Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 10:09 -0400, Bruce Bodger wrote: If you're using mbox, giving a path to the INBOX file (eg. /var/mail/ %u) isn't enough. You'll also need to tell Dovecot where the other mailboxes are and where Dovecot can place its index files. This is called the root mail directory, and it must be the first path given in the mail_location setting. Yet both mbox examples describe otherwise. The first example, mail_location = mbox:~/mail:INBOX=/var/mail/%u has no INDEX definition and the second example, mail_location = mbox:/var/mail/%d/ %1n/%n:INDEX=/var/indexes/%d/%1n/%n shows the INDEX definition last when the instructions state that it must be first. I meant that the index files are also under the root mail directory. But this doesn't really matter, so I updated the comment: # If you're using mbox, giving a path to the INBOX file (eg. /var/mail/%u) # isn't enough. You'll also need to tell Dovecot where the other mailboxes are # kept. This is called the root mail directory, and it must be the first # path given in the mail_location setting. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
Timo Sirainen writes: 1) Split the config files, so the less used settings are separate files I think that would be good. Specially if you could have a tool chain that would produce both files from one source. 2) Remove some of the settings completely from dovecot-example.conf, although they could still exist (mail_cache_fields, mail_never_cache_fields at least) Are these settings only needed for debugging? Would they be documented anywhere? 3) Make the comments smaller and add more pointers to docs/wiki/ files. Good.
Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
Timo Sirainen writes: actually giving useful error messages. Often the admin is only looking at the log file where info messages go (eg mail.log) because Dovecot logs its startup message and login messages there, but not where the errors go (eg mail.err). This has happened even with people who in general are experienced sysadmins. I had problems with Dovecot because of it's logs when I first started. think that syslog should be default and to point it to mail.info level. If the user tries to setup the log variables errors should be sent to syslog mail.crit. I don't recall exact details, but I recall that when I first tried to use the log files I made a mistake and dovecot did not help me find the error. Logging to eg. /var/log/dovecot.log by default would be helpful here, but it's probably better to log via syslog by default. I agree on syslog as default. Cyrus logs to local6 by default. I think mail.info may be a better choice, although this may be somewhat OS dependant. Many people may not even know where their syslog configuration file is or even how to configure it. Because of this whatever is the most commonly used syslog call may be the best choice. In FreeBSD there is a default mail.info. Anyone familiar with Linux Distros and/or other BSDs know how common is an entry for mail.info in syslog.conf.
Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
Joseba Torre writes: there's no easy way to get rid of newbie problems: right now dovecot is quite a complex software I tried Cyrus once, and have been working with Courier for nearly 2 years before I tried Dovecot. In my opinion Dovecot is much simpler than Cyrus, but perhaps more complex than Courier. However I found the dovecot documentation to be very helpfull. The problem is how to make the documentation friendlier to people with little or no exprience managing a pop/imap server. common configs: - system users (using pam/passwd) - ldap (with a common conf) - mysql - postgresql Agree. Having samples and sections for those different configurations will go a long way to help new users.
Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
Timo Sirainen writes: Set pop3_uidl_format setting in config file pop3_uidl_format setting is missing from config file Set pop3_uidl_format in config file How about: You have choosen to run POP3. The setting pop3_uidl_format needs to be set in the dovecot.conf file for the POP3 server to work. See examples in configuration file. If that is too long.. then: You have choosen to run POP3. Setting pop3_uidl_format needed in dovecot.conf
Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
On Sun, 2007-05-20 at 20:35 -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: Timo Sirainen writes: 1) Split the config files, so the less used settings are separate files I think that would be good. Specially if you could have a tool chain that would produce both files from one source. Is there a need to have both? I was thinking about just splitting the current dovecot-example.conf to example/*.conf or something, which distributions could then maybe install to /etc/dovecot/example/. 2) Remove some of the settings completely from dovecot-example.conf, although they could still exist (mail_cache_fields, mail_never_cache_fields at least) Are these settings only needed for debugging? They're some micro-optimization settings and the only time when they might be useful is when you know exactly what IMAP clients are used and even then only for newly created mailboxes. In general Dovecot figures out itself what it should cache and there's no need to override them manually. Would they be documented anywhere? dovecot-example.conf has something about them but there's no other documentation. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
On Sun, 2007-05-20 at 20:15 -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: I think mail.info may be a better choice, although this may be somewhat OS dependant. Many people may not even know where their syslog configuration file is or even how to configure it. Because of this whatever is the most commonly used syslog call may be the best choice. In FreeBSD there is a default mail.info. Anyone familiar with Linux Distros and/or other BSDs know how common is an entry for mail.info in syslog.conf. But are you saying that Dovecot should log errors also with info level by default? That might be newbie-friendly but I'm not sure if it's otherwise such a good idea. Looks like Dovecot currently uses info for info/debug messages, err for errors and crit for fatals/panics. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
On Tue, 2007-05-22 at 02:10 +0300, Timo Sirainen wrote: On Sun, 2007-05-20 at 20:21 -0400, Francisco Reyes wrote: Timo Sirainen writes: Set pop3_uidl_format setting in config file pop3_uidl_format setting is missing from config file Set pop3_uidl_format in config file How about: You have choosen to run POP3. The setting pop3_uidl_format needs to be set in the dovecot.conf file for the POP3 server to work. See examples in configuration file. If that is too long.. then: You have choosen to run POP3. Setting pop3_uidl_format needed in dovecot.conf Lets try this: You must configure pop3_uidl_format in dovecot.conf This happens only when the user is logging in with pop3 so it should be obvious that the problem is related to pop3. Except why am I not checking it at startup? That would probably get rid of this problem once and for all. People are better at fixing problems at startup then when seeing them in the middle of log messages. This should be enough: # dovecot Error: POP3 enabled but pop3_uidl_format not set signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
Timo Sirainen writes: # dovecot Error: POP3 enabled but pop3_uidl_format not set And don't let Dovecot come up?
Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
Timo Sirainen writes: Is there a need to have both? I was thinking about just splitting the current dovecot-example.conf to example/*.conf or something I think this may be somewhat a matter of preference, but I would find it easier to have a simple file.. and a complete file. I would find it more difficult to have to look at two files, to combine them.
Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
Hi, there's no easy way to get rid of newbie problems: right now dovecot is quite a complex software, so configuration is complex. Even more, all the userdb/passdb thing is really powerfull, but also a bit diferent of anything I was used to, so it's normal that people is a bit confused in the begining. Anyway, I'm quite sure that in apache's, postfix's or sendmail's mailing lists there are far more newbie questions than here, and that isn't necesary bad. For me, the easier solution would be an entry in the wiki with well documented common configs: - system users (using pam/passwd) - ldap (with a common conf) - mysql - postgresql There is something similar in http://wiki.dovecot.org/DovecotServerInstallations but there the main goal seems to be the hardware. I have to document my current config in spanish for my job, and it wouldn't be a hard job to translate it to english a upload it somewhere. Aagur. El Martes, 15 de Mayo de 2007 18:40, Timo Sirainen escribió: I think the most common Dovecot newbie problems are: - Not looking at the (correct) logs for errors - Authentication problems - Mail location problems - Mail permission problems Below are some of my ideas how I could stop people from asking these questions with future Dovecot (v1.1+) releases. Suggestions welcome. Distribution people especially should say if they're against some change. -- Joseba Torre. CIDIR Bizkaia. pgphbpigagsJB.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
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Hash: SHA1
On Tue, 15 May 2007, Timo Sirainen wrote:
* Logging
Logging to eg. /var/log/dovecot.log by default would be helpful here,
Personally, I found logging to a separate file helpful during setting up
Dovecot, because you can focus on Dovecot that way.
* Authentication
So the last n failed authentications could be added, where n could
also be 0.
This message is user-specific, isn't it?
How about a login-statistics of the last 10 or so attempts? Maybe one can
use the utmp/wtmp service.
rip=127.0.0.1, lip=127.0.0.1, secured, 1 failed authentications (set
auth_debug_passwords=yes to debug the problem)
It usually is not enough to set the option, I think.
Shouldn't it be: read doc/debug_auth_problems.txt
with one of the first text therein set auth_debug_passwords=yes
* Mail location
It seems to be difficult for some people to set mail_location. I don't
IMHO: It looks wierd first, but the doc is OK.
The most problem for myself was that it's spelled maildir:%h/maildir
rather than maildir=%h/maildir, I mean anything else is in key=value
format.
Home directory is used in mail_location, but userdb didn't return a
home directory
It would be nice if it didn't say userdb, but rather the userdb's name.
When the userdb is logged, you could add a note that the particular userdb
is user-specific, but mentioned in the logs.
* Mail permissions
Another possibility would be to drop the dovecot user completely and
instead use nobody. That would mean that other nobody processes could
kill Dovecot's login processes, but that's pretty much it.
I would say no :-) Stick with a specific user.
Otherwise, if it is still possible to run Dovecot with a specific user,
... . I like to see in ps or top, which process belongs to which package
at easy glancing.
Add new mail_uid and mail_gid settings to dovecot.conf. Deprecate
user_global_uid/gid in dovecot-ldap.conf and make all the userdbs
mention that the uid/gid returned by userdb can be used to override the
global mail_uid/gid. Perhaps also add mail_home template. This change
makes it unnecessary to have a userdb configured at all.
- How do I tell Dovecot to run as vmail user?
- Set mail_uid = vmail in dovecot.conf
- Thanks
As long as this is transparent, I mean, one need no mail_uid in the LDAP
backends, this might solve lots of vmail support requests.
If I see it correct, this effectively makes userdb static the default -
without explizit userdb { } block. BTW: Is mail_home the same as
mail_location then?
Bye,
- --
Steffen Kaiser
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Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
On 5/16/2007 Joseba Torre ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: For me, the easier solution would be an entry in the wiki with well documented common configs: - system users (using pam/passwd) - ldap (with a common conf) - mysql - postgresql I agree completely... also, explanations for what is required to convert from, say, cyrus-sasl to dovecot-sasl (I want to do that someday soon), from common LDA (ie postfix's) to the dovecot LDA (want to do that as well), etc... Wish I was fluent in all of these, I'd do it myself... if no one has by the time I get around to it, I'll document what I do and add it to the wiki... -- Best regards, Charles
Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
Am Dienstag, den 15.05.2007, 19:40 +0300 schrieb Timo Sirainen: I think the most common Dovecot newbie problems are: - Not looking at the (correct) logs for errors - Authentication problems - Mail location problems - Mail permission problems Below are some of my ideas how I could stop people from asking these questions with future Dovecot (v1.1+) releases. Suggestions welcome. Distribution people especially should say if they're against some change. * Logging The log file problem is the most annoying one, because a lot of the other problems can be solved once the admin figures out that Dovecot is actually giving useful error messages. Often the admin is only looking at the log file where info messages go (eg mail.log) because Dovecot logs its startup message and login messages there, but not where the errors go (eg mail.err). This has happened even with people who in general are experienced sysadmins. Logging to eg. /var/log/dovecot.log by default would be helpful here, but it's probably better to log via syslog by default. Cyrus logs to local6 by default. Perhaps for Dovecot v1.1 I should make that the default too? Looks like in my Debian system the info messages then go to both /var/log/messages and /var/log/syslog. Error messages only go to /var/log/syslog. So there still isn't by default a single log file where the errors are logged, but it might help a bit. Logging is always a special issue. No matter where and how much is logged, you can bet that either not all is read or it is misinterpreted. I say this as a first hand prove for that, there are many times when I saw an error message but did not actually read it :-) Getting people to actually read _and_ understand what a log message means is very difficult on a very psychological level :-) But of course, good logging is vital in any circumstance and logging to an own facility would be a good idea anyhow. * Authentication Authentication problems can usually be solved by telling the user to set auth_debug_passwords=yes and looking at the logs. I'm not sure if there's anything that can be helped in here. Except the logging message could be updated a bit: Aborted login: user=asdga, method=PLAIN, rip=127.0.0.1, lip=127.0.0.1, secured, 1 failed authentications So the last n failed authentications could be added, where n could also be 0. Another possibility would be to make Dovecot remember if there have been any successful logins (/var/lib/dovecot/success file) and if not, give a bit more helpful error messages: - Client gets: NO Authentication failed. Refer to server log for more information. instead of the normal NO Authentication failed. - Log contains: Aborted login: user=asdga, method=PLAIN, rip=127.0.0.1, lip=127.0.0.1, secured, 1 failed authentications (set auth_debug_passwords=yes to debug the problem) I'm not sure if this is a good idea. The overhead for this on heavily loaded systems would be quite significant, IMHO. This feature should only be active when explicitly activated in the configuration, so that would not be much of a change to the current situation :-) * Mail location It seems to be difficult for some people to set mail_location. I don't know if anything can be done before Dovecot v2.0 where I'll split it to multiple settings, such as: driver = maildir root_dir = ~/Maildir index_dir = /var/indexes/%u Another problem that seems to be difficult to understand is why the mail directory contains HOME_DIRECTORY_USED_BUT_NOT_GIVEN_BY_USERDB. The whole userdb concept appears to be weird. This could anyway be fixed by giving an error message earlier and failing the login with internal error. Probably the best place to give the error message would be already in the userdb lookup in dovecot-auth, but that would require that doveoct-auth knows if the home directory is really needed, and to give a useful error message it would also need to tell where it's tried to be used (mail_location, or some namespace's location, or ..). Probably too much trouble to be worth it. So the next best thing is to give the error when it's used: Home directory is used in mail_location, but userdb didn't return a home directory It would be nice if it didn't say userdb, but rather the userdb's name. I guess that would be possible if dovecot-auth told master (or deliver) which userdb was used, but that would normally be just extra overhead. * Mail permissions If mail location is difficult for some, then the concept of UIDs are how they're used in Dovecot is pretty much impossible for some to understand. One of the problems is that there exists dovecot user. So people think that their mails should be owned by the dovecot user. Although I've mentioned in everywhere I can think of that this should not be done, it won't help because either people won't read the pages or even if they do, they somehow still fail to ignore it even though it's
Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
On Wed, 2007-05-16 at 02:15 +0200, Udo Rader wrote: Getting people to actually read _and_ understand what a log message means is very difficult on a very psychological level :-) A good example would be this error that I've changed 2 times already: Set pop3_uidl_format setting in config file pop3_uidl_format setting is missing from config file Set pop3_uidl_format in config file Looks like the first one actually was the best one. I'm not sure why I changed it to the second one, and when changing it again to the 3rd one I seem to have dropped setting word. Maybe I should add it back. :) Anyway, with all of these 3 messages people have still copypasted logs and asked How do I fix this? I just don't know how to make it any more clearer. Except a few times people have asked What config file? so changing that to dovecot.conf could help a bit. Another possibility would be to make Dovecot remember if there have been any successful logins (/var/lib/dovecot/success file) and if not, give a bit more helpful error messages: - Client gets: NO Authentication failed. Refer to server log for more information. instead of the normal NO Authentication failed. - Log contains: Aborted login: user=asdga, method=PLAIN, rip=127.0.0.1, lip=127.0.0.1, secured, 1 failed authentications (set auth_debug_passwords=yes to debug the problem) I'm not sure if this is a good idea. The overhead for this on heavily loaded systems would be quite significant, IMHO. This feature should only be active when explicitly activated in the configuration, so that would not be much of a change to the current situation :-) No, it wouldn't add much overhead. That file's existence could be checked only at startup, and after that it's just a variable that needs to be checked/updated and the for the first successful login the file would have to be created. IMO the best way to prevent basic errors and basic questions is to provide as many sample configurations as possible (eg. in the wiki), maybe organized as some kind of recipes. Yea, that would be useful. Especially adding configurations that worked with other user managing software such as Postfixadmin. I've upgraded our and come clients' dovecot installations multiple times, and to be honest I did not like the extensive documentation provided in the default configuration files. Saying 'I did not like it' does not mean that the information was useless, on the contrary, the amount was just overwhelming ... Sometimes too much information is ... too much :-) For Dovecot v2.0 I'm planning on splitting dovecot.conf to multiple files. The main dovecot.conf would then contain only the most important settings. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
I'm trying to get up to speed enough so that I am confident enough to answer more questions... I think that would help more than anything (people helping him out here on the list)... That, and, of course, adding more well written, targeted articles to the wiki... -- Best regards, Charles
Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
On 5/16/2007 Timo Sirainen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Anyway, with all of these 3 messages people have still copypasted logs and asked How do I fix this? I just don't know how to make it any more clearer. I don't think you can... I really respect your desire to make things as easy/simple for people new to dovecot, Except a few times people have asked What config file? so changing that to dovecot.conf could help a bit. No amount of effort can help someone who is unwilling to learn the bare minimum about a new program they want to use - and if they aren't even aware that dovecot has a config file (as does every other server app I've ever used), or what it is named or where it is - well, I don't think I need to say anything more. -- Best regards, Charles
Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
I see what you're getting at, but personally i really like having plenty of documentation in the config files. That way when you're editing the config file, you can know exactly what you're doing and have good descriptions right in front of you Of course this is no substitute for other documentation like manual/wiki etc Maybe the answer is to have two .conf files - one, the example, that contains the comments as it is now, and the other, the basic config file, with bare minimum comments. Of course, this means twice as much work for Timo, unless he can do this with his IDE somehow (have two different 'comment' fields, one for the .example.conf, and one for the minimal version)? Since I'm not a programmer and never used an IDE or cvs, not sure how dumb this sounds... ;) -- Best regards, Charles
Re: [Dovecot] Getting rid of the common newbie problems
On May 16, 2007, at 9:29 AM, Charles Marcus wrote: I see what you're getting at, but personally i really like having plenty of documentation in the config files. That way when you're editing the config file, you can know exactly what you're doing and have good descriptions right in front of you Of course this is no substitute for other documentation like manual/wiki etc On the subject of newbie questions... The dovecot-example.conf file, under Mailbox locations and namespaces, states, If you're using mbox, giving a path to the INBOX file (eg. /var/mail/ %u) isn't enough. You'll also need to tell Dovecot where the other mailboxes are and where Dovecot can place its index files. This is called the root mail directory, and it must be the first path given in the mail_location setting. Yet both mbox examples describe otherwise. The first example, mail_location = mbox:~/mail:INBOX=/var/mail/%u has no INDEX definition and the second example, mail_location = mbox:/var/mail/%d/ %1n/%n:INDEX=/var/indexes/%d/%1n/%n shows the INDEX definition last when the instructions state that it must be first. I happen to be using (under OS X), mail_location = mbox:~/Library/Mail/IMAP:INBOX=/var/mail/%u:INDEX=%h/ Library/Mail/DOVECOT.indexes ...without any problems so basically, I find the instructions a bit confusing. B. Bodger New York, NY
