream. We have to be able to show tangible demand for a systemd-free Gnome shell, and the easiest way is popcon. Of course, I’d like to think some of those users would, in fact, know the difference between Gnome and XFCE, prefer Gnome (for whatever reason), and have the technical skills to help keep it patched. jf If you (or someone else) puts a team together to do the work - yeah, I'm pretty sure it will take a team to sort through all that gnome has to 'offer - it would probably find it's way into Devuan. Since there aren't even enough devs to get ascii out the door, I doubt you'll find anyone wanting to scratch that itch in this camp. FYI, we not only have systemd refugees here, we have plenty of gnome refugees too. The closest Devuan comes to gnome is a version of cinnamon maintained by antofox at https://git.devuan.org/AntoFox/Cinnamon golinux (who parted ways with gnome2 when gnome3 arrived) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse
> All web browsers suck, and take turns at being the champions of > suckatude. For the last three months, Chromium has sucked the least for > me. I felt guilty because it was a Google product, but Rick has a > point: ChromIUM is a free software product. > > If you use Google maps (I unfortunately do), Chromium does a much > better job with them than the other browsers. > > I might change my mind in a few weeks, but for now, Chromium seems to > be the least sucky browser. > No, Waterfox is the least crappy browser. It is based off of firefox but without many of the ethical and security pitfalls of firefox. Many things are disabled that firefox uses that are insecure. Plus, noscript! boom and done. Noscript is not on chromium or google chrome for an obvious reason. Noscript is the reason I will always use waterfox or a modified firefox over anything else. > SteveT > > Steve Litt > September 2017 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical > Troubleshooting Brand new, second edition > http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse
Adam Borowski - 20.09.17, 21:21: > On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 11:47:05AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > > Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl): […] > But, chromium as in Debian/Devuan is not good either: > https://bugs.debian.org/792580 claims it phones home even in "incognito" > mode -- and not just to update extensions or some such, but to freaking > Google Analytics. It is always good to verify such claims. I restarted Chromium 60 (Debian Sid) with disabled uBlock Origin. No network activity at all according to: chrome://net-internals/#sockets There just is no open socket. > > The Chromium extensions programming interface is impoverished compared > > to XUL / XPCOM, but uMatrix and uBlock Origin are decent. > > These don't seem anywhere as functional as Adblock (real, not WebExtension) > or Request Policy. Huh? I think uBlock Origin is superior to Adblock in every aspect. Thanks, -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse
> Huh? I think uBlock Origin is superior to Adblock in every aspect. > > Thanks, I would agree adblock is much more memory intensive and ethically unsound. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
> The phase “depends on systemd” is being used in two extreme contexts here. > The first is a technical context, where “apt-get install ” fails > because of a dependency, and may be trivially fixed with different build > options. The second is “fundamentally and irreparably depends on systemd.” > > For example, Network Manager can be built by removing two systemd > dependencies from the debian/control file. It clearly falls in the first > category. > > [Citation required.] What else “depends on systemd”? > > jf I would actually like network manager to have its garbage systemd dependencies removed. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse
Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl): > Most people seem to be using these two names interchangeably, even though, > as you rightfully point, they do differ. I did not go into a tangent of > correcting this as it was not relevant to bashing PulseAudio. 'Ah, the rare valid point', as Josh Lyman said in one of my favourite West Wing episodes. Fair enough. > But, chromium as in Debian/Devuan is not good either: > https://bugs.debian.org/792580 claims it phones home even in "incognito" > mode -- and not just to update extensions or some such, but to freaking > Google Analytics. No kidding! Wow, I didn't know that. This bug nicely underlines the point (that I often make, FWIW) that Google Chrome / Chromium is from a firm much more massively in conflict of interest than is the sponsor of Firefox (though the funding of Mozilla, Inc. creates a significant problem, too). Good work on the part of the bug-submitter who thought to vet Chromium's behaviour using Wireshark. That should probably be a standard check on all code coming from ad-supported commercial enterprises. > > The Chromium extensions programming interface is impoverished compared > > to XUL / XPCOM, but uMatrix and uBlock Origin are decent. > > These don't seem anywhere as functional as Adblock (real, not WebExtension) > or Request Policy. No, they're not. That's why I said they're merely 'decent', but hindered by Chromium's impoverished extensions programming interface (soon to be matched by Firefox's ;-> ). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse
Quoting zap (calmst...@posteo.de): > I would agree adblock is much more memory intensive and ethically unsound. ABP's 'Acceptable Ads' whitelisting is pretty questionable. OTOH, it's openly documented (e.g., https://adblockplus.org/acceptable-ads) and easy to revert. Just uncheck the 'Allow nonintrusive advertising' checkbox. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
On 2017-09-20 15:09, zap wrote: The phase “depends on systemd” is being used in two extreme contexts here. The first is a technical context, where “apt-get install ” fails because of a dependency, and may be trivially fixed with different build options. The second is “fundamentally and irreparably depends on systemd.” For example, Network Manager can be built by removing two systemd dependencies from the debian/control file. It clearly falls in the first category. [Citation required.] What else “depends on systemd”? jf I would actually like network manager to have its garbage systemd dependencies removed. ___ It's already been done golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Vivaldi
Since there is currently some discussion about Chrome/Chromium security concerns, is Vivaldi (based on Chromium code I understand) also affected with the same security issues? If no one knows, what procedure do I go through to determine the answer myself (with the understanding that I am basically a computer idiot, but I quit Windows entirely in 2004 and became an Ubuntu user until earlier this year when I jumped on to Devuan). airmoose ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse
On 09/20/2017 01:47 PM, Rick Moen wrote: > At _least_ try Chromium before adopting a proprietary browser (Chrome). > I don't know why so many Linux users think _only_ of the proprietary > Google Chrome Web browser and not the open source Chromium browser of > which Google Chrome is an odd and untrustworthy variant? It's > dispiriting. Because the last time I tried Chromium it's functionality was about on par with Konquerer and I wrote it off. Perhaps it's matured nicely? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse
Quoting dev (devua...@gmail.com): > Because the last time I tried Chromium its functionality was about on > par with Konquerer's and I wrote it off. Perhaps it's matured nicely? Criteria and opinions differ, of course, but I'd say it's at least worth your time to recheck. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 15:42:18 -0500, dev wrote in message : > > > On 09/20/2017 01:47 PM, Rick Moen wrote: > > > > At _least_ try Chromium before adopting a proprietary browser > > (Chrome). I don't know why so many Linux users think _only_ of the > > proprietary Google Chrome Web browser and not the open source > > Chromium browser of which Google Chrome is an odd and untrustworthy > > variant? It's dispiriting. > > Because the last time I tried Chromium it's functionality was about on > par with Konquerer and I wrote it off. Perhaps it's matured nicely? ..sort of, if you're okay with Google squealing to NSA et al on you and your web browsing habits, then yes, it can be said to have matured nicely, it is a (too darn) nice and slick web browser (for your own good), and so well behaved you wind up hoping your own wishful dreams are the truth and that everything you learn here on web browsing security and privacy, are conspiracy theories. ..do we have a good bookmark conversion or management utility? -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Yunit
* On 2017 20 Sep 06:36 -0500, J. Fahrner wrote: > Am 2017-09-20 13:08, schrieb Nate Bargmann: > > >I am still puzzled how a desktop GUI can depend on init system. > >Services, yes, an init, not so much. > > Because systemd is not only an init system, it provides a lot of services > too. I'll admit to not following its development the past couple of years or longer. What services does it offer that aren't available through stand-alone daemons besides logind and journalctl? - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Yunit
On Wednesday 20 September 2017 at 23:41:15, Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2017 20 Sep 06:36 -0500, J. Fahrner wrote: > > Am 2017-09-20 13:08, schrieb Nate Bargmann: > > >I am still puzzled how a desktop GUI can depend on init system. > > >Services, yes, an init, not so much. > > > > Because systemd is not only an init system, it provides a lot of services > > too. > > I'll admit to not following its development the past couple of years or > longer. What services does it offer that aren't available through > stand-alone daemons besides logind and journalctl? https://www.linux.com/learn/understanding-and-using-systemd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/ Antony. -- I own three Windows books, published by O'Reilly. They are "Windows Annoyances", "Office 97 Annoyances" and "Windows 98 Annoyances". That pretty much sums it up for me. Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Vivaldi
Le 20/09/2017 22:26, airmoose a écrit : > Since there is currently some discussion about Chrome/Chromium security > concerns, is Vivaldi (based on Chromium code I understand) also affected > with the same security issues? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivaldi_(web_browser) https://vivaldi.com/privacy/vivaldi-end-user-license-agreement/ Vivaldi is Proprietary software. Don't trust what can't be audited. Chromium is maybe "open source" but the permissive licenses that it has permits to not share the source of the distributed binaries. Like said at the beginning it can become Proprietary software thus you can't audit it if it's closed. Has for the chromium security problems that you mentioned chromium is known for not being for the user: https://trisquel.info/en/forum/chromium-unconditionally-downloads-binary-blob > > If no one knows, what procedure do I go through to determine the answer > myself (with the understanding that I am basically a computer idiot, but > I quit Windows entirely in 2004 and became an Ubuntu user until earlier > this year when I jumped on to Devuan). Glad to ear that. If you are new to the free software world I suggest Icecat has a browser, then activate or deactivate what addons you want in it. One addon that I recommend if you want to go the easy way is "µblock origin" and if you want the hard but secure way I suggest "umatrix". Good luck. > > airmoose > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Librement BERNARD ENG: Please be kind enough to use GPG for our future conversations: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/ If this email isn't PGP signed then it isn't mine. -If you can't compile it dump it. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Vivaldi
Quoting airmoose (airmo...@velo-circus.com): > Since there is currently some discussion about Chrome/Chromium > security concerns, is Vivaldi (based on Chromium code I understand) > also affected with the same security issues? It's proprietary. Thus, it's the sponsoring company's black box where security matters are concerned, and (on a different subject) at risk of being EOLed without anyone else having the legal right to take over maintenence). Maybe Vivaldi Technology AS is the world's most benevolent company. They're Norwegian, so they can't be all bad.[1] But with proprietary code, you are in a position of inherent need to trust some firm. In the subcase where it's not merely proprietary but also binary-only, outsiders can do only limited checking. (Vivaldi browser is binary-only.) My personal FAQ pages include an item that lists all known Web browsers for Linux, with ultra-brief characterisation of each. These are not reviews, but might be useful as a point of departure if, say, you wish to compare open-source Web browsers on Linux and wished to not spend time on proprietary ones. http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/kicking.html#linuxbrowser > If no one knows, what procedure do I go through to determine the > answer myself Best way: Be a member of a community of committed open source people who manage, very imperfectly but intermittently, to look after such matters. If you _personally_ wished to study security concerns involving Web browsers, there are several approaches that can bear some fruit, including studying source code (obviously not a go for binary-only proprietary software), using tools to monitor its interaction with networks (e.g., wireshark) and the host system, and intensively study its user-facing controls. And remember the truism that, if you aren't the customer, you're probably the product, i.e., if a company produces a Web browser you can use, it's always timely to consider where the firm's revenue stream comes from. It might very well involve quiet compromise of your privacy and security. > ...(with the understanding that I am basically a computer > idiot, but I quit Windows entirely in 2004 and became an Ubuntu user > until earlier this year when I jumped on to Devuan). Welcome! [1] But my Tante Bjorg warned me not to trust them, so you're on your own. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Vivaldi
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 23:55:47 +0200, mdn wrote in message <59c2e3e3.6010...@openmailbox.org>: > Le 20/09/2017 22:26, airmoose a écrit : > > Since there is currently some discussion about Chrome/Chromium > > security concerns, is Vivaldi (based on Chromium code I understand) > > also affected with the same security issues? > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivaldi_(web_browser) > https://vivaldi.com/privacy/vivaldi-end-user-license-agreement/ > Vivaldi is Proprietary software. > Don't trust what can't be audited. > Chromium is maybe "open source" but the permissive licenses that it > has permits to not share the source of the distributed binaries. > Like said at the beginning it can become Proprietary software thus you > can't audit it if it's closed. > > Has for the chromium security problems that you mentioned chromium is > known for not being for the user: > https://trisquel.info/en/forum/chromium-unconditionally-downloads-binary-blob ..I duck-ducked: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=systemd+vivaldi&ia=web https://forum.vivaldi.net/search?term=systemd&in=titlesposts&sortBy=relevance&sortDirection=desc&showAs=posts -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan, Firefox and Apulse
On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 11:30:21PM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 15:42:18 -0500, dev wrote in message > : > > > > > > > On 09/20/2017 01:47 PM, Rick Moen wrote: > > > > > > > At _least_ try Chromium before adopting a proprietary browser > > > (Chrome). I don't know why so many Linux users think _only_ of the > > > proprietary Google Chrome Web browser and not the open source > > > Chromium browser of which Google Chrome is an odd and untrustworthy > > > variant? It's dispiriting. > > > > Because the last time I tried Chromium it's functionality was about on > > par with Konquerer and I wrote it off. Perhaps it's matured nicely? > > ..sort of, if you're okay with Google squealing to NSA et al on > you and your web browsing habits, then yes, it can be said to > have matured nicely, it is a (too darn) nice and slick web browser > (for your own good), and so well behaved you wind up hoping your > own wishful dreams are the truth and that everything you learn here > on web browsing security and privacy, are conspiracy theories. > > ..do we have a good bookmark conversion or management utility? I really want a bookmark file format that all my browsers understand, and use, and update, and which I can edit too. Instead, I've started hand-editing an html file that contains a few bookmarks, with short descriptions of each. Definitely not as convenient. But I can structure it the way I want, include cross-references, see-also links, and so forth. -- hendrik > > -- > ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen > ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... > Scenarios always come in sets of three: > best case, worst case, and just in case. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Vivaldi
Le 21/09/2017 00:53, Arnt Karlsen a écrit : > On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 23:55:47 +0200, mdn wrote in message > <59c2e3e3.6010...@openmailbox.org>: > >> Le 20/09/2017 22:26, airmoose a écrit : >>> Since there is currently some discussion about Chrome/Chromium >>> security concerns, is Vivaldi (based on Chromium code I understand) >>> also affected with the same security issues? >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivaldi_(web_browser) >> https://vivaldi.com/privacy/vivaldi-end-user-license-agreement/ >> Vivaldi is Proprietary software. >> Don't trust what can't be audited. >> Chromium is maybe "open source" but the permissive licenses that it >> has permits to not share the source of the distributed binaries. >> Like said at the beginning it can become Proprietary software thus you >> can't audit it if it's closed. >> >> Has for the chromium security problems that you mentioned chromium is >> known for not being for the user: >> https://trisquel.info/en/forum/chromium-unconditionally-downloads-binary-blob > > ..I duck-ducked: > https://duckduckgo.com/?q=systemd+vivaldi&ia=web > https://forum.vivaldi.net/search?term=systemd&in=titlesposts&sortBy=relevance&sortDirection=desc&showAs=posts > Your point is ? -- Librement BERNARD ENG: Please be kind enough to use GPG for our future conversations: https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org/en/ If this email isn't PGP signed then it isn't mine. -If you can't compile it dump it. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
I would actually like network manager to have its garbage systemd >> dependencies removed. >> ___ >> > > It's already been done > > golinux > In which version of devuan? all of them or just jessie? just curious. > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Has anyone tried waterfox?
I may sound like a broken record, but it is the next best thing, to Icecat with one exception where it excels: the updates come much more often. it is also superior to firefox for the following reasons: * Disabled Encrypted Media Extensions (EME) (*which sometimes is enabled by default as of 2016 but can be disabled easily everything else is the same though as before) * Disabled Web Runtime (deprecated as of 2015) * Removed Pocket (garbage spyware removed it in about:config if you use firefox) * Removed Telemetry (the same as the above) * Removed data collection (same as the above) * Removed startup profiling * Allow running of all 64-Bit NPAPI plugins * Allow running of unsigned extensions * Removal of Sponsored Tiles on New Tab Page * Addition of Duplicate Tab option * Locale selector in about:preferences > General read the bottom though before you decide on it though because as good as it is for most users, until an esr appears, it cannot be used for jessie users. alas... but if you use anything later, go ahead! seriously... OR, you could disable all the bad stuff in about:config. your call! :) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
> On Sep 20, 2017, at 4:25 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > On 2017-09-20 15:09, zap wrote: >>> The phase “depends on systemd” is being used in two extreme contexts here. >>> The first is a technical context, where “apt-get install ” fails >>> because of a dependency, and may be trivially fixed with different build >>> options. The second is “fundamentally and irreparably depends on systemd.” >>> For example, Network Manager can be built by removing two systemd >>> dependencies from the debian/control file. It clearly falls in the first >>> category. >>> [Citation required.] What else “depends on systemd”? >>> jf >> I would actually like network manager to have its garbage systemd >> dependencies removed. >> ___ > > It's already been done > Not in Ascii. http://bugs.devuan.org/db/13/133.html Just verified this is still the case. jf -- John Franklin frank...@tux.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
On 2017-09-20 20:51, zap wrote: I would actually like network manager to have its garbage systemd dependencies removed. ___ It's already been done golinux In which version of devuan? all of them or just jessie? just curious. From a search for 'network-manager' in the botbot logs. https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/search/?q=network-manager Was that so hard? you can install network-manager without systemd 0.9.10.0-7+devuan1 in jessie main Have no idea about the other releases. You can refine the search on botbot or dng or maybe even d1g. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
On 2017-09-20 21:47, John Franklin wrote: On Sep 20, 2017, at 4:25 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: On 2017-09-20 15:09, zap wrote: The phase “depends on systemd” is being used in two extreme contexts here. The first is a technical context, where “apt-get install ” fails because of a dependency, and may be trivially fixed with different build options. The second is “fundamentally and irreparably depends on systemd.” For example, Network Manager can be built by removing two systemd dependencies from the debian/control file. It clearly falls in the first category. [Citation required.] What else “depends on systemd”? jf I would actually like network manager to have its garbage systemd dependencies removed. ___ It's already been done Not in Ascii. http://bugs.devuan.org/db/13/133.html Just verified this is still the case. jf Maybe the jessie version will work in ASCII? I have sometimes used pkgs from the prior release. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
> On Sep 20, 2017, at 10:59 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > From a search for 'network-manager' in the botbot logs. > https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/search/?q=network-manager > Was that so hard? Yes, it is. And condescending. Why would someone look at the IRC logs of a site that they've never heard of to find out about something in the Jessie and Ascii repositories? jf -- John Franklin frank...@tux.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
On 2017-09-20 22:36, John Franklin wrote: On Sep 20, 2017, at 10:59 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: From a search for 'network-manager' in the botbot logs. https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/search/?q=network-manager Was that so hard? Yes, it is. And condescending. Why would someone look at the IRC logs of a site that they've never heard of to find out about something in the Jessie and Ascii repositories? jf Because botbot logs the #devuan irc channel where a LOT of questions are answered and or solved. IMO every Devuan user should have it bookmarked. It is mentioned frequently on all Devuan communication channels - those references are pretty hard to miss - and it should be one of the first resources to tap. Think of it as a variation on "give a man a fish/teach a man to fish" . . . Of course, checking the repository as you did is the most logical place to look for a package. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
Quoting goli...@dyne.org (goli...@dyne.org): > Because botbot logs the #devuan irc channel where a LOT of questions > are answered and or solved. IMO every Devuan user should have it > bookmarked. It is mentioned frequently on all Devuan communication > channels - those references are pretty hard to miss - and it should > be one of the first resources to tap. Nice! Duly bookmarked https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/ . Thank you. -- Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm Rick Moen for a day. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm r...@linuxmafia.com for the rest of his life." -- John A. Hrastar McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
