Re: [DNG] RMS: was Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks

[m712]

On November 5, 2017 12:16:53 AM GMT+03:00, Adam Borowski  
wrote:
>On Sat, Nov 04, 2017 at 05:29:00PM +, Simon Hobson wrote:
>
>> his very rigid attitude to freedom in software
>
>I'd prefer if this attitude was more rigid.
>
>For example, AGPL -- even worse as GPL-3 allows an "upgrade" to this
>non-free crock.  It breaks FSF Freedom 0 "the freedom to use for any
>purpose": you can't take any code from an AGPLed project and use it
>within
>any networked scenario that doesn't provide a way to advertise the
>source,
>such as an IMAP server, a wifi-connected lift control (visit Google's
>offices in Zurich and they'll mention this every time), or a light
>dimmer.
>How do you propose the interface in the last case to be?  "Raise your
>hand
>to turn light on, lower it to turn off, hop to recite the source"?
You do realize that the source only has to be made available by the 
manufacturer, right? You can also create an extension API to add your 
proprietary code AFAIK. Just put a sticker "for source code, visit 
https://chingchong.co.hk/gpl/; for the light dimmer.
>AGPL also breaks DFSG Dissident Test: take a blogging platform, which
>has
>two tiers of users: your dissident friends who send secret
>steganographic
>messages, and regular bloggers whose content unknowingly gets some HTML
>tags
>reordered to smuggle those secret messages.  AGPL would require
>revealing
>the secret, regular GPL doesn't endanger you in any way (only the
>fellow
>dissidents who need an encoder/decoder receive its sources).
Use an API.
>Or, GFDL.  Besides obviously non-free immutable sections and front/back
>covers (which don't even allow you to correct an error, remove "Ode to
>Hitler" a previous maintainer add, etc), GFDL even disallows chmod -r
>or
>locking the door to your server room.  A key might be 5000 years old
>technology but is still technology.
Nobody tells you to make the server ssh-accessible publicly. The only 
additional necessity of the AGPL license over GPL is that if you made 
modifications to the server source code, you must release them as well. It's 
not everyone's cup of tea, but personally I prefer it. In fact, the source code 
of Blazechan (the imageboard software I'm currently working on, check sig) is 
AGPLv3.

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Re: [DNG] RMS: was Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks

[m712]

On November 4, 2017 8:29:00 PM GMT+03:00, Simon Hobson  
wrote:
>m712  wrote:
>
>> I'd really like to meet Richard Stallman in person.  I hope I can,
>someday.
>
>I've met him briefly when he did a speaking tour in the UK.
>He has a reputation for being direct and taking questions literally -
>and that's how I found him. I assume it's just the way he is, some of
>us are like that. I think that's part of the reason many people
>"dislike" him - if you don't recognise that he's just being direct,
>some mike mistake it for rudeness.
I am also like that, I like to be blunt people. I also only use free software, 
so I think we'd be good buddies ;-)
>But regardless of what you think of him, and his very rigid attitude to
>freedom in software, without him (and others with similar views) we
>certainly would not be where we are now.
I do not doubt that. I have an immense amount of respect for the GNU Project 
and the FSF. One of my life goals is to get hired at FSF, in fact.

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Re: [DNG] RMS: was Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks

[Alessandro Selli]

On Sat, 4 Nov 2017 at 22:16:53 +0100
Adam Borowski  wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 04, 2017 at 05:29:00PM +, Simon Hobson wrote:
>
>> his very rigid attitude to freedom in software  
>
> I'd prefer if this attitude was more rigid.
>
> For example, AGPL -- even worse as GPL-3 allows an "upgrade" to this
> non-free crock.  It breaks FSF Freedom 0 "the freedom to use for any
> purpose": you can't take any code from an AGPLed project and use it within
> any networked scenario that doesn't provide a way to advertise the source,
> such as an IMAP server, a wifi-connected lift control

  Source distribution constraints do not have to do with purpose of use.

[...]

> GFDL even disallows chmod -r or
> locking the door to your server room.  A key might be 5000 years old
> technology but is still technology.

  ?
  What do file permissions, server rooms, doors and locks have to do about
documentation and licenses?


Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] RMS: was Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks

[Adam Borowski]

On Sat, Nov 04, 2017 at 05:29:00PM +, Simon Hobson wrote:

> his very rigid attitude to freedom in software

I'd prefer if this attitude was more rigid.

For example, AGPL -- even worse as GPL-3 allows an "upgrade" to this
non-free crock.  It breaks FSF Freedom 0 "the freedom to use for any
purpose": you can't take any code from an AGPLed project and use it within
any networked scenario that doesn't provide a way to advertise the source,
such as an IMAP server, a wifi-connected lift control (visit Google's
offices in Zurich and they'll mention this every time), or a light dimmer.
How do you propose the interface in the last case to be?  "Raise your hand
to turn light on, lower it to turn off, hop to recite the source"?
AGPL also breaks DFSG Dissident Test: take a blogging platform, which has
two tiers of users: your dissident friends who send secret steganographic
messages, and regular bloggers whose content unknowingly gets some HTML tags
reordered to smuggle those secret messages.  AGPL would require revealing
the secret, regular GPL doesn't endanger you in any way (only the fellow
dissidents who need an encoder/decoder receive its sources).

Or, GFDL.  Besides obviously non-free immutable sections and front/back
covers (which don't even allow you to correct an error, remove "Ode to
Hitler" a previous maintainer add, etc), GFDL even disallows chmod -r or
locking the door to your server room.  A key might be 5000 years old
technology but is still technology.

> without him (and others with similar views) we certainly would not be
> where we are now.

Hell yeah.  Despite some flaws, he's one of greatest heroes we have.


Meow!
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⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Laws we want back: Poland, Dz.U. 1921 nr.30 poz.177 (also Dz.U. 
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ 1920 nr.11 poz.61): Art.2: An official, guilty of accepting a gift
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ or another material benefit, or a promise thereof, [in matters
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Re: [DNG] RMS: was Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks

[Rick Moen]

Quoting zap (calmst...@posteo.de):

> Indeed! Without him who knows if the free software movement even would
> have started, let alone be as successful as it is...
> 
> I may disagree on his views with certain things, but software freedom I
> most definitely agree with him on for most things.

When Richard was due to visit my then-firm Linuxcare in 1999, I 
explained him to our sales staff (in an e-mail), by quoting George
Bernard Shaw's famous quip:  'The reasonable man adapts himself to the
world:  the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to
himself.  Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.'

(This was one of Shaw's Maxims for Revlutionists in his play _Man and
Superman_, http://www.bartleby.com/157/6.html .)

-- 
Cheers,"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes
Rick Moen  to be true he generally believes to be true."
r...@linuxmafia.com-- Demosthenes, Third Olynthiac, sct. 19 (349 BCE)
McQ! (4x80)
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Re: [DNG] RMS: was Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks

[zap]

> I've met him briefly when he did a speaking tour in the UK.
> He has a reputation for being direct and taking questions literally - and 
> that's how I found him. I assume it's just the way he is, some of us are like 
> that. I think that's part of the reason many people "dislike" him - if you 
> don't recognise that he's just being direct, some mike mistake it for 
> rudeness.
>
> But regardless of what you think of him, and his very rigid attitude to 
> freedom in software, without him (and others with similar views) we certainly 
> would not be where we are now.
Indeed! Without him who knows if the free software movement even would
have started, let alone be as successful as it is...

I may disagree on his views with certain things, but software freedom I
most definitely agree with him on for most things.



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Re: [DNG] RMS: was Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks

[Simon Hobson]

m712  wrote:

> I'd really like to meet Richard Stallman in person.  I hope I can, someday.

I've met him briefly when he did a speaking tour in the UK.
He has a reputation for being direct and taking questions literally - and 
that's how I found him. I assume it's just the way he is, some of us are like 
that. I think that's part of the reason many people "dislike" him - if you 
don't recognise that he's just being direct, some mike mistake it for rudeness.

But regardless of what you think of him, and his very rigid attitude to freedom 
in software, without him (and others with similar views) we certainly would not 
be where we are now.

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Re: [DNG] RMS: was Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks

[m712]

On 11/04/2017 02:09 AM, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
>
>>> I sometimes have Richard Stallman as a house guest, 
>> Walk on egg shells much?
> Seriously, Richard Stallman is a gracious and pleasant guest.
> He's also extremely funny.
>
> I was at a Chinese restaurant with him once, and decided to try to yank
> his chain:  'Richand, I hope you don't take offence that I'm a vi user.'
> (He'd seen me doing split-screen editing and was wondering if that was
> an Emacs configuration; I took some small delight in revealing that it
> was vim.)  He fired right back with a smile:  'We of the Church of Emacs
> don't consider use of vi a sin, but rather penance.'
>
> Touché!
>
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I'd really like to meet Richard Stallman in person.  I hope I can, someday.

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Re: [DNG] RMS: was Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks

[Dr. Nikolaus Klepp]

Am Samstag, 4. November 2017 schrieb John Hughes:
> 
> On 03/11/17 21:08, J. Fahrner wrote:
> >
> > Windows NT is based on DEC VMS, not a very modern OS ;-)
> 
> I.E. more "modern" than Unix.
> 
> Being "modern" is not always a good thing.  I'd have assumed that wasn't 
> a controversial idea around here.

"modern" has two meanings in german: "modern" as "fancy new", and "modern" as 
"rotting" :-)

Nik
 



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Re: [DNG] RMS: was Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks

[Didier Kryn]

Le 04/11/2017 à 00:35, John Hughes a écrit :
Being "modern" is not always a good thing.  I'd have assumed that 
wasn't a controversial idea around here.


    Regression is often saled in the name of modernity, for hiden 
political reasons.



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Re: [DNG] RMS: was Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks

[Alessandro Selli]

On Fri, 3 Nov 2017 at 20:58:24 +0100
Edward Bartolo  wrote:

> I know little about this Hurd 'little' thing, but it gives me the
> shivers like systemd. Similar to the latter, there is a small core at
> the centre with all the other helper executables intercommunicating.
> Sounds too complicated to get the added advantage, of having a very
> minimal kernel running with root privileges, while all other helper
> executables that do not need root privileges, run with a lesser
> priviledge.
> 
> If I am remember well, MS Windows (the operating system) does have a
> micro-kernel, but is it more efficient with an extra layer of
> intercommunication?

  A microkernel architecture makes it easier replacing one of it's peripheral
modules or even the core with another one, which is a boon for people wishing
to customise their OS down to the guts.  A big, monolithic kernel is more
difficult to change, as an even small change in a place could entail
adjustments in several other places with unexpected results.  Hurd is the
extension to the kernel of the Unix principle: "have several small components
do specific, simple tasks and combine them together to perform complex
tasks."
  On the other hand, microkernel architectures make intercommunication of
it's peripheral components between themselves and the core more difficult to
synchronise and attune for best efficiency and to avoid bottlenecks and
stalemates.


Alessandro
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Re: [DNG] RMS: was Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks

[zap]

> I.E. more "modern" than Unix.
>
> Being "modern" is not always a good thing.  I'd have assumed that
> wasn't a controversial idea around here.
>
You are talking sense, yes modern is very often bad alas...
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Re: [DNG] RMS: was Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks

[John Hughes]

On 03/11/17 20:58, Edward Bartolo wrote:

I know little about this Hurd 'little' thing, but it gives me the
shivers like systemd.


Ah.  "I know little about it but I don't like it".


Similar to the latter, there is a small core at the centre with all
the other helper executables intercommunicating.


What?  I thought the criticism of systemd was that it was monolithic and 
it's "core" was too large!



Sounds too complicated to get the added advantage, of having a very
minimal kernel running with root privileges, while all other helper
executables that do not need root privileges, run with a lesser
priviledge.


Huh?  Are you against the idea or the implementation?



If I am remember well, MS Windows (the operating system) does have a
micro-kernel, but is it more efficient with an extra layer of
intercommunication?


In general the idea with microkernels is security and reliability, not 
performance -- microkernel boosters will generally handwave and claim 
the inefficiency is worth it and small anyway.


Before writing them off as fools don't forget that MacOS/iOS uses a 
microkernel (famously one of the biggest/slowest).




I will stay with Linux, even though it is a huge monolithic executable.


Like systemd?


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Re: [DNG] RMS: was Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks

[John Hughes]

On 03/11/17 21:08, J. Fahrner wrote:


Windows NT is based on DEC VMS, not a very modern OS ;-)


I.E. more "modern" than Unix.

Being "modern" is not always a good thing.  I'd have assumed that wasn't 
a controversial idea around here.


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Re: [DNG] RMS: was Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> > I sometimes have Richard Stallman as a house guest, 
> 
> Walk on egg shells much?

Seriously, Richard Stallman is a gracious and pleasant guest.
He's also extremely funny.

I was at a Chinese restaurant with him once, and decided to try to yank
his chain:  'Richand, I hope you don't take offence that I'm a vi user.'
(He'd seen me doing split-screen editing and was wondering if that was
an Emacs configuration; I took some small delight in revealing that it
was vim.)  He fired right back with a smile:  'We of the Church of Emacs
don't consider use of vi a sin, but rather penance.'

Touché!

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Re: [DNG] RMS: was Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

If I am remember well, MS Windows (the operating system) does have a
micro-kernel, but is it more efficient with an extra layer of
intercommunication?


Windows NT is based on DEC VMS, not a very modern OS ;-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Cutler


Based on VMS, right, like Linux is based on Multics ;)

Seriously, efficiency isn't the prime consideration for microkernels. 
Reliable performance is a better key term.


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] RMS: was Google abandons UEFI in Chromebooks

[J. Fahrner]

Am 2017-11-03 20:58, schrieb Edward Bartolo:


If I am remember well, MS Windows (the operating system) does have a
micro-kernel, but is it more efficient with an extra layer of
intercommunication?


Windows NT is based on DEC VMS, not a very modern OS ;-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Cutler

Jochen
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