Re: [DNG] Devuan cannot exist without the help of Debian

[Noel Torres]

On Monday, 25 de November de 2019 01:23:58 Steve Litt escribió:
> On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:55:46 +0100
> 
> Denis Roio  wrote:
> > At last, please, do not consider Devuan as an alternative solution
> > which will survive any outcome of this vote.
> > 
> > Because I'm sure Devuan will not survive without Debian's help.
> 
> Some time in 2015, I remember hearing the VUAs saying that Devuan would
> be a modification of Debian for some time, but would eventually become
> an independent distro of its own, to prevent a crisis like this one.
> How far is Devuan from being its own distro?
[...]
> SteveT

It has been a long, long time since the "campfire" that started all this. I've 
been silent since then.

Debian is to be respected forever, as Dungeons and Dragons is to be respected 
forever as the first roleplaying game. However, I do not play D I do not 
master D I do not like D at all, and I make tongue in cheek jokes about 
D not being a roleplaying game at all with my mates. Why?

It just lay behind.

Debian is about to choose if they will lie behind too. We DO have the 
experience and the manpower to keep init scripts and an init infrastructure, 
and step ahead. It will be harder than until today.

Do we have the will?

Noel, er Envite.
-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

OpenPGP key: 1586 50C8 7DBF B050 DE62  EA12 70B4 00F3 EEC7 C372

Spiral galaxies always have at least TWO arms.


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[DNG] Shim

[Noel Torres]

Hi folks...

Where can I find a *good* and *deep enough* explanation of what a  
"shim" is (in the context of systemd and EFI), but also *easy enough*  
to explain it to some colleagues at work?


Thanks

Noel
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Re: [DNG] Evince

[Noel Torres]

Adam Borowski  escribió:
[...]

Evince is evil and insane.  #721783 is one of many regressions.  You want
atril for a fork of evince from before its upstream went completely bonkers.
It's still gnomey but to a far more acceptable degree.


I installed okular (and its dependences) and it works perfectly for me.

Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] Artistic decisions - keyboard mappings

[Noel Torres]

Joel Roth  escribió:

1) CAPSLOCK key under console and X, should be mapped to Control

   This mapping is compatible with most server
   administrators preferences, prevents capslock-related mode
   problems in vim.

   If this default leads to angry bug reports, at least they will not be sent
   in all caps ;-)


Please, no. I'm a server administrator, and I like to know that the  
keys do what they are suppossed to do. In Caps Lock case, to lock  
capitals on. I do not know who are those "most server administrators",  
but when I need a Control key, I use a Control key. AND it is against  
the "least surprise" priciple.


2) Terminate X via Ctrl-Alt-Backspace

   Seems like an easy, useful, historic way to kill a malfunctioning X.


Absolutely yes.


3) Disable Print key

   All my uses have been unintentional. Does anyone use it deliberately?


Again, please no. The key should do whatever it is intended to do,  
whatever it is. If and when somebody uses it, it must work. In X, it  
can be mapped to some screenshot program. (And again, "least surprise")


My other wishlist items are:

4) No display manager by default

   I think the community shouldn't coocoon naive users from
   the console. The passing familiarity with the terminal
   that comes with Learning to type username, password, startx
   and Ctrl-Alt-Backspace (to terminate X) will help the user
   if and when they ever have trouble with X.

   That X works so well most of the time, and without manual
   configuration is a credit to xorg maintainers.

   Terminating X, and returning to the console would be
   useful, for example, when fiddling with proprietary video
   drivers.


Devuan is about choice. Let our users decide if they want X server  
started by default or not.


Regards

Noel
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[DNG] non-matching i386 and amd64 packages

[Noel Torres]

Hi all

Right in this moment, libdbus-1-3:i386 is on version 1.10.6-1 in the  
repo, but libdbus-1-3:amd64 is on version 1.10.8-1+devuan1


On the server, version 1.10.8-1+devuan1 is available for i386, but my  
aptitude seems unable to detect it.


Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] Debian is dropping support for i586. Are we?

[Noel Torres]

Vince Mulhollon  escribió:


It'll hit the embedded world pretty hard.

Today you can buy a brand new soekris box that only runs i586.  Brand
new off the shelf, today.  My 6 or 7 year old one is running right now


Very valid points. However, we need to pick our battles. At this  
moment, we have very scarce manpower, and a prime objective: get rid  
of systemd for Jessie (it being usable) and Ascii (completely). Adam  
Borowski expressed it way better than I could:


==8<==
Adam Borowski  escribió:

Reverting this in a derivative is possible, although it lands you pretty
much exactly in Raspbian's position.

You'd need to:
* reconfigure and rebuild kernel for -585 flavour
* undo the not-yet-done merging of libc6-i686
* (no source changes) rebuild every package!
* watch out for regressions

==8<==

After that (or even for Ascii), we can broaden our view of "user  
freedom to choose" to other chosings, and i585 would be a good first  
step, but at this moment I (humbly) think it is not worth (even being  
very important).



The root cause of the problem is the Debian/Ubuntu ecosystem is moving
away from the "universal OS" mantra and toward being a GNOME
bootloader for tablets and everything else can just go away.  Thats
the war... abandonment of entire industry sectors or weird init
decisions are merely a small battle, the war is the move toward
turning the OS into a GNOME bootloader for tablets.


Agreed

Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] OT Re: cloud

[Noel Torres]

Hendrik Boom  escribió:


On Wed, May 04, 2016 at 11:23:05AM +, hellekin wrote:

On 05/03/2016 06:05 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Tue, 3 May 2016 10:44:29 +
> hellekin  wrote:
>
>
>> I want to call it "rabbit" or "Shub-Niggurath"
>
> I fear the latter name would not be well received in the United States.
>

Would replacing "Shub-Niggurath" with "Henry Ford" make it any better?


Not if it means there's a space in a name, that has to be escaped  
every time you mention it.


Agreed, spaces suck. Anyway, since The Black Goat of the Woods with a  
Thousand Young may be a bit misguided name for some fundamentalists of  
minor religions (don't get me wrong, any religion is minor except that  
of The Flying Spaghetti Monster), maybe we can all agree in calling it  
"HPLovecraft-init".


Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] OpenRC and Devuan

[Noel Torres]

Steve Litt  escribió:
[...]

I think the only daemons you really need in an installer are the
gettys, sshd, wpa_supplicant and dhcpcd. And you'll probably want
the display manager too. Those obviously must be included in packages.
The more obscure stuff can exist first on the Wiki, and gradually be
incorporated into the packages after they've been proven correct.


Better expressed that way :)


What I was trying to do is shelter the poor maintainers from having a
brand new job thrown at them, and having to learn about every init
system out there (conspicuously excluding systemd).


Agreed


At this point let me say this: It's way premature to speak of any
change in the default init system. What I'm personally speaking of is
alternate inits you can lay down on Devuan, for that minority of people
who care what their init system is (as long as it's not an entangled
monolith).


Yes, but Devuan packagers can (almost blindly) copy scripts from wiki  
to packages, slowly, to allow that happen in a proper way.


[some things about how to package, with which I don't agree but that  
aren't priority]


Anyway, none of this is top priority: We're doing just fine with
sysvinit, and the people who *really* want to alt-init already know how
to do so, with or without Devuan packages to help them. Let those
people do the pioneering work.


Agreed

Noel
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Re: [DNG] OpenRC and Devuan

[Noel Torres]

Steve Litt  escribió:


On Mon, 2 May 2016 22:15:44 -1000
Joel Roth  wrote:



The problem with supporting multiple init systems is that
there is an init script for each service that has to be
ported or rewritten.

[...]

It's a documentation task. If we had a wiki upon which users could
write their successful init scripts/run scripts/EpochConfigs etc, this
task would be removed from upstream developers, who never should have
had this responsibility in the first place.


We can use a wiki for collecting this, but the scripts should be in  
packages, and should be installed, so maybe this wiki might help  
creating bug reports for the maintainers to just add these files to  
their packages.


It is not conceivable that a user that wants a different-than-default  
init system must copy scripts from the wiki while the machine can not  
yet access the wiki as it is still being installed!


Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] OpenRC and Devuan

[Noel Torres]

Jim Murphy  escribió:
[...]

UNIX and lookalikes have been able to boot into single user mode
with a small root filesystem without the need for /usr, /var or ...
There are still admins that have split any number of these directories
into their own filesystems for various reasons. I guess you can call
these use-cases. By placing the init systems in /var we again remove
another choice for admins/users.  If we are about choice, then /var
may not be the best place to put inits.

[...]

For sure my installations have /var separated, to avoid  
/var/log/syslog growing enough to fill / and thus causing the system  
to fail.


The only things I consider to be on root filesystem are:
/ (obviously)
/etc
/lib
/bin
/sbin

Not even /boot, which I use to have in a separated partition  
independently in each hard disk, while all the others are in a  
replicated RAID among all disks.


From this, I derive that init system files should be in /etc  
(configuration) and /sbin (executables). For the sake of keeping  
things as they are, shell scripts could continue in /etc as in  
/etc/init.d so I strongly raise hand for /etc/orc or /etc/wtf-is .


Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] dist upgrade from alpha4 to beta

[Noel Torres]

Haines Brown  escribió:

In my alpha 4 sources.list I have:

  deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged jessie main non-free contrib

However, if the beta is jessie, then I should already be at beta
level. That is, a simple aptitude update/safe upgrade would be all I
need to do, rather than a dist-upgrade. Is that so?


Yes

Regards
me


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[DNG] qemu in devuan

[Noel Torres]

Hi all

It seems QEMU in Devuan is 2.1+dfsg-12+devuan-1 which has some  
problems like "vmport is not available".


In Debian jessie-backports it is 1:2.5+dfsg-4~bpo8+1 and in stretch it  
is 1:2.5+dfsg-5+b1


So, since I had backports enabled, I've needed to downgrade my QEMU  
when deVuanizing my physical server.


Are there plans for this? Can I help in some way?

Thanks

Noel
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Re: [DNG] grep handles ISO-8859 encoded text file as binary file.

[Noel Torres]

Hughe Chung  escribió:


Hi,

I got to use -a option to search words on C code files.


$ grep tesselate dome_math.c
Binary file dome_math.c matches


Is this only due to encoding, or may be due to a DOS/Unix difference?

If I were to bet, I would say that the file dome_math.c is not  
correctly formatted, or has an incorrect BOM at start, or so.


Create copies of two of these files (one of each class) with just the  
first three lines, and try again. Paste the files to the list if still  
happening.


Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] For all you automounter programmers

[Noel Torres]

Didier Kryn  escribió:

This isn't just a theoretical thing, lots of people don't label their
thumb drives.

Another issue is a lot of thumb drives have the same label. I bet there
are millions with the label "backup".


But there are tools on Linux to add a label to a filesystem;  
here is the first thing I do to a new usb stick:


/sbin/dosfslabel /dev/sdb1 $my_name

Very usefull when exchanging sticks.

  Didier


All my sticks are labeled, and I labeled none of them.

They all just came factory formatted as fat and factory labeled with  
the producer's name. This is my EMTEC stick (at /media/EMTEC) , this  
my BASF stick (at /media/BASF)... useful enough, since I do not use to  
plug several sticks at the same time, and even less several of the  
same brand.


Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] For all you automounter programmers

[Noel Torres]

Steve Litt  escribió:

I don't know of a way to tell pmount or udev/vdev/eudev to assign a
particular device to a thumb drive, without manually doing all the
mknod and all that. Excellent idea, very useful. But if something's
already assigned to that device, you're sol.


Insert pendrive labeled BACKUP -> Mount at /media/BACKUP
Insert another pendrive also labeled BACKUP -> Mount at /media/BACKUP_1

Not so hard :D

Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] For all you automounter programmers

[Noel Torres]

Steve Litt  escribió:

Therefore: pmount, when combined with the inotifywait automounters
we've all made, should be perfect.

Those pmount automounter commands should run as the user who plugs in
the thumb, so rather than running straight from the init, they should
probably run when you log in, and if there's already a copy running
when you log in, it does nothing.


Could we just create a package with that "devuan-automounter" and publish it?

Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] For all you automounter programmers

[Noel Torres]

Joel Roth  escribió:

As a suggestion for an aspiring automounter writer (or
reminder to self) I was thinking that if we can get a
sufficiently unique identifier from the device (UUID, etc.)
it might be nice to map that to a memorable mount target.
It could be a noun or adjective-noun from a list that would
be automatically chosen and written to the device after
mounting.
[...]
Too weird? Okay, I'm open, just something better than
/mnt/sde7.


Why not just the Label of the filesystem being mounted?

Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] What do we want for ascii ?

[Noel Torres]

Simon Walter  escribió:


[...]
It's so refreshing that you all talk freely about this subject. In  
my social and professional circles it is taboo to even mention the  
NSA. People look at me like I am a "flatearther" when I simply quote  
the news.


Which wicked kind of environment do you work on?

I work on an international major company and don't have such feelings.

Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] Printing -- now even pdf works. I have no idea why.

[Noel Torres]

Jaromil <jaro...@dyne.org> escribió:


On Thu, 21 Apr 2016, Noel Torres wrote:


Just curious...

Why not using CUPS ?

I've been using it since times' night with no issues.


I use CUPS and i'm intrigued by the thread.

I have two printers, one at home and one in the office.

After I switched to Devuan for all my personal computers, something
strange happened to me and I'm still not sure it is related to
Devuan. Believe me when I say I did look deeply into this, but still
did not manage to get the art of troubleshooting to enligthen my path.

The printer at home worked fine for years, then had some red light
blinking crisis, believing its toner was over, but it wasn't in fact,
no actual sign of it on the printed result. Nevertheless, I did change
the toner. Since the red blinking started and even after the change of
the toner (which stopped the red blinking) CUPS stopped being capable
of printing to it.


This has happened to me. Newer versions of CUPS (I do not know from  
which one) "Pause" the printer when there is some printing problem.  
Like no toner, no paper or printer disconnected.


Maybe just accessing localhost:631 and "Resume" it resolves your problem.

...or not.

Noel
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Re: [DNG] Printing -- now even pdf works. I have no idea why.

[Noel Torres]

Just curious...

Why not using CUPS ?

I've been using it since times' night with no issues.

Regards

Noel
er Envite


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Re: [DNG] mpv from devuan.org/merged is broken

[Noel Torres]

David Hare  escribió:


What is, or will be, official Devuan policy on this?


This is one of the points in which my idea of "eggs" would help, as I  
imagine it.


What I do not know is if it is doable.

Regards
er Envite


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Re: [DNG] Devuan Web A11y

[Noel Torres]

Trond Arild Ydersbond  escribió:


19. april 2016 15.45  Jaromil :



thanks to Hellekin and Golinux.
I agree they have done an outstanding job!



the aim is really at consolidating short and sharp documentation.



one thing Debian really suffers from: the dispersion of its docs.
This is understandable since it is sedimented from years of
activity.



By starting from scratch with Devuan's documentation I think we can
really make the life easier to newcomers and professionals using
Devuan.



I agree. And IMHO, it is not only the docs, but the whole approach  
to information handling where we need to improve on Debian.  How do  
we cater for tens of thousands or more users, spread over the whole  
spectrum of computing needs and with widely differing skills? We  
have to prepare for becoming hugely successful :-)


And even to Debian users. If we develop a good documentation system,  
people will start telling other people to search our docs, and  
mouth-to-ear we'll receive more visits and can explain to them why we  
are here.


Noel
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Re: [DNG] asteroids and release names.

[Noel Torres]

aitor_czr  escribió:


On 19/04/16 04:15, Gregory Nowak  wrote:

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 08:36:13PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

Ascii will be the name of version 1, won't it?

That will be jessie as far as I know.


Ascii is the codename of the testing branch in the same way as Ceres  
is the codename of the unstable branch (sid in debian). Isn't it?


  Aitor.


Ascii is the codename for the _current_ testing, not "for the testing  
branch". Ascii will become stable, someday.


Ceres is the codename for unstable, which will be always unstable. It  
gets copied to testing on stable release (and as such the disappearing  
of the previous testing)


Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] What do we want for ascii ?

[Noel Torres]

Go Linux  escribió:


This is putting the cart before the horse IMO.  It would be nice to  
get the beta out the door before focusing on ascii.   Any chance  
some of that energy could be directed towards the beta release?


My energy is mostly useless for Jessie beta, as it is now. The best I  
can do at this stage is report bugs (and we don't have a bug tracker)  
and think about things when I have a little time. And this is what I'm  
doing :D


Regards
er Envite


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Re: [DNG] What do we want for ascii ?

[Noel Torres]

Steve Litt  escribió:


I must have missed a step. Ascii is an 7 bit character encoding code
where space is decimal 32, and tilde is decimal 126, 10 is Linefeed, 13
is Carriage Return, 48 is 0, 65 is A, and 97 is a. How do all your
bullet points relate to such a code?


https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/devuan-codenames

Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] What do we want for ascii ?

[Noel Torres]

Hendrik Boom  escribió:


On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 08:11:16AM +1200, Daniel Reurich wrote:


> What do we (the DNG people) want for ascii ?
>
> * our own bug reporting system
yes please


Crosslinked where appropriate with similar bugs on other distros, such
as Debian, so that an automated script can inform us when they are
fixed.


This would be great.



> * a method for dividing Devuan in "cases" or "eggs" that do not
> interfere with each other. E.g. the KDE egg, the LibreOffice egg, the
> multimedia egg... maybe tasks with steroids?
there could be some improvements to the dependency chains to be had,
but overall I think this is unworkable.


What does this provide that isn't already proided by packages that
depend, say , on all the components of KDE? or of LibreOffice?, etc.
Is this different from what dselect provides?  If so, how?


The idea is avoiding crossed dependencies that make partial upgrades a  
nightmare. A package that simply depends on other packages is the  
worst solution.



> * Long Term Support for server whit a method for fast updating certain
> packages (like virus lists)
This is pretty much already there.  What we need is a security team with
sufficient resources to be able to patch long standing bugs in debian.
Updated virus lists?? Linux doesn't get virus's...


Other systems do, and Linux systems are often used as servers to those
other systems.


This is what I was thinking about, e.g. Mail server with ClamAV.

Regards
er Envite


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[DNG] What do we want for ascii ?

[Noel Torres]

My Excel macros are a bit slow today (Yes, I said Excel, I use that at  
work) so I started wondering...


What do we (the DNG people) want for ascii ?

My list starts as this:
* full init freedom, that is, all init methods being equally supported  
(sysv, upstart, systemd) and nothing depending on any of them.

* our own bug reporting system
* a method for dividing Devuan in "cases" or "eggs" that do not  
interfere with each other. E.g. the KDE egg, the LibreOffice egg, the  
multimedia egg... maybe tasks with steroids?

* a rock-solid server platform for all architectures
* a sufficiently solid desktop and laptop platform for most usual  
architectures
* Long Term Support for server whit a method for fast updating certain  
packages (like virus lists)


What do YOU want for ascii ?

Regards

Noel
er Envite


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Re: [DNG] Fw: Beginning of the End for Wheezy [sigh!]

[Noel Torres]

Steve Litt  escribió:


Hi all,

I know many of you are using Devuan in production and as your Daily
Driver. Patrick from debian-user expressed some trepidation about
moving to Devuan in his impending escape from a systemd-encumbered
Debian, and I figure maybe if he heard a few of your use cases, he
might feel more confident about his future in Linux. Please copy
Patrick in your replies.


I have Devuan Jessie on my main computer, which is both server and  
desktop. I have some inconsistencies due to how I made the migration  
and where I was before it (I like to play with sid and experimental),  
but I found no major issues. I use virtual machines inside that box to  
bring my DNS, Apache, SMTP, POP3+IMAP, web mailserver... most of them  
with Devuan Jessie as well (some with older Debian distros... I do not  
update those machines as I should).


Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] apt-get vs. aptitude ?

[Noel Torres]

Nate Bargmann <n...@n0nb.us> escribió:


* On 2016 16 Apr 15:15 -0500, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 16/04/2016 19:47, Noel Torres a écrit :
>
>I regularly use aptitude's CUI (I use to name it as text-mode GUI). Mostly
>because it has that wonderful "Mark as automatically installed" mode, that
>allows packages to be more easily updated or removed.

This feature also exists in synaptic :-)


I manage several boxes with Aptitude's CUI over an SSH session.  I'm
not always someplace where X forwarding would be feasible.  In fact, I
have X forwarding disabled.

- Nate


Same here. I prefer text-mode GUI for Aptitude, because I also do it  
on servers with no X at all


Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] apt-get vs. aptitude ?

[Noel Torres]

Didier Kryn  escribió:

You guys all talk of aptitude as a CLI. But it is essentially a  
CUI (Curses User Interface) supposed to give you diverse views of  
the status of your packages and of what you are doing. I could never  
make any sense of this CUI, although I know people who do. I've  
completely given up on this and use only apt-get and synaptic.  
Synaptic is a GUI, very straightforward to use. I think aptitude  
could be as easy  but it has been developped by geeks for their own  
use without care for the general admin and without a sensible  
documentation.


I regularly use aptitude's CUI (I use to name it as text-mode GUI).  
Mostly because it has that wonderful "Mark as automatically installed"  
mode, that allows packages to be more easily updated or removed.


Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] http://packages.devuan.org/merged/pool/ empty?

[Noel Torres]

Daniel Reurich  escribió:
[...]

Yup.  Absolutely normal.  You issue is  probably just a transient issue
resulting from the lag between a debian update and amprolla rebuilding
the merged repo.


How long should it last?

If we intend to develop a solid distribution, the pool being  
unavailable is exactly the opposite direction.


Regards

Noel


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Re: [DNG] http://packages.devuan.org/merged/pool/ empty?

[Noel Torres]

Daniel Reurich  escribió:


Hi Noel,

Long time...


Too long. I'm just reading the list now, but trying to use Devuan on  
physical+7VM



[...]
Yup.  Absolutely normal.  You issue is  probably just a transient issue
resulting from the lag between a debian update and amprolla rebuilding
the merged repo.


Thanks

Noel
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[DNG] http://packages.devuan.org/merged/pool/ empty?

[Noel Torres]

I've just tried to update my systen and found this:

http://packages.devuan.org/merged ascii/main amd64 libc6 amd64 2.22-4 [ERROR]
 404  Not Found

so I went to http://packages.devuan.org/ and found that the  
/merged/pool/ subdirectory is empty


Is this normal?

Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] leveldb support proposal

[Noel Torres]

Rainer Weikusat <rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com> escribió:


Noel Torres <env...@rolamasao.org> writes:

Let's forget what is NOT important

"Ivan J." <para...@dyne.org> escribió:
[...]

What I am proposing is Devuan to support multiple versions of leveldb
and tie Bitcoin packages to the right one. Another option is to never

[...]

This is not only an issue with so-called leveldb. It happens a lot
that two packages you need request different versions of the same
library, not always co-installable. Mostly if you go beyond "stable".
Or even if you got stuck on oldstable and try to install some simple
new package.

And this is a good amount of the "dependency hell" when it comes to
Desktop users.

So, I think that having some way of installing multiple versions of
the same library would be a useful feature.


But this already exists. Eg, the machine I usually use for development
(Debian 6 based) has the following version of libdb installed:

ii  libdb4.2 4.2.52+dfsg-5 Berkeley v4.2 Database  
Libraries [runtime]
ii  libdb4.5 4.5.20-13 Berkeley v4.5 Database  
Libraries [runtime]
ii  libdb4.6 4.6.21-16 Berkeley v4.6 Database  
Libraries [runtime]
ii  libdb4.7 4.7.25-9  Berkeley v4.7 Database  
Libraries [runtime]
ii  libdb4.8 4.8.30-2  Berkeley v4.8 Database  
Libraries [runtime]
ii  libdb4.8-dev 4.8.30-2  Berkeley v4.8 Database  
Libraries [development]


That's just a matter of using a different soname whenever something
changes in a backward incompatible way. Even for cases where the soname
is fixed 'for political reasons' aka 'glibc', the issue is supposed to
be handled transparently via symbol versioning.


THIS is an example of how to do it properly. But you can not  
(currently) version virtual packages.


Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] leveldb support proposal

[Noel Torres]

Didier Kryn <k...@in2p3.fr> escribió:


Le 01/03/2016 11:37, Noel Torres a écrit :
It happens a lot that two packages you need request different  
versions of the same library, not always co-installable. Mostly if  
you go beyond "stable". Or even if you got stuck on oldstable and  
try to install some simple new package.


And this is a good amount of the "dependency hell" when it comes to  
Desktop users.


So, I think that having some way of installing multiple versions of  
the same library would be a useful feature. Heck, even windows does  
that in (some) right way.


I hesitated to reply because I know my answer is politically  
incorrect. "dependency hell" is the consequence of dynamic linkage.  
I understand that dynamic linkage is a necessity for distros, but if  
the concern is about one package, this very one can be linked  
statically. Just search for "static" in synaptic and you'll see that  
many Debian packages, including bash and zsh have static versions,  
therefore it is not so politically incorrect. Therefore nothing  
prevents bitcoin from being statically linked - only glibc remaining  
dynamic.


Didier


My concern is not about one package, but about any situation in which  
upgrading any single package gives you a hell.


Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] leveldb support proposal

[Noel Torres]

Let's forget what is NOT important

"Ivan J."  escribió:
[...]

What I am proposing is Devuan to support multiple versions of leveldb
and tie Bitcoin packages to the right one. Another option is to never

[...]

This is not only an issue with so-called leveldb. It happens a lot  
that two packages you need request different versions of the same  
library, not always co-installable. Mostly if you go beyond "stable".  
Or even if you got stuck on oldstable and try to install some simple  
new package.


And this is a good amount of the "dependency hell" when it comes to  
Desktop users.


So, I think that having some way of installing multiple versions of  
the same library would be a useful feature. Heck, even windows does  
that in (some) right way.


Aptitude would, of course, take care of the not-anymore-needed versions.

So, forget Bitcoin for a moment and think: is this something it would  
be worth having for Devuan as a whole?


Noel
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Re: [DNG] Predictable Network Interface Names - Stupid or good idea?

[Noel Torres]

On Saturday, 9 de January de 2016 11:41:27 Anto escribió:
> Hello Everybody,
> 
> I have just rented a KVM VPS. I started with Debian squeeze, pin
> everything related to systemd to -1, then upgraded to Debian wheezy.
> After I upgraded udev to version 220 using eudev, I could not connect to
> my VPS any more after reboot. This has never happened on my other VPS'
> but they are all Xen-PV based VPS.
> 
> It turned out that the eth0 interface was changed to ens3, due to the
> implementation of Predictable Network Interface Names
> (http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/PredictableNetworkInterfa
> ceNames). I can change everything which contain eth0 into ens3, but I
> prefer to keep the old interface naming. So my temporary solution is to
> add
> net.ifnames=0 into the kernel command line.
> 
> I have been indoctrinated myself that everything come from systemd gang
> are stupid and bad. After reading the above link and some other pages
> from systemd supporters, I think I might have to change my mind about
> that Predictable Network Interface Names idea. But I am not entirely
> sure yet. What do you guys think about that?
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Anto
> 
> ___
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Predictable Network Interface Names are a good idea. Really wonderful, as long 
as they are Really Predictable (TM).

Really Predictable means that if you predict eth0 it will be eth0 and not 
ens3. That is: it MUST NOT affect existing interface names on upgrades.

Regards

er Envite, back from the grave

-- 
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Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

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Spiral galaxies always have at least TWO arms.


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Re: [DNG] Ian Murdock

[Noel Torres]

On Wednesday, 30 de December de 2015 21:01:17 Franco Lanza escribió:
> I think we should release a communicate about Ian
> to celebrate him and mourn he's death.
> 
> R.I.P. Ian, you are the father of devuan too.

Do it. And some other kind of homage will be fine too.

er Envite
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Re: [DNG] Devuan and upstream

[Noel Torres]

James Powell james4...@hotmail.com escribió:
[...]
Devuan should follow the Debian methodology, but equally it should  
forge it's own path away from Debian. It doesn't need to draw from  
any other distribution like Funtoo, CRUX, Slackware, or anything  
other distributions, other than seeing what people are using and in  
need of. The wants will be many, but what users need will matter  
most of all.

[...]

I have thought extensively (in some sort of silence, I suppose, since  
you have not heard of^H read from me for a long time) in this issue of  
packages and dependencies, and I have come across an idea, that of  
boxes.


Everyone that has anytime been trapped in the Dependency Hell knows  
about the complicated chains of dependencies in Debian. As a simple  
example, today it is impossible to install LibreOffice 5 and KDE  
together, since libreoffice 1:5.0.1~rc1-2 ends depending on libstdc++6  
5.2.1-15 while kde-full 5:81 end depending on libkolabxml1 1.1.0-3  
(the highest version available), but libstdc++6 Breaks libkolabxml1 =  
1.1.0-3


These chains of dependencies can be shortened if we use boxes of  
packages. They are not metapackages, but a new idea, albeit somewhat  
similar.


Why is LibreOffice worth a dozen packages? If I want LibreOffice, I  
want it all (Thanks, Queen). So I install the LibreOffice box. The box  
on its own will install the needed packages and care for the internal  
dependencies, and provide a shiny dependencies inteface to the other  
boxes. And of course, boxes can be inside boxes.


This way, boxes are managed as simple units, migrate from ceres to  
testing as complete units, etc. They also allow for efficient  
teamworking.


e.g. The LAMP box contains (and iterfaces with) the Apache box and the  
MySQL box. The LAMP box controls the migration of all of Apache, PHP  
and MySQL packages, to ensure they all work properly and are  
coinstallable.


Just two (or maybe three) euro cents.

regards

Noel
er Envite


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Re: [DNG] devuan LTS

[Noel Torres]

KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org escribió:


On Thu, Jul 16, 2015 at 09:57:08PM -0700, James Powell wrote:
An LTS branch isn't needed if you do version controlled releases  
and sponsor support for versioned releases for at least 3-4  
versions back.


[cut]



As releases mature, 1.0 would be maintained until the fourth or  
fifth release year following, then pastured, regardless of version  
number. The only time the main number should be changed is IF and  
ONLY IF glibc is updated, otherwise 1.0 would transmigrate to 1.1.


How does that sound?



It sounds like Slackware, and there is a clear reason why I have been
using Debian and not Slackware. I believe that the
stable-testing-unstable-experimental organisation is working already
fine. We can discuss whether we have the possibility (and the
resources) to provide long-time support releases, but if you guys want
to make a Slackvuan, then don't count me in.


I think the plan is FIVE branches:

+experimental (always experimental, packages migrate to development)
+development (always development, packages migrate to testing, gets  
cloned into testing on stable release)

+testing (transforms into stable on release)
*stable (transforms into oldstable on release)
+oldstable (disappears on release)

I think the support given to stable + oldstable is enough for business  
needs: it may be 2+2 years!


Regards

Noel
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Re: [DNG] Packages aren't the only path to alternate inits

[Noel Torres]

Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr escribió:
[...]

I expect the dependency chain should be something like:
daemon depends on: init, daemon-sysv-init | daemon-epoch-init  
| daemon-systemd-init | daemon-openrc-init |  
daemon-upstart-init


And if each of those daemon-*-init packages depended on their  
respective init system, and each of those init systems provide the  
virtual package init (as is the case in Debian and Devuan  
Jessie), then apt should be able to work out that when installing  
daemon that because sysvinit-core is the package providing init  
that it must also install daemon-sysv-init in order to satisfy  
the dependency.  The problem is whether changing init systems would  
result in pulling in the new daemon-*-init dependency required  
for the new init system.


Thoughts??



This is the normal way of implementing this kind of multiple  
alternative dependencies in Debian, AFAIU. The only reason I did not  
advocate this before is that it would bring in a bunch of new  
packages each containing only one small file. But this might not be  
a big deal after all, considering it solves the problem completely,  
allows to get rid of the irritating systemd service files, and  
treats all other init systems equally.


I support this idea.
Didier


I support it as well, but this implies the extra work of putting the  
sysvinit scripts in separate packages, and that's quite a lot of work,  
and deepens the Delta with our Upstream (a.k.a. Debian), so when they  
fix something (e.g. a bug in Apache) we will need to port that to our  
package, instead of just copying their package.


Maybe a compromise solution is to do this for all init systems but  
sysvinit, for Jessie, and work on the fully hairy dependency chain  
for Jessie+1 a.k.a Ascii.


Just my one-and-a-half cents

Envite from beneath the forgotten


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Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

[Noel Torres]

Didier Kryn k...@in2p3.fr escribió:

[...]
I bet every service daemon package would now provide a .service  
file, just like everyone used to provide an init script. As far as I  
understand, the .service files are the systemd counterpart of  
sysvinit scripts. I imagine it is just enough to remove the file  
from the package; it would be usefull only to systemd.


Didier


There is no reason to remove them. That would be a Delta that we must  
maintain package over package, version after version. Just allow them  
to be there, unused.


Please remember that our objective is not to forbid nor impede usage  
of systemd. A Devuan user might quite well **CHOOSE** to use systemd  
(well, not for the first version that we will launch without systemd  
at all). Our objective is to allow freedom. It would be wonderful if  
all packages provides start/stop scripts for all init systems.


Regards

Noel
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Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

[Noel Torres]

Anto arya...@chello.at escribió:
[...]

Hello Noel,

I think I have a good reason to want to have them removed. I hate them :)


You are free to do so.


I don't think Devuan should provide the option to use systemd. Why  
should it? The decision in Debian to default the init system to  
systemd is the main reason to fork Debian in the first place. And  
the users who want systemd are better of using Debian instead of  
Devuan.


You don't think that we should provide the option. But we should,  
because not doing so means removing freedom fro mour users: removing  
the freedom to use systemd.


We are not anti-systemd, we are anti-systemd-being-imposed. And the  
first step is to create a distribution able to work without systemd at  
all.


Truly speaking, we are no anti-anything. We are pro-freedom (including  
the freedom to choose systemd). This was extensively discussed on the  
first days of this list.


On my particular case, I want to have that cron.service file gone as  
that is the main reason for me to re-compile it.


Well, I would say that is not a reason to recompile it at all, but  
that's up to you. I say, tough, that only the removal of a systemd  
service file is not a reason for Devuan to maintain a Delta over  
Debian (and all the associated wasted effort).


Cheers,

Anto


Regards

Noel
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Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

[Noel Torres]

Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com escribió:


On Tue, 05 May 2015 16:50:13 +0200
Anto arya...@chello.at wrote:


In my view, the decision to use systemd as the default init of Debian
forces the locked-in of massive number of packages into systemd. That
is the main problem which leads to the birth of Devuan. They then
provide workarounds for people who want to use other init systems,
e.g. shim, etc., to be able to use the whole systemd base distro.

Cheers,

Anto


As a guy involved in the Debian-User systemd wars, and an early
resident of the Modular-Debian and Dng lists, what Anto says is how I
remember things. We were going for sans-systemd, not systemd optional.


Hi Steve:

We are going sans-systemd for Jessie, to be able to give our users  
true freedom at some point. Debian gives no freedom since systemd is  
imposed (forget chatter about the meaning of default and headless  
machines).


It was clearly said before: our main points are freedom and choice.  
And yes, this includes freedom to choose the worst ever init system  
dinosaur out there.


Why do we, then, remove systemd?

Because it is so intrincately depended on by the core of a Debian  
system that we can not simply get Debian and remove the systemd  
bits. We owe our users a truly systemd-free system, and that's why we  
are here, but we do not owe them a systemd-forbidding system.


We are building a distribution, and as such we make decisions and set  
defaults. But the user is in the wheel, not us. There is where Debian  
failed us.


Do I want systemd in my boxes? For sure not, but I still want to be  
free to choose yes inside Devuan, exactly the same I'm free to shout  
some political views on the street. It's a matter of freedom, not a  
matter of forbidding. Devuan gives me the choice, and I will chose No  
systemd, thanks.


As a resume: If you want a systemd-free system, Devuan is your  
distribution, and will always be. But if you want a system designed to  
be unable to run systemd, please leave us. This is not the place for  
such an anti-freedom POV.


To the service files removal point: don't be the Inquisition. It just  
gives extra work for no gain. Keeping the files off means keeping a  
constant patch, whose work will be better invested in actually  
removing dependencies on systemd in other packages, testing the  
distribution, building sane environments, etc.


Regards

Noel
er envite


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Re: [Dng] Which package generates /lib/systemd and /etc/systemd files?

[Noel Torres]

Anto arya...@chello.at escribió:


On 05/05/15 18:52, Noel Torres wrote:


As a resume: If you want a systemd-free system, Devuan is your  
distribution, and will always be. But if you want a system designed  
to be unable to run systemd, please leave us. This is not the place  
for such an anti-freedom POV.




Are you for real?

Do you understand the impact on what you wrote?


Of course yes. We are not a bunch of anti-systemd fanboys, but a set  
of system administrators that want to be free not to have systemd  
imposed on us by what was our distribution of choice for its technical  
soundness and reliability: Debian.


How much efforts will that be to support systemd *without* any  
locked-in? I believe this is what you meant, because Devuan will be


That of the required effort is a completely different issue to that of  
freedom!
exactly the same as Debian if the support for systemd would also  
force the locked-in of a lot of packages. And unless the number of  
Devuan developers will be as many as Debian developers, I think you  
are just dreaming.


Yes, dreaming, but also setting a line on the sand: rejecting systemd  
on Devuan for reason A is good, and for reason B is bad. The line is  
on the reasons, not on systemd itself.


I can write this now that you can be sure I will be the first one to  
leave Devuan as soon as it starts to support systemd. This  
encourages me to start learning about building a deb repository and  
forking, because as soon as Devuan starts to support systemd, it  
will be much easier for me to fork Devuan.


Feel free to leave, fork, contribute or just argue with me, but even  
if you leave, I'll support your freedom.


It is quite sad for me to write this as Devuan does not even exist  
yet. But I can see it now that the future of Devuan is not really  
promising for me. I will wait and still be around until that day  
comes.


Regards

Noel
er Envite


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Re: [Dng] simple backgrounds

[Noel Torres]

On Thursday, 26 de February de 2015 17:54:01 Jaromil escribió:
 On Thu, 26 Feb 2015, etech3 wrote:
  +1 hendrik
 
 yes, we will not cover up boot with framebuffer stuff for sure.
 
 so to say
 
 Devuan is sugar-free and doesn't makes your computer fat :^)

I want the freedom to take my Devuan with sugar!

Now seriously: some things are important, and some are prescindible. I'm a 
heavy user of text consoles, but I do so in a DE because I like some things 
that DE gives me: a browser, a PDF viewer for all the documentation I need to 
read, camera and USB automounting, Eclipse, gitg and so on.

While I use not to be able to see my desktop background, it's there, and I'd 
like to have a Devuan one.

I volunteer to create some backgrounds, quite fast, once we have a logo. 
Preferrably a logo and colour palette (but the pair of darl blue and orange 
works quite well).

Regards

er Envite
-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

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Re: [Dng] Init Freedom badges

[Noel Torres]

On Saturday, 21 de February de 2015 18:49:35 hellekin escribió:
 On 02/21/15 13:40, Go Linux wrote:
  Urm . . . it's about more than just init and that needs to be conveyed in
  the badge.
 
 *** It says if :)
 
  https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-art/blob/devuan-alpha/graphic
 s/init-freedom/if.png

I'd prefer any logo that does not use english initials or play on words.

er Envite
-- 
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Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

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Re: [Dng] KDE systemd lock-in

[Noel Torres]

On Saturday, 21 de February de 2015 18:52:22 Nate Bargmann escribió:
 * On 2015 20 Feb 11:56 -0600, Steve Litt wrote:
  On Fri, 20 Feb 2015 08:59:33 -0800
  
  Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com wrote:
   We all knew this was coming . . .
   
   KDE Will Depend on 'logind' and 'timedated' in 6 Months
   
   https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=15/02/20/101235
 
 Following on here since I inadvertently deleted Go Linux's post.
 
 Ughh, so they will apparently drop legacy support.  Why?  What does it
 hurt?  Why is backward compatibility anathema to these people?  I
 couldn't care less if they want to use various systemd services, but why
 can there only be one way?  Imagine the chaos if the maintainers of the
 C library behaved in a like manner (okay, we'd have Python, but I
 digress ;-).
 
 I guess that I am simply too dense to get the current paradigm.
 Actually, I do get it and this is now simply unacceptable behavior from
 supposedly free software projects.
 
 - Nate

This is the same as depending on a library like QT.

The article specifies it will not depend on systemd as init, just on its 
services logind and timedated.

Why not? If I were a developer and I had a library or service doing part of my 
work, I would link to it and delete duplicated code on my side.

I do not re-program printf everytime I need some output.

er Envite
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Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

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[Dng] Devuan Weekly News XIII

[Noel Torres]

# Devuan Weekly News Issue XIII

__Volume 002, Week 8, Devuan Week 13__

Released 24/02/12015 [HE](Why-HE)

https://git.devuan.org/Envite/devuan-weekly-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-002/issue-013


## Editorial

In the same way that Devuan is the project of a group, with people
more dedicated and people around giving advice and support, and
thoughts and opinions, the Devuan Weekly News (soon to change name)
is the project of a group as well. Like Devuan, it is a growing group,
with a small core doing the hard resuming work but several other eyes
providing advice, hunting for typos, making small text contibutions
and, in general, proofreading.

I want to expressly thank those people who make the last issues of
DWN possible. You can [contribute too][wiki]!

.-Envite


## Last Week in Devuan

### Unanswered questions

Some threads on the list are questions that have been not answered.

Isaac Dunham [asks][1] for the best way to split a library package,
for his libsysdev project.

### [Trios packages openrc][2]

lkcl reports that somebody at Debian User Forums reports that Trios
GNU/Linux uses OpenRC and is free of systemd, and wonders about this
kind of info being hard to find. golinux answers that this was already
posted on this list. Some other list members informed that it works
for them.

### [Adoption of packages][3]

In the long thread about *towards systemd-free packages* hellekin
reminds us that

 Volunteers for package adoption can now head to the
 [devuan-maintainers][0] project.

### [The Onion Principle][4]

Noel shows us why concentrating in developing only core systemd-free
packages does not mean that we are currently a real fork nor a
derivative, since that depends on what we add to that core in
subsequent releases.

 To resume the principle: The best way to create a very complex
 project is to add one layer at a time.

### [XFCE et al][5]

David H points us at XFCE which runs in FreeBSD and OpenIndiana
virtual Machines as well as in Linux, and is about to publish a new
release. He wonders if one of the Devuan developers should contact
them, and the unanimous answer was that he can do that himself.

On a [later thread][6], David confirmed that he contacted them by
e-mail.

### [removing systemd and libsystemd0 in a desktop][7]

lkcl reports that he progressed in the task of removing libsystemd0
in a computer running a desktop. He later reports that turning off
autoconfiguration on Xorg makes the trick.

Isaac Dunham reports that he has been able too to have a working Xorg
without udev, thanks to a clever trick:

 The trick is that input devices have a description at
 /sys/dev/char/major:minor/device/name

Now it seems clear that a good part of the Depends on udev are not
true dependencies.

lkcl also [publicited it in slashdot][8].

### [mdev packaging][9]

In a branch to the previous thread, Isaac Dunham reports that he has
packaged mdev. Then it follows some back and forth about issues with
the new code. This is an architecture-independent script to make boxes
bootable without udev.

### [mdev and udev][10]

In a sub-branch of the previous branch, Godefridus Daalmans asks if
purging udev means creates need for the old-style makedev. Isaac
Dunham answers that mdev does not depend on makedev.

### [LoginKit on the pre-alpha][11]

Dima reports that the Valentine's pre-alpha is able to work with
LoginKit.

### [systemd free badge][12]

Jaromil suggests the idea of creating a badge about a distribution
being systemd-free, to be used by all distributions that share the
same idea.

hellekin raises the concern that it might be overpolarizing the issue
and maybe giving systemd some publicity it doesn't deserve.

Joel Roth, on the other hand, suggested using a different text for the
badge on the lines of Classical Unix Administration and some others.

David Harrison suggests changing to the stanza of an [Init Freedom
badge][13]. Init Freedom gained some traction on the list.

### [Linux kernel and the force behind it][14]

hal stars a discussion about an [Ars Technica article][15] about the
development speed of the Linux kernel, and how it may be being
directed by big companie like Red Hat Inc.

Gravis makes a point about most patches coming from companies are for
drivers, bug fixes and new features, not for changinf the main
direction of the kernel development.

John Crisp cites a [comment from Trevor Potts][16] to an article in
The Register, the comment indicating that the point on systemd is that
Red Hat is effectively trying to dominate the Linux ecosystem by
making as much software as possible dependent on systemd and thus
render Linux (and Linus) prescindible.

Discussion then mutated in another one about intended audience for
Devuan, and later on to a one about pros and cons of dbus over
alternative solutions like standard IPC, SunRPC, and ZeroMQ.

A branch on the audience side started by Nate praises the pragmatic
approach of going with Xfce as Devuan's default desktop for the first
release.

Re: [Dng] GDM switched to wayland by default

[Noel Torres]

On Monday, 23 de February de 2015 16:26:03 Steve Litt escribió:
 On Sun, 22 Feb 2015 11:06:03 -0500
 
 Jude Nelson jud...@gmail.com wrote:
  Not according to their documentation:
  * the weston launcher program (weston-launch) needs extra privileges
  to issue the KMS ioctl()s.  It can do so via systemd, or you can make
  weston-launch setuid root.
 
 Thank you Jude. That is *such* a relief. I already setuid root my X
 executable so slitt can run it.
 
  * weston can use systemd to find the directory in which to put its
  control socket, or you can set the environment variable
  $XDG_RUNTIME_DIR in your shell before running it.
 
 I love environment variables.

This is one of the most stupid ones on history.

er Envite
-- 
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Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

OpenPGP key: 1586 50C8 7DBF B050 DE62  EA12 70B4 00F3 EEC7 C372

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Re: [Dng] OT - It may be only one file, but it does point to the bigger problem!

[Noel Torres]

On Sunday, 22 de February de 2015 18:28:06 Jim Murphy escribió:
[...]
 If I have a btrfs mirror and I didn't mess with it by setting FS_NOCOW,
 shouldn't I be able to recover the file?  I would sure hope so.  He
 creates this better way of logging, then he seems to not even care if
 you can use it.

Isn't btrfs the contrary to KISS?

We have RAID tools like mdadm for RAID, and filesystems like ext4 or Reiserfs 
for file storage.

Why would I want a tool combining both?

er Envite
-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

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Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11

[Noel Torres]

On Tuesday, 24 de February de 2015 00:35:59 Gravis escribió:
 ha! jude it's perfect.  if there was ever a Master Control Program, it
 would be systemd. ;)

Partitioning memory, controlling permissions, access to hardware, managing 
networks, shredding programs from memory... I always thought MCP was Linux, 
before Linux was conceived :D

er Envite
-- 
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Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

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Re: [Dng] XFCE et al

[Noel Torres]

On Friday, 20 de February de 2015 17:17:16 Jaromil escribió:
[...]
 please go ahead, we count on everyone here to take initiative and do
 what one thinks can be useful for the progress of this project, which is
 not just made of code, obviously.

True. There are Devuan Weekly News as well ;)

To elaborate a bit more: I am a long time Unix Administrator, but not really a 
programmer. So I decided to help the project in a way I can be useful: by 
creating (first) and helping (now) the weekly news.

Put shy at a side: this is not Debian, and there are no Debian Developers 
looking other contributors over the shoulder.

As a shoemaker company said, Just Do It.

er Envite
-- 
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?

OpenPGP key: 1586 50C8 7DBF B050 DE62  EA12 70B4 00F3 EEC7 C372

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[Dng] The Onion Principle

[Noel Torres]

After reading the whole keep as close to debian as possible thread, and in 
my well-known spirit of resuming threads, I think we can benefit from the 
Principle of the Onion.

At first stage (Devuan Jessie), we'll use a pinned repository with our 
desinfected packages, to provide our users (that's ourselves, in the first run) 
with the One Thing that made us congregate: a systemd-free Debian. Some 
packages (like Gnome) may become uninstallable from Debian repository and 
absent from ours: that's OK.

After that (Devuan Aiken or Alhambra), we'll increment the amount of packages 
*WE* take care of. How much each of these packages takes from and gives to 
Debian depends on each maintainer. Some people will be happy of maintaining 
the same package both for Debian and Devuan. Some pairs of people will have 
good relations and share patched back and forth. Some pairs of people will 
have bad relations and packages will diverge between Debian and Devuan, and 
there will be a core of systemd-free packages that will be technically 
impossible to share. The Onion will have three layers now: a systemd-free 
core, a Devuan-specific but not-core set of packages, and the Debian 
repository.

While time develops, more layers will be added to the Onion from the saucy 
inner core to the skinny external layers. Will Debian always be the onion 
skin? We do not know, and it is not important just now.

To resume the principle: The best way to create a very complex project is to 
add one layer at a time.

Regards

er Envite


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Re: [Dng] Please!! revive Bastille hardening tool for Devuan - Conflict of Interest

[Noel Torres]

On Thursday, 12 de February de 2015 18:28:15 Usspookes Lovesystemd escribió:
 Why? Bastille is/was great.
 
 It didn't change, the rug was pulled out from underneath it.
 Who would have thought routines in TK and ncurses would be
 Dpreeeciattteedd!!! (gay voice of the SJWers)

I'll put it clear.

Will you help packaging it?

Thanks


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[Dng] Devuan Weekly News XII

[Noel Torres]

# Devuan Weekly News Issue XII

__Volume 002, Week 7, Devuan Week 12__

https://git.devuan.org/Envite/devuan-weekly-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-002/issue-012


## Editorial

__Hit a Wall?  Here's a Ladder__

An uneasy wind blew fetid laments of arrogance and ivory towering.

These accusations are plain wrong.  They come as voices from people
invited to a cooking party sitting on their asses and complaining to
the host who just arrived from the market that the meal is not ready.
If you see a wall, you should get up from your chair and move around
it.

OK, the site sucks, the absence of logo sucks, the release is not
ready, Winter is too cold, Summer is too hot, etc.  There's plenty to
complain about.  But if you look around, you'll see a vastness of
empty space with work to do that's just waiting for you to pick it up
and make it nice.

If _you lack time_, the [Devuan Weekly News][wiki] is saving you some
by pointing to what's being said on the mailing list.  It's volunteer
work, and you're welcome to give a hand.  As the list traffic grows,
more attention is required to read everything and get to the point.
Every week.

If _you have time_, you can [explore the
Gitlab](https://git.devuan.org/explore) and see what's cooking.  You
can even register an account and chime in, opening issues, solving
issues, meeting people, and joining teams.

Here's from the [project's wiki][1]:

 During the initial phase, until 1.0 is released, we shall follow a
 very simple conceptual line: the more you do, the stronger your
 voice on decisions.

(Hint: complaining and bikeshedding are not doing)

.-hellekin


## Last Week in Devuan

### [About separate mailing lists][2]

The first issue to track this week started in DWN XI, where Noel
Envite raised the question of separating the single DNG list (this
one) into a users list and a dev list. Steve Litt suggested that maybe
the line should be drawn differently, like code Vs. philosophy, which
was effectively in line with Envite's proposal. Others suggest that it
is not the moment, or that users should be aware of what developers
do. The thread also had its own amount of litter.

### [Community polls on Devuan design][3]

The thread about the logo poll saw an announce of partial results from
Jaromil as well as a recommendation to the design team about keeping
these results in mind when designing. It seems this whole thread created
some confusion, as hellekin points out later.

The DWN team (currently Noel Envite and hellekin) wants to state that:

* Our opinions count exactly the same as any other opinion.
* We try to provide a neutral view of what is happening on Devuan, but
  we positively do not refrain from shedding our own light on it.
* We welcome you to help us, and cast your own light as well.
* We do not endorse any logo proposal.
* We think democracy (and polls) are not always the best solution,
  specially when they can cause discussions on the [roof of a
  bikeshed][4].
* We think that a dedicated visual design team is a good idea, and
  that it should be a part of, and fully attentive to the community.

In summary: please keep Devuan Jessie going on, whatever we use for
the roof of the bikeshed (or as the distribution logo).

### [Raspberry Pi 2][5]

Robert Storey highlights the newly released Raspberry Pi 2, which
could be used to test ARM support for Devuan. Jaromil informed about
the possibility of selling Devuan preinstalled Raspberry Pi boxes. Wim
reported that Raspberry Foundation will use Debian Jessie with systemd
included. We also got news about ARM machines bought by Devuan.

### [Kali Linux][6]

The previous thread offspringed this one about whether Kali Linux does
actually have systemd. The consensus (trolls permitting) is that it
doesn't in the standard installation.

### Bastille Linux

The discussion about Bastille Linux keeps going on with quite a high
trolling level (it is not an error there is no link here). If somebody
deserves to be quoted, he is william moss, [throwing some sanity
in][7].

### [Guidelines][8]

Mitt requests guidelines about trademarks and non-free stuff. Our
hellekin notes that the current focus is on providing a systemd-free
Jessie, with almost no other changes.

### [*dev and screen resolution][9]

SteveT asks if `vdev` could not change screen resolution. The various
answers point that no `*dev` actually does that, but may delegate the
functionality to a module that does on its own.

### [depinit][10]

Jonathan Wilkes indicates `depinit`, yet another alternate init
system.

### [Has modern Linux lost its way?][11]

Nate Bargmann started this week's most prolific thread by pointing to
a blog post by John Goerzen in which the issue of modern Linux being
difficult to administer and troubleshoot is discussed.

Article and followup by John are [here][12] and [here][13].

The thread has a fair amount of thanks posts and its dose of troll
posts. In fact, the list people seems to mostly agree on the points,
and in particular that 

[Dng] Devuan Weekly News X

[Noel Torres]

# [Devuan Weekly News][current] Issue X

__Volume 02, Week 5, Devuan Week 10__

https://git.devuan.org/Envite/devuan-weekly-news/past-issues/volume-02/issue-010

## Editorial

The public surface of the project grows with the addition of new
communication channels, mentioned below. This seems to mean that we
are building a sane community. Devuan is still a small group of people
with different interests and with even more different goals, but we
work by polite discussion and we are coming to common grounds to
make a shared effort to produce a free Linux distribution.

And free, for us, means that the user should have the freedom to
choose which software pieces run on her computer.


## Announcement

Devuan now has an official Twitter account @DevuanOrg and an official
Google+ community Devuan Linux. DWN will include news from those sources:

+ Twitter account: https://twitter.com/DevuanOrg/status/560915541049610240
+ Google+ Community: 
https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/107769028740033535625


## Last Week in Devuan

### [Versioning][1]

The thread about how to number the Devuan versions of Debian packages
continues on with discussions about the bumping problem (when Debian
bumps its own version number) and the pinning solution. Noel er
Envite explained how pinning works, and there were rough consensus,
started by Adam Borowski, about pinning our repository above Debian
repositories but not above priority 1000, and not even above 990.

### [Boot loader][2]

Steve Litt raised the issue of the boot loader for Devuan, stating
that GRUB 2 is as complex as systemd. He was pointed to GRUB Legacy,
LILO and ELILO, and syslinux and extlinux were named as well. About
GRUB 2 itself, Gravis [pointed out][3] that

 there aren't any dependencies on any bootloader that aren't for
 configuration tools, so unlike systemd you can replace it at will

Discussion continued with iPXE by q9c9p saying:

 I would advocate what has already being state in dng, given the
 choice let the users decide what they want.

with which we at DWN fully agree. Discussion then turned to selecting
defaults, and to the necessity for providing documentation.

### [systemd development][4]

Martijn Dekkers reports a talk about upcoming systemd features. This
launched a very long and dense thread, with several branches. As it
can be easily imaginated, most of the comments were on the complaining
or joking side (or both), but there are interesting points.

One of them is t.j.duchene saying that [systemd is here to stay][5]
and that we need a long term solution, plus other comments. This was
refuted.

Anthony G. Basile pointed out that he maintains eudev and [requested
help][6].

Jude Nelson remembered that systemd's ability to hide devices [belongs
to vdev as well][7]. He also talked about collaboration with Anthony
G. Basile to have a [single libudev compatibility library][8].

Steve Litt provided a comprehensive list of reasons for which it is
[not advisable to try to change systemd from within][9].

tilt made the very [important point to remember][10] that:

 we are no sworn enemies of SystemD, of the
 project, its members or contributors or the motivations,
 ideas or even intentions it tries to implement.

### [Mathematical perspective][11]

wiliam moss provided a mathematical view of why systemd can not be
patched to make it better.


## New Releases

### [libsysdev v0.1.0][12]

Jack L. Frost announced that the first version of libsysdev and
xf86-input-evdev are now packaged for Arch Linux.

Source code: https://github.com/idunham/libsysdev

Arch Linux packages:
- https://git.fleshless.org/pkgbuilds/tree/libsysdev 
- https://git.fleshless.org/pkgbuilds/tree/xf86-input-evdev-libsysdev 


## Devuan's Not Gnome

DNG is the discussion list of the Devuan Project.

- [Subscribe to the list][subscribe]
- [Read online archives][archives]

---
We really want you to [help us make DWN][wiki]. Feel free to edit. DWN
is made by your peers.

You can also join and criticize us at IRC: #devuan-news at freenode

Thanks for reading so far.
Read you next week!

DWN Team
* Noel, er Envite (Editor)
* hellekin (Co-writer, markup master)


[1]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150129.181010.b640617f.en.html 
Versioning
[2]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150130.223928.216bd6f0.en.html 
Boot loader
[3]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150131.011810.35575b5f.en.html 
GRUB 2 forces no dependencies
[4]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150202.110251.183a1992.en.html 
systemd development
[5]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150202.225412.155056fb.en.html 
systemd is here to stay
[6]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150202.210653.1320fb4b.en.html 
help needed on eudev
[7]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150202.111241.8e8c211b.en.html 
vdev can hide devices as well
[8]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150202.212627.5308ff10.en.html 
libudev compatibility layer decoupled from vdev and eudev

Re: [Dng] Package Versions

[Noel Torres]

On Thursday, 29 de January de 2015 18:10:10 Hendrik Boom escribió:
 So the upgrade to devuan should perhaps introduce the pin?
 And how soes that pinning work?  Simply forbidding systemd and
 some of its relatives?  Or a way te detect devuan packages and
 if they are present to ignore Debian's corresponding ones despite
 any version numbers the Debian ones carry?

Pinning works by saying this repository has bigger priority than that one, no 
matter the version numbers on the packages.

Technically, each package version has a priority. This is hardcoded:

(Extract from man apt_preferences(5))
=
apt-get(8) selects the version with the highest priority for installation. 

priority 100
to the version that is already installed (if any).

priority 500
to the versions that are not installed and do not belong to the target 
release.

priority 990
to the versions that are not installed and belong to the target release.

APT then applies the following rules, listed in order of precedence, to 
determine which version of a package to install:

Never downgrade unless the priority of an available version exceeds 1000. 
(Downgrading is installing a less recent version of a package in place of a 
more recent version. Note that none of APT's default priorities exceeds 1000; 
such high priorities can only be set in the preferences file. Note also that 
downgrading a package can be risky.)
Install the highest priority version.
If two or more versions have the same priority, install the most recent one 
(that is, the one with the higher version number).
If two or more versions have the same priority and version number but either 
the packages differ in some of their metadata or the --reinstall option is 
given, install the uninstalled one.
=

Given that, if we pin our repository to 1001, it will always have bigger 
priority than Debian's, even if Debian version is higher than ours, and even 
if we are trying to downgrade from a higher Debian version to a lower Devuan 
one.

Regards

Noel
er Envite


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[Dng] Devuan Weekly News IX

[Noel Torres]

# [Devuan Weekly News][current] Issue IX

__Volume 02, Week 4, Devuan Week 9__

https://git.devuan.org/Envite/devuan-weekly-news/past-
issues/volume-02/issue-009

## Editorial

This week we have seen a very technical discussion, with so varied and
interesting themes like UEFI and GPT, TPM, PulseAudio, upgrade paths
and versioning. And, of course, the star development of libsysdev.
I'm sure we all are happy that things behave this way.

But as we have noticed before, the list seems separated from the main
development effort, which seems to be hidden in some secluded place.

I'm personally sure this is not on purpose, but from this humble
tribune of Devuan Weekly News, I ask the main developers of Devuan
Jessie (the name is official, now) to take care of being perceived
as more public than they seem now.

Finally, I wish to invite to a discussion about the name of _Devuan
Weekly News_. It has been suggested that it could be improved, and more
clearly distinguished from Debian's DWN.


## Comings and Goings

Daniel Pecka announced his presence to the list.  Please [welcome
Daniel][4]!


## Last Week in Devuan

### [The Countdown][1]

Some impatience is building up.  Eyes are turned towards Franco as the
announced deadline approaches.  Franco Lanza confirmed that the last
big chunk to break down before release is the build server for the ARM
platform.  Detractors and supporters are holding their breath for this
most anticipated alpha release.  KatolaZ reminds the Debian motto that
'releases should happen when it's time, not accordingly to a fixed
or prescribed schedule.'

### [Upgrade Paths][5]

Our editor Noel Torres is concerned about the upgrade path from
Debian stable and testing to the upcoming Devuan release, that he
nicknamed _Alhambra_ or _Aiken_.  Franco Lanza insists that
part of a smooth upgrade involves keeping the first release named
_Jessie_, and that later releases will have their own names.

Supported upgrade paths include:

- Debian Wheezy (`apt-get dist-upgrade`)
- Debian Jessie (script and fixing dependencies)
- Devuan installer

Gnome users should prepare for a little more work.

### [Audio Configuration][6]

The PulseAudio replacement thread turns into a useful audio
configuration information exchange for pulseaudio and Jack.  Joel Roth
provides extensive [setup information][7].

### [UEFI, GPT][8]

The start of the thread raised some doubts about if Debian (and
consequently Devuan) is able to properly boot from GPT partitioned
disks, which seems to imply using UEFI.

Just to be clear: yes Debian (and Devuan) can work with UEFI and GPT
partition table schemes.  It seems you just need to avoid hardware
with known issues.

Also an interesting reminder from T.J. Duchene:
 If you have Windows or Linux installed in UEFI mode, you MUST
 install the other in the same fashion if you expect Grub to
 dual-boot properly.

### [TPM][10]

The [old TPM thread][11] resurrects with a comment explaining why it
may be desirable to have it on hardware. Or at least desirable for
somebody.

### [Versioning][12]

tilt raises again the question of versioning the packages for Devuan,
discussed mid-December with no clear conclusion.


## systemd News

### [networkd][9]

Martijn Dekkers reports that systemd is now deeping into the network
system. This seems to be done through networkd. Comparison with The
One Ring and black-box transistor chips were unavoidable.


## New Releases

### [libsysdev v0.1.0][2]

Isaac Dunham announced the first version of libsysdev, a library that
aims to provide an easy-to-use API to get information about devices
from sysfs.  Meanwhile, a lengthy discussion has been going on under
[another thread][3] about coding style, vdev and udev compatibility, etc.

Source code: https://github.com/idunham/libsysdev


## Devuan's Not Gnome

DNG is the discussion list of the Devuan Project.

- [Subscribe to the list][subscribe]
- [Read online archives][archives]

---
We at DWN are humans and may both benefit from collaboration and make
mistakes. Feel free to join and criticize us at IRC: #devuan-news
at freenode

You can collaborate and [edit Devuan Weekly News too][wiki]!

Thanks for reading so far.
Read you next week!

DWN Team
* Noel, er Envite (Editor)
* hellekin (Co-writer, markup master)


[1]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/thread/20150124.212910.edaa5f2d.en.html 
The Countdown
[2]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150121.211136.e764d681.en.html 
Announcing libsysdev 0.1.0
[3]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150119.190115.cb63c930.en.html 
libsysdev preview
[4]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150121.131831.cca7d312.en.html 
Hello PPL, just entered a list ..
[5]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150121.230504.4967da9e.en.html 
Upgrade Paths
[6]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150123.101608.95bf3882.en.html 
sugestion apulse as pulse...
[7]: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20150125.014214.e0aad07a.en.html 
Joel's Jack setup
[8

[Dng] Upgrade paths

[Noel Torres]

Hi all

I've been thinking around the upgrade paths we need to provide for Devuan 1 
Jessie without systemd (I'd still like ancient site names or computing 
people names, so for me it is Devuan اَلْحَمْرَاء (put it on sources.list as 
Devuan 
Alhambra) or Devuan Aiken).

We must support users coming from Debian. That's why we are here. But which 
Debian?

I think we should provide upgrade paths both for Jessie and for Wheezy.

Moving from Jessie to Aiken is not really an upgrade, and should be pretty 
straightforward if the computer used the provided means at Debian to not have 
systemd, and a bit harder, but not too much, if it is a Jessie with systemd 
and the work is to free it.

Moving from Wheezy to Aiken is really an upgrade, but most of the work would 
have been done at Debian already, so it should not be so hard.

Any other paths we should think about?

Regards
er Envite


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[Dng] Devuan Weekly News VIII

[Noel Torres]

# [Devuan Weekly News][1] Issue VIII

__Volume 02, Week 3, Devuan Week 8__ https://git.devuan.org/Envite/devuan-
weekly-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-02/issue-008

## Editorial

Welcome to Devuan Weekly News issue VIII.  After two months has passed
from the start of the project (or better, from the start of the [DNG
mailing list][archives]), it seems that trolls have mostly disappeared
and the list concentrates on discussing technical issues and solutions
in a collaborative environment.

'Collaborative' is a very beautiful meaning, and we have used it for
[DWN][1] as well. This **Issue VIII** comes from the collaboration of
**hellekin**, to which [DWN][1] is in debt for setting up the
processes to make this happen. He has also helped me sleep better with
his reading and resuming effort.

Besides, it seems that the week can be resumed with
[a sentence from karl][tagline]:
 if desktop users wants their usb-disks to be automatically mounted,
 let them, but don't force me.

It seems to be the true spirit of Devuan: freedom to choose.

## Last Week on Devuan

### [Jessie Without Systemd][2]

The exploration of TRIOS continues. Dragan warns the LiveCD does not
allow removing the CD upon shutdown, leading to unexpected reboot on
the TRIOS system. Renaud OLGIATI advises to tell the BIOS to boot on
HDD and override the boot sequence to boot on the CD.

karl announces his intention to publish [udev-independent packages][3]
to address the fact that some packages depend on udev for wrong
reasons.

### [Use/Misuse of Depends][4]

cyteen wonders about the dependency policy in Devuan for using Depends
or Recommends when upstream is adding support for, but not reliance
on, some other package.  Recently the Debian policy changed to pull in
Recommends by default.  The consensus in this thread is that
Recommends should not be installed by default, and metapackages should
be used instead to satisfy all use cases. Noel remembers the exact
definitions of the current Debian policy.

That way both novices and experts would be satisfied: novices will use
metapackages and Tasks that pull in Recommends, and experts will be
able to choose for themselves.  Joel Roth suggests the
`--no-install-{recommends,suggests}` could have their counterparts,
e.g., `apt-get install pkgname --install-recommends`, to ramp up
dependencies.

### [Minimal Init][5]

Karl Hammar reports his experiments on choosing init on-the-fly,
inspired by [Manjaro experiments][6].  Isaac Dunham notes that such a
script would require running as PID 1 (and then exec(1P) to the
relevant executable).  Karl concludes it might be easier to use the
kernel's `init=` command line argument.

### [Itches and Scratches][7]

Gordon Haverland: The reason Devuan exists, is an itch named
systemd. Should we be looking for other itches? He wonders what if
someone scratch makes others itch, and how
itches and scratches pass from a distro to the next.  He discovered
that using `debootstrap` on Gentoo does not work as expected, and
points to dpkg.

Adam Borowski answers that dpkg is rock stable and its files are
almost uncorruptible due to all the care dpkg exercises on them.
Gordon then clarified dpkg did not corrupt the files, but that he
was trying to use debootstrap on Gentoo.

### [What to do with udev? Some ideas...][9]

Karl Hammar reactivates this thread with some experiments he made
[building X without udev support][10].

### [Purpose of all this complicated device management?][11]

Karl Hammar comes back on the alleged superiority of a dynamic device
manager and argues for freedom of choice: if desktop users wants
their usb-disks to be automatically mounted, let them, but don't force
me.

Gravis and Jude Nelson argue in favor of vdev: it won't touch static
devices, it may even create detected devices and exit.  Isaac Dunham
notes that `busybox mdev` does the latter. Karl and Isaac discuss
scanning and mapping devices to kernel modules.

The thread [evolved][13] into a discussion about libsysdev, a library
to substitute udev's libsysfs which is being created by Isaac Dunham.

### [Wiki Spam][8]

Go Linux warns the VUA that spam should be *prevented* instead of
erased on the without-systemd.org wiki.

### [UEFI and GPT][12]

Robert Storey wonders if Devuan will support UEFI boot and GPT
partition tables. It seems Debian does not boot properly with those
parameters, and Devuan should. Gravis notes that Devuan's first
release will be almost the same as Debian Jessie but without systemd,
and remembers hardware may be necessary for testing afterwards.

## Devuan's Not Gnome

DNG is the discussion list of the Devuan Project.

- [Subscribe to the list][subscribe]
- [Read online archives][archives]

---
No sleepless Monday night this week, thanks to the collaboration of 
**hellekin**.

You can collaborate too!
Devuan Weekly News is made by your peers: you're [welcome to contribute]
[wiki]!

Thanks for reading so far.
Read you next week!

DWN Team
* Noel, er Envite 

Re: [Dng] vdev update and design document

[Noel Torres]

On Friday, 2 de January de 2015 19:43:04 Jude Nelson escribió:
 Hi Luke,
 
 I should point out, the ACL criteria for matching processes do not all have
 to be specified, specifically for the reason you point out.  Using the
 SHA256 to match the process should be a tool of last resort, useful only
 when the executable's path, inode number, and PID listing commands are
 unreliable (for example, a program that runs from an arbitrary location but
 for which no PID listing program can be created).  Also, taking the SHA256
 would be very slow compared to the other criteria.  I'll update the design
 document to emphasize that vdev does not need all of the criteria to be
 set--just the ones that describe the class of processes the ACL affects.
 
 As much as I would like to revoke file descriptors, I'm afraid there's no
 way to do this that I know of without the kernel's help (but I'd love to
 learn of one).  Systemd-logind has the same problem--once a process opens a
 file descriptor, another process can't force it to close it (i.e. with
 systemd-logind, the client can simply dup(2) the file descriptor before
 systemd-logind closes it).  FreeBSD has revoke(2), but AFAIK there is no
 equivalent syscall for Linux.

Just a wild idea...

We could use /dev-real for the device nodes and /dev for named pipes pointing 
to the device nodes. The named pipes can be connected or disconnected at will, 
depending on the invoking process, while specialized programs (or root) could 
just lurk around /dev-real if something needs to be debugged. This works for 
reading and writing, but not for locking or ioctl, I know, but it is an 
idea...

Just two (euro) cents

er Envite


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Re: [Dng] Use/misuse of depends

[Noel Torres]

On Tuesday, 13 de January de 2015 20:25:25 hellekin escribió:
 On 01/13/2015 02:23 PM, Joel Roth wrote:
  Also, I recall that in a default Debian install, recommended
  packages are pulled in by default. A setting change makes it
  possible to only pull in the package dependencies.
 
 *** Are you suggesting that Devuan should use that setting and not pull
 in Recommends automatically?
 
 cat  /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/70befrugal EOD
 # Don't pull in Recommends by default
 APT::Install-Recommends 0;
 # Don't pull in Suggests by default
 APT::Install-Suggests 0;
 EOD

We all, and specially packagers, should remember what is what in Debian's 
dependency system, and what do we want for Devuan.

* Pre-Depends: a package must be installed and correctly configured before 
even starting the installation of the package which declares the pre-
dependency

* Depends: A Depends field takes effect only when a package is to be 
configured. This declares an absolute dependency. A package will not be 
configured unless all of the packages listed in its Depends field have been 
correctly configured

* Recommends: The Recommends field should list packages that would be found 
together with this one in all but unusual installations

* Suggests (and Enhances): This is used to declare that one package may be 
more useful with one or more others

As of this, we should all remember the exact point of Recommends is that the 
dependency is not absolute, but must be honoured almost always. This is why 
the setting is to always install recommends, and leave to the UA (or VUA) to 
decide not to install a specific Recommends package.

Regards

er Envite


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