Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
Alessandro Selli wrote: > On 31/01/19 at 03:38, Joel Roth via Dng wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 12:19:44AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: > >> Might interest someone: > >> > >> https://lwn.net/Articles/777595/ > >> > >> [Front] Posted Jan 28, 2019 20:05 UTC (Mon) by corbet > >> > >> His attempt to cast that story for the > >> pleasure of his audience resulted in a sympathetic and nuanced look at a > >> turbulent chapter in the history of the Linux system. > > Hard to believe I listened to the same talk Corbet > > is describing. What I heard was a propaganda piece, > > finding reasons to sell the systemd approach > > to BSD conference attendees. > > Not really. He points out there were good reasons to want a new init, > that systemd was a try at innovating something that was old, and that > this is a different matter compared to *how* that change was implemented. Hi Alessandro, Rice scrupulously avoids mentioning other innovations in the field of init systems. He represents it as a binary decision of old versus new. > Honestly, the anti-systemd front is never going to > prevail pushing technology dating from the 70's or > steering the debate into an ad hominem assault against > Lennart Poettering. It's only chance is developing > something better, an init system and daemon > management-and-monitoring tool that was simpler, more > versatile, customizable and stable than systemd. Anti-systemd seems like a pejorative way to describe a community, and front seems like a rather warlike metaphor. I'd like to find another paradigm! Also, if it is a war, Red Hat and friends always won based on the number of users' machines running systemd. All those administrators will certainly prefer to stay with what they have. Funny that you bring up ad-hominum, as I didn't mention even mention LP. Also interesting that neither you nor Rice mention that security considerations may be involved in using systemd. > That is, the only chance against > systemd is to come up with something technically better. May I ask you > to please present technical arguments either against systemd or in favor > of alternatives rather than railing against LP or Benno Rice? The reason I hit on security is systemd is based on dBus, and RPC frameworks have significant security weaknesses compared to other solutions not relying on RPC. NFS is well known for being vulnerable due to its dependence on RPC. Windows has an enormous history of RPC related vulnerabilities. I don't get how the tradeoff of this design choice is just waved away. There are so many other arguments against systemd that have been discussed so endlessly leading to this distribution and community that I don't think further discussion on this list is relevant... I agree with you that technical arguments will not get business owners to change their init systems. That is why I say that the war is mostly won by systemd. Not matter what the issues, no one can be fired for choosing systemd/Red Hat/IBM. Those who know and care, of course, can go elsewhere, thanks in large part to the hardworking Devuan developers++ cheers, -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
Alessandro Selli wrote: >> Hard to believe I listened to the same talk Corbet >> is describing. What I heard was a propaganda piece, >> finding reasons to sell the systemd approach >> to BSD conference attendees. > > Not really. He points out there were good reasons to want a new init, > that systemd was a try at innovating something that was old, and that > this is a different matter compared to *how* that change was implemented. Beat me to it. I listened and he did make many good points which you've pointed out much more elegantly than I would have managed. While picking out bits by time, I liked his dig at the state of Debian management at around 16 minutes in when he mentions "that vote" :-) > "systemd makes heavy use of dbus. I'm not a big fan of dbus but i am a > big fan of messages. [...] One of the things that I told the BSD people > was basically we should write our own message transport. My version, if > I were to write one, would be kernel resident rather than user space and > would allow a lot more of security and authentication and access control > elements on the actual bus endpoints". Exactly. Whatever the merits (or otherwise) of dbus as an implementation of a messaging system, the function it's trying to implement is a good idea. Ditto udev. And to be honest, a significant chunk of systemd as well - the ideas are good, the implementation and the way it's been managed, "no so good". ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
On 31/01/19 at 03:38, Joel Roth via Dng wrote: > On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 12:19:44AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: >> Might interest someone: >> >> https://lwn.net/Articles/777595/ >> >> [Front] Posted Jan 28, 2019 20:05 UTC (Mon) by corbet >> >> His attempt to cast that story for the >> pleasure of his audience resulted in a sympathetic and nuanced look at a >> turbulent chapter in the history of the Linux system. > Hard to believe I listened to the same talk Corbet > is describing. What I heard was a propaganda piece, > finding reasons to sell the systemd approach > to BSD conference attendees. Not really. He points out there were good reasons to want a new init, that systemd was a try at innovating something that was old, and that this is a different matter compared to *how* that change was implemented. Honestly, the anti-systemd front is never going to prevail pushing technology dating from the 70's or steering the debate into an ad hominem assault against Lennart Poettering. It's only chance is developing something better, an init system and daemon management-and-monitoring tool that was simpler, more versatile, customizable and stable than systemd. That is, the only chance against systemd is to come up with something technically better. May I ask you to please present technical arguments either against systemd or in favor of alternatives rather than railing against LP or Benno Rice? Because reading what you wrote, I believe I heard a different talk than you have. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo Nowhere does he state that BSD should adopt systemd, but he does point out that BSD is lagging behind Linux on many key fronts: automatic HW and SW system reconfiguration, cgroups, message transport, service lifecycle, automation API and containers, for instance. But nowhere does he peddle systemd to the BSD folks. He instead stated that: (30:26) "systemd makes heavy use of dbus. I'm not a big fan of dbus but i am a big fan of messages. [...] One of the things that I told the BSD people was basically we should write our own message transport. My version, if I were to write one, would be kernel resident rather than user space and would allow a lot more of security and authentication and access control elements on the actual bus endpoints". (33:13) "The barrier to entry for building something on top of it like an appliance is massively reduced. But again systemd doesn't have to be the only implementation of this. You should go and explore". This is technical reasoning, this is pointing out what need to be done to turn the tide on something different, on something better than systemd. He rightly states that better does not necessarily mean "the way it was done before", change is part of life and resisting it just out of aversion to change eventually proves futile. There are points over which I disagree with him, when he states that binary logs are a good idea for instance, but he is damn right that bickering against Poetering's personality or that systemd goes against the principles of Unix as they were laid out 40-50 years ago is a losing proposition. We're talking of software, technology and system services, systemd is leading right now and sysv-init is worthless as a weapon against it. Linux is in need of something better, at least in terms of simplicity and robustness, than systemd. But I still can't see anything capable of taking the lead and gaining back a significant share of the installed base from systemd. Which worries me, because this means that systemd is going to become ever more entrenched in the Linux ecosystem, to the point it might begin to dictate the future evolution of the OS, from the kernel to userland. And still what I hear the most is that systemd stinks because LP is an assh*le or that it violates the Unix philosophy. When I hear people speak of philosophy on technology matters I think they don't have a clue yet they're struggling to prevail on a purely dialectical plane. I've been waiting years for something better than systemd, modern and simpler, more modular, customizable and easier to understand and predict. Years when systemd just got bigger, more tentacular and more widely adopted. And all I got was the same old, static, sclerotic sysv-init. Enough with calling people names when they don't share your attitudes against Lennart Poettering or when they don't blame systemd for the death of the neighbor's cat. What can be used today to replace systemd that was not devised 40 years ago when networks were as static as motorways and external removable devices required a technician to change them? What can be used that will run virtualized, containerized systems just as well, that is easier, more customizable and more reliable? In my current job I manage the less than 10% of the infrastructure that runs on non-Windows systems. They are all systemd systems except two old Sun Solaris boxes. I know that pushing management away from systemd wo
[DNG] testing beowulf
Where should I get the installer for the beowulf version that needs to be tested now? I plan to install it on a spare partition of my hard drive and hope the installed dual boot still recognises my existing ascii partition. I will *not* be using a virtual machine. I can test on two systems -- an AMD64 and a i686. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] suspicious firefox behaviour
On 1/31/19 3:00 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote: I have firefox up with a number of tabs. I shut wifi off on my Purism laptop by shutting off power to the radio. I start up a new tab by clicking on '+'. I ask to look at file:///home/hendrik by typing in the url bar. Nothing happens. It's frozen. I try file:/// Nothing happens either. I turn wifi on and reconnect to the access point. Now both of these urls work. So I ask: Why should firefox need to access the net to look at the hard drive in the laptop. Some 1-2 months ago I found something similar in then recent version (but now looks to me as if it was solved since then): When looked into locally saved web pages (and while being not connected to the Internet), and then after quitting firefox, some half a minute later it reported an error saying about some abnormal exit, or whatever. But, when looked into locally saved web pages (while being connected to the Internet), and then after quitting firefox, no error message at all. - Why would it like to be on-line while handling local content? Misko ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
On 1/31/19 7:50 AM, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Simon Hobson - 31.01.19, 14:07: >> Massimo Coppola wrote: > […] >> It's clear that systemd isn't the right implementation. And it's clear >> that Poettering isn't the right person to be doing it. But I'd >> suggest that many of us "systemd - just say no" folks aren't >> fundamentally opposed to improvements where the improvement is >> actually better and not a bug ridden furball' > > Agreed. > > For me right now runit is closest to what I think would be good to have. > > Thanks, > And containers are not a new idea, see, e.g., LXC and its kin. So there are in fact people working on alternate solutions in the same space as systemd, not with the same monolithic approach. And these alternate implementations are trying to be best of breed in their own space, while playing well with others. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] nvidia driver?
On 1/31/19 9:46 AM, KatolaZ wrote: deb http://us.deb.devuan.org/merged ascii main contrib non-free Installing now.. and maybe also have a look at: https://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list Actually did run across that page, but it didn't list "non-free" as an option so wasn't sure if I had a typo in sources.list or if it simply wasn't an option. Thanks for the assistance everyone! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] nvidia driver?
On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 09:36:45AM -0600, hal wrote: > > > On 1/31/19 9:27 AM, KatolaZ wrote: > > You don't need to add Stretch- non-free. Just ass ascii non-free if > > you must. > > > Sweet! What should it be? The installer left this in sources.list but I > don't have the CDROM in: ># deb cdrom:[devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_dvd-1]/ ascii main non-free > > Tried deb http://us.deb.devuan.org/ ascii main non-free seems to cause some > troubles: > deb http://us.deb.devuan.org/merged ascii main contrib non-free and maybe also have a look at: https://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] nvidia driver?
On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 04:27:05PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 08:49:25AM -0600, hal wrote: > > > > > > On 1/31/19 8:44 AM, Antony Stone wrote: > > > What happens if you try following that info? Do you run into some problem > > > when the machine turns out to be running Devuan and not Debian? > > > > > > Yeah, my concern is that adding the Stretch "non-free" will pull in a bunch > > of dependencies for X (lord knows what else). Guess I can try it and see. > > I usually resort to installing the download driver anyway and re-compiling > > on every kernel update. It's just a pain. > > You don't need to add Stretch- non-free. Just ass ascii non-free if s: ass : add : HND -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] nvidia driver?
On 1/31/19 9:27 AM, KatolaZ wrote: You don't need to add Stretch- non-free. Just ass ascii non-free if you must. Sweet! What should it be? The installer left this in sources.list but I don't have the CDROM in: # deb cdrom:[devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_dvd-1]/ ascii main non-free Tried deb http://us.deb.devuan.org/ ascii main non-free seems to cause some troubles: root@x2-desktop:~# aptitude update Ign http://deb.devuan.org/ ascii InRelease Hit http://deb.devuan.org//merged ascii InRelease Hit http://deb.devuan.org//merged ascii-security InRelease Hit http://deb.devuan.org//merged ascii-updates InRelease Err http://deb.devuan.org/ ascii Release 404 Not Found [IP: 195.85.215.180 80] E: The repository 'http://us.deb.devuan.org ascii Release' does not have a Release file. E: Failed to download some files W: Failed to fetch http://us.deb.devuan.org/dists/ascii/Release: 404 Not Found [IP: 195.85.215.180 80] E: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old ones used instead. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] nvidia driver?
On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 08:49:25AM -0600, hal wrote: > > > On 1/31/19 8:44 AM, Antony Stone wrote: > > What happens if you try following that info? Do you run into some problem > > when the machine turns out to be running Devuan and not Debian? > > > Yeah, my concern is that adding the Stretch "non-free" will pull in a bunch > of dependencies for X (lord knows what else). Guess I can try it and see. > I usually resort to installing the download driver anyway and re-compiling > on every kernel update. It's just a pain. You don't need to add Stretch- non-free. Just ass ascii non-free if you must. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] nvidia driver?
On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 08:49:25AM -0600, hal wrote: > > > On 1/31/19 8:44 AM, Antony Stone wrote: > > What happens if you try following that info? Do you run into some problem > > when the machine turns out to be running Devuan and not Debian? > > > Yeah, my concern is that adding the Stretch "non-free" will pull in a bunch > of dependencies for X (lord knows what else). Guess I can try it and see. > I usually resort to installing the download driver anyway and re-compiling > on every kernel update. It's just a pain. Isn't there an ascii nonfree? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] nvidia driver?
On Thursday 31 January 2019 at 15:49:25, hal wrote: > On 1/31/19 8:44 AM, Antony Stone wrote: > > What happens if you try following that info? Do you run into some > > problem when the machine turns out to be running Devuan and not Debian? > > Yeah, my concern is that adding the Stretch "non-free" will pull in a > bunch of dependencies for X (lord knows what else). a) try using "aptitude install -R " to avoid getting "recommended" packages along with what you really want. b) make sure you pin systemd not to install on your machine (not needed for Devuan, of course, but could be useful if you start mixing): /etc/apt/preferences.d/nosystemd Package: systemd Pin: release * Pin-Priority: -1 Package: *systemd* Pin: release * Pin-Priority: -1 > Guess I can try it and see. Just take a good look at what it wants to install before saying "yes" :) > I usually resort to installing the download driver anyway and > re-compiling on every kernel update. It's just a pain. Understood. Antony. -- "640 kilobytes (of RAM) should be enough for anybody." - Bill Gates Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] nvidia driver?
On 1/31/19 8:44 AM, Antony Stone wrote: What happens if you try following that info? Do you run into some problem when the machine turns out to be running Devuan and not Debian? Yeah, my concern is that adding the Stretch "non-free" will pull in a bunch of dependencies for X (lord knows what else). Guess I can try it and see. I usually resort to installing the download driver anyway and re-compiling on every kernel update. It's just a pain. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] nvidia driver?
On Thursday 31 January 2019 at 15:38:13, hal wrote: > Is there an established way to get an Nvidia driver installed on Devuan? > I've tried googling it but just end up getting debian info. What happens if you try following that info? Do you run into some problem when the machine turns out to be running Devuan and not Debian? > Thanks. Regards, Antony. -- "The future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed yet." - William Gibson Please reply to the list; please *don't* CC me. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] nvidia driver?
Is there an established way to get an Nvidia driver installed on Devuan? I've tried googling it but just end up getting debian info. Thanks. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
On 2019-01-31 1:22 a.m., Rick Moen wrote: As I'm (like you) an LWN.net subscriber, I can furnish a 'subscriber link' for the benefit of Dng readers. Enjoy. https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/777595/c64f9542bdd40595/ Thanks Rick, I appreciate this. Reading it was like reading the incomplete logic of Star Trek's Borg. Not lying, but far from the whole truth. After seeing the assimilation of many Linux users from my lowly perspective of Earth it is quite horrifying to see the possible acceptance and potential further spread of the disease. Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
On 1/31/19 12:22 AM, Rick Moen wrote: As I'm (like you) an LWN.net subscriber, I can furnish a 'subscriber link' for the benefit of Dng readers. Enjoy. https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/777595/c64f9542bdd40595/ Thanks, Rick. Interesting read. Regarding systemd..If it were as grand as the supporters say, it would not need all the strategic deception to stay relevant. Kinda reminds me of a certain political figure ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Help testing new policykit in Beowulf
On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 03:22:36PM +0200, Dimitris via Dng wrote: > On 1/31/19 12:32 PM, KatolaZ wrote: > > This is a good step forward towards Beowulf beta. How far it is > > depends also on how quickly we can identify and solve current problems > > in beowulf. So please help testing. > > > Thanks to anyone involved, this is very good news! :) > > upgraded to newer policykit and everything seems to work ok, as > with ascii version. no new problems so far. > (amd64, fully upgraded beowulf/ceres, openrc, MATE.) > original setup & 1st reboot with slim+consolekit, but since i had some > issues with consolekit even before the upgrade.., tried a 2nd reboot > with lightdm+elogind installed and that seems to also work ok so far. > (that setup had major login and other issues in the past IIRC..) > > so, looks good so far, no login errors or anything. :) > Thanks for the heads-up. Please test everything that involves higher privileges as well, e.g., network setup, mounting/unmounting USB stuff, etc, HND KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
Simon Hobson - 31.01.19, 14:07: > Massimo Coppola wrote: […] > It's clear that systemd isn't the right implementation. And it's clear > that Poettering isn't the right person to be doing it. But I'd > suggest that many of us "systemd - just say no" folks aren't > fundamentally opposed to improvements where the improvement is > actually better and not a bug ridden furball' Agreed. For me right now runit is closest to what I think would be good to have. Thanks, -- Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] suspicious firefox behaviour
On 1/30/19 8:00 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: So I ask: Why should firefox need to access the net to look at the hard drive in the laptop. Using Devuan Ascii and the firefox it provides. All I can think of is Possibly a DNS query is waiting. Try running: tcpdump -nn -s0 -A -i wlan0_or_whatever_nic_you_want when starting firefox. See if you can find a query going out on UDP port 53 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Help testing new policykit in Beowulf
On 1/31/19 12:32 PM, KatolaZ wrote: > This is a good step forward towards Beowulf beta. How far it is > depends also on how quickly we can identify and solve current problems > in beowulf. So please help testing. Thanks to anyone involved, this is very good news! :) upgraded to newer policykit and everything seems to work ok, as with ascii version. no new problems so far. (amd64, fully upgraded beowulf/ceres, openrc, MATE.) original setup & 1st reboot with slim+consolekit, but since i had some issues with consolekit even before the upgrade.., tried a 2nd reboot with lightdm+elogind installed and that seems to also work ok so far. (that setup had major login and other issues in the past IIRC..) so, looks good so far, no login errors or anything. :) thanks again, d. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
Massimo Coppola wrote: > But I guess there's no need either to list all technical systemd issues here, > or accept the unsound logic that unkind developers are the only reason of > systemd criticism. With all the hot air, I suspect that many people have lost sight of the distinction between an implementation of an idea (udev, dbus,systemd) and the idea itself (a better way of managing a system). It's clear that systemd isn't the right implementation. And it's clear that Poettering isn't the right person to be doing it. But I'd suggest that many of us "systemd - just say no" folks aren't fundamentally opposed to improvements where the improvement is actually better and not a bug ridden furball' ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
On 2019年1月31日 15:22:57 JST, Rick Moen wrote: >Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com): > >> Might interest someone: >> >> https://lwn.net/Articles/777595/ >> >> [Front] Posted Jan 28, 2019 20:05 UTC (Mon) by corbet >> >> Tragedy, according to Wikipedia, is "a form of drama based on human >> suffering that invokes an accompanying catharsis or pleasure in >> audiences". Benno Rice took his inspiration from that definition for >his >> 2019 linux.conf.au talk on the story of systemd which, he said, >involves >> no shortage of suffering. His attempt to cast that story for the >> pleasure of his audience resulted in a sympathetic and nuanced look >at a >> turbulent chapter in the history of the Linux system. > >As I'm (like you) an LWN.net subscriber, I can furnish a 'subscriber >link' for the benefit of Dng readers. Enjoy. >https://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/777595/c64f9542bdd40595/ > >-- >Cheers, "I am a member of a civilization (IAAMOAC). Step >back >Rick Moenfrom anger. Study how awful our ancestors had it, >yet >r...@linuxmafia.com they struggled to get you here. Repay them by >appreciating >McQ! (4x80) the civilization you inherited." -- >David Brin >___ >Dng mailing list >Dng@lists.dyne.org >https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng Thanks a lot Rick! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Help testing new policykit in Beowulf
Dear D1rs, thanks to the efforts made by Mark (LeePen), Andreas (amesseer), Centurion Dan, and Svante (gnu_srs), we have now updated policykit packages for unstable and Beowulf (testing). Please help testing those packages. In particular, if you are using Beowulf/ceres with the old ascii polkit version pinned, just remove the pins, apt-get update, apt-get upgrade, maybe logout from your DE and login again, and report any problem at bugs.devuan.org. This is a good step forward towards Beowulf beta. How far it is depends also on how quickly we can identify and solve current problems in beowulf. So please help testing. HH KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
Hi all, I don't contribute often to the list, but I really found irritating that after setting a cuckoo egg in the nest someone comes and start telling everyone how much nice is the deviant bird. I think Lars Noodén already pointed out, the news is that the target of systemd propaganda is the BSD world now. I've listened to the youtube video while working, IMHO the speaker is downplaying all the issues with bugs, insecure code and and feature bloat, trying to cast systemd opposition as purely resistance to change. But change is always good, isn't it? Poor systemd developers, they are just not gifted in talking to open source developers... But I guess there's no need either to list all technical systemd issues here, or accept the unsound logic that unkind developers are the only reason of systemd criticism. Unfortunately, there was not QA session after the talk, or I didn't find it on youtube. I was curious about that. I didn't know the guy before, but when he says that Poettering somehow always gets thing done, taht he "delivers", this really is company-style talking to me: if you have something to sell, everything is fine. If you are able to push your ideas into someone else's machine, you are a genius. Besides, one could say that "Lennart delivers" thanks to (massive corporate backing and) a swarm of other guys running around and smooth talking everyone into accepting the "new gospel". Some of the problems systemd tried to tackle are real, so what? - strawman fallacy, the criticism is toward systemd, not toward all the problems it supposedly tackles - periodically breaking things, blaming downstream and closing with WONTIFX is well outside any sensible definition of "not being gifted in talking to a software community" - still, the rightfulness of a question isn't magic, it doesn't turn a technically wrong answer into a correct one. I can't really grok the fact that the speaker seems to work on BSD security... Regards Massimo ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
Il giorno mercoledì 30/01/2019 18:57:05 -0600 goli...@dyne.org ha scritto: > On 2019-01-30 17:19, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > Might interest someone: > > > > https://lwn.net/Articles/777595/ > > > > [Front] Posted Jan 28, 2019 20:05 UTC (Mon) by corbet > > > > Tragedy, according to Wikipedia, is "a form of drama based on human > > suffering that invokes an accompanying catharsis or pleasure in > > audiences". Benno Rice took his inspiration from that definition for > > his > > 2019 linux.conf.au talk on the story of systemd which, he said, > > involves > > no shortage of suffering. His attempt to cast that story for the > > pleasure of his audience resulted in a sympathetic and nuanced look at > > a > > turbulent chapter in the history of the Linux system. > > > > ___ > > > > Unfortunately . . . > > "The page you have tried to view (Systemd as tragedy) is currently > available to LWN subscribers only." > > Too bad. Might have been entertaining . . . > > golinux > Some tragedy happens also in the audio world: https://lists.linuxaudio.org/archives/linux-audio-user/2019-January/111568.html Regards -- al3xu5 / dotcommon Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and any industrial design restrictions. __ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
On 1/31/19 4:38 AM, Joel Roth via Dng wrote: > On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 12:19:44AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: >> Might interest someone: >> >> https://lwn.net/Articles/777595/ >> >> [Front] Posted Jan 28, 2019 20:05 UTC (Mon) by corbet >> >> His attempt to cast that story for the >> pleasure of his audience resulted in a sympathetic and nuanced look at a >> turbulent chapter in the history of the Linux system. > > Hard to believe I listened to the same talk Corbet > is describing. What I heard was a propaganda piece, > finding reasons to sell the systemd approach > to BSD conference attendees. > > To Benno Rice, the tragedy is the pathetic opposition > to what he construes as the inevitable forces of > progress and rationality. That is also my interpretation of his statements, both at LCA and BSDCan. I'd seen the video of his LCA talk already and the gist was that he thinks systemd is great and that everyone should work on implementing something identical within FreeBSD. Something weird and disturbing that it got through the selection process and made it in as a talk. About the only attempt he made at an argument in favor of systemd was his constant use of the logical fallacy appeal to novelty. i.e. "it is better because it is newer" but at least he reduced the amount of personal attacks against non-systemd people this time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo He said about the same thing at BSDcan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AeWu1fZ7bY I still hold out hope that the normal tracks for LCA 2019 will be better but have not seen them yet except for the Lewis [1] talk which can be recommended for watching. /Lars [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p76hGxv3-HE ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
