Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
On 2017-09-27 12:05, John Franklin wrote: Nor is botbot an obvious Devuan resource. It is not mentioned anywhere on www.devuan.org, [1] so why would there be a reasonable expectation to even *think* to look there? jf The botbot archives are indeed linked from the devuan.org index page in the section copied below. "Publicly archived" is a link to the botbot logs. I agree that it is rather subtle and easily overlooked. Communication Channels Participate in our web forum : dev1galaxy.org Follow us on Twitter: @DevuanOrg Subscribe to our mailing lists: Announce to receive official announcements DNG to discuss Devuan specific issues ->Join the #devuan IRC channel (publicly archived)<--- File a bug report: https://bugs.devuan.org Send a private email to free...@devuan.org But I see that link is missing from the Community page. I will fix that presently. It is also in the topic for the #devuan channel: Topic for #devuan is: Recent (2017-05-25): Jessie 1.0.0 stable release http://ur1.ca/qxaa5 || This is the Devuan https://devuan.org/ discussion channel (logged at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan - with useful 'search') . . . golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
> On Sep 21, 2017, at 12:44 AM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > On 2017-09-20 22:36, John Franklin wrote: >>> On Sep 20, 2017, at 10:59 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: >>> From a search for 'network-manager' in the botbot logs. >>> https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/search/?q=network-manager >>> Was that so hard? >> Yes, it is. And condescending. >> Why would someone look at the IRC logs of a site that they've never >> heard of to find out about something in the Jessie and Ascii >> repositories? >> jf > > Because botbot logs the #devuan irc channel where a LOT of questions are > answered and or solved. IMO every Devuan user should have it bookmarked. It > is mentioned frequently on all Devuan communication channels - those > references are pretty hard to miss - and it should be one of the first > resources to tap. Think of it as a variation on "give a man a fish/teach a > man to fish" . . . Of course, checking the repository as you did is the most > logical place to look for a package. I have seen projects suggest IRC channels as a place to ask a question, because the people who hang out there tend to be knowledgable. I have *never* seen a project suggest searching IRC logs for answers, because IRC tends to ramble and finding a coherent answer is difficult at best. Nor is botbot an obvious Devuan resource. It is not mentioned anywhere on www.devuan.org, [1] so why would there be a reasonable expectation to even *think* to look there? jf [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=botbot+site%3Adevuan.org&oq=botbot+site%3Adevuan.org -- John Franklin frank...@tux.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
goli...@dyne.org writes: > On 2017-09-20 22:36, John Franklin wrote: >>> On Sep 20, 2017, at 10:59 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: >>> >>> From a search for 'network-manager' in the botbot logs. >>> https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/search/?q=network-manager >>> Was that so hard? >> >> Yes, it is. And condescending. >> >> Why would someone look at the IRC logs of a site that they've never >> heard of to find out about something in the Jessie and Ascii >> repositories? >> >> jf > > Because botbot logs the #devuan irc channel where a LOT of questions are > answered and or solved. IMO every Devuan user should have it > bookmarked. It is mentioned frequently on all Devuan communication > channels - those references are pretty hard to miss - and it should be > one of the first resources to tap. Think of it as a variation on "give > a man a fish/teach a man to fish" . . . Of course, checking the > repository as you did is the most logical place to look for a package. In the "teach a man to fish" department, set up your apt sources.list to track the Devuan releases you are willing to install from, e.g. jessie and ascii, and then something like sudo apt-get update for release in jessie ascii; do apt-get depends network-manager/$release | grep systemd done Much more authorative and up-to-date than IRC logs. Hope this helps, -- Olaf Meeuwissen, LPIC-2FSF Associate Member since 2004-01-27 GnuPG key: F84A2DD9/B3C0 2F47 EA19 64F4 9F13 F43E B8A4 A88A F84A 2DD9 Support Free Softwarehttps://my.fsf.org/donate Join the Free Software Foundation https://my.fsf.org/join ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
Quoting goli...@dyne.org (goli...@dyne.org): > Because botbot logs the #devuan irc channel where a LOT of questions > are answered and or solved. IMO every Devuan user should have it > bookmarked. It is mentioned frequently on all Devuan communication > channels - those references are pretty hard to miss - and it should > be one of the first resources to tap. Nice! Duly bookmarked https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/ . Thank you. -- Cheers, "Teach a man to make fire, and he will be warm Rick Moen for a day. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm r...@linuxmafia.com for the rest of his life." -- John A. Hrastar McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
On 2017-09-20 22:36, John Franklin wrote: On Sep 20, 2017, at 10:59 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: From a search for 'network-manager' in the botbot logs. https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/search/?q=network-manager Was that so hard? Yes, it is. And condescending. Why would someone look at the IRC logs of a site that they've never heard of to find out about something in the Jessie and Ascii repositories? jf Because botbot logs the #devuan irc channel where a LOT of questions are answered and or solved. IMO every Devuan user should have it bookmarked. It is mentioned frequently on all Devuan communication channels - those references are pretty hard to miss - and it should be one of the first resources to tap. Think of it as a variation on "give a man a fish/teach a man to fish" . . . Of course, checking the repository as you did is the most logical place to look for a package. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
> On Sep 20, 2017, at 10:59 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > From a search for 'network-manager' in the botbot logs. > https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/search/?q=network-manager > Was that so hard? Yes, it is. And condescending. Why would someone look at the IRC logs of a site that they've never heard of to find out about something in the Jessie and Ascii repositories? jf -- John Franklin frank...@tux.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
On 2017-09-20 21:47, John Franklin wrote: On Sep 20, 2017, at 4:25 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: On 2017-09-20 15:09, zap wrote: The phase “depends on systemd” is being used in two extreme contexts here. The first is a technical context, where “apt-get install ” fails because of a dependency, and may be trivially fixed with different build options. The second is “fundamentally and irreparably depends on systemd.” For example, Network Manager can be built by removing two systemd dependencies from the debian/control file. It clearly falls in the first category. [Citation required.] What else “depends on systemd”? jf I would actually like network manager to have its garbage systemd dependencies removed. ___ It's already been done Not in Ascii. http://bugs.devuan.org/db/13/133.html Just verified this is still the case. jf Maybe the jessie version will work in ASCII? I have sometimes used pkgs from the prior release. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
On 2017-09-20 20:51, zap wrote: I would actually like network manager to have its garbage systemd dependencies removed. ___ It's already been done golinux In which version of devuan? all of them or just jessie? just curious. From a search for 'network-manager' in the botbot logs. https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/search/?q=network-manager Was that so hard? you can install network-manager without systemd 0.9.10.0-7+devuan1 in jessie main Have no idea about the other releases. You can refine the search on botbot or dng or maybe even d1g. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
> On Sep 20, 2017, at 4:25 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > On 2017-09-20 15:09, zap wrote: >>> The phase “depends on systemd” is being used in two extreme contexts here. >>> The first is a technical context, where “apt-get install ” fails >>> because of a dependency, and may be trivially fixed with different build >>> options. The second is “fundamentally and irreparably depends on systemd.” >>> For example, Network Manager can be built by removing two systemd >>> dependencies from the debian/control file. It clearly falls in the first >>> category. >>> [Citation required.] What else “depends on systemd”? >>> jf >> I would actually like network manager to have its garbage systemd >> dependencies removed. >> ___ > > It's already been done > Not in Ascii. http://bugs.devuan.org/db/13/133.html Just verified this is still the case. jf -- John Franklin frank...@tux.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
I would actually like network manager to have its garbage systemd >> dependencies removed. >> ___ >> > > It's already been done > > golinux > In which version of devuan? all of them or just jessie? just curious. > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
On 2017-09-20 15:09, zap wrote: The phase “depends on systemd” is being used in two extreme contexts here. The first is a technical context, where “apt-get install ” fails because of a dependency, and may be trivially fixed with different build options. The second is “fundamentally and irreparably depends on systemd.” For example, Network Manager can be built by removing two systemd dependencies from the debian/control file. It clearly falls in the first category. [Citation required.] What else “depends on systemd”? jf I would actually like network manager to have its garbage systemd dependencies removed. ___ It's already been done golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
> The phase “depends on systemd” is being used in two extreme contexts here. > The first is a technical context, where “apt-get install ” fails > because of a dependency, and may be trivially fixed with different build > options. The second is “fundamentally and irreparably depends on systemd.” > > For example, Network Manager can be built by removing two systemd > dependencies from the debian/control file. It clearly falls in the first > category. > > [Citation required.] What else “depends on systemd”? > > jf I would actually like network manager to have its garbage systemd dependencies removed. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
> On Sep 20, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Alessandro Selli > wrote: > > On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 at 11:19:51 -0400 > John Franklin wrote: > > >> Your premise that “Gnome depends on systemd” is false. The current >> *packages* may depend on systemd, but I’ll bet they can be patched and >> rebuilt without systemd. >> >> Give it a try. Please build the gnome packages from scratch and report back >> with where compilation fails. Better yet, file bugs with patches to create >> a set of Gnome packages that don’t depend on systemd. > > If having Gnome work without systemd entails patching it's sources and > recompiling the whole bunch of packages, then you just proved Gnome does > indeed depend on systemd, not just on the package level, but on the code > level. The phase “depends on systemd” is being used in two extreme contexts here. The first is a technical context, where “apt-get install ” fails because of a dependency, and may be trivially fixed with different build options. The second is “fundamentally and irreparably depends on systemd.” For example, Network Manager can be built by removing two systemd dependencies from the debian/control file. It clearly falls in the first category. [Citation required.] What else “depends on systemd”? jf -- John Franklin frank...@tux.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
> On Sep 20, 2017, at 11:33 AM, J. Fahrner wrote: > > Am 2017-09-20 17:19, schrieb John Franklin: > >> Your premise that “Gnome depends on systemd” is false. The current >> *packages* may depend on systemd, but I’ll bet they can be patched and >> rebuilt without systemd. >> Give it a try. Please build the gnome packages from scratch and report >> back with where compilation fails. Better yet, file bugs with patches >> to create a set of Gnome packages that don’t depend on systemd. > > Who should do that? Why not YOU? Why are you demanding this on someone else? > This is free software. Everyone can do this. Getting Gnome working on Devuan is not one of my needs, but it is his. I’m encouraging him to collect some hard data so a solution can be crafted, instead of carrying on a pointless argument based on a false premise. jf -- John Franklin frank...@tux.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
On Wed, 20 Sep 2017 at 11:19:51 -0400 John Franklin wrote: > Your premise that “Gnome depends on systemd” is false. The current > *packages* may depend on systemd, but I’ll bet they can be patched and > rebuilt without systemd. > > Give it a try. Please build the gnome packages from scratch and report back > with where compilation fails. Better yet, file bugs with patches to create > a set of Gnome packages that don’t depend on systemd. If having Gnome work without systemd entails patching it's sources and recompiling the whole bunch of packages, then you just proved Gnome does indeed depend on systemd, not just on the package level, but on the code level. -- Alessandro Selli http://alessandro.route-add.net VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiavi PGP/GPG keys: B7FD89FD, 4A904FD9 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
Am 2017-09-20 17:19, schrieb John Franklin: Your premise that “Gnome depends on systemd” is false. The current *packages* may depend on systemd, but I’ll bet they can be patched and rebuilt without systemd. Give it a try. Please build the gnome packages from scratch and report back with where compilation fails. Better yet, file bugs with patches to create a set of Gnome packages that don’t depend on systemd. Who should do that? Why not YOU? Why are you demanding this on someone else? This is free software. Everyone can do this. Jochen ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
> On Sep 20, 2017, at 4:16 AM, Erik Christiansen > wrote: > > On 20.09.17 09:55, Svante Signell wrote: >> On Wed, 2017-09-20 at 17:41 +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote: >>> On 19.09.17 15:56, J. Fahrner wrote: I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they try to >> And that's not possible for Gnome, because Gnome depends on systemd. If you want Gnome you have to live with systemd. It's your choice. >>> >>> If that is true, then there is no Gnome in Devuan, and never can be? >> >> Of course Gnome can be made available in Devuan too, see e.g. >> >> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170918.102751.1992aff3.en.html >> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170919.141940.3158b7ae.en.html > > Neither those posts, nor yours, provide any relevant information. The > question still stands: > > If "Gnome depends on systemd ... you want Gnome you have to live with > systemd." is true, then there is no Gnome in Devuan, and never can be? > > Perhaps you'd like to address the validity of the dichotomy? Your premise that “Gnome depends on systemd” is false. The current *packages* may depend on systemd, but I’ll bet they can be patched and rebuilt without systemd. Give it a try. Please build the gnome packages from scratch and report back with where compilation fails. Better yet, file bugs with patches to create a set of Gnome packages that don’t depend on systemd. jf -- John Franklin frank...@tux.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
On 20.09.17 09:55, Svante Signell wrote: > On Wed, 2017-09-20 at 17:41 +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote: > > On 19.09.17 15:56, J. Fahrner wrote: > > > I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they try to > > > > And that's not possible for Gnome, because Gnome depends on systemd. > > > If you want Gnome you have to live with systemd. It's your choice. > > > > If that is true, then there is no Gnome in Devuan, and never can be? > > Of course Gnome can be made available in Devuan too, see e.g. > > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170918.102751.1992aff3.en.html > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170919.141940.3158b7ae.en.html Neither those posts, nor yours, provide any relevant information. The question still stands: If "Gnome depends on systemd ... you want Gnome you have to live with systemd." is true, then there is no Gnome in Devuan, and never can be? Perhaps you'd like to address the validity of the dichotomy? Erik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
On Wed, 2017-09-20 at 17:41 +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote: > On 19.09.17 15:56, J. Fahrner wrote: > > I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they try to > > And that's not possible for Gnome, because Gnome depends on systemd. > > If you want Gnome you have to live with systemd. It's your choice. > > If that is true, then there is no Gnome in Devuan, and never can be? Of course Gnome can be made available in Devuan too, see e.g. https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170918.102751.1992aff3.en.html https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170919.141940.3158b7ae.en.html The issue in Devuan is systemd, not specifically Gnome. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Systemd-free => Gnome-free? [Was: Re: Gnome?
On 19.09.17 15:56, J. Fahrner wrote: > I'm wondering why people cry when they don't get Gnome and why they try to > enforce Devuan developers to offer Gnome. Devuans goal is to offer a Linux > system without systemd. Errr, Devuan's reason for _existing_ is to eschew systemd. Absolutely nothing can be allowed to stand in the way of delivering that. > And that's not possible for Gnome, because Gnome depends on systemd. > If you want Gnome you have to live with systemd. It's your choice. If that is true, then there is no Gnome in Devuan, and never can be? > If you want a Windows GUI you have to use Windows. But don't cry. While using LXDE in preference, I can't really tell any difference when using Gnome. Ditching the latter will not be noticed at the user level. I've downloaded devuan_jessie_1.0.0_i386_CD.iso, but not installed it yet. That is Gnome-free, and thus systemd-free? Erik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
