Re: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...

[Eddy Swynar]

Hi Steve,

You'll probably see the same results doing it that way, I'm sure...

Still, it'd be most interesting as a final check-point to see what might happen 
if you were to swap that "bad" PTO into the "good" rig. Maybe you'll end-up 
just doing that in the end for curiousity's sake, who knows...? It IS a lot of 
work, for sure...

~73!~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ


***

On 2011-08-24, at 10:40 AM, Steve Wedge wrote:

> No, but I've considered it.  It's a lot more work getting the PTO in/out of 
> the transmitter due to the short leads and the proximity of the crystal bank 
> and bandswitch.
> 
> My plan is to drive the PTO from a separate supply and check with the rest of 
> the receiver off and then on.  I'm monitoring the output on my K3 and can 
> easily detect it the output is changing.
> 
> W1ES/4
> 
> -Original Message- 
> From: Eddy Swynar 
> Sent: Aug 24, 2011 9:20 AM 
> To: Steve Wedge 
> Cc: Richard Knoppow <1oldle...@ix.netcom.com>, drakelist@zerobeat.net 
> Subject: Re: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard... 
> 
> 
> On 2011-08-24, at 8:40 AM, Steve Wedge wrote:
> 
>> The thing that's really puzzling me is that the PTO that's currently 
>> installed was rock-solid in the T-4XB it was in, and I did test the 
>> operation (alas, the PTO control seemed to be the only function of that 
>> transmitter that worked, but I digress...).  It's just unlikely (but not 
>> impossible) that a previously-functioning PTO would suddenly exhibit the 
>> same symptoms as the one that was replaced.
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> A stupid question on my part, I'm sure, but here it comes anyway: did you 
> ever install the originally "bad" PTO into the originally "good" rig...? 
> 
> If the bad PTO suddenly became good after such a trans-migration, then it'd 
> definitely indicate that the problem resides somewhere in your original rig 
> itself, BEYOND the actual PTO.
> 
> ...But you may well have already done that & mentioned it in passing.
> 
> ~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ

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Re: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...

[Steve Wedge]

No, but I've considered it.  It's a lot more work getting the PTO in/out of the transmitter due to the short leads and the proximity of the crystal bank and bandswitch.
My plan is to drive the PTO from a separate supply and check with the rest of the receiver off and then on.  I'm monitoring the output on my K3 and can easily detect it the output is changing.
W1ES/4
-Original Message- From: Eddy Swynar Sent: Aug 24, 2011 9:20 AM To: Steve Wedge Cc: Richard Knoppow <1oldle...@ix.netcom.com>, drakelist@zerobeat.net Subject: Re: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard... 

On 2011-08-24, at 8:40 AM, Steve Wedge wrote:
The thing that's really puzzling me is that the PTO that's currently installed was rock-solid in the T-4XB it was in, and I did test the operation (alas, the PTO control seemed to be the only function of that transmitter that worked, but I digress...).  It's just unlikely (but not impossible) that a previously-functioning PTO would suddenly exhibit the same symptoms as the one that was replaced.
Hi Steve,

A stupid question on my part, I'm sure, but here it comes anyway: did you ever install the originally "bad" PTO into the originally "good" rig...? 

If the bad PTO suddenly became good after such a trans-migration, then it'd definitely indicate that the problem resides somewhere in your original rig itself, BEYOND the actual PTO.

...But you may well have already done that & mentioned it in passing.

~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ

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Re: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...

[Eddy Swynar]

On 2011-08-24, at 8:40 AM, Steve Wedge wrote:

> The thing that's really puzzling me is that the PTO that's currently 
> installed was rock-solid in the T-4XB it was in, and I did test the operation 
> (alas, the PTO control seemed to be the only function of that transmitter 
> that worked, but I digress...).  It's just unlikely (but not impossible) that 
> a previously-functioning PTO would suddenly exhibit the same symptoms as the 
> one that was replaced.

Hi Steve,

A stupid question on my part, I'm sure, but here it comes anyway: did you ever 
install the originally "bad" PTO into the originally "good" rig...? 

If the bad PTO suddenly became good after such a trans-migration, then it'd 
definitely indicate that the problem resides somewhere in your original rig 
itself, BEYOND the actual PTO.

...But you may well have already done that & mentioned it in passing.

~73~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ___
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Re: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...

[Steve Wedge]

Yep - re-soldered everything around the gas regulator.  Output looks solid and 
is 11V.  Not sure about the tolerance of the zener inside this particular PTO, 
so I also tried temporarily putting a 10V zener from V+ to GND.  With the 
voltage regulated, the problem persisted.

The thing that's really puzzling me is that the PTO that's currently installed 
was rock-solid in the T-4XB it was in, and I did test the operation (alas, the 
PTO control seemed to be the only function of that transmitter that worked, but 
I digress...).  It's just unlikely (but not impossible) that a 
previously-functioning PTO would suddenly exhibit the same symptoms as the one 
that was replaced.

Tonight's mission will be to power the PTO with a regulated 12V supply.  I will 
test the one in the receiver first, with the remaining receiver power off, then 
on.  If powering it externally does the job, I'll rebuild the regulated supply 
- which does have a diode and a 680k resistor in the cathode circuit.

73,

Steve, W1ES/4

-Original Message-
>From: Richard Knoppow <1oldle...@ix.netcom.com>
>Sent: Aug 24, 2011 3:30 AM
>To: Steve Wedge 
>Cc: drakelist@zerobeat.net
>Subject: Re: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...
>
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Steve Wedge" 
>To: "Ron" 
>Cc: 
>Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 4:43 PM
>Subject: Re: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...
>
>
>completely random.  Gets worse if I tap on it, but then 
>again, I'd expect some reaction when tapping it.  Now, I've 
>got to find some test leads.  I'm going to turn my station 
>supply down to 11V so I can still run the K3 and will power 
>each PTO off this very stiff supply.
>
>It's now obvious to me that it's either the PTO (yeah, both 
>of 'em) or the regulated supply has issues.
>
>Steve Wedge, W1ES/4
>
>If the PTO works in one transmitter but not the the 
>other that pretty much eliminates it. Have you made 
>comparitive voltage measurements in the two transmitters? 
>Gary said something about the source voltage for the zener 
>being marginal. The zener is fed by R-64 which in turn comes 
>from the regulated 150V buss. The voltage at the other side 
>of R-64 should measure very close to 10V and be very stable. 
>Check it using the scope while keying, it should not change. 
>R-64 is a wire-wound resistor. They are generally quite 
>reliable and do not change due to age or loading. However, 
>if one of the terminals gets flaky it can go up in value. 
>Its worth measuring and should be very close to the marked 
>value. If it has increased or if the solder terminals 
>between it and the zener have developed some resistanct the 
>current drop may be enough so that the zener can not 
>regulate. Tapping on the PTO may cause some shift in 
>frequency simply because things inside move a little. 
>However if tapping produces exactly the same sort of chirp 
>you get from keying it strongly suggests a bad solder joint 
>somewhere in the voltage line to the PTO. Trace this out and 
>poke around at it. But, check the voltage at the zener end 
>of R-64 to see what is happening there.
>
>
>--
>Richard Knoppow
>Los Angeles
>WB6KBL
>dickb...@ix.netcom.com 
>


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Re: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...

[Eddy Swynar]

On 2011-08-23, at 7:47 PM, Steve Wedge wrote:

> Next is to try running an external 11V supply to the PTO.  If it still 
> warbles, I'll have to figure out how a good PTO went bad just from moving it.

Hi Steve,

I think THAT move will surely "...tell the tale" in this sad, sad exercise that 
you've been forced to go through.

It'll once & for all confirm whether, or not, the warble is due to the PTO 
inter-acting somehow with an outside circuit---and if it DOES still warble, 
well, I guess some dissecting of the PTO's innards will be the order of the day!

Please continue to keep us all posted---we can all collectively only learn, 
from the rough road you're journeying on here...

~73!~ de Eddy VE3CUI - VE3XZ

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Re: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...

[Richard Knoppow]

- Original Message - 
From: "Steve Wedge" 

To: "Ron" 
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...


completely random.  Gets worse if I tap on it, but then 
again, I'd expect some reaction when tapping it.  Now, I've 
got to find some test leads.  I'm going to turn my station 
supply down to 11V so I can still run the K3 and will power 
each PTO off this very stiff supply.


It's now obvious to me that it's either the PTO (yeah, both 
of 'em) or the regulated supply has issues.


Steve Wedge, W1ES/4

   If the PTO works in one transmitter but not the the 
other that pretty much eliminates it. Have you made 
comparitive voltage measurements in the two transmitters? 
Gary said something about the source voltage for the zener 
being marginal. The zener is fed by R-64 which in turn comes 
from the regulated 150V buss. The voltage at the other side 
of R-64 should measure very close to 10V and be very stable. 
Check it using the scope while keying, it should not change. 
R-64 is a wire-wound resistor. They are generally quite 
reliable and do not change due to age or loading. However, 
if one of the terminals gets flaky it can go up in value. 
Its worth measuring and should be very close to the marked 
value. If it has increased or if the solder terminals 
between it and the zener have developed some resistanct the 
current drop may be enough so that the zener can not 
regulate. Tapping on the PTO may cause some shift in 
frequency simply because things inside move a little. 
However if tapping produces exactly the same sort of chirp 
you get from keying it strongly suggests a bad solder joint 
somewhere in the voltage line to the PTO. Trace this out and 
poke around at it. But, check the voltage at the zener end 
of R-64 to see what is happening there.



--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles
WB6KBL
dickb...@ix.netcom.com 



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Re: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...

[Steve Wedge]

This has certainly been a challenge, complete with a couple of false 
climaxes.


Don't think I'll get much more time tonight to play with this, as my XYL 
will be home soon and we'll have to eat.


Next is to try running an external 11V supply to the PTO.  If it still 
warbles, I'll have to figure out how a good PTO went bad just from moving 
it.


I'll not jump to conclusions until I've done the experiment.

Steve Wedge, W1ES/4

"I can't complain, but sometimes I still do."
- Joe Walsh

If the above message appears, it came from Steve's Son of Laptop!
- Original Message - 
From: "john" 

To: "Steve Wedge" ; 
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...



At 07:20 PM 8/23/2011, you wrote:

.

Could the power supply be starving even though the xtal oscillator is not 
changing at all?


73,

Steve Wedge, W1ES/4




I dunno Steve, but THANK YOU for taking the time to post all this... it's 
like watching Hercule Poirot on the trail.


I'm really anxious to find out whodunnit...and I'll learn stuff to boot!

John K5MO 



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Re: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...

[Steve Wedge]

completely random.  Gets worse if I tap on it, but then again, I'd expect some 
reaction when tapping it.  Now, I've got to find some test leads.  I'm going to 
turn my station supply down to 11V so I can still run the K3 and will power 
each PTO off this very stiff supply.

It's now obvious to me that it's either the PTO (yeah, both of 'em) or the 
regulated supply has issues.

Steve Wedge, W1ES/4

"I can't complain, but sometimes I still do."
- Joe Walsh

If the above message appears, it came from Steve's Son of Laptop!
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ron 
  To: Steve Wedge 
  Cc: drakelist@zerobeat.net 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 7:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...


Steve,
Is the chirping "clocked" or more "free running" in nature?

Ron

--- On Tue, 8/23/11, Steve Wedge  wrote:


      From: Steve Wedge 
  Subject: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...
  To: drakelist@zerobeat.net
  Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 7:20 PM


  ...circling around and around...

  Moved the (new) filter caps up out of the way and grounded them to 
the grounding stud on the rear panel.  Chirp, chirp, chirp!  Up - down - up - 
down, chirp!

  Monitored Lo @ 18.1 MHz on my K3 - solid signal even while the R-4A 
was happily chirping away...

  Monitored PTO on the K3 - chirp, chirp, etc...

  Disconnected everything from the PTO... Chirp, chirp on the K3...

  Put in a 10V zener to get voltage to solid 10.2V.  Chirp!

  When it wobbles and chirps, I see the trace of the 10V line on the 
scope change.  It doesn't drop or increase - it's just a change in the ripple, 
apparently.  If I tap the chassis under the PTO, I can make it wobble and 
chirp.  I'm not really understanding this in that this PTO is the one that was 
working great in the T-4XB.

  Could the power supply be starving even though the xtal oscillator is 
not changing at all?

  73,

  Steve Wedge, W1ES/4

  "I can't complain, but sometimes I still do."
  - Joe Walsh

  If the above message appears, it came from Steve's Son of Laptop!

  -Inline Attachment Follows-


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Re: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...

[john]

At 07:20 PM 8/23/2011, you wrote:

.

Could the power supply be starving even though the xtal oscillator is not 
changing at all?


73,

Steve Wedge, W1ES/4




I dunno Steve, but THANK YOU for taking the time to post all this... it's 
like watching Hercule Poirot on the trail.


I'm really anxious to find out whodunnit...and I'll learn stuff to boot!

John K5MO 



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Re: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...

[Ron]

Steve,
Is the chirping "clocked" or more "free running" in nature?

Ron

--- On Tue, 8/23/11, Steve Wedge  wrote:

From: Steve Wedge 
Subject: [Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...
To: drakelist@zerobeat.net
Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 7:20 PM



 
 

...circling around and around...
 
Moved the (new) filter caps up out of the way and 
grounded them to the grounding stud on the rear panel.  Chirp, chirp, 
chirp!  Up - down - up - down, chirp!
 
Monitored Lo @ 18.1 MHz on my K3 - solid signal 
even while the R-4A was happily chirping away...
 
Monitored PTO on the K3 - chirp, chirp, 
etc...
 
Disconnected everything from the PTO... Chirp, 
chirp on the K3...
 
Put in a 10V zener to get voltage to solid 
10.2V.  Chirp!
 
When it wobbles and chirps, I see the trace of the 
10V line on the scope change.  It doesn't drop or increase - it's just a 
change in the ripple, apparently.  If I tap the chassis under the PTO, I 
can make it wobble and chirp.  I'm not really understanding this in that 
this PTO is the one that was working great in the T-4XB.
 
Could the power supply be starving even though the 
xtal oscillator is not changing at all?
 
73,
 
Steve Wedge, W1ES/4
 
"I can't complain, but sometimes I still do."
- 
Joe Walsh
 
If the above message appears, it came from Steve's 
Son of Laptop!
-Inline Attachment Follows-

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[Drakelist] I feel like a buzzard...

[Steve Wedge]

...circling around and around...

Moved the (new) filter caps up out of the way and grounded them to the 
grounding stud on the rear panel.  Chirp, chirp, chirp!  Up - down - up - down, 
chirp!

Monitored Lo @ 18.1 MHz on my K3 - solid signal even while the R-4A was happily 
chirping away...

Monitored PTO on the K3 - chirp, chirp, etc...

Disconnected everything from the PTO... Chirp, chirp on the K3...

Put in a 10V zener to get voltage to solid 10.2V.  Chirp!

When it wobbles and chirps, I see the trace of the 10V line on the scope 
change.  It doesn't drop or increase - it's just a change in the ripple, 
apparently.  If I tap the chassis under the PTO, I can make it wobble and 
chirp.  I'm not really understanding this in that this PTO is the one that was 
working great in the T-4XB.

Could the power supply be starving even though the xtal oscillator is not 
changing at all?

73,

Steve Wedge, W1ES/4

"I can't complain, but sometimes I still do."
- Joe Walsh

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