Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Dave Turner]

On 28/08/17 01:03, Steve Litt wrote:

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 06:51:24 +0100
Dave Turner  wrote:


I have a working devuan ascii with no systemd no dbus no udev and no
pulseaudio on my old iMac. (no X11 either, but we'll come to that)

Very nice!


I installed eudev

Did you install eudev simply by apt-get install udev? Were there any
other steps?


and then I deleted /etc/init.d/udev and rebooted.

This means that udev won't run on boot. Did /etc/init.d/eudev exist, or
did you just not have a daemon?

[snip]


For sound I installed flac, alsa-utils, and the ncurses media player
moc. alsa-utils includes alsa-mixer and that let me un-mute the
sound. And it works! I think the docs on alsa and sound on linux have
become divorced from reality over  the years, I know how to read and
follow instructions, I should have been able to do this years ago. I
had to do it by trial and error!

Dave, a cool move on your part would be to document exactly how you did
the setup described in the preceding paragraph. Until Devuan gets their
documentation act together, I'd suggest publishing your documentation
on a website controlled by you, so that it's permanent. A whole heck of
a lot of people want to have a simple, no-nonsense sound setup like you
describe. I'm one of them.

SteveT
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I have written up most of what I have done. I was thinking that 
dev1galaxy.org was the best place to put it.


The web-browser on my iMac is dillo which is fast and light and nice to 
use for many things - and utterly useless for other things so Palemoon 
will be the next install, followed by VLC so I can watch DVDs again. I 
fully expect my system will get polluted by systemd and probably 
pulseaudio too, we'll see!


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 06:51:24 +0100
Dave Turner  wrote:

> I have a working devuan ascii with no systemd no dbus no udev and no 
> pulseaudio on my old iMac. (no X11 either, but we'll come to that)

Very nice!

> 
> I installed eudev 

Did you install eudev simply by apt-get install udev? Were there any
other steps?

> and then I deleted /etc/init.d/udev and rebooted.

This means that udev won't run on boot. Did /etc/init.d/eudev exist, or
did you just not have a daemon?

[snip]

> 
> For sound I installed flac, alsa-utils, and the ncurses media player 
> moc. alsa-utils includes alsa-mixer and that let me un-mute the
> sound. And it works! I think the docs on alsa and sound on linux have
> become divorced from reality over  the years, I know how to read and
> follow instructions, I should have been able to do this years ago. I
> had to do it by trial and error!

Dave, a cool move on your part would be to document exactly how you did
the setup described in the preceding paragraph. Until Devuan gets their
documentation act together, I'd suggest publishing your documentation
on a website controlled by you, so that it's permanent. A whole heck of
a lot of people want to have a simple, no-nonsense sound setup like you
describe. I'm one of them.

SteveT
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Alessandro Selli]

On Sat, 26 Aug 2017 at 12:41:49 -0400
Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 10:36:16AM +0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>> So, this is again an advice that should be obvious for anyone, bold
>> enough to delete parts of the file system, that can result in system
>> breakage.
>> 
>> There is a betwitched command, tar, that can be used to create
>> archives of any directory. So, the obvious action to me is, make a
>> tar.gz archive before deleting any system directory. That way, you
>> will be empowered with recovery in the ill fated event of breakage. In
>> the event of boot failure you can use the backup (.tar.gz) file to
>> repair the damage restoring bootability.  
>
> Assuming, of course, that you have some other way of booting the 
> machine so you can still run commands to restore the files.

  It depends by the severity of the malfunction.  You could have damaged the
system not badly enought to prevent you from getting a login terminal.

  An emergency boot partition or device is always a good thing to have,
anyway.


Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Harald Arnesen]

Den 26/08/2017 18:41, skrev Hendrik Boom:

> On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 10:36:16AM +0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>> There is a betwitched command, tar, that can be used to create
>> archives of any directory. So, the obvious action to me is, make a
>> tar.gz archive before deleting any system directory. That way, you
>> will be empowered with recovery in the ill fated event of breakage. In
>> the event of boot failure you can use the backup (.tar.gz) file to
>> repair the damage restoring bootability.
> 
> Assuming, of course, that you have some other way of booting the 
> machine so you can still run commands to restore the files.

You always have a live dvd/usbstick to boot from.
-- 
Hilsen Harald
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 10:36:16AM +0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> So, this is again an advice that should be obvious for anyone, bold
> enough to delete parts of the file system, that can result in system
> breakage.
> 
> There is a betwitched command, tar, that can be used to create
> archives of any directory. So, the obvious action to me is, make a
> tar.gz archive before deleting any system directory. That way, you
> will be empowered with recovery in the ill fated event of breakage. In
> the event of boot failure you can use the backup (.tar.gz) file to
> repair the damage restoring bootability.

Assuming, of course, that you have some other way of booting the 
machine so you can still run commands to restore the files.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Harald Arnesen]

Edward Bartolo [2017-08-26 10:36]:

> So, this is again an advice that should be obvious for anyone, bold
> enough to delete parts of the file system, that can result in system
> breakage.
> 
> There is a betwitched command, tar, that can be used to create
> archives of any directory. So, the obvious action to me is, make a
> tar.gz archive before deleting any system directory. That way, you
> will be empowered with recovery in the ill fated event of breakage. In
> the event of boot failure you can use the backup (.tar.gz) file to
> repair the damage restoring bootability.

Or simply rename the directories instead of deleting them. If everything
works after a boot, delete the directories then.
-- 
Hilsen Harald
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Dave Turner]

On 26/08/17 09:05, Ralph Ronnquist wrote:



Svante Signell wrote on 26/08/17 16:57:

On Sat, 2017-08-26 at 06:51 +0100, Dave Turner wrote:


I have a working devuan ascii with no systemd no dbus no udev and no
pulseaudio on my old iMac. (no X11 either, but we'll come to that)
I installed eudev and then I deleted /etc/init.d/udev and rebooted.

...

udev is gone and is replaced by eudev. I left the udev files in place
in /etc /lib because no eudev files had appeared so I think eudev
makes use of the udev files. I felt disinclined to break the system
again by deleting them! But if anyone can confirm or deny that would
be nice.


Hi David,

You can check the contents of eudev yourself:
dpkg -L eudev
gives you the list of installed files.


It's also worth to note that many files in /lib/udev/rules.d belong to 
various other packages; they add their own configuration to udev in 
support of hotplugging their things. I think you do best in leaving 
them intact for eudev to use. Files in /etc/udev/rules.d are 
notionally your sysadmin's poetry, with site local configuration, and 
likewise, should probably be kept as well.


Ralph.
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OK, dpkg -L eudev gives a long list of files mainly in /lib/udev/, I'll 
be leaving those alone then...


Once bitten twice shy, after the 1st breakage I copied everything from 
/etc and /lib and /usr that I thought I might need into ~/SAFE/ . 
Happily I didn't need it.


Thanks for the help, in the next week or so I will be installing X11 and 
polluting the iMac with libsystemd0.


DaveT

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[DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Edward Bartolo]

So, this is again an advice that should be obvious for anyone, bold
enough to delete parts of the file system, that can result in system
breakage.

There is a betwitched command, tar, that can be used to create
archives of any directory. So, the obvious action to me is, make a
tar.gz archive before deleting any system directory. That way, you
will be empowered with recovery in the ill fated event of breakage. In
the event of boot failure you can use the backup (.tar.gz) file to
repair the damage restoring bootability.
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Ralph Ronnquist]

Svante Signell wrote on 26/08/17 16:57:

On Sat, 2017-08-26 at 06:51 +0100, Dave Turner wrote:


I have a working devuan ascii with no systemd no dbus no udev and no
pulseaudio on my old iMac. (no X11 either, but we'll come to that)
I installed eudev and then I deleted /etc/init.d/udev and rebooted.

...

udev is gone and is replaced by eudev. I left the udev files in place
in /etc /lib because no eudev files had appeared so I think eudev
makes use of the udev files. I felt disinclined to break the system
again by deleting them! But if anyone can confirm or deny that would
be nice.


Hi David,

You can check the contents of eudev yourself:
dpkg -L eudev
gives you the list of installed files.


It's also worth to note that many files in /lib/udev/rules.d belong to 
various other packages; they add their own configuration to udev in 
support of hotplugging their things. I think you do best in leaving them 
intact for eudev to use. Files in /etc/udev/rules.d are notionally your 
sysadmin's poetry, with site local configuration, and likewise, should 
probably be kept as well.


Ralph.
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Svante Signell]

On Sat, 2017-08-26 at 06:51 +0100, Dave Turner wrote:
> 
> I have a working devuan ascii with no systemd no dbus no udev and no
> pulseaudio on my old iMac. (no X11 either, but we'll come to that)
> I installed eudev and then I deleted /etc/init.d/udev and rebooted.
...
> udev is gone and is replaced by eudev. I left the udev files in place
> in /etc /lib because no eudev files had appeared so I think eudev
> makes use of the udev files. I felt disinclined to break the system
> again by deleting them! But if anyone can confirm or deny that would
> be nice.

Hi David,

You can check the contents of eudev yourself:
dpkg -L eudev
gives you the list of installed files.
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Joel Roth]

Dave Turner wrote:
> I have a working devuan ascii with no systemd no dbus no udev and no
> pulseaudio on my old iMac. (no X11 either, but we'll come to that)
> I installed eudev and then I deleted /etc/init.d/udev and rebooted.

That's great. 

> I can cope with twm and I really like ctwm so I was shocked when I realised
> that the version of ctwm in debian is 10 years old! Version 4.0.1 was
> released by the ctwm people in June this year. I had to download the code
> and compile it. I used 'checkinstall' to create the package and it works
> too! Obviously that was a few weeks and a couple of rebuilds ago.

Checkinstall is an amazing tool. 

 
> DaveT

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-- 
Joel Roth
  

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there? UPDATE

[Dave Turner]

On 19/08/17 16:46, Dave Turner wrote:

On 18/08/17 18:45, Steve Litt wrote:

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:36:12 +0100
Dave Turner  wrote:


On 18/08/17 00:22, Joel Roth wrote:

deleted /lib/udev and all the sub-directories

With eudev I have a working keyboard so today I went in and removed
/etc/systemd/* . Re-booted and I still have a working keyboard but no
network connection!

Hi Dave,

I think you have /etc/init.d/networking or something like that. This
shellscript assumes a certain name for your network interface. Your
move to eudev might have changed that name.

Perform the following command to learn interface names:

ip link

Strongarm your network name(s) into /etc/init.d/networking as needed.

If you really, really can't get /etc/init.d/networking to do the job,
here's a shellscript to bring up a wired interface to a defined IP:

#!/bin/bash
ip link set dev enp3s0 down
ip addr add 192.168.100.2/24 dev enp3s0
ip addr add 192.168.100.102/24 dev enp3s0
ip link set dev enp3s0 up
ip route add default via 192.168.100.96

Assuming your interface is named enp3s0 (and rename it if not), the
preceding script will work on any distro.

Somewhere in the past I posted, on this list, a shellscript to deduce
the name of the wired interface, and jam it into an environment
variable so it could be passed to scripts like the preceding.

If you want to boot up wifi, you need your boot to early run, *with
respawn*, wpa_supplicant, as aa daemon. This means for sysvinit put it
in /etc/inittab, not in /etc/init.d/S0whateverwpa_supplicant.

If, like me, you're willing to be disloyal to your distro, you can
start up your network trivially.


SteveT

Steve Litt
July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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I'll have a go at your and Svante's suggestions probably on Sunday 
evening. Saturday and Sunday I will be putting my Harley back together 
and going for a ride.


DaveT

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I have a working devuan ascii with no systemd no dbus no udev and no 
pulseaudio on my old iMac. (no X11 either, but we'll come to that)


I installed eudev and then I deleted /etc/init.d/udev and rebooted.

Deleted /etc/systemd/         and rebooted, everything still works.

Deleted /lib/systemd/         and rebooted, everything still works.
Deleted /var/lib/systemd/     and rebooted, everything still works.
Deleted /usr/lib/systemd/     and rebooted, everything still works.

udev is gone and is replaced by eudev. I left the udev files in place in 
/etc /lib because no eudev files had appeared so I think eudev makes use 
of the udev files. I felt disinclined to break the system again by 
deleting them! But if anyone can confirm or deny that would be nice.


For sound I installed flac, alsa-utils, and the ncurses media player 
moc. alsa-utils includes alsa-mixer and that let me un-mute the sound. 
And it works! I think the docs on alsa and sound on linux have become 
divorced from reality over  the years, I know how to read and follow 
instructions, I should have been able to do this years ago. I had to do 
it by trial and error!


To confirm: the 'sound' section in aptitude shows only alsa-utils and 
moc; flac is in the 'libs' section as libflac8.


I have had a good look at what xserver-xorg-core pulls in. libsystemd0 
gets pulled in. Oh well, I'll just have to put up with it won't I!


I can cope with twm and I really like ctwm so I was shocked when I 
realised that the version of ctwm in debian is 10 years old! Version 
4.0.1 was released by the ctwm people in June this year. I had to 
download the code and compile it. I used 'checkinstall' to create the 
package and it works too! Obviously that was a few weeks and a couple of 
rebuilds ago.


DaveT
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[info at smallinnovations dot nl]

On 20-08-17 00:48, Svante Signell wrote:

On Sat, 2017-08-19 at 17:23 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:

Svante, I replied to Dave's email, not to yours. I did not remove any
quoted text purportedly from you. I did not respond to your response
to Dave.

Yes, I saw that you replied to his mail, yes. And I did not say that
you removed any text from it. That was about other mails sent by other
people. I thought this was clear from the context of that mail.


Nor was your reply to Dave about network interface names new or
novel. Everyone knows Freedesktop.Org changed the names, via udev.

Not everybody knows, no. Otherwise Dave wouldn't have written that
ethernet did not work :(


It's not a huge leap to consider a move from udev to eudev could
change the names back, or to something else.

However, admit that you read my mail before sending yours. Replying to
other peoples mails is the way mail threads are created. I thought you
knew that already.

And by the way: How many packages are you responsible for/have
contributed to Devuan? I happen the be the main contributor to eudev
being available in Devuan, as well as openrc.
___


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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Svante Signell]

On Sat, 2017-08-19 at 17:23 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> 
> Svante, I replied to Dave's email, not to yours. I did not remove any
> quoted text purportedly from you. I did not respond to your response
> to Dave.

Yes, I saw that you replied to his mail, yes. And I did not say that
you removed any text from it. That was about other mails sent by other
people. I thought this was clear from the context of that mail.

> Nor was your reply to Dave about network interface names new or
> novel. Everyone knows Freedesktop.Org changed the names, via udev. 

Not everybody knows, no. Otherwise Dave wouldn't have written that
ethernet did not work :(

> It's not a huge leap to consider a move from udev to eudev could
> change the names back, or to something else.

However, admit that you read my mail before sending yours. Replying to
other peoples mails is the way mail threads are created. I thought you
knew that already.

And by the way: How many packages are you responsible for/have
contributed to Devuan? I happen the be the main contributor to eudev
being available in Devuan, as well as openrc.
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 09:48:56 +0200
Svante Signell  wrote:

> On Sat, 2017-08-19 at 08:05 +0200, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> > On 18/08/2017 at 23:25, Svante Signell wrote:  
> > > 
> > > Hi Dave, did you see my mail about interfaces being renamed? This
> > > one
> > > from Steve is just adding some more info to the issue, but does
> > > not quote my message. Bad karma Steve :(  
> > 
> > 
> >   No bad karma.  Your message has:
> > 
> > From: Svante Signell 
> > To: Dave Turner ,
> > dng@lists .dyne.org
> > Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 18:34:15 +0200
> > 
> >   Steve's email has these references:
> > 
> > In-Reply-To:
> > <2d852491-36c6-a221-76f1-fa8e6a06a...@barradas.free-onli ne.co.uk>  
> 
> You missed:
> Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 13:45:45 -0400 (08/18/2017 07:45:45 PM)
> 
> 13:45 UTC -400 + 6 hours = 19:45 UTC +200
> His mail was sent more than one hour later than mine.
> 
> >   As you can see, there is not your email's Message-ID, which means
> > Steve did not reply to your message or to any message that was
> > replyed to yours. For this reason Steve's email does not have your
> > message quoted.  
> 
> The above is the bad karma. He should have quoted my mail adding his
> info to what I wrote. Just simple netiquette. Others on this list does
> even worse things: They reply to somebody's mail, keeping the subject
> and totally wiping out the content of that mail in their replies.   

Cut me some slack people.

Svante, I replied to Dave's email, not to yours. I did not remove any
quoted text purportedly from you. I did not respond to your response to
Dave.

Nor was your reply to Dave about network interface names new or novel.
Everyone knows Freedesktop.Org changed the names, via udev. It's not a
huge leap to consider a move from udev to eudev could change the names
back, or to something else. I didn't try to cut you out of the
conversation or foreshorten your 15 minutes of fame, and to the extent
that I did, I'm sorry.

If ONLY this were the worst black mark on my karma!

I'm sorry. I'll try to be more careful next time. I hope we can all
keep things proportional.

SteveT
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Dave Turner]

On 18/08/17 18:45, Steve Litt wrote:

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:36:12 +0100
Dave Turner  wrote:


On 18/08/17 00:22, Joel Roth wrote:

deleted /lib/udev and all the sub-directories

With eudev I have a working keyboard so today I went in and removed
/etc/systemd/* . Re-booted and I still have a working keyboard but no
network connection!

Hi Dave,

I think you have /etc/init.d/networking or something like that. This
shellscript assumes a certain name for your network interface. Your
move to eudev might have changed that name.

Perform the following command to learn interface names:

ip link

Strongarm your network name(s) into /etc/init.d/networking as needed.

If you really, really can't get /etc/init.d/networking to do the job,
here's a shellscript to bring up a wired interface to a defined IP:

#!/bin/bash
ip link set dev enp3s0 down
ip addr add 192.168.100.2/24 dev enp3s0
ip addr add 192.168.100.102/24 dev enp3s0
ip link set dev enp3s0 up
ip route add default via 192.168.100.96

Assuming your interface is named enp3s0 (and rename it if not), the
preceding script will work on any distro.

Somewhere in the past I posted, on this list, a shellscript to deduce
the name of the wired interface, and jam it into an environment
variable so it could be passed to scripts like the preceding.

If you want to boot up wifi, you need your boot to early run, *with
respawn*, wpa_supplicant, as aa daemon. This means for sysvinit put it
in /etc/inittab, not in /etc/init.d/S0whateverwpa_supplicant.

If, like me, you're willing to be disloyal to your distro, you can
start up your network trivially.


SteveT

Steve Litt
July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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I'll have a go at your and Svante's suggestions probably on Sunday 
evening. Saturday and Sunday I will be putting my Harley back together 
and going for a ride.


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Svante Signell]

On Sat, 2017-08-19 at 08:05 +0200, Alessandro Selli wrote:
> On 18/08/2017 at 23:25, Svante Signell wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Dave, did you see my mail about interfaces being renamed? This
> > one
> > from Steve is just adding some more info to the issue, but does not
> > quote my message. Bad karma Steve :(
> 
> 
>   No bad karma.  Your message has:
> 
> From: Svante Signell 
> To: Dave Turner , dng@lists
> .dyne.org
> Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 18:34:15 +0200
> 
>   Steve's email has these references:
> 
> In-Reply-To: <2d852491-36c6-a221-76f1-fa8e6a06a...@barradas.free-onli
> ne.co.uk>

You missed:
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 13:45:45 -0400 (08/18/2017 07:45:45 PM)

13:45 UTC -400 + 6 hours = 19:45 UTC +200
His mail was sent more than one hour later than mine.

>   As you can see, there is not your email's Message-ID, which means
> Steve did not reply to your message or to any message that was
> replyed to yours. For this reason Steve's email does not have your
> message quoted.

The above is the bad karma. He should have quoted my mail adding his
info to what I wrote. Just simple netiquette. Others on this list does
even worse things: They reply to somebody's mail, keeping the subject
and totally wiping out the content of that mail in their replies.   
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Alessandro Selli]

On 18/08/2017 at 23:25, Svante Signell wrote:
> On Fri, 2017-08-18 at 13:45 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:36:12 +0100
>> Dave Turner  wrote:
>>
>>> On 18/08/17 00:22, Joel Roth wrote:
 deleted /lib/udev and all the sub-directories  
>>>
>>> With eudev I have a working keyboard so today I went in and
>>> removed 
>>> /etc/systemd/* . Re-booted and I still have a working keyboard but
>>> no 
>>> network connection! 
>>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> I think you have /etc/init.d/networking or something like that. This
>> shellscript assumes a certain name for your network interface. Your
>> move to eudev might have changed that name.
>>
>> Perform the following command to learn interface names:
> 
> Hi Dave, did you see my mail about interfaces being renamed? This one
> from Steve is just adding some more info to the issue, but does not
> quote my message. Bad karma Steve :(


  No bad karma.  Your message has:

Message-ID: <1503074055.7063.25.ca...@gmail.com>
From: Svante Signell 
To: Dave Turner , dng@lists.dyne.org
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 18:34:15 +0200

  Steve's email has these references:

In-Reply-To: <2d852491-36c6-a221-76f1-fa8e6a06a...@barradas.free-online.co.uk>
References: <20170815233547.GA28662@sprite> <20170815233942.GA29197@sprite>
 <8a238764-6e27-0ea8-50ac-a2fa1e006...@barradas.free-online.co.uk>
 
 <9b6241c1-0381-00cc-8836-46d48d46c...@barradas.free-online.co.uk>
 <20170817074626.GA2638@sprite>
 
 <20170817201306.ky3kiiu2e6l2y...@angband.pl>
 
 <8eae5af0-4f55-29fc-c6c0-52c02ffb7...@barradas.free-online.co.uk>
 <20170817232245.GA11943@sprite>
 <2d852491-36c6-a221-76f1-fa8e6a06a...@barradas.free-online.co.uk>

  As you can see, there is not your email's Message-ID, which means Steve
did not reply to your message or to any message that was replyed to yours.
For this reason Steve's email does not have your message quoted.


  Regards,


-- 
Alessandro Selli
Tel: 3701355486
VOIP: sip:dhatarat...@ekiga.net
Chiave firma PGP/GPG signing key: B7FD89FD
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Svante Signell]

On Fri, 2017-08-18 at 13:45 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:36:12 +0100
> Dave Turner  wrote:
> 
> > On 18/08/17 00:22, Joel Roth wrote:
> > > deleted /lib/udev and all the sub-directories  
> > 
> > With eudev I have a working keyboard so today I went in and
> > removed 
> > /etc/systemd/* . Re-booted and I still have a working keyboard but
> > no 
> > network connection! 
> 
> Hi Dave,
> 
> I think you have /etc/init.d/networking or something like that. This
> shellscript assumes a certain name for your network interface. Your
> move to eudev might have changed that name.
> 
> Perform the following command to learn interface names:

Hi Dave, did you see my mail about interfaces being renamed? This one
from Steve is just adding some more info to the issue, but does not
quote my message. Bad karma Steve :(

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Svante Signell]

On Fri, 2017-08-18 at 16:36 +0100, Dave Turner wrote:
> On 18/08/17 00:22, Joel Roth wrote:
> > deleted /lib/udev and all the sub-directories
> 
> With eudev I have a working keyboard so today I went in and removed 
> /etc/systemd/* . Re-booted and I still have a working keyboard but
> no 
> network connection! I fear I will have to go through /etc/init.d and 
> what have you and actually read the comments in the scripts!

Note that the network name changes if you are using sysv-rc with eudev.
Can you log in to your box without network and do dmesg|grep eth0 as
root? Then you can change /etc/network/interfaces accordingly.

hth

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Dave Turner]

On 18/08/17 00:22, Joel Roth wrote:

deleted /lib/udev and all the sub-directories


With eudev I have a working keyboard so today I went in and removed 
/etc/systemd/* . Re-booted and I still have a working keyboard but no 
network connection! I fear I will have to go through /etc/init.d and 
what have you and actually read the comments in the scripts!


I have an old 64bit Acer dekstop that I will use to continue this 
investigation. I would like to watch some DVDs on my iMac so I will put 
it back to a fully systemd free debian wheezy 7.11 and see if I can use 
apulse to get the audio working instead of having to use pulseaudio.


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Adam Borowski]

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 10:34:06PM +0100, Dave Turner wrote:
> On 17/08/17 21:13, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 08:17:56PM +0100, Dave Turner wrote:
> > > Having a bottle of wine before I start the devuan-jessie install and the
> > > systemd purge...
> > > 
> > > (hey, I need a clear head for this right?!)
> > If you have apache and samba installed, I'd rather recommend adding
> > something stronger to the mix, and padding the wall.  Wheezy->jessie
> > upgrades of these two are a mess.
> > 
> > I thank all the deities that's beyond me.  Stretch->buster, here we come...
> 
> Forget stretch->buster, my laptop runs sid. Just do it! The 'stronger
> addition to the mix' is The Residents streamed from my NAS4Free server
> through my Sonos system into a pair of BBC LS5/8 studio monitors. Loud!

Well, stretch, and in the future buster, are for boring machines.



> Sadly the bottle of wine is now empty.

Aaaw!  That's a tragedy. :(

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Joel Roth]

Dave wrote:
> I deleted /lib/udev and all the sub-directories - I'm running eudev right?
> What could possibly go wrong? Still works, but whatever it is that sets the
> font size is now broken, the font is huge! I suppose 'something' now thinks
> the display is an old 640 x 380.

Please keep notes, your experiences could a useful guide to
other would-be, ah, strippers down ;-)
 
> DaveT
> 
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Dave Turner]

On 17/08/17 22:34, Dave Turner wrote:

On 17/08/17 21:13, Adam Borowski wrote:

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 08:17:56PM +0100, Dave Turner wrote:

Thanks Joel, but I have my 'killing head' on. _ANYTHING_ on wheezy that
dares to mention systemd is gone. Still works.

Having a bottle of wine before I start the devuan-jessie install and 
the

systemd purge...

(hey, I need a clear head for this right?!)

If you have apache and samba installed, I'd rather recommend adding
something stronger to the mix, and padding the wall. Wheezy->jessie
upgrades of these two are a mess.

I thank all the deities that's beyond me.  Stretch->buster, here we 
come...



Meow!


231 packages installed in the most minimal of installations possible.

I have no need of apache, I will need samba client to be able to get 
at my NAS4Free media server.


Ascii with eudev is working, but now I need to make it do something 
useful...


grepping systemd turns up far too many files that mention systemd, 
some just doc files, but I want them gone.


Forget stretch->buster, my laptop runs sid. Just do it! The 'stronger 
addition to the mix' is The Residents streamed from my NAS4Free server 
through my Sonos system into a pair of BBC LS5/8 studio monitors. 
Loud! Sadly the bottle of wine is now empty.


DaveT


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I deleted /lib/udev and all the sub-directories - I'm running eudev 
right? What could possibly go wrong? Still works, but whatever it is 
that sets the font size is now broken, the font is huge! I suppose 
'something' now thinks the display is an old 640 x 380.


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Dave Turner]

On 17/08/17 21:13, Adam Borowski wrote:

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 08:17:56PM +0100, Dave Turner wrote:

Thanks Joel, but I have my 'killing head' on. _ANYTHING_ on wheezy that
dares to mention systemd is gone. Still works.

Having a bottle of wine before I start the devuan-jessie install and the
systemd purge...

(hey, I need a clear head for this right?!)

If you have apache and samba installed, I'd rather recommend adding
something stronger to the mix, and padding the wall.  Wheezy->jessie
upgrades of these two are a mess.

I thank all the deities that's beyond me.  Stretch->buster, here we come...


Meow!


231 packages installed in the most minimal of installations possible.

I have no need of apache, I will need samba client to be able to get at 
my NAS4Free media server.


Ascii with eudev is working, but now I need to make it do something 
useful...


grepping systemd turns up far too many files that mention systemd, some 
just doc files, but I want them gone.


Forget stretch->buster, my laptop runs sid. Just do it! The 'stronger 
addition to the mix' is The Residents streamed from my NAS4Free server 
through my Sonos system into a pair of BBC LS5/8 studio monitors. Loud! 
Sadly the bottle of wine is now empty.


DaveT


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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Adam Borowski]

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 08:17:56PM +0100, Dave Turner wrote:
> Thanks Joel, but I have my 'killing head' on. _ANYTHING_ on wheezy that
> dares to mention systemd is gone. Still works.
> 
> Having a bottle of wine before I start the devuan-jessie install and the
> systemd purge...
> 
> (hey, I need a clear head for this right?!)

If you have apache and samba installed, I'd rather recommend adding
something stronger to the mix, and padding the wall.  Wheezy->jessie
upgrades of these two are a mess.

I thank all the deities that's beyond me.  Stretch->buster, here we come...


Meow!
-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ 
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Being wise is hard, but wise-ass... ooh, this one I can deliver!
⠈⠳⣄ 
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Dave Turner]

On 17/08/17 08:46, Joel Roth wrote:

Dave Turner wrote:

I have boot from a debian 6 squeeze CD, anything later refuses to boot the
iMac. (Fedora has failed since fedora 13, Tinycore linux boots, Slackware
boots) Then I do a dist-upgrade to wheezy, that takes it straight to 7.11
which has the beginnings of systemd in it.

I used aptitude to get rid of anything with systemd in the name, then I
deleted everything systemd from /lib/systemd and etc/systemd.

There are units for starting services in /lib/systemd, but
go unused unless you have systemd installed. At least one
proof-of-concept init system, a wrapper for runit, aims at
supporting the systemd service units.

https://github.com/the-eater/shinit

The config files in /etc/systemd are equally harmless.
Probably any app that would look in /etc/systemd will be
declared with a systemd dependency.


After a reboot
and purge I was down to 174 packages and a working but very minimal terminal
system. No sound no nothing, reminds me of playing Moonlander on a 300-baud
terminal into the mainframe all those years ago...

Then I did the devuan-jessie dist-upgrade. That pulled in systemd-udevd so I
repeated what I did with wheezy - got rid of all of it!  And broke it again!
The screen font stays enormous and the keyboard doesn't work so I can't
login.

I suppose eudev is the next step once I have re-installed squeeze and
wheezy!

DaveT

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Thanks Joel, but I have my 'killing head' on. _ANYTHING_ on wheezy that 
dares to mention systemd is gone. Still works.


Having a bottle of wine before I start the devuan-jessie install and the 
systemd purge...


(hey, I need a clear head for this right?!)

DaveT

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Joel Roth]

Dave Turner wrote:
> I have boot from a debian 6 squeeze CD, anything later refuses to boot the
> iMac. (Fedora has failed since fedora 13, Tinycore linux boots, Slackware
> boots) Then I do a dist-upgrade to wheezy, that takes it straight to 7.11
> which has the beginnings of systemd in it.
> 
> I used aptitude to get rid of anything with systemd in the name, then I
> deleted everything systemd from /lib/systemd and etc/systemd. 

There are units for starting services in /lib/systemd, but
go unused unless you have systemd installed. At least one
proof-of-concept init system, a wrapper for runit, aims at
supporting the systemd service units. 

https://github.com/the-eater/shinit

The config files in /etc/systemd are equally harmless.
Probably any app that would look in /etc/systemd will be
declared with a systemd dependency. 

> After a reboot
> and purge I was down to 174 packages and a working but very minimal terminal
> system. No sound no nothing, reminds me of playing Moonlander on a 300-baud
> terminal into the mainframe all those years ago...
> 
> Then I did the devuan-jessie dist-upgrade. That pulled in systemd-udevd so I
> repeated what I did with wheezy - got rid of all of it!  And broke it again!
> The screen font stays enormous and the keyboard doesn't work so I can't
> login.
> 
> I suppose eudev is the next step once I have re-installed squeeze and
> wheezy!
> 
> DaveT
> 
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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[fsmithred]

On 08/16/2017 02:36 AM, Dave Turner wrote:
> On 16/08/17 00:39, Joel Roth wrote:
>> Further, I don't have libsystemd0 installed on my system at
>> all, although there are some config files hanging around in /etc.
>>
>> dpkg -l libsystemd0
>> Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold
>> |
>> Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend
>>
>> |/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad)
>> ||/ Name Version ArchitectureDescription
>> +++--===-===-=
>>
>> rc  libsystemd0:amd64215-17+deb8u4   amd64   systemd utility
>> library
>>
> Thanks for that, I'll be more careful when I redo the install!
> 
> Mainly I need a nice web browser - Palemoon is OK, and I use VLC for
> watching DVDs. None of that needs anything more than xdm, twm, and xfe.
> Later jack audio will get installed along with audacity.
> 
> Apple hardware is really good quality but can be very fussy when you get
> rid of OSX. My iMac is 11 years old and refuses to break.
> 
> DaveT
> 

Note the version of libsystemd0 listed above. It's in jessie. If you
remove libsystemd0 from ascii, you'll be browsing the web with lynx or
w3m. PA is not the only thing that needs it - you'll lose xserver-xorg, too.

There's also /lib/systemd. You can't get rid of that, but you can get rid
of /lib/systemd/systemd-udevd by installing eudev from experimental.
Instructions are here if you need them:
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1543

fsmithred


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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Joel Roth]

Further, I don't have libsystemd0 installed on my system at
all, although there are some config files hanging around in /etc.

dpkg -l libsystemd0
Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold
| Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend
|/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad)
||/ Name Version ArchitectureDescription
+++--===-===-=
rc  libsystemd0:amd64215-17+deb8u4   amd64   systemd utility library

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Re: [DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Joel Roth]

Dave Turner wrote:
> I'm running a very minimal install of devuan ascii on my old Apple iMac.
> 
> I have never been able to get sound working on the iMac using any
> linux distro unless pulseaudio was installed. 

Hi Dave,

AFAIK pulseaudio uses ALSA and ALSA drivers to communicate
with the soundcard. It doesn't have drivers of its own.

So it's quite possible that your failures to set up sound on
an intel-Mac without PA are not due to a lacking in ALSA,
but to bad lack insufficient trial-and-error or to policies
of the distros you were using.

Regarding /lib64 contents, this is almost certainly due to 
your choice of apps. In my system, 'ls /lib64' returns only:

ld-linux-x86-64.so.2

cheers,

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[DNG] devuan ascii - how much of systemd is still in there?

[Dave Turner]

I'm running a very minimal install of devuan ascii on my old Apple iMac.

Using xdm to login, twm as the window manager, and xfe for file 
management. Then dillo and Firefox for web-browsing.


Aptitude shows that libsystemd0 is still there but pulseaudio etc depend 
on it and I have never been able to get sound working on the iMac using 
any linux distro unless pulseaudio was installed. Aptitude shows that 
nothing else with systemd in the name is installed, and as far as I am 
aware libsystemd0 is there to fool those applications that need systemd 
into thinking it is there.


I was having a rummage around in the /lib64 directory and there is a lot 
of systemd stuff in there. Interesting, I'm not running systemd so I can 
get rid of all that!


Bad move. All the X11 stuff stopped working, the terminal font stays at 
an enormous size instead of switching to a nice 10point or whatever size 
font during boot-up. And I can't even mount a usb drive the old way 
doing sudo mount whatever.


Never mind, I can re-install. But all those systemd library files worry me.

Are they caused by allowing pulseaudio on there? If so, I'll have to try 
using apulse or whatever to get sound working.


DaveT

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