[DNG] devuan from scratch?
I do not use debootstrap for educational purposes but to bypass installer misbehaviour.For instance, I remember using it when the installer obstinately wanted to force me to use LVM (Logical Volume Management). This happened both under Debian and Devuan. On other occasions, the installer came to a mysterious halt because it wanted to use a network connection even though I had a CD in the CD drive from which the installation was running! Installers remind me of myself losing hours upon hours attempting to make them see reason and install to a partition or use an already existing partition without formatting it. Well, I cannot allow it to format my home partition. In short, I found debootstrap very useful. Unless installers are made to do what the operator wants them to do, they become time-wasters. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 22:39:51 -0400, Steve wrote in message <20180616223951.23a1c...@mydesk.domain.cxm>: > > Linus has been critical of the protocol design. At the time > > the kdbus kernel module was proposed, He said that flaws in > > in the protocol are to blame for poor performance rather > > than kernel limitations. > > > > Also, some blame can be laid on the application developers. > > It's one thing to use dbus for automounting an external > > drive, other to use it hundreds or thousands of times per > > second. However from their point of view, convenience > > matters more, and processors are certain to get faster. > > I'd be even more critical: I think a lot of the use of dbus is so the > programmer can brag dbus programming on their resume. ..maybe we should teach HR people the fine art of asking the right dumb questions to help them avoid the wrong dumb expensive hiring of such people claiming such bragging rights on dbus. Etc. ..we could augment that by advicing C-level people on how their HR staff skills impacts programmer etc production staff hiring, which again impacts product quality, which again etc eventually impacts both their own profit share, and their share holders profits. > > Those who care enough about reducing the overhead will avoid > > or limit their use of dbus. > > Agreed. ..having HR people make such dbus etc braggers come up with simple answers on "why", rather than the usual avalanche on "how", will help hiring businesses pick the good competent profitable staff they need to become or remain profitable businesses. ..good "why" questions on "why a solution was chosen over another" in e.g. a dbus git branch, of course require a fair bit of research, which again creates new(?) markets for such good questions and HR staff hiring interview coaching, etc. ..which again I hope will improve future code quality by discouraging future such dbus, pulseaudio, gnome, systemd etc type resume builder code "quality", e.g. funded and written by people coaching HR staff weeding out the sources of such "quality." -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] what happened to usbmount?
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 18:29:27 -0400, Haines wrote in message <20180616222927.gk1...@engels.historicalmaterialism.info>: > I go to install usbmount on ascii 2.0.0 and I get "E: Unable to locate > package usbmount". ..you have 'dpkg -l |grep usbmount ' and 'apt-cache search usbmount' turn out nothing? ..https://wiki.debian.org/usbmount and https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=774149 says Debian ditched it, https://github.com/rbrito/usbmount says we can pick it up. > Has an alternative been developed without the problems associated with > usbmount? ..pmount, xmount, mountpy, or maybe a lucky combination that tricked me into my mistaken belief I had usbmount installed. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 12:32:53 -1000 Joel Roth wrote: > Svante Signell wrote: > > This is a really good initiative :) Let's get rid of that dbus > > bloat! > > I'm reading a little more about dbus, and find it was > developed by Havoc Pennington, one of the important kernel > contributors, IIRC. > > I'm not sure *I* need it, but he makes a good case for it > and explains some apparent oddities here: > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8648437 Ugh! > > in response to this critical article. > > http://gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/weblog/archives/2014-11.html As I suspected. Litt's opinion: The whole concept of one central message center to unite them all is deeply flawed. First of all, it's a horrible violation of encapsulation. The implication is everything is everybody else's business. What could *possibly* go wrong. Corba, COM, DCOP, dbus, the desired outcome is undesirable. My personal experience with DCOP and dbus, via KDE applications, was abominable. At one time, before I dumped ALL KDE apps (pretty much for the same reasons I refuse to get involved with systemd) in 2012, I wrote a daemon that: 1) Every 5 seconds did a PS to see all dbus-daemon pids that consumed over 95% of CPU 2) Any such pids that had produced a similar result 5 seconds before was killed with a kill -9 It was only after I started running that daemon that I could go a whole day without having to kill and restart X. Before DCOP and DBUS were written, we knew from Corba and COM that any solutions to this "IPC" need were hugely complex. Sure enough, dbus is complex enough that it's almost unexplainable, according to the second URL you provided (and I sure can't explain it). And it's handled by the FreeDesktop.Org folks, who are fervent fans of complexity. I've always felt if two processes need to communicate, they should do it between themselves. One time I wrote some programs to digitize vinyl records, and of course I wanted to spend the time one record played and was being recorded to input the metadata for the next record. I did it with a queue and a couple shellscripts, visible on page 20 of the following: http://troubleshooters.com/linux/presentations/leap_digitizing/leap_digitizing.pdf I have created playlist managers, consisting of multiple processes, who communicate via files, and signal each other of the immediate availablilty of the file using a kill -s USER1 to inform the other process. And the beauty is, these communications had no way to find their way to other processes, because they were specifically programmed for processes that needed them. > Linus has been critical of the protocol design. At the time > the kdbus kernel module was proposed, He said that flaws in > in the protocol are to blame for poor performance rather > than kernel limitations. > > Also, some blame can be laid on the application developers. > It's one thing to use dbus for automounting an external > drive, other to use it hundreds or thousands of times per > second. However from their point of view, convenience > matters more, and processors are certain to get faster. I'd be even more critical: I think a lot of the use of dbus is so the programmer can brag dbus programming on their resume. > Those who care enough about reducing the overhead will avoid > or limit their use of dbus. Agreed. SteveT Steve Litt June 2018 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 12:32:53 -1000, Joel wrote in message <20180616223253.5y7ppwimthm3qidz@sprite>: > Svante Signell wrote: > > This is a really good initiative :) Let's get rid of that dbus > > bloat! > > I'm reading a little more about dbus, and find it was > developed by Havoc Pennington, one of the important kernel > contributors, IIRC. > > I'm not sure *I* need it, but he makes a good case for it > and explains some apparent oddities here: > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8648437 ..actually, "Go use 15 year old Linux if you want to replace nostalgic memories with a good dose of how much it sucked" is the best part of his advice, it doesn't suck as badly on today's hardware as it did on that hardware that was brand new 15 years ago, and, we'll benefit from 15 years of dbus, pulseaudio etc experience and can pick and choose the good stuff and weed out the bad shit when we update to the best of todays and tomorrows standards. > in response to this critical article. > > http://gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/weblog/archives/2014-11.html > > Linus has been critical of the protocol design. At the time > the kdbus kernel module was proposed, He said that flaws in > in the protocol are to blame for poor performance rather > than kernel limitations. > > Also, some blame can be laid on the application developers. > It's one thing to use dbus for automounting an external > drive, other to use it hundreds or thousands of times per > second. However from their point of view, convenience > matters more, and processors are certain to get faster. > > Those who care enough about reducing the overhead will avoid > or limit their use of dbus. ..aye, "why", is by far the important question to get a simple answer on, rather than that usual avalanche on "how"... -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment
Svante Signell wrote: > This is a really good initiative :) Let's get rid of that dbus bloat! I'm reading a little more about dbus, and find it was developed by Havoc Pennington, one of the important kernel contributors, IIRC. I'm not sure *I* need it, but he makes a good case for it and explains some apparent oddities here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8648437 in response to this critical article. http://gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/weblog/archives/2014-11.html Linus has been critical of the protocol design. At the time the kdbus kernel module was proposed, He said that flaws in in the protocol are to blame for poor performance rather than kernel limitations. Also, some blame can be laid on the application developers. It's one thing to use dbus for automounting an external drive, other to use it hundreds or thousands of times per second. However from their point of view, convenience matters more, and processors are certain to get faster. Those who care enough about reducing the overhead will avoid or limit their use of dbus. -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] what happened to usbmount?
I go to install usbmount on ascii 2.0.0 and I get "E: Unable to locate package usbmount". Has an alternative been developed without the problems associated with usbmount? Haines Brown ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Refracta no-dbus experiment
On Fri, 2018-06-15 at 15:34 -0400, fsmithred wrote: > Refracta no-dbus build (experiment) > > The subject of running without dbus comes up from time to time in > various places. I decided to try it and see how far I could get. I > started with a debootstrap install of devuan ascii, pinned dbus to a > priority of -1, and proceeded to make the same changes as I do to > make Refracta liveisos. Normally, the Refracta isos use xfce, but > that's not possible without dbus. > > I was surprised to see how much did install without dbus. So I > thought I'd share it. This build uses openbox, lxpanel, lxterminal > and spacefm. Maybe someone will want to use it. Maybe it will inspire > someone else to do something better. Feeback is welcome. > http://distro.ibiblio.org/refracta/files/experimental/refracta9_nodbu > s_amd64-20180612_0156.iso This is a really good initiative :) Let's get rid of that dbus bloat! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ascii LVM Encrypted Issue
On Sat, 16 Jun 2018 08:19:43 +0200, Didier wrote in message : > Le 16/06/2018 à 05:15, Michael McConnell a écrit : > > I’ve know been through the Graphic and Text based installs and did > > not see any such prompt. I’ve even done what was suggested and did > > the install from a USB key and still the issue persists - > > installing Devuan ASCII and using LVM Encryption results in the > > requirement for a PS2 input to unlock the encryption. > > > > Unless there is something I am missing here, I believe this is in > > fact a bug. > > Yes you must be missing something. > > I haven't any opportunity to run the installer now to find the > place, but I have seen the alternative the last time I installed > ASCII, around a month ago. ..in case he didn't miss anything: We still use the "same old" version of things in the ASCII installer we did a month ago? (Just trying to help rule out these "somebody sneaking in some hidden systemd things" blocking usb etc, e.g. posing as the same good old working version.) > I always use expert mode in TUI (curses) > mode. In this mode you can circulate among the "buttons" using the > key and check/uncheck items with the key. > > The really helpfull answer to your issue would be to point you > to the very step where this alternative is proposed, which I can't do > now. I would look at the step "install the kernel", or something like > that. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan ascii installer netinstall iso UPDATE
Hi Dan, Am Samstag 02 Juni 2018 schrieb Dan Purgert: On 05/31/2018 04:42 PM, Stefan Krusche wrote: > > My older version can't seem to process option "-o FingerprintHash=sha" as > > suggested in the posting on superuser.com to get the SHA256 key fingerprint > > which is shown on the screen of the installer. > > Minimum version to see the SHA256 checksum of the key is (according to > the openssh changelog) 6.8/6.8p1 (2015-03-18). Looks like Jessie is 6.7p1. > > > > > Now, I don't know if the RSA key fingerprint of the sshd server of the > > installer, which my ssh client shows, is sent that way from the server > > (should > > be so, right?) or my ssh client is to old and with a newer one it would > > show > > the SHA256 key fingerprint like on the installer screen. Maybe, the > > installer > > has to be configured to send SHA256 key fingerprint and it isn't? > > Neither the server nor the client sends (or expects) a key with a > certain fingerpint hashing scheme -- it's done on the fly (you can see > this effect with the '-o FingerprintHash=' option of newer clients. Thank you, Stefan ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] elogind and startx
On Sat, Jun 16, 2018 at 11:27:31AM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Install > > xserver-xorg-input-libinput > > and a graphics driver, unless you like to use the in-built modesettings > driver which is usually just about fine for Intel integrated graphics. > For AMD or NVidia you may like or need to use something different tough. Martin, that did the trick. Thanks! I used to rely on xorg, but somewhere got the impression that it had been deprecated and I should instead install the individual xserver packages instead. In carrying this out I managed to omit the xserver-xorg-input-libinput package. Apparently xorg package remains fine to use. Haines ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Ascii LVM Encrypted Issue
Am Samstag 16 Juni 2018 schrieb Michael McConnell: > Thanks, > > I’ve know been through the Graphic and Text based installs and did not see > any such prompt. I’ve even done what was suggested and did the install from a > USB key and still the issue persists - installing Devuan ASCII and using LVM > Encryption results in the requirement for a PS2 input to unlock the > encryption. > > Unless there is something I am missing here, I believe this is in fact a bug. > > Any suggestions or input would be very much appreciated! > > Thanks again, > Mike > When the installer is going to create the initramdisk it asks whether to create a "generic" one or one with only the necessary drivers. This is in expert install, either graphic or text. Regards, Stefan ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] elogind and startx
Hi Haines. Haines Brown - 15.06.18, 22:12: > On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 07:41:52PM +0100, Dave Turner wrote: > > You must install the xserver files to get X working. > > > > More precisely, they MUST be installed. Whether elogind and > > libpam-elogind drag them in as dependencies I do not know. > > I did as you suggest, but with an unhappy outcome. I installed these > packages on a raw ascii 2.0.0 system: > > aptitude > > xserver-xorg-video-dummy, xserver-xorg-input-void, xserver-xorg-core > xinit, x11-xserver-utils > > xfonts-100dpi, xfonts-75dpi, xfonts-scalable > > fluxbox, xfonts-terminus, feh > > Result is that when xserver is run by user, it brings up a frozen > fluxbox window manager. No keyboard or mouse input. My keyboard is > dead. So had to do a hot shutdown. > > After rebooting I take a look at ~/.local/share/xorg/Xorg.0.log and > find > > ... > mouseset 0: Damage tracking initialized > config udev; adding input device device Power Button > (/dev/input/event5) > No input driver specified, ignoring this device > This device may have been added with another device file. Install xserver-xorg-input-libinput and a graphics driver, unless you like to use the in-built modesettings driver which is usually just about fine for Intel integrated graphics. For AMD or NVidia you may like or need to use something different tough. Thanks. -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
