[DNG] Problem booting kernel linux-image-4.9.0-7-amd64 with Xen.

2018-07-27 Thread Héctor González
Hello, this is a heads up for other Xen users, linux-image-4.9.0-7-amd64 
-the kernel package now in ascii-security- has a bug which will prevent 
booting from Xen both as Dom0 and DomU.


There is a bug report at 
https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=903767 now marked as 
solved, but not readily available.  It is at stretch-proposed-updates.

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Re: [DNG] keys & subsystems

2018-07-27 Thread Dr. Nikolaus Klepp
Am Freitag, 27. Juli 2018 schrieb Eric Lee Elliott:
> How can I make hardware keys work in a Thinkpad T500?  Vol+, Vol- & Mute 
> are only ones I would use. In other Linux distros the mute, vol+ & vol - 
> keys work.  A link to a way would be good enough for me.

Do you have "acpi-support" installed?


> 
> 
> In the discussions of security & kernel, other internal computers seem 
> hidden from consideration.  I use old Core2 systems to avoid remote 
> control computers built in later PCs but the modern SSDs and HDDs, like 
> memory sticks are know to have internal computers.  How do Devuan users 
> know the SSD is not calling home or was not infected between foundry & 
> delivery?  Might Devuan get some protection, some way to stop a modem, 
> USB device or internal OEM device from calling home?
> 
> God Bless You,
> 
> Eric
> 
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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

2018-07-27 Thread Dr. Nikolaus Klepp
Am Freitag, 27. Juli 2018 schrieb KatolaZ:
> On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 11:37:57AM +0200, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
> [...]
> > Well, yes, but the wole point of removing libsystemd0 would be to get rid 
> > of anything systemd, not to magle the systemd sources to do nothing (which 
> > would be a futile efford). SSHD is happy with "sd_notify", cups needs 
> > "sd_listen_fds", "sd_journal_print", "sd_journal_printv", "sd_journal_send" 
> > but is happy with dummy functions. Xorg wants only "sd_listen_fds" ... and 
> > so on. Virtualy all binaries on my system are happy with just a hand full 
> > of systemd functions.  
> 
> 
> I must admit I am lost :)
> 
> The whole point of having a nooped version of libsystemd0 is to *not*
> have anything systemd at all running in your system (unless you are
> also scared of the function signatures defined by the systemd crew,
> since those are basically the only piece of code that would remain
> from the original systemd code in a nooped library...).
> 
> The alternative is to fork any package that links libsystemd0, remove
> the dependenc *if at all possible*, and *keep it updated with
> upstream*, which means also removing any further dependencies, and
> keeping track of all the patches included by the corresponding Debian
> maintainer.
> 
> We have tried the latter alternative first, and it does not work very
> well, unless you have a relatively large number of *maintainers*. I
> need to specify here that a *maintainer* is a person who follows the
> changes happening upstream to the packages he/she is maintaining on a
> daily basis, and rebuilds those packages as necessary, keeping them
> updated. And commits herself to do so at least for an entire release
> cycle.
> 
> Unfortunately, most of the great people that helped stripping
> libsystemd deps in Jessie, just disappeared soon after (also due to
> the relatively steep learning curve of the Devuan building pipeline,
> which has been lately somehow simplified by d1h and other tools).
> 
> This is not maintaining a package, and this is not helping Devuan in
> the long run. It's relatively easy to strip the deps in a single
> package, and then abandon it in the hope that "others" will take care
> of it in future releases. Almost anybody can do that. The real burden
> is committing to maintaining those changes at least for an entire
> release cycle, better if more than that. That's what a *maintainer*
> should do.
> 
> If we don't have enough maintainers, we'll do without, and a nooped
> version of libsystemd looks pretty much like the path of least
> resistance, having the greatest impact with a relatively smaller
> effort.

Ok, here's the part that I do not understand: Why nooping libsystemd (and try 
to understand that mess) instead of building a minimal (functionless) dummy? 
There are just a handful of programs (like elogind) that make extensive use of 
libsystemd and need extra care. The other stuff just uses a minimal set of 
functions - most just for logging.

nik



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Re: [DNG] keys & subsystems

2018-07-27 Thread Joel Roth
Eric Lee Elliott wrote:
> How can I make hardware keys work in a Thinkpad T500?  Vol+, Vol- & Mute are
> only ones I would use. In other Linux distros the mute, vol+ & vol - keys
> work.  A link to a way would be good enough for me.
 
I haven't tried it, but it looks like the 'bind' command
will do it.

https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/89622/how-to-execute-a-script-in-shell-when-a-shortcut-key-is-pressed

Then you need a command to adjust the soundcard volume, using
a program such as amixer.

hth

-- 
Joel Roth
  

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[DNG] keys & subsystems

2018-07-27 Thread Eric Lee Elliott
How can I make hardware keys work in a Thinkpad T500?  Vol+, Vol- & Mute 
are only ones I would use. In other Linux distros the mute, vol+ & vol - 
keys work.  A link to a way would be good enough for me.



In the discussions of security & kernel, other internal computers seem 
hidden from consideration.  I use old Core2 systems to avoid remote 
control computers built in later PCs but the modern SSDs and HDDs, like 
memory sticks are know to have internal computers.  How do Devuan users 
know the SSD is not calling home or was not infected between foundry & 
delivery?  Might Devuan get some protection, some way to stop a modem, 
USB device or internal OEM device from calling home?


God Bless You,

Eric

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Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)

2018-07-27 Thread Dan Pridgeon



On 07/27/2018 10:55 AM, goli...@dyne.org wrote:

On 2018-07-27 09:37, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote:


I did not mean to drop the hack.  I only meant to not make it part of a
package with a name that associates with init-freedom.  Keep the hack
and put it in a differently named package.  Maybe something like

  rabid-foaming-at-the-mouth-systemd-reference-removal-zealot

;-P
--
Olaf Meeuwissen,


How about "potty-wipe"

golinux
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Or, perhaps, d-lete or d-rid.
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Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)

2018-07-27 Thread Arnt Karlsen
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:55:21 -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote in message 
<8bf10b143787869cbb7e72c798927...@dyne.org>:

> On 2018-07-27 09:37, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote:
> > 
> > I did not mean to drop the hack.  I only meant to not make it part
> > of a package with a name that associates with init-freedom.  Keep
> > the hack and put it in a differently named package.  Maybe
> > something like
> > 
> >   rabid-foaming-at-the-mouth-systemd-reference-removal-zealot
> > 
> > ;-P
> > --
> > Olaf Meeuwissen,  
> 
> How about "potty-wipe"

..clearly a more respectful name. ;o)

-- 
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...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.

2018-07-27 Thread Arnt Karlsen
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:09:13 -0500, Эльбрус wrote in message 
<1532624953.7475.10.ca...@asynchronousexchange.com>:

> On Thu, 2018-07-26 at 18:10 +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl
> wrote:
> > 
> > I am not into conspiracy theories and keep it simple:
> > http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html and then ask why the hell
> > does someone wants a init system to do all this stuff? Easy answer:
> > latest row in table on that page "Easily writable, extensible and
> > parseable service files, suitable for manipulation with enterprise
> > management tools" which is not by coincidence the main business of
> > Red Hat.
> > 
> > Grtz.
> > 
> > Nick  
> 
> I agree with this latest point. While most probably they placed a
> backdoor in systemd, they may have plenty of them in the hardware and
> linux kernel. Access in the military goes by the security clearance of
> the individuals, thus any backdoor in systemd may just add another
> layer to the stack. 

..any chance that systemd backdoors can be used to control, 
or at least learn more about these hardware backdoors?

> The largest profit of systemd arises from withdrawing the control of
> the users from their own machines, the same way android and windows
> did so successfully. More sheep, more profits for everybody, more
> easy to rule over them. For 30 years they have fought against linux
> systems because users do whatever they want with their machines.

..30 years?  I could believe 25 or so years, of seriously meant
backdoor engineering by these 3 letter .gov et al agencies on us,
and that's assuming they were on the ball on Linus' first post.

-- 
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...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)

2018-07-27 Thread Steve Litt
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:00:06 +0900
Olaf Meeuwissen  wrote:


> I just realized that true init-freedom should be systemd-inclusive, so
> don't put that dpkg-cfg hack in any kind of "init-freedom" package,
> please.

I'm pretty sure I was the person who originated the phrase
"init-freedom". This can be fact-checked on the Debian-User mailing
list archives for the second half of 2014. Init-freedom is a marketing
phrase, created to counter all the systemd bullshit. A few facts...

* Devuan has absolutely no duty to facilitate installation of systemd
  or any of its components on a Devuan system. Those wanting systemd
  have plenty of other choices without Devuan.

* Anything that destroys or detains systemd in the marketplace improves
  init-freedom, because systemd in init systems in that it explicitly
  prevents init replacement.

* Init-freedom is not a grand concept to be sought after. It is 1) An
  anti-systemd marketing phrase, and, 2) The normal state of affairs
  before systemd reared its ugly head.

Use the phrase all you want in winning arguments against the
logical-fallacy laden systemd spokesmen, but don't take it too
seriously.

SteveT
 
Steve Litt
Author: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt

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Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)

2018-07-27 Thread golinux

On 2018-07-27 09:37, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote:


I did not mean to drop the hack.  I only meant to not make it part of a
package with a name that associates with init-freedom.  Keep the hack
and put it in a differently named package.  Maybe something like

  rabid-foaming-at-the-mouth-systemd-reference-removal-zealot

;-P
--
Olaf Meeuwissen,


How about "potty-wipe"

golinux
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Re: [DNG] ssh_exchange_identification: read: Connection reset by peer

2018-07-27 Thread marc
> Am 2018-07-27 08:37, schrieb marc:
> >It could be that your process table is full - Run ps fax and
> >understand what each process does.
> >
> >Alternatively /dev/pts isn't mounted, or (less likely) you
> >are running something like fail2ban ?
> 
> My problem is, I cannot look at it when it happens, because this is a
> headless server, located in the attic near my router.

Either keep an ssh session open indefinitely and 
then do an "echo /proc/*" when the problem occurs

Or stop cron and see if the problem goes away. A poorly written cronjob
seems to be the most likely cause of an accidental fork bomb. An 
"ulimit -u 100" in a problematic script might help to contain the
problem.

Also: if you post your problem to the list, try to keep posting
the rest of the thread there too, so that others can benefit from
any solution.

Good luck solving it

regards

marc
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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

2018-07-27 Thread golinux

On 2018-07-27 05:18, Lars Noodén wrote:

On 07/27/2018 01:00 PM, KatolaZ wrote:

[...] I need to specify here that a *maintainer* is a person who
follows the changes happening upstream to the packages he/she is
maintaining on a daily basis, and rebuilds those packages as
necessary, keeping them updated. And commits herself to do so at
least for an entire release cycle.

Unfortunately, most of the great people that helped stripping
libsystemd deps in Jessie, just disappeared soon after (also due to
the relatively steep learning curve of the Devuan building pipeline,
which has been lately somehow simplified by d1h and other tools).

[...] The real burden is committing to maintaining those changes at
least for an entire release cycle, better if more than that. That's
what a *maintainer* should do. [...]


The Devuan site [1] is quite clean but as a side effect lacks a direct
link to the new, more simplified build process, and says to ask via
mail.



A direct link to the d1h instructions can be found on devuan.org from 
the Development tab on the nav bar about halfway down the page.  Is that 
not the logical place to put it?

https://devuan.org/os/development

Help resources are listed in this order on the site's index page.  The 
mail list is the last option:

dev1galaxy.org (where the d1h thread is stickied under Documentation)
#devuan IRC channel
DNG

golinux
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Re: [DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.

2018-07-27 Thread Arnt Karlsen
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:40:02 -0400, Hendrik wrote in message 
<20180726194002.kdw7ht2dv52b6...@topoi.pooq.com>:

> On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 11:07:42AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> > Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
> >   
> > > Anyone thinking of dissing a nation on this *technical* list
> > > should look long and hard at the deficiencies of his/her own
> > > country. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.  
> > 
> > Careful.  Those Icelanders have plenty of hard rocks, and some of
> > them are really hot, too.  ;->  
> 
> So does Hawaii.

..er, like Trump's rock hard toughness on Putin?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzwuTBx93uA ;o)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] I'm not going to respond to messages like that.

2018-07-27 Thread Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:06:59 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> 'The failure mode of clever is "asshole."'

This is a family list; so:

'The failure mode of clever is "orifice".'
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
   The most exciting phrase to hear in science,   
   the one that heralds new discoveries,  
   is not Eureka! (I found it!) but That's funny ?
   -- Isaac Asimov

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
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Re: [DNG] ssh_exchange_identification: read: Connection reset by peer

2018-07-27 Thread Simon Hobson
marc  wrote:

> It could be that your process table is full - Run ps fax and
> understand what each process does. 

Now, there's a bit of a catch 22 there ...
It's headless, he's not able to SSH (or Telnet) in, and needs to log in via SSH 
(or Telnet) to run a command to find out why he can't connect.

Only thing I can think of would be to write a script run periodically to run 
some diagnostics and save the results in a file - and sync after doing it. That 
way, as long as the file system isn't corrupted, when he's restarted the system 
with a brutal power off there will be some information on it's previous state.
Or if it's got a serial port, run a terminal login on that - leave it logged in 
so you already have a shell running when the problem crops up.
Or even use the serial port for the console so you get any console messages on 
it.

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Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)

2018-07-27 Thread Olaf Meeuwissen
Hi,

Arnt Karlsen writes:

> On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:00:06 +0900, Olaf wrote in message
> <87va92gnjd@member.fsf.org>:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Minor correction in-lined below.
>>
>> Olaf Meeuwissen writes:
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > KatolaZ writes:
>> >
>> >> The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd
>> >> which Provides: libsystemd0 and noops everything, with the
>> >> possibility of shelling-out some actions, if the admin wants so.
>> >> We will get there.
>> >
>> > +1, although I'd prefer a more original and playful name ;-)
>> >
>> > # Not that I have any bright ideas right now :-(
>> >
>> > d-systemized ... perhaps
>> >
>> > For the library stubs and the [dpkg.cfg hack][1] I posted just a
>> > minute or so ago?  Dang!  Should have retitled that post :-(
>> >
>> >  [1]:
>> > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20180726.123546.eacb6518.en.html
>> >
>> > Anyway, most of this is just cosmetic surgery as long as systemd
>> > itself stays out of the system.  And systemd-boot, nee gummiboot,
>> > out of the installer as well.  BTW, the cosmetic surgery angle
>> > might be a nice avenue to explore for package names!
>> >
>> > # init-freedom-botox ... :-\
>> > # Maybe just plain init-freedom?
>>
>> I just realized that true init-freedom should be systemd-inclusive, so
>> don't put that dpkg-cfg hack in any kind of "init-freedom" package,
>> please.
>
> ..I respectfully disagree, keep or put in that dpkg-cfg hack.

I did not mean to drop the hack.  I only meant to not make it part of a
package with a name that associates with init-freedom.  Keep the hack
and put it in a differently named package.  Maybe something like

  rabid-foaming-at-the-mouth-systemd-reference-removal-zealot

;-P
--
Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27
 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13  F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9
 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate
 Join the Free Software Foundation  https://my.fsf.org/join
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Re: [DNG] I'm not going to respond to messages like that.

2018-07-27 Thread spiralofhope
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 23:06:59 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> 'The failure mode of clever is "asshole."'

Oh god that's spectacular.  It also explains a lot.. I'll have to
meditate on this.

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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

2018-07-27 Thread spiralofhope
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 12:00:05 +0200
KatolaZ  wrote:

> Unfortunately, most of the great people that helped stripping
> libsystemd deps in Jessie, just disappeared soon after

One of the tricks is to get a disliked project up and running to make
it the de facto alternative, then either pulling out to let it rot, or
setting up to make/slow decision making, allowing the liked project to
become the de facto popular/better project in comparison.

But I'm just thinking out loud..
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Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)

2018-07-27 Thread Arnt Karlsen
On Thu, 26 Jul 2018 22:00:06 +0900, Olaf wrote in message 
<87va92gnjd@member.fsf.org>:

> Hi,
> 
> Minor correction in-lined below.
> 
> Olaf Meeuwissen writes:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > KatolaZ writes:
> >  
> >> The medium-term plan is to replace libsystemd0 with a libnosystemd
> >> which Provides: libsystemd0 and noops everything, with the
> >> possibility of shelling-out some actions, if the admin wants so.
> >> We will get there.  
> >
> > +1, although I'd prefer a more original and playful name ;-)
> >
> > # Not that I have any bright ideas right now :-(
> >
> > d-systemized ... perhaps
> >
> > For the library stubs and the [dpkg.cfg hack][1] I posted just a
> > minute or so ago?  Dang!  Should have retitled that post :-(
> >
> >  [1]:
> > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20180726.123546.eacb6518.en.html
> >
> > Anyway, most of this is just cosmetic surgery as long as systemd
> > itself stays out of the system.  And systemd-boot, nee gummiboot,
> > out of the installer as well.  BTW, the cosmetic surgery angle
> > might be a nice avenue to explore for package names!
> >
> > # init-freedom-botox ... :-\
> > # Maybe just plain init-freedom?  
> 
> I just realized that true init-freedom should be systemd-inclusive, so
> don't put that dpkg-cfg hack in any kind of "init-freedom" package,
> please.

..I respectfully disagree, keep or put in that dpkg-cfg hack.  

..the philosophical and principled true init freedom is best fixed with
an option to DL & Use Debian's installer instead of our own installer
"If You Are Sure You Know What You Are Doing."  

..remember, we _could_ be wrong on trumpists and pötterware and climate
change deniers, they _could_ be the good guys after all, there's still
that insane theoretical possibility that Mankind is Wrong in Believing
the Good Common Sense in What We All See. ;o)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] An eudev oddity ?

2018-07-27 Thread m712
I usually have the same issue as well. My solution (that sometimes works) is to 
write a partition table through parted (you may use fdisk as well), and then 
re-adding partitions as necessary and doing mkfs. Make a backup of course.

On July 27, 2018 3:38:15 PM GMT+03:00, "Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI" 
 wrote:
>Given a USB pendrive that was one used to hold a Linux install .iso (dd
>... of:/dev/sdi...) then formatted and used as /dev/sdi1 to store data.
>
>When plugged in, I see it appear in the PCManFM "Places" as both sdi
>and LABEL; either can be mounted, and its content browsed, opened, etc.
>
>Is the normal ?
>
>How can I format it so it is no longer "seen" as /dev/sdi ?
> 
>Cheers,
> 
>Ron.
>-- 
> The business of the law was not the discovery of the truth,
>   but the imposition of the power of the state upon its citizens.
>   -- Commissario Brunetti
>
>   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
> 
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[DNG] An eudev oddity ?

2018-07-27 Thread Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI
Given a USB pendrive that was one used to hold a Linux install .iso (dd ... 
of:/dev/sdi...) then formatted and used as /dev/sdi1 to store data.

When plugged in, I see it appear in the PCManFM "Places" as both sdi and LABEL; 
either can be mounted, and its content browsed, opened, etc.

Is the normal ?

How can I format it so it is no longer "seen" as /dev/sdi ?
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
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   but the imposition of the power of the state upon its citizens.
   -- Commissario Brunetti

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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

2018-07-27 Thread KatolaZ
On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 01:18:41PM +0300, Lars Noodén wrote:

[cut]

> 
> Can you please (re-)post the link to the new Devuan build process?
>


Dear Lars,

it's under "Deveopment":

  https://devuan.org/os/development

and the relevant link is the fourth one:

  https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1110#p1110
  The manual of d1h, the Devuan packaging helper will help you build Devuan 
packages for Devuan or at home for your own use.

Please feel free to ask if you need. Please also consider that the
current version of d1h has a problem with the "cache" function, which
I have to update to use the new salsa.debian.org. Sorry for the
inconvenience.

HTH

KatolaZ

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[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

2018-07-27 Thread Lars Noodén
On 07/27/2018 01:00 PM, KatolaZ wrote:
> [...] I need to specify here that a *maintainer* is a person who
> follows the changes happening upstream to the packages he/she is
> maintaining on a daily basis, and rebuilds those packages as
> necessary, keeping them updated. And commits herself to do so at
> least for an entire release cycle.
> 
> Unfortunately, most of the great people that helped stripping 
> libsystemd deps in Jessie, just disappeared soon after (also due to 
> the relatively steep learning curve of the Devuan building pipeline, 
> which has been lately somehow simplified by d1h and other tools).
> 
> [...] The real burden is committing to maintaining those changes at
> least for an entire release cycle, better if more than that. That's
> what a *maintainer* should do. [...]

The Devuan site [1] is quite clean but as a side effect lacks a direct
link to the new, more simplified build process, and says to ask via
mail.  Back in the Red Hat 5.2 days, OpenSSH was one of the packages
where I rolled my own RPMs.  APT is different but, famous last words,
how much harder could it be once one gets going?  I can probably follow
a recipe reasonably well, and the second or third time should be easy,
but would be constrained somewhat if a dedicated development machine is
needed locally.  So I would be interested in seeing how feasible it
would be to maintain that package.  Some preliminary searching turns up
nothing about Devuan's build process.

Can you please (re-)post the link to the new Devuan build process?

/Lars

[1] https://devuan.org/
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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

2018-07-27 Thread KatolaZ
On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 11:37:57AM +0200, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
> Am Freitag, 27. Juli 2018 schrieb KatolaZ:
> > On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 12:05:54AM +0200, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
> > > Sorry, this may break the thread but I already deleted the original 
> > > message.
> > > 
> > > To make things short: this a minimal "libnosystemd" for sshd on ascii. It 
> > > basicly does nothing at all. To be more specific, it does exactly the 
> > > same that libsystemd0 does, which is nothing. 
> > > 
> > > Unpack where you like, compile and copy the resulting library to 
> > > /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd.so.0.17.0 (it might be a good idea to 
> > > backup the original). "service ssh stop; service ssh start" and oh magic 
> > > sshd is up and running without libsystemd0 - that is all it does. Good 
> > > enough for me as a proof of concept :-)
> > > 
> > > Nik
> > 
> > It's not that easy since already understanding how to build libsystemd
> > alone and what should be nooped is not a trivial task (at least for
> > me). Especially because they have recently abandoned autotools for
> > ninja.
> 
> Well, yes, but the wole point of removing libsystemd0 would be to get rid of 
> anything systemd, not to magle the systemd sources to do nothing (which would 
> be a futile efford). SSHD is happy with "sd_notify", cups needs 
> "sd_listen_fds", "sd_journal_print", "sd_journal_printv", "sd_journal_send" 
> but is happy with dummy functions. Xorg wants only "sd_listen_fds" ... and so 
> on. Virtualy all binaries on my system are happy with just a hand full of 
> systemd functions. 


I must admit I am lost :)

The whole point of having a nooped version of libsystemd0 is to *not*
have anything systemd at all running in your system (unless you are
also scared of the function signatures defined by the systemd crew,
since those are basically the only piece of code that would remain
from the original systemd code in a nooped library...).

The alternative is to fork any package that links libsystemd0, remove
the dependenc *if at all possible*, and *keep it updated with
upstream*, which means also removing any further dependencies, and
keeping track of all the patches included by the corresponding Debian
maintainer.

We have tried the latter alternative first, and it does not work very
well, unless you have a relatively large number of *maintainers*. I
need to specify here that a *maintainer* is a person who follows the
changes happening upstream to the packages he/she is maintaining on a
daily basis, and rebuilds those packages as necessary, keeping them
updated. And commits herself to do so at least for an entire release
cycle.

Unfortunately, most of the great people that helped stripping
libsystemd deps in Jessie, just disappeared soon after (also due to
the relatively steep learning curve of the Devuan building pipeline,
which has been lately somehow simplified by d1h and other tools).

This is not maintaining a package, and this is not helping Devuan in
the long run. It's relatively easy to strip the deps in a single
package, and then abandon it in the hope that "others" will take care
of it in future releases. Almost anybody can do that. The real burden
is committing to maintaining those changes at least for an entire
release cycle, better if more than that. That's what a *maintainer*
should do.

If we don't have enough maintainers, we'll do without, and a nooped
version of libsystemd looks pretty much like the path of least
resistance, having the greatest impact with a relatively smaller
effort.

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
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[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

2018-07-27 Thread Dr. Nikolaus Klepp
Am Freitag, 27. Juli 2018 schrieb KatolaZ:
> On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 12:05:54AM +0200, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
> > Sorry, this may break the thread but I already deleted the original message.
> > 
> > To make things short: this a minimal "libnosystemd" for sshd on ascii. It 
> > basicly does nothing at all. To be more specific, it does exactly the same 
> > that libsystemd0 does, which is nothing. 
> > 
> > Unpack where you like, compile and copy the resulting library to 
> > /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd.so.0.17.0 (it might be a good idea to 
> > backup the original). "service ssh stop; service ssh start" and oh magic 
> > sshd is up and running without libsystemd0 - that is all it does. Good 
> > enough for me as a proof of concept :-)
> > 
> > Nik
> 
> It's not that easy since already understanding how to build libsystemd
> alone and what should be nooped is not a trivial task (at least for
> me). Especially because they have recently abandoned autotools for
> ninja.

Well, yes, but the wole point of removing libsystemd0 would be to get rid of 
anything systemd, not to magle the systemd sources to do nothing (which would 
be a futile efford). SSHD is happy with "sd_notify", cups needs 
"sd_listen_fds", "sd_journal_print", "sd_journal_printv", "sd_journal_send" but 
is happy with dummy functions. Xorg wants only "sd_listen_fds" ... and so on. 
Virtualy all binaries on my system are happy with just a hand full of systemd 
functions. 

The two exceptions are "/usr/bin/elogind-inhibit" and "/usr/bin/loginctl" which 
make heavy use of sd_*. 

Nik




> 
> And IMHO it's not gonna happen for ascii but for ceres first and then
> percolate to beowulf. It could be backported to ascii though.
> 
> We must keep developing Devuan by looking *forward*, not *backward* ;)
> 
> HND
> 
> KatolaZ
> 



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Re: [DNG] systemd and ssh-server

2018-07-27 Thread KatolaZ
On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 12:05:54AM +0200, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote:
> Sorry, this may break the thread but I already deleted the original message.
> 
> To make things short: this a minimal "libnosystemd" for sshd on ascii. It 
> basicly does nothing at all. To be more specific, it does exactly the same 
> that libsystemd0 does, which is nothing. 
> 
> Unpack where you like, compile and copy the resulting library to 
> /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd.so.0.17.0 (it might be a good idea to backup 
> the original). "service ssh stop; service ssh start" and oh magic sshd is up 
> and running without libsystemd0 - that is all it does. Good enough for me as 
> a proof of concept :-)
> 
> Nik

It's not that easy since already understanding how to build libsystemd
alone and what should be nooped is not a trivial task (at least for
me). Especially because they have recently abandoned autotools for
ninja.

And IMHO it's not gonna happen for ascii but for ceres first and then
percolate to beowulf. It could be backported to ascii though.

We must keep developing Devuan by looking *forward*, not *backward* ;)

HND

KatolaZ

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[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
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Re: [DNG] Provides: libsystemd0 (was Re: systemd and ssh-server)

2018-07-27 Thread KatolaZ
On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 07:09:59PM +, Daniel Abrecht wrote:

[cut]

> 
> Another problem could arise though, how stable are the systemd APIs? I
> once wrote https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/sd_journal_shim , it
> generates the libjournal library and just provides a subset of
> systemds logging functions so it can be used as a shim for those, even
> though it can't replace libsystemd. I think it's still in
> experimental, even though I'm not sure if it still works, because
> thankfully, noone seams to use the systemd journald APIs still, so
> noone seams to have had any need for this shim.
>

I have actually gone all the way down the rabbit's hole [*], and
discovered that part of the libsystemd API, that is the stuff normally
used by most of the services to tell systemd that they are alive and
is mostly what we are talking about here, has been "frozen" and
guaranteed to remain stable. So nooping them once should be
sufficient.

journald is another beast, but it shouldn't be hard to transform most
of the calls into equivalent syslog calls and/or optional shellouts.

It would be good if more people would join the effor of actually
getting into the rabbit hole. I should actually put in git.devuan.org
the repo I am currently working on. The more, the merrier.

HND

KatolaZ

[*] You can fear only what you don't understand, and you can
successfully fight only what you fully understood.

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