Re: [DNG] Libre computers (as I see you don't like ME/PSP) they exist!

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 17:03:54 -0500
"taii...@gmx.com"  wrote:

> On 11/14/2017 04:19 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> 
> > To me, these prices look more like a 'polite' extortion for the
> > 'obsessed' and gullible.  
> I can't understand as to why everyone always compares the pricing to 
> that of a daily browsing computer and not intel/amd's high end server 
> offerings where the CPU's alone cost thousands of dollars - it is the 
> average price for server hardware in that performance class.

Because the average person needs a COTS (Commodity Off The Shelf)
computer,  not a .99 uptime server.

> 
> I remember a time when x86 computers regularly went for $2,000+ for 
> something that wasn't even high end, eventually the prices came down.

That was 1986, and IIRC prices kept going up till maybe 1993. But in
those days, only people with a professional, economic justification
bought such computers. And in those days, they made computers more
robust, because computers had to be kept in service for over 5 years.
And very, VERY few individuals had multiple computers that were still
viable.

The sub-$1000 computer spawned entirely new uses for computers, that
would stop being viable if computers went up to $4600.00.

In 1990 I bought a Gateway 486-25 with 2MB RAM for
$4190.00. I was contract-programmer with several customers, and needed
a computer to efficiently run all the software I developed, all the
programming and documentation programs needed for my work, and
sufficient resources to open my 150 page book in less than a half hour.
My situation was far from typical: The typical person back then had no
computer.

> 
> More info about less expensive options:
> https://www.coreboot.org/Board:asus/kgpe-d16
> https://www.coreboot.org/Board:asus/kcma-d8 (board is $250, cpu
> $20-$100)
> https://www.raptorengineering.com/coreboot/kgpe-d16-bmc-port-status.php
> (libre remote management firmware for these two)

Nice!
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] Libre computers (as I see you don't like ME/PSP) they exist!

[taii...@gmx.com]

On 11/14/2017 04:19 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:


To me, these prices look more like a 'polite' extortion for the
'obsessed' and gullible.
I can't understand as to why everyone always compares the pricing to 
that of a daily browsing computer and not intel/amd's high end server 
offerings where the CPU's alone cost thousands of dollars - it is the 
average price for server hardware in that performance class.


I remember a time when x86 computers regularly went for $2,000+ for 
something that wasn't even high end, eventually the prices came down.


More info about less expensive options:
https://www.coreboot.org/Board:asus/kgpe-d16
https://www.coreboot.org/Board:asus/kcma-d8 (board is $250, cpu $20-$100)
https://www.raptorengineering.com/coreboot/kgpe-d16-bmc-port-status.php 
(libre remote management firmware for these two)

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[DNG] Libre computers (as I see you don't like ME/PSP) they exist!

[Edward Bartolo]

Quote from Steve Litt:
<<
We all have our priorities,  and for each of us, money's one of them.

I'm not willing to pay $4800.00 for a computer that eliminates every
last attack vector.
>>

I think, this neatly summarises the sentiments of many users of
GNU/Linux. These prices are too hefty for many to even consider. I
remember, a few years ago, I was suggested to buy from system76 which
claim their machines are 100% Linux friendly but their prices were
around double the normal prices.

I still have doubts how such CPUs/motherboards are clean of
proprietary executable code when the latter is buried deep inside a
CPU's die. How are the majority of buyers going to verify their
purchased CPUs are clean and what they are getting is what they are
paying for?

To me, these prices look more like a 'polite' extortion for the
'obsessed' and gullible.
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Re: [DNG] Libre computers (as I see you don't like ME/PSP) they exist!

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 05:25:31 -0500
"taii...@gmx.com"  wrote:


> Of course - which is why I mentioned the x86-64 D8 and D16 - which
> while slower than POWER 9 are still quite fast with a $40 16 core
> CPU. You could build a complete setup for around $500 - at least I
> did.

Noww you're speaking my language. Do you have a URL to read about
KGPE-D16/KCMA-D8?

Thanks,

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] Libre computers (as I see you don't like ME/PSP) they exist!

[taii...@gmx.com]

On 11/12/2017 09:06 PM, Steve Litt wrote:


On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 22:03:32 -0500
"taii...@gmx.com"  wrote:


In case you don't notice my reply (but please keep replies on the ML
so everyone sees :D)

OK, here it is...


On 11/09/2017 12:32 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

[snip]


After Rick's posted Minix on Intel article, I'm going to stick with
AMD even if it's more expensive, slower and hotter (and I'm not
saying any of those things are true).

[snip]



Intel ME / AMD PSP
Post 2013 AMD stuff is just as bad as Intel's, if a KGPE-D16/KCMA-D8
(libre firmware available, RYF) socket G34/C32 isn't good enough you
can get a (brand new, very fast and very cool) TALOS 2 (POWER 9)
which has both libre firmware and hardware and will be RYF certified.
I play the latest games in a VM (vfio gfx card via iommu-gfx) with my
D16, in comparison a 4386/6328 CPU is equal to a FX-8310)

POWER is the only libre performance CPU arch available now
http://raptorcs.com (TALOS 2 is made by the same company that made
the quality D8/D16 libre coreboot ports that I use)
It is a good deal for the performance you get (that is a low price
for high end server hardware, you would pay more with x86)

The computers on your link cost $4500.00 and up. Bare bones mobos with
processor and a little RAM cost $2300.00. I'm just not that much of a
true-believer.

Houses in my neighborhood cost very roughly $350,000.00. I like my
privacy, but that doesn't mean I'd spend $1,000,000.00 on an equivalent
house with a built-in faraday cage, small windows with retractible steel
shutters, a drone-jammer for my property, and a whole house
wall-vibrator to prevent spooks from using the old "listen with a laser
reflection" trick.

Haha those laser mics get you every time.

I value my safety, but I don't have an underground bunker with 40 guns,
10,000 rounds of ammo, 200 magazines, 500 pounds of tuna and sardines,
10,000 daily vitamin pills, 5,000 gallons of distilled water, and 30
one ounce gold coins. Some people value their safety that much: I'm not
one of them.

We all have our priorities,  and for each of us, money's one of them.

I'm not willing to pay $4800.00 for a computer that eliminates every
last attack vector. I'm not even willing to spend the time to eliminate
every last attack vector from my software, so I'm for sure not going to
spend $4800 for a computer.
Of course - which is why I mentioned the x86-64 D8 and D16 - which while 
slower than POWER 9 are still quite fast with a $40 16 core CPU. You 
could build a complete setup for around $500 - at least I did.

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Re: [DNG] Libre computers (as I see you don't like ME/PSP) they exist!

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 22:03:32 -0500
"taii...@gmx.com"  wrote:

> In case you don't notice my reply (but please keep replies on the ML
> so everyone sees :D)

OK, here it is...

> 
> On 11/09/2017 12:32 PM, Steve Litt wrote:

[snip]

> > After Rick's posted Minix on Intel article, I'm going to stick with
> > AMD even if it's more expensive, slower and hotter (and I'm not
> > saying any of those things are true).  

[snip]


> Intel ME / AMD PSP
> Post 2013 AMD stuff is just as bad as Intel's, if a KGPE-D16/KCMA-D8 
> (libre firmware available, RYF) socket G34/C32 isn't good enough you
> can get a (brand new, very fast and very cool) TALOS 2 (POWER 9)
> which has both libre firmware and hardware and will be RYF certified.
> I play the latest games in a VM (vfio gfx card via iommu-gfx) with my 
> D16, in comparison a 4386/6328 CPU is equal to a FX-8310)
> 
> POWER is the only libre performance CPU arch available now
> http://raptorcs.com (TALOS 2 is made by the same company that made
> the quality D8/D16 libre coreboot ports that I use)
> It is a good deal for the performance you get (that is a low price
> for high end server hardware, you would pay more with x86)

The computers on your link cost $4500.00 and up. Bare bones mobos with
processor and a little RAM cost $2300.00. I'm just not that much of a
true-believer. 

Houses in my neighborhood cost very roughly $350,000.00. I like my
privacy, but that doesn't mean I'd spend $1,000,000.00 on an equivalent
house with a built-in faraday cage, small windows with retractible steel
shutters, a drone-jammer for my property, and a whole house
wall-vibrator to prevent spooks from using the old "listen with a laser
reflection" trick.

I value my safety, but I don't have an underground bunker with 40 guns,
10,000 rounds of ammo, 200 magazines, 500 pounds of tuna and sardines,
10,000 daily vitamin pills, 5,000 gallons of distilled water, and 30
one ounce gold coins. Some people value their safety that much: I'm not
one of them.

We all have our priorities,  and for each of us, money's one of them.

I'm not willing to pay $4800.00 for a computer that eliminates every
last attack vector. I'm not even willing to spend the time to eliminate
every last attack vector from my software, so I'm for sure not going to
spend $4800 for a computer.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
November 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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