Re: [Dng] dev-list
> list members off-list and best of luck to Devuan. I'll be decommissioning > the Jenkins slave I contributed, and will go get some work done I have no dog in this argument, however, I have plenty of servers available if we need to build any new platforms: Jenkins, Vagrant, SDK, etc. Linux O'Beardly @LinuxOBeardly http://o.beard.ly linux.obear...@gmail.com On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 5:33 AM, Franco Lanza wrote: > On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 10:20:19AM +0300, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > > You can now count me amongst those in the "fuck it, this is a waste of > > time" camp. Good luck with your forum, your "everyone use one list or > GTFO" > > attitude, the constant off-list clique forming and gossipy emails about > > list members off-list and best of luck to Devuan. I'll be decommissioning > > the Jenkins slave I contributed, and will go get some work done. > > > Please, don't do that. Hellekin is just argukmenting he's view, i'm all > to split ml, other people have other opinions. Can't we avoid those > extreme things for such those little arguments? > > I'm the one managing the jenkins build cluster, why do you want to > damage the whole project and my work cause you and hellekin having a > little discussion about not-a-critical part of the whole project? > > > -- > > Franco (nextime) Lanza > Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy > SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it > web: http://www.nexlab.net > > NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org > you can download my public key at: > http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers > Key ID = D6132D50 > Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 > --- > echo > 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq > | dc > --- > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
hi, On Fri, 10 Apr 2015, Brad Campbell wrote: > On 09/04/15 23:56, Laurent Bercot wrote: > >On 09/04/2015 10:37, Jaromil wrote: > >>a -Dev list is there already, just not public and invite only. > > > > That's really a shame, because I would love to have access to that list - > >even read-only. Isn't it possible to open subscriptions while keeping > >posts moderated ? (posts from devs would be auto-approved, of course) > > > > This +1. I don't need to post, and in fact it's probably better if I > don't, but I actually *really* want to see what is going on under > the bonnet. I joined the dng list for probably the same reasons > everyone else did. I want to *use* what is produced and even > possibly contribute (bug reports and patches I suppose are my > limits). I do understand the technical components, and I don't want > to ask user level questions. thanks for your interest and for believing this project is worth looking at. I think it will not delude you. however, there is much less going on via mail, than via git. if you want to follow up then subscribe to https://git.devuan.org and follow the updates. in particular: all projects in this group, the base packages we are modifying https://git.devuan.org/groups/packages-base the repository software Nextime is writing, amprolla https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla the SDK I'm developing, used for package maintainance and to bake isos and vms https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-sdk the patches to jenkins-debian-glue by Nextime https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/jenkins-devuan-glue today included upstream! in case this is used by Debian Jessie https://github.com/mika/jenkins-debian-glue/blob/master/debian/changelog then we can officially say that Debian is already using and benefitting from our development ;^) the releasebot triggering builds from gitlab to jenkins https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/devuan-releasebot the Vdev repository by Jude https://git.devuan.org/pkgs-utopia-substitution/vdev > I will say I'm completely disillusioned by the quantity of > pontificating and bike-shedding that seems to dominate this list and > I'd love to read a list with actual technical substance. the latest news to celebrate about: we have a CI that succesfully builds packages now also for the following platforms armel, armhs, sparc, mips, mipsel, ppc, ppc64, arm64, s390x, m68k (recently announced by nextime on IRC) > Don't lock us out. Moderate us, or create a read-only gateway, but > don't isolate us. Please. this is what we can do atm. if you have time, then please activate yourself and help! we need someone to gather news like DWN was doing developers are at full capacity and cannot commit to more than this. bikeshedding at this point is simply ignored. ciao signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 09/04/15 23:56, Laurent Bercot wrote: On 09/04/2015 10:37, Jaromil wrote: a -Dev list is there already, just not public and invite only. That's really a shame, because I would love to have access to that list - even read-only. Isn't it possible to open subscriptions while keeping posts moderated ? (posts from devs would be auto-approved, of course) This +1. I don't need to post, and in fact it's probably better if I don't, but I actually *really* want to see what is going on under the bonnet. I joined the dng list for probably the same reasons everyone else did. I want to *use* what is produced and even possibly contribute (bug reports and patches I suppose are my limits). I do understand the technical components, and I don't want to ask user level questions. I will say I'm completely disillusioned by the quantity of pontificating and bike-shedding that seems to dominate this list and I'd love to read a list with actual technical substance. Don't lock us out. Moderate us, or create a read-only gateway, but don't isolate us. Please. Brad. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 09/04/2015 10:37, Jaromil wrote: a -Dev list is there already, just not public and invite only. That's really a shame, because I would love to have access to that list - even read-only. Isn't it possible to open subscriptions while keeping posts moderated ? (posts from devs would be auto-approved, of course) -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Thu, 09 Apr 2015, Franco Lanza wrote: > On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 10:20:19AM +0300, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > > You know what hellekin - you post from a dyne.org email address, and > > from the way you write you put yourself forward as one of the people > > running the project. > > dyne.org != devun dyne.org != VUAs > > dyne.org is helping VUAs and devuan with services, work, resources, > some vuas are also in dyne ( notabily Jaromil), but please let > separate things remain separate. FTR I've already edited myself Devuan's wikipedia page to make it clear http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Devuan&action=history Devuan is developed by VUA, Debian is by DD Devuan : Dyne.org = Debian : SPI Dyne.org runs relevant and long-term operations in FOSS since the year 2000, while putting effort in Devuan we are looking forward to anyone with more experience than us in community projects to make an educated critique of our contribution, we'll certainly listen. ciao signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
>Author: Martijn Dekkers >Date: 2015-04-08 00:35 -400 >To: dng@lists.dyne.org >Subject: Re: [Dng] dev-list >Personally, my view is that there is no cost or significant effort to the >project for splitting to -dev and -user. Those who are not interested in >either of these lists don't have to subscribe, and don't have to deal with >whatever it is they don't want to deal with. Gentle moderation becomes >possible. "systemd is evil"? "debian sucks"? "I don't know how to >configure >my WLAN card I bought on a flea market in Morocco 15 years ago for 2 >Euro"? - take it to -user. "Systemd is evil" and "Debian sucks" aren't part of a mature discussion for a budding OS. And I'm having trouble figuring out why devs would want to burrow down into a hole to produce a system for a community that could potentially be as reactionary and mean-spirited as that to which they claim to be opposed. Instead of "gentle moderation", how about gently leading by example and making it clear this isn't the place for attacks on or blanket complaints about other OSes or software? -Jonathan On Thursday, April 9, 2015 7:07 AM, Jaromil wrote: On April 9, 2015 8:20:19 AM GMT+01:00, Martijn Dekkers wrote: >I am neither the first, nor will I be the last, to ask for a -dev list. a -Dev list is there already, just not public and invite only. Even the take over of the Kremlin was done by leaving the hangry mob outside of its gates. >> *** I see another two groups: people who want to work together and >build >> something different that won't end up in an isolated technical >committee >> in their ivory towers, and bullies. we don't have towers, we have expertise and devs capable of recognizing it... >You know what hellekin - you post from a dyne.org email address, and >from >the way you write you put yourself forward as one of the people running >the >project. Frankly, I am really not all that happy with your attitude, >and as >you represent dyne.org, I have no option but to assume this to be >representative of the project leads in general. ...and obviously you are not able to recognize it. FWIW this public list is enough for now and I doubt we will open the Dev list to anyone without invites and after knowing each other. We have enough troubles with this and systemd fraudsters running a twitter account that presumes everything written on this public board is what Devuan says. kthxbye Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
Oh wait, it wasn't offlist. On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 5:13 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: >> The «long standing, wide-ranging implementation pattern» thing is a >> bogus argument. Similar to "Lots of people jump of bridges, care to >> join them?" > > > Thats just uninformed bullshit. "Patterns" are one of the cornerstones of > modern computing architecture - without patterns everybody will be doomed to > re-invent everything from the ground up. Comparing patterns with > bridge-jumping is ridiculous, and not a little bit stupid. Separate lists > are widely practiced in the open source community at large because they > work, not "because everybody else is doing it". Still, convoluted arguments, feeble attempt at insult, does seem like a troll. > This discussion has gone from a simple request for a -dev list to a wide > ranging discussion about how we can do something similar without actually > going for the cheapest and easiest option (which is to have a separate > list). Interestingly, I see two broad groups. Those that want a simple dev > list, and those that absolutely don't want other people to have one, for the > most tenuous of arguments. There's the third camp of people who believes a dev-only list will generate self-segregation, meaning devs will only read that list. This isn't a profecy. Too much noise, i'll stop reading this thread. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On April 9, 2015 8:20:19 AM GMT+01:00, Martijn Dekkers wrote: >I am neither the first, nor will I be the last, to ask for a -dev list. a -Dev list is there already, just not public and invite only. Even the take over of the Kremlin was done by leaving the hangry mob outside of its gates. >> *** I see another two groups: people who want to work together and >build >> something different that won't end up in an isolated technical >committee >> in their ivory towers, and bullies. we don't have towers, we have expertise and devs capable of recognizing it... >You know what hellekin - you post from a dyne.org email address, and >from >the way you write you put yourself forward as one of the people running >the >project. Frankly, I am really not all that happy with your attitude, >and as >you represent dyne.org, I have no option but to assume this to be >representative of the project leads in general. ...and obviously you are not able to recognize it. FWIW this public list is enough for now and I doubt we will open the Dev list to anyone without invites and after knowing each other. We have enough troubles with this and systemd fraudsters running a twitter account that presumes everything written on this public board is what Devuan says. kthxbye Martin ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Thu, 2015-04-09 at 12:00 +0200, Laurent Bercot wrote: > For what is worth - and at risk of adding fuel to the fire, but > I am just voicing my impressions and you guys will do what you want > with it: > Please direct me to the place where the technical discussions are > happening; if they're supposed to happen here, well, sorry but that's not > an efficient working environment, and I'll find information by other means. I agree with you about the low level of technical discussions here, but people leaving or pulling the plug of a build host just because a -dev list is not created *immediately* is very immature :( For technical discussions, I too have problems to filter out them in the noise level, but in addition to here, you have the #devuan IRC and the issues in gitlab https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/issues I'm hoping for some better ways to get the technical discussions filtered out, too. A forum is definitely not a solution, but maybe it can lower the noise level in this list :D ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
For what is worth - and at risk of adding fuel to the fire, but I am just voicing my impressions and you guys will do what you want with it: I have subscribed to this list five days ago, hoping to see technical discussions about how to design a distribution without systemd. I am the author of an alternative system (s6), and am interested in learning, among other things: - what systemd provides in today's distributions and needs replacing - what are the solutions chosen by devuan folks So far, in 5 days I've received about 100 messages, of which: - seven are of interest to me (the vdev part. I actually learned something, as I often do when Jude writes.) - more than one-third is the current meta discussion about the list -more than half of the rest is circlejerking or idle chatter. 7% is too low for me. Please don't suggest reader-side filters: - they are basically an admission of defeat in focusing the list's purpose - they still require writer-side effort, and they put burden on people who actually want to be cooperative. Honestly, I have nothing against circlejerking. It feels good, and I hate systemd as much as anyone here - probably more than most; so, seeing likeminded people is heartwarming. But my belief is that one of the main reasons systemd is winning is that its opponents spend too much energy talking about it and not enough designing alternatives - and so I'm here for action, not words. Please direct me to the place where the technical discussions are happening; if they're supposed to happen here, well, sorry but that's not an efficient working environment, and I'll find information by other means. -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 10:20:19AM +0300, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > You know what hellekin - you post from a dyne.org email address, and from > the way you write you put yourself forward as one of the people running the > project. dyne.org != devun dyne.org != VUAs dyne.org is helping VUAs and devuan with services, work, resources, some vuas are also in dyne ( notabily Jaromil ), but please let separate things remain separate. -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Thu 09 April 2015 11:27:45 Franco Lanza wrote: > all of those open to anyone, without restriction on WHO can join, but > with restriction on WHAT can be considered in topic and what not. (plus all the rest) Absolutely to the point. Thanks! Exactly what we see everywhere else *WORKING*. And assuming that a multipke strictly on-topic ML were what "happened to debian" is... not worth arguing it, just silly. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 10:20:19AM +0300, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > You can now count me amongst those in the "fuck it, this is a waste of > time" camp. Good luck with your forum, your "everyone use one list or GTFO" > attitude, the constant off-list clique forming and gossipy emails about > list members off-list and best of luck to Devuan. I'll be decommissioning > the Jenkins slave I contributed, and will go get some work done. Please, don't do that. Hellekin is just argukmenting he's view, i'm all to split ml, other people have other opinions. Can't we avoid those extreme things for such those little arguments? I'm the one managing the jenkins build cluster, why do you want to damage the whole project and my work cause you and hellekin having a little discussion about not-a-critical part of the whole project? -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Thu 09 April 2015 02:20:16 hellekin wrote: >> *** I see another two groups: people who want to work together and build > something different that won't end up in an isolated technical committee > in their ivory towers, and bullies. Sorry that's not to the point. Nobody at all talked about "technical committee" whether isolated or not. It's a *fact* that developers won't pay attention to ML or even fora that have a bad S/N ratio, since devels are interested in getting thing *done*, not *discussed* and derailed. And you won't force any devel to do such discussion "in public" and waste 90% of their time to act as 1st level helpdesk for users who "want to ask how to configure their desktop" You're trying to enforce an organizational rule (no TC) by means of a communication medium - it won't work, it never did (at least I never seen it pan out). Call me bully for that if you like, I don't care. And I prolly will cancel my registration for that ML for exactly the reasons of poor S/N, same reasons I never been happy to linger on #debianfork. And I bet a lot of devels already did same or are going to do so soonish. The discussion if we need a devel-ML is the best proof that we urgently need one where such discussion never would happen. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
Just my 2 c.: Having multiple mailing lists isn't to be seen as separate users from developers. It has to be seen as separate topics. In my view even more than 2 ml are ok, something like: 1- ml dev 1- ml general 1- ml announces 1- ml translations/localization 1- ml users 1- ml governance 1- ml graphics 1- ml infrastructure 1- ml legal all of those open to anyone, without restriction on WHO can join, but with restriction on WHAT can be considered in topic and what not. This is the same as a single forum where you have multiple arguments where there are different threads for any argument. If anyone is interested in all, can join all ml. I strongly prefer ml over forums, and, personally, i will not partecipate regulary in any forum ( i don't find myself confortable with them ), anyway, it's ok if the is something that connect bidirectionally forum and ml as long as i can use the "ml" side as it can be used as a common ml. Also, my partecipation in *this* ml is low CAUSE of the high noise level, but this IS a generic discussion ml, so, it's absolutely expected and normal that there is such noise, so, no complain about that. -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Thu, 2015-04-09 at 10:20 +0300, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > I am neither the first, nor will I be the last, to ask for a -dev list. > >> *** I see another two groups: people who want to work together and >> build something different that won't end up in an isolated technical >> committee in their ivory towers, and bullies. > > I don't see anything mentioned about technical committees or ivory > towers. Bullies, seriously? That's what happened with debian :( > You know what hellekin - you post from a dyne.org email address, and > from the way you write you put yourself forward as one of the people > running the project. As far as I understood he is one of the VUAs, yes. > Frankly, I am really not all that happy with your attitude, and as you > represent dyne.org, I have no option but to assume this to be > representative of the project leads in general. So far, quite a few > people with: or interesting; or no-noise; or informative opinions; > have left the list because of the lack of a -dev list, or a basic "we > don't like your type around here" sentiment that lead them to think > "fuck it, this is a waste of time". > I don't think people having serious interest in devuan have left, sorry. > You can now count me amongst those in the "fuck it, this is a waste of > time" camp. In what way would it be a waste of time? As I see it there are advantages and disadvantages with one mailing list: + doesn't separate users from developers, as in the debian case. - the signal to noise level can be low at times, but subject/user filtering in you mail clients can fix that. As voiced by other people before, use one list until there is a real need for a -dev list (at the risk of creating a debian situation). However, being subscribed to both debian-devel and debian-user for a long time I've soon unsubscribed from debian-user due to the incredibly high noise level of irrelevant postings or help requests :( As there is a large need for help from unexperienced people perhaps a devuan-help list is a better complement to the devuan list (and renaming dng to devuan-dev)? > Good luck with your forum, your "everyone use one list or GTFO" > attitude, the constant off-list clique forming and gossipy emails > about list members off-list and best of luck to Devuan. I think that a forum could be good for people who wants to discuss various issues, as that would (hopefully) reduce the noise level on the mailing list. Personally I've never been fond of forums, they are hard to extract useful information from, and you have to use a web browser to access the postings (unless forwarded to a mailing list, please don't). On the other hand, IRC with #debianfork and #devuan fills about the same need, so? > I'll be decommissioning the Jenkins slave I contributed, and will go > get some work done. Please don't, that would be very unfortunate. Just my 5c. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 10:20:19AM +0300, Martijn Dekkers wrote: [cut] > > You can now count me amongst those in the "fuck it, this is a waste of > time" camp. Good luck with your forum, your "everyone use one list or GTFO" > attitude, the constant off-list clique forming and gossipy emails about > list members off-list and best of luck to Devuan. I'll be decommissioning > the Jenkins slave I contributed, and will go get some work done. Well, tagging Devuan as a "waste of time" only because hellekin proposed to have a single ML plus a forum, and several people have expressed their opinion about this proposal, seems a bit of an overreaction to me :) But I guess I am missing something here. I also have not seen all this off-list chit-chatting that you mention, but if it was just gossipping around then I am happy I haven't. That's a waste of time, IMHO :) HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
> > That's pretty arrogant. Can you back that up with some actual reasons, > like > > others in this discussion are doing? Or is this simply a case of > "because I > > said so" > > > > It's not arrogant, it's a fact. There's not even a single release, only > a dozen or so regular participants, and you already want to detach > developers from users? You're proposing to solve a problem that does > not exist yet. People used to mailing lists use filters when they're > annoyed with the traffic. > I am neither the first, nor will I be the last, to ask for a -dev list. > *** I see another two groups: people who want to work together and build > something different that won't end up in an isolated technical committee > in their ivory towers, and bullies. > I don't see anything mentioned about technical committees or ivory towers. Bullies, seriously? You know what hellekin - you post from a dyne.org email address, and from the way you write you put yourself forward as one of the people running the project. Frankly, I am really not all that happy with your attitude, and as you represent dyne.org, I have no option but to assume this to be representative of the project leads in general. So far, quite a few people with: or interesting; or no-noise; or informative opinions; have left the list because of the lack of a -dev list, or a basic "we don't like your type around here" sentiment that lead them to think "fuck it, this is a waste of time". You can now count me amongst those in the "fuck it, this is a waste of time" camp. Good luck with your forum, your "everyone use one list or GTFO" attitude, the constant off-list clique forming and gossipy emails about list members off-list and best of luck to Devuan. I'll be decommissioning the Jenkins slave I contributed, and will go get some work done. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Thu, Apr 09, 2015 at 02:28:38AM -0300, hellekin wrote: > On 04/09/2015 01:15 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > >> We do not need another list. > >> > > > > That's pretty arrogant. Can you back that up with some actual reasons, like > > others in this discussion are doing? Or is this simply a case of "because I > > said so" > > > > It's not arrogant, it's a fact. There's not even a single release, only > a dozen or so regular participants, and you already want to detach > developers from users? You're proposing to solve a problem that does > not exist yet. People used to mailing lists use filters when they're > annoyed with the traffic. > +1 On the same tone of some other posts of mine, I think we should reduce the overhead to a minimum, at least for the moment. In my little experience, MLs are the easiest way to keep people in touch, while forums may be good to get help on specific things. We know that MLs might become hard to follow at times, but I don't find forums any better at that. My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/09/2015 01:17 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > > The reason the vast majority of projects use separate lists is because it > *works* [dev] tagged topics don't work very well, because in most cases, > people tend to forget, or change the subjectline, or whatever. > *** I agree that Mailman's topics suck because it's on the poster to remember to put the tag. The good thing though, is that developers are more likely to learn the trick than non-developers, especially if they automate this when sending to the list*, which developers know how to do, right? So noise automatically gets below the threshold with a minimal effort. * On the condition they stick to posting "work-related stuff" and refrain from being human. But I'd rather have a "mailing list" system that allows anyone to subscribe once, and then select topics they are actually interested in participating to, rather than segregating from the start. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/09/2015 01:15 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: >> We do not need another list. >> > > That's pretty arrogant. Can you back that up with some actual reasons, like > others in this discussion are doing? Or is this simply a case of "because I > said so" > It's not arrogant, it's a fact. There's not even a single release, only a dozen or so regular participants, and you already want to detach developers from users? You're proposing to solve a problem that does not exist yet. People used to mailing lists use filters when they're annoyed with the traffic. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/09/2015 01:13 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > > Thats just uninformed bullshit. > > [snip] > > list). Interestingly, I see two broad groups. Those that want a simple dev > list, and those that absolutely don't want other people to have one, for > the most tenuous of arguments. > *** I see another two groups: people who want to work together and build something different that won't end up in an isolated technical committee in their ivory towers, and bullies. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
> *** We could use mailman's topics for that. When you want to talk about > development, use the [dev] tag in the Subject, and if you're not > interested in anything else, simply subscribe to the [dev] topic and > ignore the rest. > The reason the vast majority of projects use separate lists is because it *works* [dev] tagged topics don't work very well, because in most cases, people tend to forget, or change the subjectline, or whatever. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
> We do not need another list. > That's pretty arrogant. Can you back that up with some actual reasons, like others in this discussion are doing? Or is this simply a case of "because I said so" ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
> > The «long standing, wide-ranging implementation pattern» thing is a > bogus argument. Similar to "Lots of people jump of bridges, care to > join them?" > Thats just uninformed bullshit. "Patterns" are one of the cornerstones of modern computing architecture - without patterns everybody will be doomed to re-invent everything from the ground up. Comparing patterns with bridge-jumping is ridiculous, and not a little bit stupid. Separate lists are widely practiced in the open source community at large because they work, not "because everybody else is doing it". This discussion has gone from a simple request for a -dev list to a wide ranging discussion about how we can do something similar without actually going for the cheapest and easiest option (which is to have a separate list). Interestingly, I see two broad groups. Those that want a simple dev list, and those that absolutely don't want other people to have one, for the most tenuous of arguments. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
> should we just retire the mailing list(s) and start using the forum? > ...I don't even... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Wed, Apr 08, 2015 at 05:47:25PM -0300, hellekin wrote: > On 04/08/2015 11:57 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > Rather than dividing the list between developers and users, > > it would be better to divide them betwen technical and nontechnical. > > > *** We could use mailman's topics for that. When you want to talk about > development, use the [dev] tag in the Subject, and if you're not > interested in anything else, simply subscribe to the [dev] topic and > ignore the rest. That would suffice. I didn't know it was possible to subscribe to one topic in a mailing list. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/08/2015 09:49 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > I make the following pledge to make sure I don't cause or continue conflict > or noise on Dng: > > 1) I will not respond, at least on-list, to any thread discussing the > merits or shames of systemd. I will either ignore, respond offlist, or > filter and move on. > > 2) If discussing init systems, I will confine myself to their > technicalities and possible concerns about future changes. > > 3) I will be nice in my on-list responses. > > 4) Any "don't feed the troll" responses I give will be offlist. > *** +1. We do not need another list. If and when we do, we can think about it. It's the third message I send on the same topic in three different threads. I can't see that as being very productive. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/08/2015 07:44 PM, Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > > We got #debianfork and #devuan IRC channels for pretty much the same reasons, > and it seems it sort of works there. So for ML that would be the natural > template to follow. > *** Except the move from IRC to email matches in nature the move from fish to mammals. Two completely different worlds. On IRC it makes sense to use as many channels as you like, because you're just an Alt-A away from any of them. We have #debianfork for, well, general chat. We have #devuan, which was originally a split for developers, but became a tad more chatty than anticipated. And then we have #devuan-dev where bots spit commits like it's raining bits, so people there hardly chat. I really don't believe there's a natural template to follow there, besides NOT alienating users and devs. What I'm looking forward to is having a single "Devuan community channel" that people can use via email or Web seamlessly, and where specific groups can form and have focused discussions while other people will chat away their lives for their own and others' enjoyment. But at any moment, someone can send a heads up and have all eyeballs watching that group fading away and call them back to the center of everyone's attention. This won't happen with split lists. This already happens on the gitlab where issues can be used as focused back and forth communication media to get things done. I hope the forum can satisfy the needs of a larger community who won't necessarily adopt a pragmatic and utilitarian approach of "tracking issues". All things being equal, I'd rather stick to the minimalist mailing list approach: one. I'm already struggling to read any single mailing list regularly not to have another two lists in my inbox. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Wed, 8 Apr 2015 19:16:34 -0400 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > On Thu, 9 Apr 2015 05:44:41 +0800 > Robert Storey wrote: > > > Which begs the question: should we just retire the mailing > > list(s) and start using the forum? > > Please dont; with a mailing list one can keep locally the messages > that seem interesting, for later reference. > > If you are dead keen on a forum, at least please go for one of those > that are ambivalent, and can be accessed as a forum as well as > distribute all postings as emails. Cheers, I agree. With mailing lists, posts come to you, you don't go out looking for the posts. With mailing lists, it's dead bang easy to send to the proper folders, and easy to send individuals to /dev/null if appropriate. I think splitting the list solves a problem we don't have. We had one or two threads that got too hot. That's it. I'd say the loss of easy communication between devs and users isn't worth being rid of those one or two hot threads. Someone mentioned marking something with [dev]. So if one wants to talk about how to configure their desktop, does (s)he mark that with [dev], or relegate it to the chatter channel to be discussed with opinions of the init system that shall not be mentioned? Neither is completely appropriate or efficient. My daddy always told me that if I'm not part of the solution, I'm part of the problem, so in order to be part of the solution, I make the following pledge to make sure I don't cause or continue conflict or noise on Dng: 1) I will not respond, at least on-list, to any thread discussing the merits or shames of systemd. I will either ignore, respond offlist, or filter and move on. 2) If discussing init systems, I will confine myself to their technicalities and possible concerns about future changes. 3) I will be nice in my on-list responses. 4) Any "don't feed the troll" responses I give will be offlist. Debian separated the user list from the devs, and we all saw where that led. Lets try to make our one and only list a good one for everyone. Steve Steve Litt Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Thu, 9 Apr 2015 05:44:41 +0800 Robert Storey wrote: > Which begs the question: should we just retire the mailing > list(s) and start using the forum? Please dont; with a mailing list one can keep locally the messages that seem interesting, for later reference. If you are dead keen on a forum, at least please go for one of those that are ambivalent, and can be accessed as a forum as well as distribute all postings as emails. Cheers, Ron. -- Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest. -- Mark Twain -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Wed 08 April 2015 23:27:21 Nuno Magalhães wrote: > On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:35 AM, Martijn Dekkers > > This isn't the first call for separate lists, so there clearly is a > > (strong) desire for this from some people. > > Just because some people called for it, doesn't mean they feel > strongly about it. > Again, just being picky. We got #debianfork and #devuan IRC channels for pretty much the same reasons, and it seems it sort of works there. So for ML that would be the natural template to follow. > Oh, holy devs, i intentionally did not put [DEV] in the subject (a > reasonable suggestion if i might add). yes, one of the best suggestions so far. Right after getting a DEV ML for strictly technical topics. /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
Hi, Just me being picky here. On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 5:35 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > The flip side is those that say "don't split the lists" - there again is no > significant cost to subscribing to both both lists, and follow and > participate in both lists if they so wish. It isn't so much a segregation of > a community, it is a segregation of topics - and a long standing, > wide-ranging implementation pattern in the wider open-source community at > that. Maybe i should say "self-segregation" instead. That's my beef, but as you correctly say, anyone can join any list (and leave it too). The «long standing, wide-ranging implementation pattern» thing is a bogus argument. Similar to "Lots of people jump of bridges, care to join them?" > This isn't the first call for separate lists, so there clearly is a (strong) > desire for this from some people. Just because some people called for it, doesn't mean they feel strongly about it. Again, just being picky. Oh, holy devs, i intentionally did not put [DEV] in the subject (a reasonable suggestion if i might add). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Thu 09 April 2015 05:44:41 Robert Storey wrote: > Which begs the question: should we just retire the mailing > list(s) and start using the forum? Real Programmers dont use Forum On a less joking comment: the ML is the medium of choice for serious communication, simply since you don't need a web browser for it, and nobody doing serious work based on - or involving - a communication medium will want to poll a forum 20 times a day for new posts - that's what mail clients got invented for, to start with (well actually POP3 and the clients were first, nonsense like web mailers and fora came later). Thus retiring ML is probably not an option, though of course the decision is up to the developers in the end. Integrating ML and forum afaik never really panned out either, since usually the noise from forum incl the web/URL centric style popular there will poison the ML. Guess why e.g. LKML is no forum, after all those years. Seems ML just work for certain specific use cases. Forum works for other usecases maybe. my 2 €-cent /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
Apollia wrote: > I'm also glad there is a forum: http://talk.devuan.org/ > > I actually prefer forums over mailing lists in general because forums > seem to be more organized, which makes it easier for people to avoid > anything they're uninterested in. I didn't realize we had a forum. And I agree that it would be more organized to post questions/comments that way. Indeed, we could have one section of the forum for developer discussions, one area for general questions, etc. Which begs the question: should we just retire the mailing list(s) and start using the forum? Anyway, now that I know of the forum's existence, I just went and signed up. No posts yet, of course, but when there's an alpha release, I'll be ready to direct my questions there. cheers, Robert ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On 04/08/2015 11:57 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > Rather than dividing the list between developers and users, > it would be better to divide them betwen technical and nontechnical. > *** We could use mailman's topics for that. When you want to talk about development, use the [dev] tag in the Subject, and if you're not interested in anything else, simply subscribe to the [dev] topic and ignore the rest. == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
Rather than dividing the list between developers and users, it would be better to divide them betwen technical and nontechnical. Users are in an intimate relationship with developers (they eat the dogfood, so to speak) and they deserve to remain in communication. But there are many legitimate topics that need discussion but are not technical in nature, such as the logo wars. Presumably Devuan Weekly News would report on both, and be published on both. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
FYI, I've been working on a Discourse instance for Devuan, so that we can have the best of both worlds (email and forum). If this happens, the developers can simply ignore threads they're not interested in and keep focused on work. The forum form is likely to grow beyond what any single person can follow anyway, so I hope the email integration will be good enough for the purpose of replacing the mailing list. Nothing written in stone though, just a general intention. == hk ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
Jude Nelson wrote on 04/07/15 20:04: > > suggest that Pottering is evil, > > > Definitely looking forward to this stopping. Agreed. It accomplishes nothing but heat up the list and add to the static. RE: Development list: Since there is way more general chit-chat, how about having the developers prefix actual dev topics with a [DEV] (or similar) in the subject? General mail tools could filter for that for those who wish. Also, If a [DEV] thread gets off of the original topic, the subject line could have that tag removed by anyone replying. Likewise if a thread _becomes_ a dev topic. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
I would be on both lists Sometimes I enjoy the chatter and sometimes I press delete On Wednesday, April 8, 2015, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > Am Mittwoch, 8. April 2015, 08:09:14 schrieb Robert Storey: > > > Good point. But I thought the reason for the suggestion was because > > > of > > > the amount of fairly useless chatter on this list that the devs have > > > to > > > > wade > > > > > through. (Honestly, it annoys me too.) If there is a -dev list, I > > > would > > sign up > > > > > to see what's happening but it's unlikely I would participate because > > > I'm not really qualified to do so. > > > > All good points. Just want to add though that probably one of the causes > > of all the idle chatter is that we in the audience don't yet have > > Devuan in our hot little hands, so we have no technical questions, no > > bug reports, etc. All we can do for entertainment chat about what > > Richard Stallman thinks of systemd, suggest that Pottering is evil, and > > enquire about when Devuan-alpha will be released. I try to avoid those > > silly discussions, but have occasionally broken down and participated. > > > > Once we have the alpha in our hot little hands, we can begin to discuss > > the real technology, and stop wasting developers' time with trivia. And > > I may finally start my long-awaited project to help writing the > > documentation. > > Seriously? > > Then I´d suggest creating a "I am bored and want to talk about trivia" > kind of mailinglist. Or a course in meditation to be able to deal with > some silence in between. > > I still hardly read the list due for the reasons I already explained which > are similar reasons why I unsubscribed debian-user: The noise to useful > content ratio is so high that I feel it to be like a waste of time to try > to find the interesting messages in between in most threads. > > So for now, I just check, is it Jude posting vdev news, read that, and, > honestly mostly forget about the rest. I can deal with it like that, my > mail program can as well, but this way I may miss some of the mails that > have useful content. > > Heck, I don´t even expect every mail to be useful for me. But a bit better > ratio, that would be good. So please, if you just post here out of > boredom: > > Stop! > > And use your boredom as a chance for personal development. > > Thanks, > -- > Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de > GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
Am Mittwoch, 8. April 2015, 08:09:14 schrieb Robert Storey: > > Good point. But I thought the reason for the suggestion was because > > of > > the amount of fairly useless chatter on this list that the devs have > > to > > wade > > > through. (Honestly, it annoys me too.) If there is a -dev list, I > > would > sign up > > > to see what's happening but it's unlikely I would participate because > > I'm not really qualified to do so. > > All good points. Just want to add though that probably one of the causes > of all the idle chatter is that we in the audience don't yet have > Devuan in our hot little hands, so we have no technical questions, no > bug reports, etc. All we can do for entertainment chat about what > Richard Stallman thinks of systemd, suggest that Pottering is evil, and > enquire about when Devuan-alpha will be released. I try to avoid those > silly discussions, but have occasionally broken down and participated. > > Once we have the alpha in our hot little hands, we can begin to discuss > the real technology, and stop wasting developers' time with trivia. And > I may finally start my long-awaited project to help writing the > documentation. Seriously? Then I´d suggest creating a "I am bored and want to talk about trivia" kind of mailinglist. Or a course in meditation to be able to deal with some silence in between. I still hardly read the list due for the reasons I already explained which are similar reasons why I unsubscribed debian-user: The noise to useful content ratio is so high that I feel it to be like a waste of time to try to find the interesting messages in between in most threads. So for now, I just check, is it Jude posting vdev news, read that, and, honestly mostly forget about the rest. I can deal with it like that, my mail program can as well, but this way I may miss some of the mails that have useful content. Heck, I don´t even expect every mail to be useful for me. But a bit better ratio, that would be good. So please, if you just post here out of boredom: Stop! And use your boredom as a chance for personal development. Thanks, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 8:09 PM, Robert Storey wrote: > >> Good point. But I thought the reason for the suggestion was because of >> the amount of fairly useless chatter on this list that the devs have to >> wade >> through. (Honestly, it annoys me too.) Sorry if I added to anyone's annoyance! I mistakenly thought there probably already was a dev-only list somewhere. And also, the bottom of the front page of http://devuan.org/ says this list is the "General discussion" list, which I assumed meant not-so-technical discussion was fine too, especially since I saw various non-technical discussions already occurring. I like the idea of a dev list, but I also like the idea of there being a place for general discussions too, so devs and ordinary users can all interact if we wish. I'm also glad there is a forum: http://talk.devuan.org/ I actually prefer forums over mailing lists in general because forums seem to be more organized, which makes it easier for people to avoid anything they're uninterested in. Perhaps I'll post there more than here in the future. >> If there is a -dev list, I would >> sign up >> to see what's happening Me too. >> but it's unlikely I would participate because I'm >> not really qualified to do so. Same here, even though I can program a bit, and am learning more all the time. > All good points. Just want to add though that probably one of the causes of > all the idle chatter is that we in the audience don't yet have Devuan in our > hot little hands, so we have no technical questions, no bug reports, etc. > All we can do for entertainment chat about what Richard Stallman thinks of > systemd, suggest that Pottering is evil, and enquire about when Devuan-alpha > will be released. I try to avoid those silly discussions, but have > occasionally broken down and participated. I don't feel _too_ guilty about having participated in non-technical discussions here, since this _is_ described on the front page of http://devuan.org/ as the "General discussion" list. But, again, I apologize if I annoyed anyone - even though as far as I know, none of the discussions lately broke any official rules. And, sorry if I'm mistaken and if any of the discussions actually did break some rules I didn't know about. > Once we have the alpha in our hot little hands, we can begin to discuss the > real technology, Yes, I look forward to that. :-) > and stop wasting developers' time with trivia. And I may > finally start my long-awaited project to help writing the documentation. > > cheers, > Robert I hope I'll be able to make myself useful too somehow. Best wishes, Apollia ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
All good points. However, having a -dev list really does have some significant benefits. - Firstly, as already mentioned, it allows for the chatter to be separated from the work. - Secondly, it allows for aggregating commit and update messages from gitlab, jenkins, the infrastructure at large etc. which will be simply noise to most of the non-devs. - Thirdly, nobody is barred from joining the dev list if they want to keep up to date with the technical minutiae should they want to. Personally, my view is that there is no cost or significant effort to the project for splitting to -dev and -user. Those who are not interested in either of these lists don't have to subscribe, and don't have to deal with whatever it is they don't want to deal with. Gentle moderation becomes possible. "systemd is evil"? "debian sucks"? "I don't know how to configure my WLAN card I bought on a flea market in Morocco 15 years ago for 2 Euro"? - take it to -user. The flip side is those that say "don't split the lists" - there again is no significant cost to subscribing to both both lists, and follow and participate in both lists if they so wish. It isn't so much a segregation of a community, it is a segregation of topics - and a long standing, wide-ranging implementation pattern in the wider open-source community at that. This isn't the first call for separate lists, so there clearly is a (strong) desire for this from some people. Given that there is neither a cost nor an insurmountable issue with doing so, it is hard to see why not. On 8 April 2015 at 04:04, Jude Nelson wrote: > > suggest that Pottering is evil, >> > > Definitely looking forward to this stopping. Seriously, it's not > Lennart's fault that Debian decided to switch to systemd. If you want to > blame anyone for this, blame the CTTE, the DDs who voted against init > freedom in the GR, and the systemd fanbois who poisoned the well on the > discussion. > > Neither Lennart, Red Hat, nor systemd drove me to Devuan. The Debian > leadership and the greater Debian community did. > > -Jude > > >> >> >> ___ >> Dng mailing list >> Dng@lists.dyne.org >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng >> >> > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
> suggest that Pottering is evil, > Definitely looking forward to this stopping. Seriously, it's not Lennart's fault that Debian decided to switch to systemd. If you want to blame anyone for this, blame the CTTE, the DDs who voted against init freedom in the GR, and the systemd fanbois who poisoned the well on the discussion. Neither Lennart, Red Hat, nor systemd drove me to Devuan. The Debian leadership and the greater Debian community did. -Jude > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
> Good point. But I thought the reason for the suggestion was because of > the amount of fairly useless chatter on this list that the devs have to wade > through. (Honestly, it annoys me too.) If there is a -dev list, I would sign up > to see what's happening but it's unlikely I would participate because I'm > not really qualified to do so. All good points. Just want to add though that probably one of the causes of all the idle chatter is that we in the audience don't yet have Devuan in our hot little hands, so we have no technical questions, no bug reports, etc. All we can do for entertainment chat about what Richard Stallman thinks of systemd, suggest that Pottering is evil, and enquire about when Devuan-alpha will be released. I try to avoid those silly discussions, but have occasionally broken down and participated. Once we have the alpha in our hot little hands, we can begin to discuss the real technology, and stop wasting developers' time with trivia. And I may finally start my long-awaited project to help writing the documentation. cheers, Robert ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Wed 08 April 2015 01:45:20 Jürgen Buchmüller wrote: > I'd love to see ancient, unwritten, yet useful rules being adhered to on > Quote relevant parts of the original message. Cut out irrelevant stuff. +: Use proper > quotes; no TOFU and no HTML, ever ta! /j signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
Am Dienstag, den 07.04.2015, 20:19 +0100 schrieb Nuno Magalhães: > I disagree, this will mean the devs will self-segregate and tend to > ignore users. > Having "both camps" in the same list evens each other out. I'd love to see ancient, unwritten, yet useful rules being adhered to on this list then. In case they were forgotten: Quote relevant parts of the original message. Cut out irrelevant stuff. And in general K.I.S.S. = keep it short and simple. My .02 whatever Jürgen ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 13:09:55 -0700 Go Linux wrote: > On Tue, 4/7/15, Nuno Magalhães wrote: > > Subject: Re: [Dng] dev-list > To: "dng" > Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2015, 2:19 PM > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Martijn Dekkers > wrote: > > I know this has come up a few times in the past, but I would really > > like to see a dev specific list, with some strict "dev-only" rules. > > I disagree, this will mean the devs will self-segregate and tend to > ignore users. > Having "both camps" in the same list evens each other out. > > > > Good point. But I thought the reason for the suggestion was because > of the amount of fairly useless chatter on this list that the devs > have to wade through. (Honestly, it annoys me too.) If there is a > -dev list, I would sign up to see what's happening but it's unlikely > I would participate because I'm not really qualified to do so. > > golinux I agree with nuno in that segregating leads to disconnect. Like that which we saw recently in the Debian community. I agree with golinux that there's been too much chatter with too much heat. I'll try very hard to keep my responses to hot topics and/or settled law offlist, and if necessary, simply filter to /dev/null those who repeatedly tempt me to negatively impact the list. And I'm sorry for the part I played in the recent hot topic, and will redouble my efforts to stay out of stuff like that. SteveT Steve Litt Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting http://www.troubleshooters.com/28 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 01:09:55PM -0700, Go Linux wrote: > On Tue, 4/7/15, Nuno Magalhães wrote: > > Subject: Re: [Dng] dev-list > To: "dng" > Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2015, 2:19 PM > > On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Martijn Dekkers > wrote: > > I know this has come up a few times in the past, but I would really like to > > see a dev specific list, with some strict "dev-only" rules. > > I disagree, this will mean the devs will self-segregate and tend to > ignore users. > Having "both camps" in the same list evens each other out. > > > > Good point. But I thought the reason for the suggestion was because of the > amount of fairly useless chatter on this list that the devs have to wade > through. (Honestly, it annoys me too.) If there is a -dev list, I would > sign up to see what's happening but it's unlikely I would participate because > I'm not really qualified to do so. > > golinux A techical problem is that when I registered this list with gmane, they decided not to call it gmane.inux.devuan.dev instead of gmane.linux.devuan.dng, which I had requested. Some renaming would have to be done. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Tue, 4/7/15, Nuno Magalhães wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] dev-list To: "dng" Date: Tuesday, April 7, 2015, 2:19 PM On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > I know this has come up a few times in the past, but I would really like to > see a dev specific list, with some strict "dev-only" rules. I disagree, this will mean the devs will self-segregate and tend to ignore users. Having "both camps" in the same list evens each other out. Good point. But I thought the reason for the suggestion was because of the amount of fairly useless chatter on this list that the devs have to wade through. (Honestly, it annoys me too.) If there is a -dev list, I would sign up to see what's happening but it's unlikely I would participate because I'm not really qualified to do so. golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 7:25 AM, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > I know this has come up a few times in the past, but I would really like to > see a dev specific list, with some strict "dev-only" rules. I disagree, this will mean the devs will self-segregate and tend to ignore users. Having "both camps" in the same list evens each other out. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
awesome, many thanks! On 7 April 2015 at 14:11, Jaromil wrote: > On Tue, 07 Apr 2015, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > > >we could perhaps tie the dev list in with notifications from jenkins, > >gitlab etc to give a good general overview of whats moving > > ok, but please keep patient a little while more because the preparations > of the alpha release are in the way, once that is out we'll create a > dev-list. tilt has already helped to setup a listserver... > > ciao > > > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Tue, 07 Apr 2015, Martijn Dekkers wrote: >we could perhaps tie the dev list in with notifications from jenkins, >gitlab etc to give a good general overview of whats moving ok, but please keep patient a little while more because the preparations of the alpha release are in the way, once that is out we'll create a dev-list. tilt has already helped to setup a listserver... ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
we could perhaps tie the dev list in with notifications from jenkins, gitlab etc to give a good general overview of whats moving On 7 April 2015 at 09:45, Franco Lanza wrote: > On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 09:25:47AM +0300, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I know this has come up a few times in the past, but I would really like > to > > see a dev specific list, with some strict "dev-only" rules. The > > Drama-to-Noise ratio is getting pretty high pretty frequently, and IRC > just > > doesn't work for many people. > > > > pretty-please? I am happy to donate time, effort and infrastructure to > make > > this happen. > > > > Thanks > > I agree, in fact i don't post a lot here cause there are too non-dev > related threads and i'm all with my head and my hands on working on > infrastructure and code now, so, maybe a specific list strictly dev > related only can be a good idea at this point > > > -- > > Franco (nextime) Lanza > Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy > SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it > web: http://www.nexlab.net > > NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org > you can download my public key at: > http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers > Key ID = D6132D50 > Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 > --- > echo > 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq > | dc > --- > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] dev-list
On Tue, Apr 07, 2015 at 09:25:47AM +0300, Martijn Dekkers wrote: > Hi, > > I know this has come up a few times in the past, but I would really like to > see a dev specific list, with some strict "dev-only" rules. The > Drama-to-Noise ratio is getting pretty high pretty frequently, and IRC just > doesn't work for many people. > > pretty-please? I am happy to donate time, effort and infrastructure to make > this happen. > > Thanks I agree, in fact i don't post a lot here cause there are too non-dev related threads and i'm all with my head and my hands on working on infrastructure and code now, so, maybe a specific list strictly dev related only can be a good idea at this point -- Franco (nextime) Lanza Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy SIP://c...@casa.nexlab.it web: http://www.nexlab.net NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org you can download my public key at: http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers Key ID = D6132D50 Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50 --- echo 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq | dc --- signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] dev-list
Hi, I know this has come up a few times in the past, but I would really like to see a dev specific list, with some strict "dev-only" rules. The Drama-to-Noise ratio is getting pretty high pretty frequently, and IRC just doesn't work for many people. pretty-please? I am happy to donate time, effort and infrastructure to make this happen. Thanks ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
