Re: [Drakelist] T-4X Stability
Curt - Excellent point. I missed the 'standard' in the first read of Eddy's message. I always use an 'ovenized' counter and just well, you know.. :-) 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 2-C/2-NT, 4-A, 4-B, C-Line and TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs Curt Nixon wrote: Not sure anyone asked this, and I didn't see it in your initial post, but was the 751A already warmed up when you tested the drake? What is the frequency reference in the 751A? I recently used a 751 which is essentially the same frequency determining set-up for a freq measurement test and I can tell you, it isn't all that stable either...and, it goes up and down with small temperature differences over a span of only several minutes. Even when it had been running in Rx only for over 24 hours. So..keep in mind that the data you recorded is the net difference from a moving reference. After warm-up, I'm not so sure that the 751A is any better than the Drake. They are a lot better if they have the TCXO module added, but I didn't see that mentioned. Anyway, just curious what the reference conditions were. Thanks Curt KU8L On 11/25/2011 5:57 PM, Garey Barrell wrote: Steve - I think 30 minutes is a reasonable 'warm-up' time. IF the radio is in a controlled environment.!! Take one out of the garage in winter and plug it in, it's gonna take considerably longer before everything reaches equilibrium. You have some sizable chunks of iron and steel in there that can absorb quite a bit of heat. From 60 degrees to a 'nominal' 75 degree ambient on top of normal internal heating would take a while, perhaps an hour?!? :-) Plus as Evan said there will be a delta from transmitting as well. A fan makes a BIG difference in this if you are into long transmissions or TTY, etc. This is one reason why the TR-7 fan is used to exhaust hot air from the PA right out the back rather than blow it in all over the radio, including the PTO, with each transmission. 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 2-C/2-NT, 4-A, 4-B, C-Line and TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs Steve Wedge wrote: I always assumed it was a 30 minute warmup, because I seem to remember the alignment procedures spec 30 minutes warmup before doing an alignment. Steve Wedge, W1ES/4 "I can't complain, but sometimes I still do." - Joe Walsh If the above message appears, it came from Steve's Son of Laptop! - Original Message - From: "Eddy Swynar" To: Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 2:32 PM Subject: [Drakelist] T-4X Stability Hi All, The manual for my T-4X states that stability is "LESS THAN 100 CYCLES AFTER WARM-UP". My question is simply this: how long, exactly, is an accepted period of "warm-up"...? After all of the hoops that I've jumped through in stabilizing the PTO in my rig (re-buiding it almost, actually!), I decided this morning to actually measure its drift. I used my ICOM 751A transceiver (in general coverage mode) as the frequency "umpire", and tuned it directly to the Drake PTO's output frequency of 5454.0-KHz. Both rigs were in the basement overnight, where the ambient room temperature was 59F. I measured the frequency a total of SIX times, i.e. (1) immediately at the start of the test, (2) 3 minutes into the test, (3) 15 minutes into the test, (4) 30 minutes into the test, (5) 1 hour into the test, and finally (6) two hours into the test... Here are my results: (1) 5454.0-KHz (cold start); (2) 5454.0-KHz (unchanged from cold start); (3) 5453.5-KHz (downward drift of 500-Hz from cold start); (4) 5453.0 KHz (downward drift of 1-KHz from cold start); (5) 5452.8-KHz (downward drift of 1.2-KHz from cold start), and, (6) 5452.8-KHz (unchanged). So---it looks like the rascal that I have here stabilizes after a good hour of steady warm-up, which leads me to suspect that maybe "warm-up" to the writer of the manual was, in fact, just that, i.e. one hour...? No matter, it was a most interesting exercise---and I sure would be curious if my rig's performance might match that of some of the other T-4Xs that are out there...although I dare say, probably not everyone has as thick a hide as I do in being able to withstand a 59F ambient room temperature...! Hi Hi. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] T-4X Stability
I wish my HQ-140X was this stable ... and has been said ... 59 degrees ... yikes ... hell even I don't function well at 59 degrees..!! Bill, W0LPQ ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] T-4X Stability
Not sure anyone asked this, and I didn't see it in your initial post, but was the 751A already warmed up when you tested the drake? What is the frequency reference in the 751A? I recently used a 751 which is essentially the same frequency determining set-up for a freq measurement test and I can tell you, it isn't all that stable either...and, it goes up and down with small temperature differences over a span of only several minutes. Even when it had been running in Rx only for over 24 hours. So..keep in mind that the data you recorded is the net difference from a moving reference. After warm-up, I'm not so sure that the 751A is any better than the Drake. They are a lot better if they have the TCXO module added, but I didn't see that mentioned. Anyway, just curious what the reference conditions were. Thanks Curt KU8L On 11/25/2011 5:57 PM, Garey Barrell wrote: Steve - I think 30 minutes is a reasonable 'warm-up' time. IF the radio is in a controlled environment.!! Take one out of the garage in winter and plug it in, it's gonna take considerably longer before everything reaches equilibrium. You have some sizable chunks of iron and steel in there that can absorb quite a bit of heat. From 60 degrees to a 'nominal' 75 degree ambient on top of normal internal heating would take a while, perhaps an hour?!? :-) Plus as Evan said there will be a delta from transmitting as well. A fan makes a BIG difference in this if you are into long transmissions or TTY, etc. This is one reason why the TR-7 fan is used to exhaust hot air from the PA right out the back rather than blow it in all over the radio, including the PTO, with each transmission. 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 2-C/2-NT, 4-A, 4-B, C-Line and TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs Steve Wedge wrote: I always assumed it was a 30 minute warmup, because I seem to remember the alignment procedures spec 30 minutes warmup before doing an alignment. Steve Wedge, W1ES/4 "I can't complain, but sometimes I still do." - Joe Walsh If the above message appears, it came from Steve's Son of Laptop! - Original Message - From: "Eddy Swynar" To: Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 2:32 PM Subject: [Drakelist] T-4X Stability Hi All, The manual for my T-4X states that stability is "LESS THAN 100 CYCLES AFTER WARM-UP". My question is simply this: how long, exactly, is an accepted period of "warm-up"...? After all of the hoops that I've jumped through in stabilizing the PTO in my rig (re-buiding it almost, actually!), I decided this morning to actually measure its drift. I used my ICOM 751A transceiver (in general coverage mode) as the frequency "umpire", and tuned it directly to the Drake PTO's output frequency of 5454.0-KHz. Both rigs were in the basement overnight, where the ambient room temperature was 59F. I measured the frequency a total of SIX times, i.e. (1) immediately at the start of the test, (2) 3 minutes into the test, (3) 15 minutes into the test, (4) 30 minutes into the test, (5) 1 hour into the test, and finally (6) two hours into the test... Here are my results: (1) 5454.0-KHz (cold start); (2) 5454.0-KHz (unchanged from cold start); (3) 5453.5-KHz (downward drift of 500-Hz from cold start); (4) 5453.0 KHz (downward drift of 1-KHz from cold start); (5) 5452.8-KHz (downward drift of 1.2-KHz from cold start), and, (6) 5452.8-KHz (unchanged). So---it looks like the rascal that I have here stabilizes after a good hour of steady warm-up, which leads me to suspect that maybe "warm-up" to the writer of the manual was, in fact, just that, i.e. one hour...? No matter, it was a most interesting exercise---and I sure would be curious if my rig's performance might match that of some of the other T-4Xs that are out there...although I dare say, probably not everyone has as thick a hide as I do in being able to withstand a 59F ambient room temperature...! Hi Hi. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] T-4X Stability
Steve - I think 30 minutes is a reasonable 'warm-up' time. IF the radio is in a controlled environment.!! Take one out of the garage in winter and plug it in, it's gonna take considerably longer before everything reaches equilibrium. You have some sizable chunks of iron and steel in there that can absorb quite a bit of heat. From 60 degrees to a 'nominal' 75 degree ambient on top of normal internal heating would take a while, perhaps an hour?!? :-) Plus as Evan said there will be a delta from transmitting as well. A fan makes a BIG difference in this if you are into long transmissions or TTY, etc. This is one reason why the TR-7 fan is used to exhaust hot air from the PA right out the back rather than blow it in all over the radio, including the PTO, with each transmission. 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 2-C/2-NT, 4-A, 4-B, C-Line and TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs Steve Wedge wrote: I always assumed it was a 30 minute warmup, because I seem to remember the alignment procedures spec 30 minutes warmup before doing an alignment. Steve Wedge, W1ES/4 "I can't complain, but sometimes I still do." - Joe Walsh If the above message appears, it came from Steve's Son of Laptop! - Original Message - From: "Eddy Swynar" To: Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 2:32 PM Subject: [Drakelist] T-4X Stability Hi All, The manual for my T-4X states that stability is "LESS THAN 100 CYCLES AFTER WARM-UP". My question is simply this: how long, exactly, is an accepted period of "warm-up"...? After all of the hoops that I've jumped through in stabilizing the PTO in my rig (re-buiding it almost, actually!), I decided this morning to actually measure its drift. I used my ICOM 751A transceiver (in general coverage mode) as the frequency "umpire", and tuned it directly to the Drake PTO's output frequency of 5454.0-KHz. Both rigs were in the basement overnight, where the ambient room temperature was 59F. I measured the frequency a total of SIX times, i.e. (1) immediately at the start of the test, (2) 3 minutes into the test, (3) 15 minutes into the test, (4) 30 minutes into the test, (5) 1 hour into the test, and finally (6) two hours into the test... Here are my results: (1) 5454.0-KHz (cold start); (2) 5454.0-KHz (unchanged from cold start); (3) 5453.5-KHz (downward drift of 500-Hz from cold start); (4) 5453.0 KHz (downward drift of 1-KHz from cold start); (5) 5452.8-KHz (downward drift of 1.2-KHz from cold start), and, (6) 5452.8-KHz (unchanged). So---it looks like the rascal that I have here stabilizes after a good hour of steady warm-up, which leads me to suspect that maybe "warm-up" to the writer of the manual was, in fact, just that, i.e. one hour...? No matter, it was a most interesting exercise---and I sure would be curious if my rig's performance might match that of some of the other T-4Xs that are out there...although I dare say, probably not everyone has as thick a hide as I do in being able to withstand a 59F ambient room temperature...! Hi Hi. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] T-4X Stability
At 02:32 PM 11/25/2011, Eddy Swynar wrote: although I dare say, probably not everyone has as thick a hide as I do in being able to withstand a 59F ambient room temperature...! Hi Hi. Good God man, close the windows when you're measuring drift! :-) John K5MO ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] T-4X Stability
I always assumed it was a 30 minute warmup, because I seem to remember the alignment procedures spec 30 minutes warmup before doing an alignment. Steve Wedge, W1ES/4 "I can't complain, but sometimes I still do." - Joe Walsh If the above message appears, it came from Steve's Son of Laptop! - Original Message - From: "Eddy Swynar" To: Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 2:32 PM Subject: [Drakelist] T-4X Stability Hi All, The manual for my T-4X states that stability is "LESS THAN 100 CYCLES AFTER WARM-UP". My question is simply this: how long, exactly, is an accepted period of "warm-up"...? After all of the hoops that I've jumped through in stabilizing the PTO in my rig (re-buiding it almost, actually!), I decided this morning to actually measure its drift. I used my ICOM 751A transceiver (in general coverage mode) as the frequency "umpire", and tuned it directly to the Drake PTO's output frequency of 5454.0-KHz. Both rigs were in the basement overnight, where the ambient room temperature was 59F. I measured the frequency a total of SIX times, i.e. (1) immediately at the start of the test, (2) 3 minutes into the test, (3) 15 minutes into the test, (4) 30 minutes into the test, (5) 1 hour into the test, and finally (6) two hours into the test... Here are my results: (1) 5454.0-KHz (cold start); (2) 5454.0-KHz (unchanged from cold start); (3) 5453.5-KHz (downward drift of 500-Hz from cold start); (4) 5453.0 KHz (downward drift of 1-KHz from cold start); (5) 5452.8-KHz (downward drift of 1.2-KHz from cold start), and, (6) 5452.8-KHz (unchanged). So---it looks like the rascal that I have here stabilizes after a good hour of steady warm-up, which leads me to suspect that maybe "warm-up" to the writer of the manual was, in fact, just that, i.e. one hour...? No matter, it was a most interesting exercise---and I sure would be curious if my rig's performance might match that of some of the other T-4Xs that are out there...although I dare say, probably not everyone has as thick a hide as I do in being able to withstand a 59F ambient room temperature...! Hi Hi. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] T-4X Stability
Eddy, Well, "it depends". One thing that will add to the drift rate is how often and to what degree the final amplifier is exercised. A fan pulling the hot air out helps if it is located above or behind the final amplifier cage. Because of this, the R4C is often used for primary frequency control with a C line. My experience with the B line, C line, and 7 line, is that there are "classes" of drift due to either production line variations, component lots, or luck of the draw. For example, I've had TR-7s that drift well under 50 hz per hour while others have drifted over 200 hz per hour and needed 18-24 hours to stabilize; too, some never stabilized. Enjoy those Drakes. And don't forget the Drake nets... 73, Evan, K9SQG -Original Message- From: Eddy Swynar To: drakelist Sent: Fri, Nov 25, 2011 9:33 am Subject: [Drakelist] T-4X Stability Hi All, The manual for my T-4X states that stability is "LESS THAN 100 CYCLES AFTER WARM-UP". My question is simply this: how long, exactly, is an accepted period of "warm-up"...? After all of the hoops that I've jumped through in stabilizing the PTO in my rig (re-buiding it almost, actually!), I decided this morning to actually measure its drift. I used my ICOM 751A transceiver (in general coverage mode) as the frequency "umpire", and tuned it directly to the Drake PTO's output frequency of 5454.0-KHz. Both rigs were in the basement overnight, where the ambient room temperature was 59F. I measured the frequency a total of SIX times, i.e. (1) immediately at the start of the test, (2) 3 minutes into the test, (3) 15 minutes into the test, (4) 30 minutes into the test, (5) 1 hour into the test, and finally (6) two hours into the test... Here are my results: (1) 5454.0-KHz (cold start); (2) 5454.0-KHz (unchanged from cold start); (3) 5453.5-KHz (downward drift of 500-Hz from cold start); (4) 5453.0 KHz (downward drift of 1-KHz from cold start); (5) 5452.8-KHz (downward drift of 1.2-KHz from cold start), and, (6) 5452.8-KHz (unchanged). So---it looks like the rascal that I have here stabilizes after a good hour of steady warm-up, which leads me to suspect that maybe "warm-up" to the writer of the manual was, in fact, just that, i.e. one hour...? No matter, it was a most interesting exercise---and I sure would be curious if my rig's performance might match that of some of the other T-4Xs that are out there...although I dare say, probably not everyone has as thick a hide as I do in being able to withstand a 59F ambient room temperature...! Hi Hi. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] T-4X Stability
- Original Message - From: "Eddy Swynar" To: Sent: Friday, November 25, 2011 11:32 AM Subject: [Drakelist] T-4X Stability Hi All, The manual for my T-4X states that stability is "LESS THAN 100 CYCLES AFTER WARM-UP". My question is simply this: how long, exactly, is an accepted period of "warm-up"...? After all of the hoops that I've jumped through in stabilizing the PTO in my rig (re-buiding it almost, actually!), I decided this morning to actually measure its drift. I used my ICOM 751A transceiver (in general coverage mode) as the frequency "umpire", and tuned it directly to the Drake PTO's output frequency of 5454.0-KHz. Both rigs were in the basement overnight, where the ambient room temperature was 59F. I measured the frequency a total of SIX times, i.e. (1) immediately at the start of the test, (2) 3 minutes into the test, (3) 15 minutes into the test, (4) 30 minutes into the test, (5) 1 hour into the test, and finally (6) two hours into the test... Here are my results: (1) 5454.0-KHz (cold start); (2) 5454.0-KHz (unchanged from cold start); (3) 5453.5-KHz (downward drift of 500-Hz from cold start); (4) 5453.0 KHz (downward drift of 1-KHz from cold start); (5) 5452.8-KHz (downward drift of 1.2-KHz from cold start), and, (6) 5452.8-KHz (unchanged). So---it looks like the rascal that I have here stabilizes after a good hour of steady warm-up, which leads me to suspect that maybe "warm-up" to the writer of the manual was, in fact, just that, i.e. one hour...? No matter, it was a most interesting exercise---and I sure would be curious if my rig's performance might match that of some of the other T-4Xs that are out there...although I dare say, probably not everyone has as thick a hide as I do in being able to withstand a 59F ambient room temperature...! Hi Hi. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ I suspect this is normal. An hour for all parts to reach some sort of thermal equilibrium is not very long. Some equipment takes a lot longer, for instance, somewhere in the TMC literature its stated that the stabilization time for the GPR-90 receiver is 48 hours! I think this is probably typical for a lot of equipment. OTOH perhaps the temperature compensation in your TX is not quite on. The fact that it drifts in the same direction is IMO a good sign. Some compensation results in drift that varies in direction as the temp changes. -- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles WB6KBL dickb...@ix.netcom.com ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
[Drakelist] T-4X Stability
Hi All, The manual for my T-4X states that stability is "LESS THAN 100 CYCLES AFTER WARM-UP". My question is simply this: how long, exactly, is an accepted period of "warm-up"...? After all of the hoops that I've jumped through in stabilizing the PTO in my rig (re-buiding it almost, actually!), I decided this morning to actually measure its drift. I used my ICOM 751A transceiver (in general coverage mode) as the frequency "umpire", and tuned it directly to the Drake PTO's output frequency of 5454.0-KHz. Both rigs were in the basement overnight, where the ambient room temperature was 59F. I measured the frequency a total of SIX times, i.e. (1) immediately at the start of the test, (2) 3 minutes into the test, (3) 15 minutes into the test, (4) 30 minutes into the test, (5) 1 hour into the test, and finally (6) two hours into the test... Here are my results: (1) 5454.0-KHz (cold start); (2) 5454.0-KHz (unchanged from cold start); (3) 5453.5-KHz (downward drift of 500-Hz from cold start); (4) 5453.0 KHz (downward drift of 1-KHz from cold start); (5) 5452.8-KHz (downward drift of 1.2-KHz from cold start), and, (6) 5452.8-KHz (unchanged). So---it looks like the rascal that I have here stabilizes after a good hour of steady warm-up, which leads me to suspect that maybe "warm-up" to the writer of the manual was, in fact, just that, i.e. one hour...? No matter, it was a most interesting exercise---and I sure would be curious if my rig's performance might match that of some of the other T-4Xs that are out there...although I dare say, probably not everyone has as thick a hide as I do in being able to withstand a 59F ambient room temperature...! Hi Hi. ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
Re: [Drakelist] R-4A Problem Help Please
Curt - First quick check . Sub C126. 73, Garey - K4OAH Glen Allen, VA Drake 2-B, 2-C/2-NT, 4-A, 4-B, C-Line and TR-4/C Service Supplement CDs rhule...@comcast.net wrote: I'm trying to fix my R-4A, looking for help diagnose and repair. Unfortunately I don't own a signal tracer or an oscilloscope. When initially powered on, the R-4A works normally for about 5 minutes. Then, static will build over period of about one minute, with no received signal, followed by a “pop”, and normal reception will resume. After about a minute the sequence will happen again. After being on for about 30 minutes the receiver will behave normally. I had been dealing with the issue by just turning on the receiver awhile before wanted to use it. Yesterday, after being on for about an hour, listening to a station on 40M LSB, reception stopped, and static started, building over long period of about 3 minutes, followed by a “pop” then normal reception. So, evidently the problem is getting worse. Today I am going to open it up and try changing out some tubes. Guessing to start from the RF amplifier because since static is always present am guessing the audio stages are fine. Could a problem in the AGC circuits cause this behavior? Thanks in advance, Curt KB5JO ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
[Drakelist] R-4A Problem Help Please
I'm trying to fix my R-4A, looking for help diagnose and repair. Unfortunately I don't own a signal tracer or an oscilloscope. When initially powered on, the R-4A works normally for about 5 minutes. Then, static will build over period of about one minute, with no received signal, followed by a “pop”, and normal reception will resume. After about a minute the sequence will happen again. After being on for about 30 minutes the receiver will behave normally. I had been dealing with the issue by just turning on the receiver awhile before wanted to use it. Yesterday, after being on for about an hour, listening to a station on 40M LSB, reception stopped, and static started, building over long period of about 3 minutes, followed by a “pop” then normal reception. So, evidently the problem is getting worse. Today I am going to open it up and try changing out some tubes. Guessing to start from the RF amplifier because since static is always present am guessing the audio stages are fine. Could a problem in the AGC circuits cause this behavior? Thanks in advance, Curt KB5JO ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
[Drakelist] FS: Drake SW8 Receiver
My SW8 is available for sale. See it at http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/ele/2719392172.html Thanks & 73 from WA0EPW ___ Drakelist mailing list Drakelist@zerobeat.net http://mailman.zerobeat.net/mailman/listinfo/drakelist
