Re: [DNG] What should an Install Guide accomplish?
Concise is perfect, if comprehensive, within reason. And, perhaps gilded by a (growing?) collection of links to "user stories"? Ralph. chillfan--- via Dng wrote on 02/01/19 16:53: > Historically the community has always responded to things that are minimal > and simple, and not so much to things that are bloated or windowsy, or > similar. Imho, a reason why a new user might look to Devuan could be because > it's less like windows than some of the others, and the community supports > the goal of simpler living with your OS. > > Actually, I think these problems should be solved just not directly in > Devuan. If there comes a time when someone creates a spin specifically for > new users, that would solve all those problems. > > Cheers, > > chillfan > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 11:34 PM, Michael > wrote: > >> Hi golinux and everyone else, >> > >> Okay, I’m breaking this topic off from the ‘Added desktop-live to the install >> guides’ as it seems we have a much higher, philosophical level decision to >> make before we can continue with editing the Devuan Install Guide. Which is: >> > >> == What should an Install Guide accomplish? >> > >> # >> > >> == >> > >> My take is that an Install Guide is a complete set of instructions that a >> person can follow to fully accomplish the task. There are no ambiguities >> presented to the user, as it is literally do step a), do step b), do step >> c) ... >> > >> Each step should be fully explained and if there is more than one primary >> method of doing any of the steps, then each method is explained. In this >> case my take is that both Nix and Windows instructions should be available. >> > >> # Minor points >> > >> === >> > >> = I am fully against against repeating any information on a website. As doing >> so almost always leads to discrepancies between the difference sources. If >> the Devuan site is using a CMS of some sort, then a single source should be >> able to be created and block inclusions can be then placed anywhere else on >> the site as needed. [1] >> > >> = I do think that anything a user needs to know to make an intelligent >> decision should be either on the page or directly linked to. If linked to, >> then clicking the link should not close or overwrite the Install Guide page. >> > >> = For an Install Guide I’m against ‘Minimalism.’ My feeling is that not >> giving total, and literally an over abundance of information, not only >> directly inhibits and stops people from doing the Install, but also creates >> vast negative word of mouth from those who attempt the Install but can’t >> complete it because they aren’t given enough information to physically be >> able to follow it. >> > >> = If golinux agrees to ‘an over abundance of information approach,’ I have no >> issue re-writing the whole guide. (As you may have noticed I’m a bit gabby.) >> I will need someone with a Windows box to QC those instructions. >> > >> # >> > >> == >> > >> Okay, that’s my fairly opinionated opinion. I think ultimately this is >> golinux’s decision, but please everyone else jump in with yea’s, nay’s, and >> what you think the answer to the question is ;) Also, please don’t feel shy >> about bringing up what you think the ramifications might be for the different >> options/opinions/methods. I bring this last point up, as I have a gut feel >> that if we come to agreement on the ramifications, then we’ll have >> our ‘decision’ per say made for us. >> > >> Best Regards All and Happy New Year!, >> Michael >> > >> PS: golinux, my full apologies if I’ve stepped on your toes :( and/or >> exceeded what you’re willing to take under discussion. >> > >> [1] I host and manage Drupal (CMS) websites, this generally takes 10 minutes >> to setup. I can discuss this offline with whoever as desired. >> > >> Dng mailing list >> Dng@lists.dyne.org >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
On 2019-01-01 23:46, Edward Bartolo via Dng wrote: On 02/01/2019, goli...@dyne.org wrote: On 2019-01-01 21:37, Steve Litt wrote: The degree of attentiveness we now demand in our workplaces has been a positive trait for only a couple centuries, and genetics hasn't caught up. So blame is counterproductive. I beg to differ. It's not in the genetics. It's in how we choose to live. The level of consciousness in parts of the world hundreds of years BC surpasses what we are capable of today. Our individual traits/skills/talents are the resultants of the quality of our past actions over millennia. IOW we start a life with what what is commensurate to whom we have been. So choose wisely. golinux What 'consciousness' you are talking about?! I am talking about the consciousness/awareness that receives data in the form of eye:sights, ear:sounds, nose:smells, tongue:tastes, body:physical sensations and mind:thoughts. It is the mere reception of these stimuli that turns our inner world and outer world so it's to our advantage to get to know the interaction between stimulation and response intimately. Without great awareness in the present moment, we are carried along by emotional reactions to events instead of actually knowing and understanding them. More often than not, that impulsive reactiveness brings us much misery and pain. But if that same consciousness is harnessed to focus on this never-ending stream of events moment to moment, it begins to understand them in a very different way and changes the mind at a fundamental level. The ability to touch that understanding has declined over the last 2500+ years and there will come a time when that knowledge will be forgotten. But it will be rediscovered sometime in the very distant future because it it cyclical as all things are. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Fwd: Re: What should an Install Guide accomplish?
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > Rick Moen wrote: > > > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#moenslaw-documentation > > > > Moen's Law of Documentation > > > > "The more you write, the less they read." > > Not true, if you structure the writing correctly. Especially now that > we have hyperlinks, it's easy to write good and non-ambiguous docs. Well, I've seen the effect I describe at said lexicon item play out in the real world, over and over, with writings from untold numbers of technical people. However, I admire your optimism. Absolutely, I do endorse your notion that part of the problem is reliance on excessively linear prose. As I said, IMO that's a big part of the structural problem with Eric's and my essay. > Yes, but in a "how to do it" document (like documentation on a distro's > install procedure), once you've articulated the steps and substeps and > what could go wrong and how to deal with it, you're done. I _really_ admire your optimism. ;-> > All things being equal, concise is always better than rambling. But man > pages are concise Even the one for GNU find? ;-> ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should an Install Guide accomplish?
Historically the community has always responded to things that are minimal and simple, and not so much to things that are bloated or windowsy, or similar. Imho, a reason why a new user might look to Devuan could be because it's less like windows than some of the others, and the community supports the goal of simpler living with your OS. Actually, I think these problems should be solved just not directly in Devuan. If there comes a time when someone creates a spin specifically for new users, that would solve all those problems. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 11:34 PM, Michael wrote: > Hi golinux and everyone else, > > Okay, I’m breaking this topic off from the ‘Added desktop-live to the install > guides’ as it seems we have a much higher, philosophical level decision to > make before we can continue with editing the Devuan Install Guide. Which is: > > == What should an Install Guide accomplish? > > # > > == > > My take is that an Install Guide is a complete set of instructions that a > person can follow to fully accomplish the task. There are no ambiguities > presented to the user, as it is literally do step a), do step b), do step > c) ... > > Each step should be fully explained and if there is more than one primary > method of doing any of the steps, then each method is explained. In this > case my take is that both Nix and Windows instructions should be available. > > # Minor points > > === > > = I am fully against against repeating any information on a website. As doing > so almost always leads to discrepancies between the difference sources. If > the Devuan site is using a CMS of some sort, then a single source should be > able to be created and block inclusions can be then placed anywhere else on > the site as needed. [1] > > = I do think that anything a user needs to know to make an intelligent > decision should be either on the page or directly linked to. If linked to, > then clicking the link should not close or overwrite the Install Guide page. > > = For an Install Guide I’m against ‘Minimalism.’ My feeling is that not > giving total, and literally an over abundance of information, not only > directly inhibits and stops people from doing the Install, but also creates > vast negative word of mouth from those who attempt the Install but can’t > complete it because they aren’t given enough information to physically be > able to follow it. > > = If golinux agrees to ‘an over abundance of information approach,’ I have no > issue re-writing the whole guide. (As you may have noticed I’m a bit gabby.) > I will need someone with a Windows box to QC those instructions. > > # > > == > > Okay, that’s my fairly opinionated opinion. I think ultimately this is > golinux’s decision, but please everyone else jump in with yea’s, nay’s, and > what you think the answer to the question is ;) Also, please don’t feel shy > about bringing up what you think the ramifications might be for the different > options/opinions/methods. I bring this last point up, as I have a gut feel > that if we come to agreement on the ramifications, then we’ll have > our ‘decision’ per say made for us. > > Best Regards All and Happy New Year!, > Michael > > PS: golinux, my full apologies if I’ve stepped on your toes :( and/or > exceeded what you’re willing to take under discussion. > > [1] I host and manage Drupal (CMS) websites, this generally takes 10 minutes > to setup. I can discuss this offline with whoever as desired. > > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
On 02/01/2019, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > On 2019-01-01 21:37, Steve Litt wrote: >> The degree of attentiveness we now >> demand in our workplaces has been a positive trait for only a >> couple centuries, and genetics hasn't caught up. So blame is >> counterproductive. >> > > I beg to differ. It's not in the genetics. It's in how we choose to > live. The level of consciousness in parts of the world hundreds of years > BC surpasses what we are capable of today. Our individual > traits/skills/talents are the resultants of the quality of our past > actions over millennia. IOW we start a life with what what is > commensurate to who we have been. So choose wisely. > > golinux > What 'consciousness' you are talking about?! So, according to you, speculation becomes proven facts? These 'dull days' a scientific hypothesis must pass through various stages to become a theory. I have a 'hypothesis' of how the human brain generates consciousness, but that, is only a USELESS UNPROVEN HYPOTHESIS irrespective of how intricate and detailed it may happen to be. Observe ---> hypothesize ---> publish ---> peer review ---> paradigm ---> theory Now, narcissists can start to manipulate what I wrote in the most puerile ways imaginable. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
On Tue, 01 Jan 2019 22:03:29 -0600 goli...@dyne.org wrote: > On 2019-01-01 21:37, Steve Litt wrote: > > The degree of attentiveness we now > > demand in our workplaces has been a positive trait for only a > > couple centuries, and genetics hasn't caught up. So blame is > > counterproductive. > > > > I beg to differ. It's not in the genetics. It's in how we choose to > live. The level of consciousness in parts of the world hundreds of > years BC surpasses what we are capable of today. Our individual > traits/skills/talents are the resultants of the quality of our past > actions over millennia. IOW we start a life with what what is > commensurate to who we have been. So choose wisely. If you're referring to reincarnation, I can't comment on that. As far as the Egyptions and the Central Americans building pyramids and the like, a few had the consciousness to figure that out: I don't think there's any evidence that Joe Sixpack Maya had this knowledge. Today I bet one out of every 200 people in the world can write a useful computer program. I think assigning blame to people with subnormal attention spans is a little like assigning blame to people with bad vision. It wasn't a choice. So the people with bad vision wear glasses and don't bother reading books written with 6 point type, while those with bad attention use outlines and don't bother reading writing or documentation that rambles. No blame. SteveT Steve Litt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Fwd: Re: What should an Install Guide accomplish?
On Tue, 1 Jan 2019 19:04:32 -0800 Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting goli...@dyne.org (goli...@dyne.org): > > [much concentrated wisdom] > > > The best documemntation will be useless if no one reads it. > [...] > > Even though information is already available on the site and > > elsewhere, quite often there will be questions that could be readily > > answered with a little effort on the user's part. So it is not a > > lack of information problem but a "you can't fix stupid" problem. > > Bloating the guide won't change that human behavior. > > Reminds me of a couple of things I've realised through many years > observing where documentation and user education works and where it > doesn't -- and pondering why. First of two is this: > > http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#moenslaw-documentation > > Moen's Law of Documentation > > "The more you write, the less they read." Not true, if you structure the writing correctly. Especially now that we have hyperlinks, it's easy to write good and non-ambiguous docs. > > Although any piece of writing can be improved, even the best > examples, especially of technical writing, no matter how excellent, > will garner requests for _more detail_ -- far past the point of > reason. Yes, but in a "how to do it" document (like documentation on a distro's install procedure), once you've articulated the steps and substeps and what could go wrong and how to deal with it, you're done. Any requests for further info, such as theoretical underpinnings, can be done in a separate document. > Why? Because, most often, a questioner's immediate reaction > (to not instantly understanding) is to claim that insufficient > information was provided, whether such is true or not. The longer and > more detailed any subsequent, further explanations are, the more > difficulty target readers will have in finding what they need, and > the more they'll demand an even thicker forest of explanations to get > lost in. Not if it's written right. > > Thus, greater conciseness often does _much more good_ than do > longer & more detailed explanations. All things being equal, concise is always better than rambling. But man pages are concise, yet they tend to be of value more as a reminder to those who already know the software than those approaching it for the first time. Anyway, I'm a big believer in giving just enough data so nothing's ambiguous and all terminology is defined. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
On 2019-01-01 21:37, Steve Litt wrote: The degree of attentiveness we now demand in our workplaces has been a positive trait for only a couple centuries, and genetics hasn't caught up. So blame is counterproductive. I beg to differ. It's not in the genetics. It's in how we choose to live. The level of consciousness in parts of the world hundreds of years BC surpasses what we are capable of today. Our individual traits/skills/talents are the resultants of the quality of our past actions over millennia. IOW we start a life with what what is commensurate to who we have been. So choose wisely. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
On Tue, 01 Jan 2019 19:08:17 -0600 goli...@dyne.org wrote: > On 2019-01-01 15:40, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > On Tue, 01 Jan 2019 13:51:58 -0600, goli...@dyne.org wrote in > > message <80c73e7cb3edf956e191a56acaeb4...@dyne.org>: > > > >> This useful information is beyond the scope of these INSTALL > >> guides. But there are already pages on the website that cover much > >> of it. Does it really need to be repeated? > >> https://devuan.org/os/releases > >> https://devuan.org/os/filenaming > > > > ..I'd say yes, we _are_ dealing with humans, the very source of > > human errors, some errors happen because humans have gold fish type > > attention spans that make them forget what they read in 2 minutes > > ago, often because they watch waaay too much TV. ;o) > > > > Sadly, this is the world we live in. I agree that many have short attention spans (I'm one), but the judgmentalism and assumption of TV as a reason in the OP's post aren't helpful. 1. I grew up in a pre-ritalin society, and can tell you that a full 1/2 of the males in my classrooms had problems with attention span. We found workarounds including outlines, lists, and being picky about what books we read. If the author couldn't express himself succinctly, it wasn't our job to parse out his gobblety gook. 2. There was a time in human evolution when a short attention span was a survival trait. Nobody wants to put 100% of their attention on creating just the right arrowhead, and not notice the hungry tiger stalking 100 yards away. The degree of attentiveness we now demand in our workplaces has been a positive trait for only a couple centuries, and genetics hasn't caught up. So blame is counterproductive. SteveT ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should an Install Guide accomplish?
On Tue, 1 Jan 2019 17:34:57 -0600 Michael wrote: > = For an Install Guide I’m against ‘Minimalism.’ My feeling is that > not giving total, and literally an over abundance of information, not > only directly inhibits and stops people from doing the Install, but > also creates vast negative word of mouth from those who attempt the > Install but can’t complete it because they aren’t given enough > information to physically be able to follow it. I agree with you, and HATE ambiguity in documentation, but the overabundance must be done in such a way that the user's eyes don't blur over with "oh man I can't do all of that." I think perhaps the best way to do this is the old presenter's maxim: Tell em what you're gonna tell em, tell em, then tell em what you told them. So it might start out with a 1 or 2 level outline of the steps, then have a section of overabundance now that they understand which slot to put each action and set of actions into, and finally summarize it once more with a list. I was a tech-writer for 8 of my 15 professional programmer years (I did both and got paid for both), I was the main author of "Samba Unleashed", I've written 99% of the content on Troubleshooters.Com, and I wrote a lot of the VimOutliner documentation. It was because of this work that I came to see things as you expressed: Minimalism in documentation is stupid, ambiguity sucks, and overabundance must be done in a way that doesn't intimidate. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt December 2018 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Fwd: Re: What should an Install Guide accomplish?
Quoting goli...@dyne.org (goli...@dyne.org): [much concentrated wisdom] > The best documemntation will be useless if no one reads it. [...] > Even though information is already available on the site and > elsewhere, quite often there will be questions that could be readily > answered with a little effort on the user's part. So it is not a > lack of information problem but a "you can't fix stupid" problem. > Bloating the guide won't change that human behavior. Reminds me of a couple of things I've realised through many years observing where documentation and user education works and where it doesn't -- and pondering why. First of two is this: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#moenslaw-documentation Moen's Law of Documentation "The more you write, the less they read." Although any piece of writing can be improved, even the best examples, especially of technical writing, no matter how excellent, will garner requests for _more detail_ -- far past the point of reason. Why? Because, most often, a questioner's immediate reaction (to not instantly understanding) is to claim that insufficient information was provided, whether such is true or not. The longer and more detailed any subsequent, further explanations are, the more difficulty target readers will have in finding what they need, and the more they'll demand an even thicker forest of explanations to get lost in. Thus, greater conciseness often does _much more good_ than do longer & more detailed explanations. Or, what might be needed is better indexing, or following the classic journalist's inverted pyramid format (http://mtsu32.mtsu.edu:11178/171/pyramid.htm), or the short answer / long answer format I often use -- or just a polite suggestion to Read the Friendly Manual (or Search the Friendly Web). The second: As you may recall, I ended up collaborating wit Eric S. Raymond in co-authoring our essay 'How to Ask Questions the Smart Way' (after we happened to chat circa 2000 and found that we were independently writing the same thing). The end-result has been astonishingly popular (e.g., linked to by a vast number of projects' help pages), and we kept adding additional subtopics readers requested for quite a few years. (IMO, the essay has some damning problems, but that's a different topic.[1]) But Eric was very dismayed that, the more we improved the essay and polished out its most-noted flaws, the dumber people's subsequent objections to it became -- in many cases, suggesting they had completely disregarded what said and attributed to it attitudes and claims that just weren't even remotely present. I pointed out that, no, Eric, you actually have it backwards: Initially, there were a number of reasonable objections to the text. We did a pretty good job fixing those through iterative improvement over quite a few years. Whenever you've satisified all of the reasonable objections, what you're left with are the unreasonable ones, e.g., those who will complain about a text without reading it at all, or read it so poorly as to comprehensively misunderstand it. Eric had fallen prey to a variant of the fallacy of composition (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_composition), which 'arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole'. It's worth remembering that the better suited to task a piece of documentation is, the more head-scratching the remaining complaints will tend to become (not that any documentation can't be improved). [1] Basically, it's too long-winded and too linear. Linear is an artifact of the DocBook toolset. The excessive length is because we kept good-naturedly complying with requests to add things. IMO, what has resulted is an essay very popular with the people who don't need it, e.g., project leaders, but almost totally disregarded by its intended audience. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Fwd: Re: What should an Install Guide accomplish?
Sorry. Forgot to send to the list. Original Message Subject: Re: [DNG] What should an Install Guide accomplish? Date: 2019-01-01 18:50 From: goli...@dyne.org To: Michael On 2019-01-01 17:34, Michael wrote: Hi golinux and everyone else, Okay, I’m breaking this topic off from the ‘Added desktop-live to the install guides’ as it seems we have a much higher, philosophical level decision to make before we can continue with editing the Devuan Install Guide. Which is: == What should an Install Guide accomplish? Before that, it might be good for you to understand a little better where Devuan is coming from. # # # My take is that an Install Guide is a complete set of instructions that a person can follow to fully accomplish the task. There are no ambiguities presented to the user, as it is literally do step a), do step b), do step c) ... As explained elsewhere. These documents were originally created for inclusion on the ascii isos and have been re-purposed to go on the website. They were never intended as a complete set of instructions. Are you even aware of dev1fanboy's wiki? https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan Or the friends of devaun wiki? https://friendsofdevuan.org/doku.php Each step should be fully explained and if there is more than one primary method of doing any of the steps, then each method is explained. In this case my take is that both Nix and Windows instructions should be available. See below. # # Minor points = I am fully against against repeating any information on a website. As doing so almost always leads to discrepancies between the difference sources. If the Devuan site is using a CMS of some sort, then a single source should be able to be created and block inclusions can be then placed anywhere else on the site as needed. [1] The site is intricately hand-coded in markdown. Not my doing; I inherited it and have learned to live with it. = I do think that anything a user needs to know to make an intelligent decision should be either on the page or directly linked to. If linked to, then clicking the link should not close or overwrite the Install Guide page. The best documemntation will be useless if no one reads it. See below. Isn't that what a scrollwheel click is for? = For an Install Guide I’m against ‘Minimalism.’ My feeling is that not giving total, and literally an over abundance of information, not only directly inhibits and stops people from doing the Install, but also creates vast negative word of mouth from those who attempt the Install but can’t complete it because they aren’t given enough information to physically be able to follow it. Even though information is already available on the site and elsewhere, quite often there will be questions that could be readily answered with a little effort on the user's part. So it is not a lack of information problem but a "you can't fix stupid" problem. Bloating the guide won't change that human behavior. = If golinux agrees to ‘an over abundance of information approach,’ I have no issue re-writing the whole guide. (As you may have noticed I’m a bit gabby.) I will need someone with a Windows box to QC those instructions. I am a minimalist personally as is the target audience of this distro. We are not seeking to court desktop users and overtake the desktop market. In fact, we considered launching this distro without ANY desktop!! That would have left desktop development to derivatives of which we have many. So I think you're not understanding who we are, where we are coming from and where we want to go. Feel free to open a project in our gitlab for us to review. # # # Okay, that’s my fairly opinionated opinion. I think ultimately this is golinux’s decision, but please everyone else jump in with yea’s, nay’s, and what you think the answer to the question is ;) Also, please don’t feel shy about bringing up what you think the ramifications might be for the different options/opinions/methods. I bring this last point up, as I have a gut feel that if we come to agreement on the ramifications, then we’ll have our ‘decision’ per say made for us. It is not MY decision. It is OUR decision. But . . . While I can appreciate your enthusiasm, jumping into an established community that works well together and starting to rearrange the furniture is a very strange way to make an entrance. Think bull:china shop. Best Regards All and Happy New Year!, Michael PS: golinux, my full apologies if I’ve stepped on your toes :( and/or exceeded what you’re willing to take under discussion. You should be apologizing to the community not to me. We are in this together, have long standing working relationships and have a common vision. It is a big red flag when some stranger who drops in from who knows where and with what agenda starts telling us what to do and how to do it. If you can do it better, s
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
On 2019-01-01 15:40, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Tue, 01 Jan 2019 13:51:58 -0600, goli...@dyne.org wrote in message <80c73e7cb3edf956e191a56acaeb4...@dyne.org>: This useful information is beyond the scope of these INSTALL guides. But there are already pages on the website that cover much of it. Does it really need to be repeated? https://devuan.org/os/releases https://devuan.org/os/filenaming ..I'd say yes, we _are_ dealing with humans, the very source of human errors, some errors happen because humans have gold fish type attention spans that make them forget what they read in 2 minutes ago, often because they watch waaay too much TV. ;o) Sadly, this is the world we live in. desktop-live: refracta installer for bios or uefi (recommended for reviews) ..this gives "tech" magazine writers the best impression to base their review story on? It is the easiest way to have a quick look. minimal-live: refracta installer console-based system (focus on accessibility) ..this will work for blind people? Yes. KatolaZ has worked extensively with the speakup community and the iso has been tested by blind users on this list. netinst: classic network installer, downloads packages from the network ..we should add "all" or "ALL", saying "classic network installer, downloads ALL packages from the network." Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the base system installed from the iso and only the choices made during the installation process downloaded? cd: classic CD installer with base packages (not recommended for desktop) ..why not??? I had forgotten about that page. Yes that iso list from many years ago needs to be harmonized with the revisions on the site. > > Rename to “What Installation image should I chose?” > There has to be a more concise way of saying that. ;) Minimalism rules here. ;) ..some people need to be _told_ they can choose, before they will get off their ass choosing an option. I'll try to find a happy medium. That information is already on the index and get-devuan pages of the website as well as one of the links posted above. Those who will not seek will not find. ...and those who do not know or see they can or should seek, will not seek. Etc. Exactly. Not Devuan's problem. Cheers, golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
On 2019-01-01 15:25, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: We do not have to write specific Windows guides to mention Unetbootin which will work for Linux, Windows and Mac. Of course we will have to tell the authors of Unetbootin to add Devuan to the pre-selected distros to make it complete. Grtz. Nick Would you be willing to contact them about this? Thanks, golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
On 2019-01-01 15:04, chillfan--- via Dng wrote: Validating the images is optional but I think it's useful to tell people how this is done for those that want it. That part could easily be rewritten to be optional and a recommendation only. That's my suggestion for this anyway. So something like: Installation images distributed by Devuan are signed so that they can be verified as coming from Devuan. As an optional step you can verify images to let you know they have not been altered prior to you receiving them. I'll look at incorporating this later tonight. My preference would be for us not to repeat ourselves on the website in favour of simplicity, and instead just link to what we need in the intro. Yes. Please make a list of anything you think should be linked to and I'll incorporate into the site. About dd, I think that should be mentioned because otherwise users will look elsewhere and when it doesn't work they'll think our images are broken (this issue has come up before). So for users convenience and to be sure they are using dd correctly, we should provide those instructions. dd isn't going anywhere. Whilst we will have more information and documentation for new users, I don't think we should write Windows guides. I think that would lead us more in the direction of ubuntu and others who adopted systemd. Agreed. 'Nuf said. There have been way too many Windows/Ubuntu references in this thread. I need decontamination. LOLOL! We are not (and hopefully will never become) an Ubuntu/Windows refugee camp. Cheers, chillfan ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] What should an Install Guide accomplish?
Hi golinux and everyone else, Okay, I’m breaking this topic off from the ‘Added desktop-live to the install guides’ as it seems we have a much higher, philosophical level decision to make before we can continue with editing the Devuan Install Guide. Which is: == What should an Install Guide accomplish? # # # My take is that an Install Guide is a complete set of instructions that a person can follow to fully accomplish the task. There are no ambiguities presented to the user, as it is literally do step a), do step b), do step c) ... Each step should be fully explained and if there is more than one primary method of doing any of the steps, then each method is explained. In this case my take is that both Nix and Windows instructions should be available. # # Minor points = I am fully against against repeating any information on a website. As doing so almost always leads to discrepancies between the difference sources. If the Devuan site is using a CMS of some sort, then a single source should be able to be created and block inclusions can be then placed anywhere else on the site as needed. [1] = I do think that anything a user needs to know to make an intelligent decision should be either on the page or directly linked to. If linked to, then clicking the link should not close or overwrite the Install Guide page. = For an Install Guide I’m against ‘Minimalism.’ My feeling is that not giving total, and literally an over abundance of information, not only directly inhibits and stops people from doing the Install, but also creates vast negative word of mouth from those who attempt the Install but can’t complete it because they aren’t given enough information to physically be able to follow it. = If golinux agrees to ‘an over abundance of information approach,’ I have no issue re-writing the whole guide. (As you may have noticed I’m a bit gabby.) I will need someone with a Windows box to QC those instructions. # # # Okay, that’s my fairly opinionated opinion. I think ultimately this is golinux’s decision, but please everyone else jump in with yea’s, nay’s, and what you think the answer to the question is ;) Also, please don’t feel shy about bringing up what you think the ramifications might be for the different options/opinions/methods. I bring this last point up, as I have a gut feel that if we come to agreement on the ramifications, then we’ll have our ‘decision’ per say made for us. Best Regards All and Happy New Year!, Michael PS: golinux, my full apologies if I’ve stepped on your toes :( and/or exceeded what you’re willing to take under discussion. [1] I host and manage Drupal (CMS) websites, this generally takes 10 minutes to setup. I can discuss this offline with whoever as desired. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
On 2019-01-01 05:52, Arnt Karlsen wrote: On Tue, 1 Jan 2019 11:01:44 +0100, aitor_czr wrote in message <93007179-fc33-c2ea-5fb4-00cd732f5...@gnuinos.org>: Happy 2019 :) On 1/1/19 10:46, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > Happy new year everyone! > > I've kicked off the new year with a late night session in gitlab > tweaking the install guides and adding one for the desktop-live gui > install. You can start here: > > https://beta.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/start-here.html > > Navigation is at the bottom of the page. Please cycle through the > pages and report if anything is broken. If they look OK, I will > merge everything to master tomorrow. > > Thanks, > > golinux Very good job! ..maybe a wee tweak in section "1)" of: https://beta.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/live-gui.html where we might wanna mention the potential ramifications of leaving the default root password as "toor" going online during the install, e.g. with: "the default root password is toor and you want to change that default root password to anything else with the passwd command before proceding. Select your preferred option when you're ready." Just catching up on the backlog of emails. Thank you all for responding. @Arnt . . . Thanks. Very good point. I have gone online from a live CD many times and never given it a second thought! Duh! I just talked to fsr and I will add that info at the very top of the live-iso install guide as "Security alert". BTW, he of course knows about this, has often advised users as you suggest and is even in his documentation elsewhere. :) For those of you who might not know . . . chillfan (aka dev1fanboy) has written nearly all of the install, update, upgrade documentation for Devuan. plasma (formerly NewGnuGuy) also helped with the editing of these pages that were originally put together for inclusion on the ascii isos that use the debian-installer. Now, fsmithred has prepared the desktop-live content. This is a great team!! (golinux bows) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] SOLVED: slashes in FAT file names
On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 10:23:14PM -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I have a 32GiB microSD card an am reying to read it on my Devuan system. > I munted it with a simpel mount /dev/sdb1 /nedia/hendrik/ > > It reads almost everything fine, except for a few files whose names > contain '/' characters. I can handle the other horribly weird > characters in file names -- emacs Rename in the directory > editor works just fine. But the names containing '/'s even have > emacs stymied. > > ls -l lists them like this: > > -rw-r--r-- 1 hendrik hendrik 0 Sep 1 2007 06 - Track 6.mq3 > -? ? ? ? ?? 07/TRA~1.MP3 > -rw-r--r-- 1 hendrik hendrik 3585716 Sep 1 2007 08-URA~1.MP3 > > With the slash, it can't even figure out the permissions, ownership, or > file size. Preumably some parts of the system interpret the '/' as the > directory name separator, and in this file system that's not what it > is. > > Does anyone have any ideas here other than begging, borrowing, or > buying a Windows system? Thanks for all the advice. Most of it was instructive, and some was actually useful. Didier, thanks for telling me about openat. It won't work here, but it will be useful in another project I have. I haven't tried fsck.fat. I tried magicrescue. But it kept finding many many starts for mp3 files, and running a script for each one to see if it was really and mp3 file, in the course of which writing file hundreds of megbytes long, deciding it wasn't mp3 after all and deleting it. Far too slow. Running for a full 18 hours found nothing, and it looked as if it had searched ony a fraction of the 32G SDXC card. I then used WxHexEdit, a hex editor, in immediate update mode. It found the troublesome file names, and I replaced the slashes by zeros. After that it was easy to read those files. -- hendrik > > -- hendrik > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
I was thinking about wether this would be useful too. If I remember I didn't do this with the original guide because unetbootin has more than one way of doing things, which may just confuse users. But if they did include Devuan as a target that might solve the issue, depending what people think on using unetbootin. Cheers, chillfan ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 9:25 PM, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > On 01-01-19 22:04, chillfan--- via Dng wrote: > > > Validating the images is optional but I think it's useful to tell people > > how this is done for those that want it. That part could easily be > > rewritten to be optional and a recommendation only. That's my suggestion > > for this anyway. So something like: > > Installation images distributed by Devuan are signed so that they can be > > verified as coming from Devuan. As an optional step you can verify images > > to let you know they have not been altered prior to you receiving them. > > My preference would be for us not to repeat ourselves on the website in > > favour of simplicity, and instead just link to what we need in the intro. > > About dd, I think that should be mentioned because otherwise users will > > look elsewhere and when it doesn't work they'll think our images are broken > > (this issue has come up before). So for users convenience and to be sure > > they are using dd correctly, we should provide those instructions. > > Whilst we will have more information and documentation for new users, I > > don't think we should write Windows guides. I think that would lead us more > > in the direction of ubuntu and others who adopted systemd. > > Cheers, > > chillfan > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > > On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 7:51 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > We do not have to write specific Windows guides to mention Unetbootin > which will work for Linux, Windows and Mac. > > Of course we will have to tell the authors of Unetbootin to add Devuan > to the pre-selected distros to make it complete. > > Grtz. > > Nick publickey - chillfan@protonmail.com - 0xB179B25B.asc Description: application/pgp-keys signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
On Tue, 01 Jan 2019 13:51:58 -0600, goli...@dyne.org wrote in message
<80c73e7cb3edf956e191a56acaeb4...@dyne.org>:
> Hi Michael,
>
> Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed comments. Response inline
> below.
>
> On 2019-01-01 09:46, Michael wrote:
> > On Tuesday 01 January 2019 03:46:52 am goli...@dyne.org wrote:
> >> tweaking the install guides and adding one for the desktop-live gui
> >> install. You can start here:
> >>
> >> https://beta.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/start-here.html
> >
> >
> > Hi golinux,
> >
> > These thoughts are from the angle of helping someone who’s never
> > done an
> > install of any OS before. My guess is most people haven’t, as when
> > buying a
> > new computer the OS is almost always already installed now days.
> >
> > I’ve added stubs where I can, but do edit for better user clarity!
> >
> > # # #
> >
> >
> > # # Sections to Add:
> >
> > = Which Release version is right for me?
> >
> > Explain when/why they should choose ASCII or Jessie.
> >
> > = {Explanation of the .iso naming scheme}
> >
> > devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_netinst.iso
> > ^^^ Who we are!
> >^^^ The Release name
> >^^^ The architecture
> > ^^^ The Installation image
> >
> > Needs fixed width to line up properly...
> >
> > = {Pathing walk through of how to find the right .iso}
> >
>
> This useful information is beyond the scope of these INSTALL guides.
> But there are already pages on the website that cover much of it.
> Does it really need to be repeated?
> https://devuan.org/os/releases
> https://devuan.org/os/filenaming
..I'd say yes, we _are_ dealing with humans, the very source of human
errors, some errors happen because humans have gold fish type attention
spans that make them forget what they read in 2 minutes ago, often
because they watch waaay too much TV. ;o)
..these from https://devuan.org/os/filenaming could use clarification:
> desktop-live: refracta installer for bios or uefi (recommended for
> reviews)
..this gives "tech" magazine writers the best impression to base their
review story on?
> minimal-live: refracta installer console-based system (focus
> on accessibility)
..this will work for blind people?
> netinst: classic network installer, downloads packages from the
> network
..we should add "all" or "ALL", saying "classic network installer,
downloads ALL packages from the network."
..my understanding is all the other installers are be able to remain
offline while installing a working base OS that's ready to go safely
online to fetch whatever it needs to finish tweaking etc the installed
base OS.
> cd: classic CD installer with base packages (not recommended for
> desktop)
..why not???
> >
> > # # Section: Supported architectures
> >
> > Define what both of these mean.
> >
> > amd64: 64-bit CPUs, used for both Intel and AMD consumer level
> > CPUs. I386: 32-bit CPUs, ???
> >
>
> Again not really appropriate for the INSTALL guides. Hardware is
> s not my thing. If someone wants to do a write up, we can find a
> place for it somewhere on the website.
>
> >
> > # # Section: Installation images
> >
> > Rename to “What Installation image should I chose?”
> >
>
> There has to be a more concise way of saying that. ;) Minimalism
> rules here. ;)
..some people need to be _told_ they can choose, before
they will get off their ass choosing an option.
> >
> > Add Subsection: One install with access to the Internet?
> >
> > Use the `*_netinst.iso` which will install a base system then
> > download the
> > remaining packages during the installation process.
> >
> > Add Subsection: Multiple installs or no access to the Internet
> > during install?
> >
> > Choose the single `*_dvd-1.iso`. The image contains several desktop
> > choices
> > and additional software options. ...
> >
>
> That information is already on the index and get-devuan pages of the
> website as well as one of the links posted above. Those who will not
> seek will not find.
...and those who do not know or see they can or should seek, will not
seek. Etc.
> >
> > # # Section: Check the integrity of images
> >
> > Add how to for Windows. You can probably swipe Fedora’s? But
> > someone would
> > need to check both copyright concerns and that the instructions
> > work.
> >
> > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/18/html/Burning_ISO_images_to_disc/sect-Burning_ISO_images_to_disc-Validating_the_Files-Validating_at_the_Windows_Command_Prompt.html
> >
>
> Could you possibly provide that information for inclusion?
>
> >
> > # # Check the integrity of images Vs. Verify the images
> >
> > This isn’t my field, but??? If they’ve done a sha256sum, is there
> > any value
> > in checking a keychain? Or are these just two alternatives of the
> > same thing
> > and these two sections need to be sub-sections of the same section?
> >
>
> I think they are alternative ways of verifyin
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
On 01-01-19 22:04, chillfan--- via Dng wrote: > Validating the images is optional but I think it's useful to tell people how > this is done for those that want it. That part could easily be rewritten to > be optional and a recommendation only. That's my suggestion for this anyway. > So something like: > > Installation images distributed by Devuan are signed so that they can be > verified as coming from Devuan. As an optional step you can verify images to > let you know they have not been altered prior to you receiving them. > > My preference would be for us not to repeat ourselves on the website in > favour of simplicity, and instead just link to what we need in the intro. > > About dd, I think that should be mentioned because otherwise users will look > elsewhere and when it doesn't work they'll think our images are broken (this > issue has come up before). So for users convenience and to be sure they are > using dd correctly, we should provide those instructions. > > Whilst we will have more information and documentation for new users, I don't > think we should write Windows guides. I think that would lead us more in the > direction of ubuntu and others who adopted systemd. > > Cheers, > > chillfan > > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 7:51 PM, wrote: > We do not have to write specific Windows guides to mention Unetbootin which will work for Linux, Windows and Mac. Of course we will have to tell the authors of Unetbootin to add Devuan to the pre-selected distros to make it complete. Grtz. Nick signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
Validating the images is optional but I think it's useful to tell people how
this is done for those that want it. That part could easily be rewritten to be
optional and a recommendation only. That's my suggestion for this anyway. So
something like:
Installation images distributed by Devuan are signed so that they can be
verified as coming from Devuan. As an optional step you can verify images to
let you know they have not been altered prior to you receiving them.
My preference would be for us not to repeat ourselves on the website in favour
of simplicity, and instead just link to what we need in the intro.
About dd, I think that should be mentioned because otherwise users will look
elsewhere and when it doesn't work they'll think our images are broken (this
issue has come up before). So for users convenience and to be sure they are
using dd correctly, we should provide those instructions.
Whilst we will have more information and documentation for new users, I don't
think we should write Windows guides. I think that would lead us more in the
direction of ubuntu and others who adopted systemd.
Cheers,
chillfan
‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 7:51 PM, wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
> Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed comments. Response inline
> below.
>
> On 2019-01-01 09:46, Michael wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday 01 January 2019 03:46:52 am goli...@dyne.org wrote:
> >
> > > tweaking the install guides and adding one for the desktop-live gui
> > > install. You can start here:
> > > https://beta.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/start-here.html
> >
> > Hi golinux,
> > These thoughts are from the angle of helping someone who’s never done
> > an
> > install of any OS before. My guess is most people haven’t, as when
> > buying a
> > new computer the OS is almost always already installed now days.
> > I’ve added stubs where I can, but do edit for better user clarity!
> >
> > #
> >
> > ==
> >
> > # Sections to Add:
> >
> > ===
> >
> > = Which Release version is right for me?
> > Explain when/why they should choose ASCII or Jessie.
> > = {Explanation of the .iso naming scheme}
> > devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_netinst.iso
> > ^^^ Who we are!
> > ^^^ The Release name
> > ^^^ The architecture
> > ^^^ The Installation image
> > Needs fixed width to line up properly...
> > = {Pathing walk through of how to find the right .iso}
>
> This useful information is beyond the scope of these INSTALL guides. But
> there are already pages on the website that cover much of it. Does it
> really need to be repeated?
> https://devuan.org/os/releases
> https://devuan.org/os/filenaming
>
> > # Section: Supported architectures
> >
> > ===
> >
> > Define what both of these mean.
> > amd64: 64-bit CPUs, used for both Intel and AMD consumer level CPUs.
> > I386: 32-bit CPUs, ???
>
> Again not really appropriate for the INSTALL guides. Hardware is s
> not my thing. If someone wants to do a write up, we can find a place for
> it somewhere on the website.
>
> > # Section: Installation images
> >
> > ===
> >
> > Rename to “What Installation image should I chose?”
>
> There has to be a more concise way of saying that. ;) Minimalism rules
> here. ;)
>
> > Add Subsection: One install with access to the Internet?
> > Use the `*_netinst.iso` which will install a base system then download
> > the
> > remaining packages during the installation process.
> > Add Subsection: Multiple installs or no access to the Internet during
> > install?
> > Choose the single `*_dvd-1.iso`. The image contains several desktop
> > choices
> > and additional software options. ...
>
> That information is already on the index and get-devuan pages of the
> website as well as one of the links posted above. Those who will not
> seek will not find.
>
> > # Section: Check the integrity of images
> >
> > =
> >
> > Add how to for Windows. You can probably swipe Fedora’s? But someone
> > would
> > need to check both copyright concerns and that the instructions work.
> > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/18/html/Burning_ISO_images_to_disc/sect-Burning_ISO_images_to_disc-Validating_the_Files-Validating_at_the_Windows_Command_Prompt.html
>
> Could you possibly provide that information for inclusion?
>
> > # Check the integrity of images Vs. Verify the images
> >
> > ==
> >
> > This isn’t my field, but??? If they’ve done a sha256sum, is there any
> > value
> > in checking a keychain? Or are these just two alternatives of the same
> > thing
> > and these two sections need to be sub-sections of the same section?
>
> I think they are alternative ways of verifying. I always do a sha256sum.
> Can someone please clarify?
>
> > # Section: Writing an image to a CD/DVD or USB drive
> >
> > =
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
On 2019-01-01 12:48, Steve Litt wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jan 2019 09:46:55 -0600
Michael wrote:
= {Pathing walk through of how to find the right .iso}
I suggest flowchart.
SteveT
One of our devs has expressed an interest in putting together an
interactive walkthrough to choosing the right iso. That would be useful
but separate from the install guides. Hopefully in time something will
be available.
golinux
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Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
Hi Michael,
Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed comments. Response inline
below.
On 2019-01-01 09:46, Michael wrote:
On Tuesday 01 January 2019 03:46:52 am goli...@dyne.org wrote:
tweaking the install guides and adding one for the desktop-live gui
install. You can start here:
https://beta.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/start-here.html
Hi golinux,
These thoughts are from the angle of helping someone who’s never done
an
install of any OS before. My guess is most people haven’t, as when
buying a
new computer the OS is almost always already installed now days.
I’ve added stubs where I can, but do edit for better user clarity!
# # #
# # Sections to Add:
= Which Release version is right for me?
Explain when/why they should choose ASCII or Jessie.
= {Explanation of the .iso naming scheme}
devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_netinst.iso
^^^ Who we are!
^^^ The Release name
^^^ The architecture
^^^ The Installation image
Needs fixed width to line up properly...
= {Pathing walk through of how to find the right .iso}
This useful information is beyond the scope of these INSTALL guides. But
there are already pages on the website that cover much of it. Does it
really need to be repeated?
https://devuan.org/os/releases
https://devuan.org/os/filenaming
# # Section: Supported architectures
Define what both of these mean.
amd64: 64-bit CPUs, used for both Intel and AMD consumer level CPUs.
I386: 32-bit CPUs, ???
Again not really appropriate for the INSTALL guides. Hardware is s
not my thing. If someone wants to do a write up, we can find a place for
it somewhere on the website.
# # Section: Installation images
Rename to “What Installation image should I chose?”
There has to be a more concise way of saying that. ;) Minimalism rules
here. ;)
Add Subsection: One install with access to the Internet?
Use the `*_netinst.iso` which will install a base system then download
the
remaining packages during the installation process.
Add Subsection: Multiple installs or no access to the Internet during
install?
Choose the single `*_dvd-1.iso`. The image contains several desktop
choices
and additional software options. ...
That information is already on the index and get-devuan pages of the
website as well as one of the links posted above. Those who will not
seek will not find.
# # Section: Check the integrity of images
Add how to for Windows. You can probably swipe Fedora’s? But someone
would
need to check both copyright concerns and that the instructions work.
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/18/html/Burning_ISO_images_to_disc/sect-Burning_ISO_images_to_disc-Validating_the_Files-Validating_at_the_Windows_Command_Prompt.html
Could you possibly provide that information for inclusion?
# # Check the integrity of images Vs. Verify the images
This isn’t my field, but??? If they’ve done a sha256sum, is there any
value
in checking a keychain? Or are these just two alternatives of the same
thing
and these two sections need to be sub-sections of the same section?
I think they are alternative ways of verifying. I always do a sha256sum.
Can someone please clarify?
# # Section: Writing an image to a CD/DVD or USB drive
Okay, I hate giving people dd instructions, as one bad typo and they’ve
irrevocably wiped the wrong drive.
These instructions are much safer and
also allow the user to add scripts, commands, copies of .bashrc, and
any
other ‘stuff’ that they might want post install to the USB.
Creating a bootable Ubuntu USB flash drive from terminal
https://askubuntu.com/a/376430
There is one additional command needed. In the next to last step you
also
need to rename isolinux.bin to syslinux.bin.
This section also needs Windows instructions.
I'll let others speak to the technical merit of these suggestions.
In closing I just have to say . . . WOW! Windows, Ubuntu and Fedora
mentioned in the same email. This has to be a first in all the years
this list has existed. I must admit that pushed more than a few buttons
. . .
Cheers!
# # #
Nice writeup, this will definitely help!
Best,
Michael
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Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
On Tue, 1 Jan 2019 09:46:55 -0600
Michael wrote:
> = {Pathing walk through of how to find the right .iso}
I suggest flowchart.
SteveT
Steve Litt
December 2018 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
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Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
On Tuesday 01 January 2019 03:46:52 am goli...@dyne.org wrote:
> tweaking the install guides and adding one for the desktop-live gui
> install. You can start here:
>
> https://beta.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/start-here.html
Hi golinux,
These thoughts are from the angle of helping someone who’s never done an
install of any OS before. My guess is most people haven’t, as when buying a
new computer the OS is almost always already installed now days.
I’ve added stubs where I can, but do edit for better user clarity!
# # #
# # Sections to Add:
= Which Release version is right for me?
Explain when/why they should choose ASCII or Jessie.
= {Explanation of the .iso naming scheme}
devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_netinst.iso
^^^ Who we are!
^^^ The Release name
^^^ The architecture
^^^ The Installation image
Needs fixed width to line up properly...
= {Pathing walk through of how to find the right .iso}
# # Section: Supported architectures
Define what both of these mean.
amd64: 64-bit CPUs, used for both Intel and AMD consumer level CPUs.
I386: 32-bit CPUs, ???
# # Section: Installation images
Rename to “What Installation image should I chose?”
Add Subsection: One install with access to the Internet?
Use the `*_netinst.iso` which will install a base system then download the
remaining packages during the installation process.
Add Subsection: Multiple installs or no access to the Internet during
install?
Choose the single `*_dvd-1.iso`. The image contains several desktop choices
and additional software options. ...
# # Section: Check the integrity of images
Add how to for Windows. You can probably swipe Fedora’s? But someone would
need to check both copyright concerns and that the instructions work.
https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/18/html/Burning_ISO_images_to_disc/sect-Burning_ISO_images_to_disc-Validating_the_Files-Validating_at_the_Windows_Command_Prompt.html
# # Check the integrity of images Vs. Verify the images
This isn’t my field, but??? If they’ve done a sha256sum, is there any value
in checking a keychain? Or are these just two alternatives of the same thing
and these two sections need to be sub-sections of the same section?
# # Section: Writing an image to a CD/DVD or USB drive
Okay, I hate giving people dd instructions, as one bad typo and they’ve
irrevocably wiped the wrong drive. These instructions are much safer and
also allow the user to add scripts, commands, copies of .bashrc, and any
other ‘stuff’ that they might want post install to the USB.
Creating a bootable Ubuntu USB flash drive from terminal
https://askubuntu.com/a/376430
There is one additional command needed. In the next to last step you also
need to rename isolinux.bin to syslinux.bin.
This section also needs Windows instructions.
# # #
Nice writeup, this will definitely help!
Best,
Michael
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Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
On Tue, 1 Jan 2019 11:01:44 +0100, aitor_czr wrote in message <93007179-fc33-c2ea-5fb4-00cd732f5...@gnuinos.org>: > Happy 2019 :) > > On 1/1/19 10:46, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > Happy new year everyone! > > > > I've kicked off the new year with a late night session in gitlab > > tweaking the install guides and adding one for the desktop-live gui > > install. You can start here: > > > > https://beta.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/start-here.html > > > > Navigation is at the bottom of the page. Please cycle through the > > pages and report if anything is broken. If they look OK, I will > > merge everything to master tomorrow. > > > > Thanks, > > > > golinux > > Very good job! ..maybe a wee tweak in section "1)" of: https://beta.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/live-gui.html where we might wanna mention the potential ramifications of leaving the default root password as "toor" going online during the install, e.g. with: "the default root password is toor and you want to change that default root password to anything else with the passwd command before proceding. Select your preferred option when you're ready." -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan on the Librem5 devkit
On 31/12/18 at 22:10, Daniel Abrecht via Dng wrote: > My devuan Images can boot on the librem5 devkit now. Great news! > A lot of things, like the lcd display, don't work yet, Not so great news! > but I'm working on it. Good news! Well, with a 2 to 1 majority of good news, the new year is starting positively! Happy New Year to everybody! -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
Happy 2019 :) On 1/1/19 10:46, goli...@dyne.org wrote: Happy new year everyone! I've kicked off the new year with a late night session in gitlab tweaking the install guides and adding one for the desktop-live gui install. You can start here: https://beta.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/start-here.html Navigation is at the bottom of the page. Please cycle through the pages and report if anything is broken. If they look OK, I will merge everything to master tomorrow. Thanks, golinux Very good job! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides
Happy new year everyone! I've kicked off the new year with a late night session in gitlab tweaking the install guides and adding one for the desktop-live gui install. You can start here: https://beta.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/start-here.html Navigation is at the bottom of the page. Please cycle through the pages and report if anything is broken. If they look OK, I will merge everything to master tomorrow. Thanks, golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
