Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Wiki cleanup

[Kenneth Hanson]

On Fri, Nov 10, 2017 at 6:39 PM, Sophie  wrote:

> I don't know if it's still true for en_US help, but by the past, the
> *files* contained links to the how-to and to the Calc functions.


 By files, do you mean the in program help files?

Olivier
> should have more info about it, but maybe there is a need to check if
> links are still pointing to the good page?
>

I found at least one bad link on the help wiki
https://help.libreoffice.org/Calc/Statistical_Functions_Part_Two.

Some wiki pages were under "How Tos" and others under "HowTo". I merged
everything under "HowTo", but this one links to a page under "How Tos", so
now it gets redirected.

--Kenneth

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Wiki cleanup

[Sophie]

Hi Kenneth,
Le 10/11/2017 à 07:16, Kenneth Hanson a écrit :
> I've gone ahead with option #1: user docs are categorized as
> "Documentation", following precedent. I haven't yet touched the doc dev
> pages.
> 
> I've found quite a few orphaned pages (no incoming links), old pages, and
> stubs, which I've categorized. You can look at the documentation category
> page to get a feel for what kinds of things are floating around. Most
> notable among these are the "HowTo" pages, which I moved into a common
> hierarchy like the FAQ pages, put in a subcategory of the same name.

I don't know if it's still true for en_US help, but by the past, the
files contained links to the how-to and to the Calc functions. Olivier
should have more info about it, but maybe there is a need to check if
links are still pointing to the good page?

Cheers
Sophie

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IRC: sophi
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The Document Foundation

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Wiki cleanup

[Kenneth Hanson]

I've gone ahead with option #1: user docs are categorized as
"Documentation", following precedent. I haven't yet touched the doc dev
pages.

I've found quite a few orphaned pages (no incoming links), old pages, and
stubs, which I've categorized. You can look at the documentation category
page to get a feel for what kinds of things are floating around. Most
notable among these are the "HowTo" pages, which I moved into a common
hierarchy like the FAQ pages, put in a subcategory of the same name.

--Kenneth

On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 11:02 PM, Kenneth Hanson 
wrote:

> Hello all.
>
> I'm continuing to work a bit on the wiki, now focusing on organizing user
> docs. For a refresher, see what I wrote in August: https://wiki.
> documentfoundation.org/User:Khanson679/Wiki_cleanup
>
> I haven't gotten much input on this issue, but I'm now leaning against
> moving all such pages under a common parent page. For now at least, I'd
> like to just add them to a proper category, such as "User Documentation".
>
> So, I'd really like to solve the category naming issue for user
> documentation vs documentation development. I see three basic possibilities:
> 1. "Documentation" for user docs, something else for documentation
> development
> 2. "Documentation" for documentation development, something else for user
> docs
> 3. Explicit names for both
>
> Note: One person (wiki username Jumbo444) mentioned
>  that there is a
> third logical category, docs for developers, QA, L10n, etc.). They point to
> the French documentation wiki page, which divides its links that way. I
> think this is good idea, but more of a presentation issue -- that is, I
> don't think it would do much good to create a supercategory containing all
> of these.
>
> (1) might be the most straightforward and understandable for most people.
> There seems to be somewhat of a preexisting custom of marking user docs as
> "Documentation". In this case, it would be natural for documentation
> development to be a subcategory.
>
> (2) might better parallel the structure of other parts of the wiki, in
> that "Marketing" is pages for the marketing team, etc. But it also might be
> confusing.
>
> (3) is, well, the most explicit. Presumably both would be subcategories of
> "Documentation".
>
> I can imagine people continuing to use "Documentation" for user docs by
> mistake in cases (2) and (3), but perhaps this is just me.
>
> Any opinions? Any other considerations?
>
> --Kenneth
>
> On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 1:35 PM, Kenneth Hanson 
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 5:21 PM, Dave  wrote:
>>
>>> In this context it would be sufficient
>>> to post a notification of the intended changes to this list and if no
>>> objections/alternatives are put forward within a reasonable period of
>>> time, then go ahead.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for clarifying. This sounds reasonable. I also have a better feel
>> now for what kinds of edits can be considered minor, and what things would
>> be better to check on first.
>>
>>
>>> This approach would have avoided the situation with
>>> the FR FAQ being moved on the wiki, since Sophie could have pointed out
>>> the potential problem Kenneth had not foreseen and saved additional
>>> unnecessary work.
>>>
>>
>> I think it's worth mentioning here that it wasn't so much the fact that I
>> moved the pages, as it was that I screwed up the move in such a way that
>> Wikimedia won't let me undo it. In other words, it was a technical problem
>> that I don't think anyone would have forseen.
>>
>> Because no one has yet fixed this or given me the ability to do so, I
>> still don't know whether the redirects would be okay if the pages had been
>> moved as intended.
>>
>> Nonetheless, I will still be more careful now that I understand
>> Wikimedia's limitations.
>>
>> --Kenneth
>>
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Wiki cleanup

[Kenneth Hanson]

Hello all.

I'm continuing to work a bit on the wiki, now focusing on organizing user
docs. For a refresher, see what I wrote in August:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/User:Khanson679/Wiki_cleanup

I haven't gotten much input on this issue, but I'm now leaning against
moving all such pages under a common parent page. For now at least, I'd
like to just add them to a proper category, such as "User Documentation".

So, I'd really like to solve the category naming issue for user
documentation vs documentation development. I see three basic possibilities:
1. "Documentation" for user docs, something else for documentation
development
2. "Documentation" for documentation development, something else for user
docs
3. Explicit names for both

Note: One person (wiki username Jumbo444) mentioned
 that there is a
third logical category, docs for developers, QA, L10n, etc.). They point to
the French documentation wiki page, which divides its links that way. I
think this is good idea, but more of a presentation issue -- that is, I
don't think it would do much good to create a supercategory containing all
of these.

(1) might be the most straightforward and understandable for most people.
There seems to be somewhat of a preexisting custom of marking user docs as
"Documentation". In this case, it would be natural for documentation
development to be a subcategory.

(2) might better parallel the structure of other parts of the wiki, in that
"Marketing" is pages for the marketing team, etc. But it also might be
confusing.

(3) is, well, the most explicit. Presumably both would be subcategories of
"Documentation".

I can imagine people continuing to use "Documentation" for user docs by
mistake in cases (2) and (3), but perhaps this is just me.

Any opinions? Any other considerations?

--Kenneth

On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 1:35 PM, Kenneth Hanson 
wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 5:21 PM, Dave  wrote:
>
>> In this context it would be sufficient
>> to post a notification of the intended changes to this list and if no
>> objections/alternatives are put forward within a reasonable period of
>> time, then go ahead.
>>
>
> Thanks for clarifying. This sounds reasonable. I also have a better feel
> now for what kinds of edits can be considered minor, and what things would
> be better to check on first.
>
>
>> This approach would have avoided the situation with
>> the FR FAQ being moved on the wiki, since Sophie could have pointed out
>> the potential problem Kenneth had not foreseen and saved additional
>> unnecessary work.
>>
>
> I think it's worth mentioning here that it wasn't so much the fact that I
> moved the pages, as it was that I screwed up the move in such a way that
> Wikimedia won't let me undo it. In other words, it was a technical problem
> that I don't think anyone would have forseen.
>
> Because no one has yet fixed this or given me the ability to do so, I
> still don't know whether the redirects would be okay if the pages had been
> moved as intended.
>
> Nonetheless, I will still be more careful now that I understand
> Wikimedia's limitations.
>
> --Kenneth
>

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Wiki cleanup

[Dave]

On 16.08.2017 03:20, jonathon wrote:
> On 08/15/2017 09:37 AM, Dave wrote:
> 
>> While your interest in the documentation wiki is appreciated, have you
> 
> This was a task that sorely needed doing.

True that the documentation section of the wiki was/is in need of some
attention, no more than other sections and in most instances Kenneth's
changes have IMO been worthwhile improvements.

> Furthermore, it is easier to make the desired changes, and revert/modify
> later, than try to gain some type of consensus, prior to doing them.

The JDI policy may not always the best approach and reversions take more
time than a simple notification. Maybe your interpretation of the term
"consensus" is different to mine. In this context it would be sufficient
to post a notification of the intended changes to this list and if no
objections/alternatives are put forward within a reasonable period of
time, then go ahead. This approach would have avoided the situation with
the FR FAQ being moved on the wiki, since Sophie could have pointed out
the potential problem Kenneth had not foreseen and saved additional
unnecessary work.

> jonathon

Regards
Dave

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Wiki cleanup

[Kenneth Hanson]

One more thought. I have sort of been hoping for more input that I've got
until now. There hasn't been any comment on the issue of user docs / doc
team pages, as well as several later queries. My progress reports are also
an implicit call for feedback. So I'll make it explicit: Any ideas?

--Kenneth

On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 8:02 PM, Kenneth Hanson 
wrote:

> Well, my assumption has been that these changes shouldn't be
> controversial, but can be reverted if necessary, or corrected by others
> that know better.
>
> Perhaps it would be better to propose changes in advance, just in case. At
> the same time, I'm under a time crunch to finish this during summer
> vacation while I have the time and attention to wrap my head around all of
> it...
>
> Anyway, consider today's additions to the talk page my proposal for how to
> proceed from here.
>
> --Kenneth
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 6:37 PM, Dave  wrote:
>
>> On 15.08.2017 11:19, Kenneth Hanson wrote:
>> > Update: I've rewritten Documentation/Development, integrating the
>> contents
>> > of Documentation/Easy_Hacks (most of which wasn't, in fact, easy hacks)
>> and
>> > splitting the detailed guides instructions and wish list off into new
>> pages.
>> >
>> > I also edited the guides instructions a bit, but I haven't touched the
>> wish
>> > list yet. Some further refinements might be in order once I address the
>> > latter.
>> >
>> > I've added some todos to
>> > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Talk:Documentation, if anyone else
>> > would like to help. This is in addition to my previously written notes
>> > about the organization of user pages and doc team pages.
>> >
>> > --Kenneth
>>
>> While your interest in the documentation wiki is appreciated, have you
>> considered seeking the consensus of other documentation contributors
>> before making these changes?
>>
>> Dave
>> --
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>>
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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Wiki cleanup

[Kenneth Hanson]

Well, my assumption has been that these changes shouldn't be controversial,
but can be reverted if necessary, or corrected by others that know better.

Perhaps it would be better to propose changes in advance, just in case. At
the same time, I'm under a time crunch to finish this during summer
vacation while I have the time and attention to wrap my head around all of
it...

Anyway, consider today's additions to the talk page my proposal for how to
proceed from here.

--Kenneth

On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 6:37 PM, Dave  wrote:

> On 15.08.2017 11:19, Kenneth Hanson wrote:
> > Update: I've rewritten Documentation/Development, integrating the
> contents
> > of Documentation/Easy_Hacks (most of which wasn't, in fact, easy hacks)
> and
> > splitting the detailed guides instructions and wish list off into new
> pages.
> >
> > I also edited the guides instructions a bit, but I haven't touched the
> wish
> > list yet. Some further refinements might be in order once I address the
> > latter.
> >
> > I've added some todos to
> > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Talk:Documentation, if anyone else
> > would like to help. This is in addition to my previously written notes
> > about the organization of user pages and doc team pages.
> >
> > --Kenneth
>
> While your interest in the documentation wiki is appreciated, have you
> considered seeking the consensus of other documentation contributors
> before making these changes?
>
> Dave
> --
> Please address any reply to the mailing list only. Any messages sent to
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> never be read.
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Wiki cleanup

[Olivier Hallot]

Hi Kenneth

Em 05/08/2017 19:26, Kenneth Hanson escreveu:
> Olivier,
> 
> Thanks for trying to explain this to me. I'm not certain I understand,
> so I'll try to confirm.
> 
> It sounds like there isn't a concrete plan for the content of the
> documentation website, which is why it mostly duplicates the download
> options on the main website and wiki right now.

The plan is to have a focal point for download of community
documentation products, in order to increase the visibility and
effectiveness of the work done by documentation volunteers while
supporting users with the right information. By having ease access to
documentation web page we also expect to spark interest of the community
at large to contribute to documentation and be part of a community.

The community is multilingual, multinational and driven by volunteers.
Not every national LibreOffice website follows the contents, internal
URLs and organization of the English website, which turns the
documentation URL in these sites hard to follow.

> 
> But it sounds like the documentation website is intended to be the
> primary source for guide downloads and similar documents.

yes.

 In this case,
> I think the next step is to remove the download links from the main
> website's "documentation" page, and replace them with links to the
> documentation website, help website, and wiki.

Yes, and it depends on the national communities decision to make it.
Some communities made it happen, others didn't. Some communities are
very active, others are dormant.

> 
> Then we can work on the publication website. Again, I'm happy to help
> with this, but how do we edit it? The wiki page
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Guides_Website
>  is
> incomplete.

My fault. I'll amend the doc wiki page on this. Please follow
instructions of https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website . Poke me
when you get a login.

> 
> As for the wiki, my guess is that in the short term we should leave it
> alone, since this page does make it very easy to find everything while
> the other websites are in flux.
> 
> Moving onwards...
> 
> > I don't know who's in charge of the websites or what the plans are, but 
> the
> > current situation is a mess...which I'm happy to help clean up if it's
> > something anyone can do.
> 
> Thanks for the initiative, much appreciated. No one is actually "in
> charge", pages are created by the community members so everybody is "in
> charge", including removing SPAM and caring on the accuracy of the
> information. That is the way TDF wiki works.
> 
> 
> I think I understand what you mean by this from reading the the thread
> "simplifying documentation". Okay, so no one holds any formal
> responsibility. I didn't mean to imply that. (For me at least, the
> meaning of "in charge" is loose enough to include temporary volunteers.)

yes

> What I want to know is who is working on the website, which does not
> seem to have open editing. Based on that other thread, it seems that
> this would be the "infrastructure" team. Is this correct?

Almost, the infrastructure team supports the service but does not deal
with the contents (well sort of, it must be related to LibreOffice). The
list of national communities names is here:

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Website/Web_Sites_services#International_Sites


> 
> > Aside: design-wise the doc website also seems rather questionable to 
> me, and
> > hard to navigate. Giant text, giant graphical tiles for links, giant 
> inline
> > pictures, collapsing content instead of sidebar nav. But that's a topic 
> for
> > another time.
> 
> Please feel free to suggest another layout/color/design. As said above,
> it was conceived to be a download point for published community
> documents, and not a documentation (contents) website per-se.
> 
> 
> I have an idea in my head, but it will take some time to spell it out,
> so I'll do that in a new thread when I get a chance.

You are most welcome to show your ideas. Really.

Kind regards and a big thanks.

-- 
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LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator
Comunidade LibreOffice
Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
http://tdf.io/joinus

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Wiki cleanup

[Kenneth Hanson]

Olivier,

Thanks for trying to explain this to me. I'm not certain I understand, so
I'll try to confirm.

It sounds like there isn't a concrete plan for the content of the
documentation website, which is why it mostly duplicates the download
options on the main website and wiki right now.

But it sounds like the documentation website is intended to be the primary
source for guide downloads and similar documents. In this case, I think the
next step is to remove the download links from the main website's
"documentation" page, and replace them with links to the documentation
website, help website, and wiki.

Then we can work on the publication website. Again, I'm happy to help with
this, but how do we edit it? The wiki page https://wiki.
documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Guides_Website is incomplete.

As for the wiki, my guess is that in the short term we should leave it
alone, since this page does make it very easy to find everything while the
other websites are in flux.

Moving onwards...

> I don't know who's in charge of the websites or what the plans are, but
> the
> > current situation is a mess...which I'm happy to help clean up if it's
> > something anyone can do.
>
> Thanks for the initiative, much appreciated. No one is actually "in
> charge", pages are created by the community members so everybody is "in
> charge", including removing SPAM and caring on the accuracy of the
> information. That is the way TDF wiki works.
>

I think I understand what you mean by this from reading the the thread
"simplifying documentation". Okay, so no one holds any formal
responsibility. I didn't mean to imply that. (For me at least, the meaning
of "in charge" is loose enough to include temporary volunteers.) What I
want to know is who is working on the website, which does not seem to have
open editing. Based on that other thread, it seems that this would be the
"infrastructure" team. Is this correct?

> Aside: design-wise the doc website also seems rather questionable to me,
> and
> > hard to navigate. Giant text, giant graphical tiles for links, giant
> inline
> > pictures, collapsing content instead of sidebar nav. But that's a topic
> for
> > another time.
>
> Please feel free to suggest another layout/color/design. As said above,
> it was conceived to be a download point for published community
> documents, and not a documentation (contents) website per-se.
>

I have an idea in my head, but it will take some time to spell it out, so
I'll do that in a new thread when I get a chance.

--Kenneth

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Wiki cleanup

[Olivier Hallot]

Hi Kenneth

I reviewed the doc entry page and removed some obsolete pages and their
associated links.

Thank you for your help here.

Kind regards

Em 31/07/2017 02:53, Kenneth Hanson escreveu:
> Progress report for July 31.
> 
> 1. Moved doc team pages, in particular about the help system, under
> Documentation. Left user doc pages alone.
> 2. Updated Documentation/Development intro page.
> 3. Moved and retitled many pages, updated TOC again.
> 
> Let me know if I screwed anything up so far.
> 
> New issue: there are two help content authoring pages with very similar
> structure, but completely different content. One was originally a subpage
> of Documentation (current Documentation/Help) and the other was a top level
> page (current Documentation/Help_Content). Someone who knows this stuff
> well should combine them. Or, if they were meant to serve different
> purposes, resplit the info properly.
> 

-- 
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Comunidade LibreOffice
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