RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Mirage BD-35
Gene, I have been using two BD35's for a long time now, both with analog FM as well as with D-STAR, and it works fine. I usually set the HT to low power, and then let the BD35 make the juice. Range depends on antenna, height and so on, but it should do at least 50 miles. Cheers, Fred PA4YBR/KA4YBR From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of genedathe Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 3:05 PM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Mirage BD-35 Hello All: I've heard it said that with the Mirage BD-35 D-Star will outrange plain old FM. If that is so I'll look into getting one. But before spending my moldy money, I would like some first hand reports from Mirage users: What is the greatest distance you've been able to get into a repeater with? 73 de NAØG Gene [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Mirage BD-35
A 35 watt amp on what? If you going from 4 watts to 35 you will see a lot less drop out how ever at 2 meters once you get to the horizon your gone analog or digital [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Mirage BD-35
Although the BD35 is supposed to key with 300 mW input, I've heard of IC-91 owners having problem with the 0.5W setting failing to do that. The IC-80 and IC-92 have a 2.5 watt "middle" setting. On Jul 10, 2009, at 5:06 AM, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > Gene, > > I have been using two BD35's for a long time now, both with analog > FM as > well as with D-STAR, and it works fine. I usually set the HT to low >
[DSTAR_DIGITAL] ICOM D-Star Contest
D-Star contest has been announced. Got this in an email. http://www.icom.co.jp/world/d-contest/ Greg
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Mirage BD-35
I have used it with most of my HT's at 500mW, and that works fine. I indeed do seem to remember some problems when using it at UL (extra-low, 100mW) power levels! Cheers, Fred From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of AB8XA Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 1:11 PM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Mirage BD-35 Although the BD35 is supposed to key with 300 mW input, I've heard of IC-91 owners having problem with the 0.5W setting failing to do that. The IC-80 and IC-92 have a 2.5 watt "middle" setting. On Jul 10, 2009, at 5:06 AM, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > Gene, > > I have been using two BD35's for a long time now, both with analog > FM as > well as with D-STAR, and it works fine. I usually set the HT to low >
[OffTopic] RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] USB Dongle
Art, I just tried to reply to your other question (the one you sent to my web site), but I get it back because your mail server says my mail server is spamming... Cheers, Fred PA4YBR From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of JA1OGS (Art) Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 3:33 AM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] USB Dongle Hi Im new in this group, I like to know is there and homebrew project. To built you own USB D-Star Dongle ? regards Art [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: new to the group
> >repeater would, PLUS. The PLUS is the ability to send slow speed data and > >voice over the same links, even at the same time. So it actually combines > both the low speed data services (for text, imaging, small file Other than occasional unidirectional (please don't beacon) GPS reports, DStar DV slow speed data at what, 900 baud or so, is about as useful as smoke and mirrors for any practical data transfer purpose, Emcomm or otherwise (DRats is interesting, not useful). Moreover, you cannot transmit slow speed data and voice simultaneously (except for GPS and your 20 character pre-programmed text message). DD data might be useful (are there any existing Emcomm software apps?), but how many of you have ID-1's? Let's be objective here... 73 -- John
[DSTAR_DIGITAL] I'm a bad ham, eh?
On Jul 8, 2009, at 1:55 PM, k7ve wrote: > Do you (the reader) want to be part of the solution and future or > grumble and keep the hobby stagnant and on a path to death? I guess in your eyes, those of us who can't or choose not to afford Icom's grossly inflated D-Star products will be the death of the hobby and hence aren't good hams, eh? No sir, it's the snobbery of big buck equipment owners such as that you expressed which will kill the hobby. Let me be perfectly clear that I am NOT addressing all those here who have chosen to spend the bucks for D-Star--only those who denigrate those who don't. > D-STAR is not expensive. The facts contradict you. I'm an all-Icom owner, IC-718, IC-208H, IC- T7H, and now IC-91AD, but have to admit, Yaesu is the better bang for the buck, even compared to Icom's analog products. If Icom really cares for D-Star, THEY will quit holding it back by grossly overpricing it compared to their own analog products, much less others. You have bashed Yaesu and Kenwood but they're still selling new analog radios (as is Icom), and their affordability is doing far more to get new hams on the air than the overpriced whiz-bang technology of D-Star. FT-60R $189.95 Dual-band, single-watch HT http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0060.html VX-6R $229.95 Tri-band, single-watch HT http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0666.html VX-7R Tri-band, dual-watch HT $287.95 http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0777.html IC-91A Dual-band, dual-watch HT $294.95 http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0091.html IC-91AD Dual-band, dual-watch, D-Star HT $369.98 http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0091.html IC-80AD New dual-band, dual-watch, D-Star HT $449.95 http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/5180.html IC-92AD Dual-band, dual-watch, D-Start HT $539.95 http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/5092.html Single watch mobile (Icom to Icom): Icom IC-208H $299.95 - $20 rebate http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/0208.html Icom ID-880H $499.95 http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/0880.html Dual watch mobile/: Yaesu FT-8900 $409.95 http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/0890.html Icom IC-2820 with UT-123 $519.95 + $259.95 = $779.85 http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/2820.html http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/2820dprs.html No sir, as long as Icom has apologists such as yourself rationalizing their high prices, they'll never come down to earth and become mainstream. > Amateurs will eventually migrate to digital for VHF/UHF repeaters. Maybe, but that's far from being the case now. It's your dream. > I imagine that at some point, not soon, the ratio of digital VHF/UHF > operations to analog FM will be similar to the ratio of SSB to AM > transmissions on HF. Imagine/dream all you want, but the ratios are currently the opposite of your imagination--and will be so for a very long time, since sales of new radios, which is the only thing that will change the ratios, are still strongly on the analog side. > Alinco - possibilities here for D-STAR radios. A dream, not reality. It's as equally likely the Hyundai/Kia of VHF/ UHF will establish their own low-priced digital mode that will become more popular than D-Star. > There are non-Icom D-STAR components coming out shortly. More to dream about..a glimmer of hope. Sir, while in your eyes, you may be promoting D-Star, your rant (the one you keep quoting yourself in follow-up messages) is probably doing it more harm than good. -- 73 de Moe
[DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: Mirage BD-35
--- In dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com, "genedathe" wrote: > > Hello All: > > I've heard it said that with the Mirage BD-35 D-Star will outrange plain old > FM. If that is so I'll look into getting one. But before spending my moldy > money, I would like some first hand reports from Mirage users: > > What is the greatest distance you've been able to get into a repeater with? > > 73 de NAØG Gene > I have 3 D-STAR machines nearby (NJ2DG, W2DGL, K2DIG). Running barefoot going into a Maldol HVU-8 I can just barely make it into the machines. Putting the BD-35 in-line not only I can easily hit those machines but a couple of others further afield. Definitely worth the expense. It also makes a big difference when you work simplex as well. FYI the 3 "local" machines are anywhere from 20-35mi from my station. 73, Greg / KF2M
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Blind D-STAR User
Matt While I don't think you will be able to reach the Orlando or Lakeland D-Star repeaters. In addition to the K1XC Orlando Repeater, the Orlando Amateur Radio Club is in the process of building the W4PLB D-Star repeaters on 145.150 -600 and 442.300 +5Mhz located in Northern Seminole County. It is located in Sanford, FL at I4 and SR46. At present it is on a Temporary frequency of 146.970 and not connected to the Gateway. For details see: http://www.oarc.org/Repeaters.html We are hoping to get the 2M up and running on 145.150 (on the Gateway) in the next few weeks. For now try to see I you can access it on 146.970. VRY 73 Bob Cumming W2BZY President and Repeater Chairman Orlando Amateur Radio Club At 06:53 PM 7/8/2009, you wrote: >I am a new member of the group, and new to D-STAR. We don't have a >repeater in the Daytona Beach area, but several ham friends of mine >have radios, and I decided to get one anyway. The way I see it, if >enough of us get radios, a repeater will be put up. >Since I'm blind, I have a couple questions about my radio of choice. I >am getting the Icom IC-80AD. >I know the radio will beep if you have key beeps enabled. Does the >radio beep differently when selecting power levels? ON my Kenwood >radios, a low beep indicates high power, and the other power levels are >signaled by high beeps. >Using the programming software, can you program the VFO on both bands? >What I would like to do is set the VFO to a certain frequency, PL tone >etc. I know I could use the keypad to set the frequency, but it looks >like you need to go in to the menu to set PL tones. If I knew exactly >what keys to press, I could set the tones, but need a starting point. >Not all repeaters broadcast the tone, so tone scan won't always work. >If I know a D-STAR repeater is on a frequency, but I don't know the >call sign, will my radio figure it out if I put it on the frequency? I >can always go on the computer, an put in the gateway callsign if there is one >Are there any tips anyone can give me about this radio? > >-- >Matt Roberts >Port Orange Florida >407-415-5333 >Skype: blindbiker >Amateur Radio N9GMR >IRLP Node 4515 >Echolink 45153 >Your life experience is what you create! You can be do or have anything >you want! > >Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: new to the group
I personally think john that there might be more out there than one would think. From: john_ke5c To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 10:14:16 AM Subject: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: new to the group > >repeater would, PLUS. The PLUS is the ability to send slow speed data and > >voice over the same links, even at the same time. So it actually combines > both the low speed data services (for text, imaging, small file Other than occasional unidirectional (please don't beacon) GPS reports, DStar DV slow speed data at what, 900 baud or so, is about as useful as smoke and mirrors for any practical data transfer purpose, Emcomm or otherwise (DRats is interesting, not useful). Moreover, you cannot transmit slow speed data and voice simultaneously (except for GPS and your 20 character pre-programmed text message). DD data might be useful (are there any existing Emcomm software apps?), but how many of you have ID-1's? Let's be objective here... 73 -- John [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: I'm a bad ham, eh? No!
--- In dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com, AB8XA wrote: > > > On Jul 8, 2009, at 1:55 PM, k7ve wrote: > > > Do you (the reader) want to be part of the solution and future or > > grumble and keep the hobby stagnant and on a path to death? > > I guess in your eyes, those of us who can't or choose not to afford > Icom's grossly inflated D-Star products will be the death of the hobby > and hence aren't good hams, eh? No sir, it's the snobbery of big buck > equipment owners such as that you expressed which will kill the > hobby. Let me be perfectly clear that I am NOT addressing all those > here who have chosen to spend the bucks for D-Star--only those who > denigrate those who don't. Nobody denigrated anyone here. D-STAR equipment from Icom costs more than analog equipment, no argument, but comparing apples to oranges doesn't prove anything. Grossly inflated just doesn't hold up. The hobby has stagnated, with a few exceptions (QRP and new interest in CW now that its not required come to mind), and continues to do so -- doing something new and interesting to the younger crowd (I'm 54, BTW - been a ham since I was 18 with one short gap due to up or out license rules of the 70s) it will die in its stagnation. Digital has more to offer than analog. > > > D-STAR is not expensive. > > The facts contradict you. I'm an all-Icom owner, IC-718, IC-208H, IC- > T7H, and now IC-91AD, but have to admit, Yaesu is the better bang for > the buck, even compared to Icom's analog products. If Icom really > cares for D-Star, THEY will quit holding it back by grossly > overpricing it compared to their own analog products, much less > others. You have bashed Yaesu and Kenwood but they're still selling > new analog radios (as is Icom), and their affordability is doing far > more to get new hams on the air than the overpriced whiz-bang > technology of D-Star. Kenwood is barely in the amateur business anymore. At least they offer a D-STAR radio in Japan (OEM Icom). I own several Yaesu pieces of equipment, including 3 HF rigs and 2 VX7Rs (1 of which is broken unfortunately) - I like Yaesu but it does not change the fact they have little interest in pursuing D-STAR - I also like that they don't gouge you on replacement parts. > > FT-60R $189.95 Dual-band, single-watch HT > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0060.html > NO D-STAR PATH > VX-6R $229.95 Tri-band, single-watch HT > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0666.html > NO D-STAR PATH > VX-7R Tri-band, dual-watch HT $287.95 > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0777.html > NO D-STAR PATH > IC-91A Dual-band, dual-watch HT $294.95 > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0091.html > > IC-91AD Dual-band, dual-watch, D-Star HT $369.98 > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/0091.html > D-STAR for $75.03 more than analog - the AMBE Chip and GMSK chip each cost over $20 (around $45 for the pair, plus the support chips, PCB, etc. - a little markup for Icom and some for the dealer) -- pretty darn reasonable I think. > IC-80AD New dual-band, dual-watch, D-Star HT $449.95 > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/5180.html > New radio, which is single watch by the way -- brand new models are typically more expensive than those that have recouped the R&D expense. If its too much, buy a 91AD. > IC-92AD Dual-band, dual-watch, D-Start HT $539.95 > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/5092.html I've been told Icom didn't think this would be a widely appealing radio, its specifically designed for EMCOMM types - You are paying a lot for the water proofing and mil-spec design. > > Single watch mobile (Icom to Icom): > > Icom IC-208H $299.95 - $20 rebate > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/0208.html > NO D-STAR PATH (except using 9600 baud packet port and external components, which will probably run you about $200 and a lot of bailing wire and tape) > Icom ID-880H $499.95 > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/0880.html > > Dual watch mobile/: > Single watch --- actually and $200 more than its cousin the 208H - at least $50-100 more in components plus development costs. Not really a bad price for digital. > Yaesu FT-8900 $409.95 > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/0890.html > NO D-STAR PATH (except using 9600 baud packet port and external components, which will probably run you about $200 and a lot of bailing wire and tape) > Icom IC-2820 with UT-123 $519.95 + $259.95 = $779.85 > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/2820.html > http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/fm_txvrs/2820dprs.html > This is a bit pricier radio, I got mine when they were much newer and about $120 - $150 more. But it does have a lot of technology, not only integrated D-STAR but GPS as well. > No sir, as long as Icom has apologists such as yourself rationalizing > their high prices, they'll never come down to earth and become > mainstream.
[DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DV Dongle For Sale
Please note that I meant to state that I will only ship to USA or Canada addresses. --- In dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com, "waltw1" wrote: > > Brand new. > > I won it a few weeks ago at the Atlanta Hamfest. > > Registered and set it up last week. Works fine. Box includes dongle, usb > cable and the instructions. > > Anyone that knows me, can confirm that I am an HF, qrp, psk type ham. > > Please contact me by e-mail if you are interested. > > Walt kj4he >
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: I'm a bad ham, eh? No!
hey ya know what! I LOVE my 92AD and my 2820H both with DSTAR and if you have no interest in DSTAR then why are you here?? Also when it comes to price it is Icom's ball field THEY did the R&D they info is out there but Kenwood Yaesu and Alinco have said they are NOT ready to consider the jump. that is there LOSS Jack Foster N6UYB/4
[DSTAR_DIGITAL] Technical Repeater Question
Hello from the WU5PIG DStar repeater system where we have a strange issue. When attempting to link our system to a reflector using a radio we get an error message, "DStar system currently busy." If I attept to unlink from a reflector using a radio the message is, "system not currently linked." Both our system admin pages and DPlus control panel are accessable via the internet and WU5PIG shows up on the DNS list from the trust server so to me the internet side appears to be right. I have stopped and restarted the DStar and DPlus services on the gateway with no success. My next step will be to shut down the entire system including the controller, and bring it all back up. However, before taking that step I would like to hear other thoughts about the in ability to now link reflectors and the "system currently busy" error. This system has worked in the recent past so something has changed? 73 de W5EN Steve Sys Admin WU5PIG DStar System [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Mirage BD-35
yes it works well. I have one (AI4UE) and Don WD4CWE has my other one, we very happy with it. Drive by IC 91AD, you reach us on the AK4G dstar repeater. link in AK4EG_CL On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 9:04 AM, genedathe wrote: > > > Hello All: > > I've heard it said that with the Mirage BD-35 D-Star will outrange plain > old FM. If that is so I'll look into getting one. But before spending my > moldy money, I would like some first hand reports from Mirage users: > > What is the greatest distance you've been able to get into a repeater with? > > 73 de NAØG Gene > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: new to the group
D-STAR, compared to an equivalent analog system (e.g. comparing standalone repeaters to FM repeaters, and simplex to simplex), offers both the low speed data services (for text, imaging, small file transfer, messaging), and increased range, compared to FM. All in all, it's a pretty compelling package, when you look at it objectively. All D-STAR needs now is: -->First, there is literally no increased range. Do the math, look at the required signal strength required at the receiver to reliably decode packets and produce error free voice. Compare that value with your traditional analog FM repeater receiver. Guess what, very much the same. No magic here, this is just RF. On the bench, side by side, you require a particular measurable signal strength to open the receiver and produce reliable voice. There is no magic in GMSK that provides recoverable audio where FM does not. The difference is perception of noise. When the signals are compared on the edge, at the same signal level, the FM gets noisy and the GMSK is quiet. Push a bit farther and the FM gets very noisy, and the GMSK goes into R2D2 and is unintelligible. -->Second, the fact that data is available at the same time is neat.if you need it. If you are actually running an EMCOMM net and sending valuable files back and forth simultaneously and seamlessly on the same channel, I'd love to see it. The truth is, the data stream supports voice and slow speed data. If the need is for me to key up for 1 minute and tell Net Control my story AND transmit a file to him simultaneously, it works cool. However, that is rarely the need. Well, tests done here have seen 120 mile and longer paths achieved on D-STAR, that were not possible on FM. The test repeater at that site would literally allow a QSO between stations over 200 miles apart. This is _demonstrated_ performance. Keep in mind that there are no such things as 1' mountains down here (highest in the country is a little over 7200'), best you'll get is around half of that for a repeater site (and this particular mountain was probably nearer 3000'). On VHF, the D-STAR repeater on the other side of town is much easier to access than the 2m FM repeaters in the same area. Best range is (obviously) while stationary, but mobile performance here has been on a par with FM. --> Awesome. Sounds like your analog repeaters need a tune up. I've been able to demonstrate exactly the opposite in my terrain. So.who is right? Here is the deal, go pick up some GMRS handhelds at the store and look at the 14 mile range they claim. Can they do it? You bet, line of site, no interference, mountaintop to mountain top. Want to guess what they get in town walking around between the buildings? It ain't 14 miles :-) We pushed 1200 DD ID-1 connectivity over 70 miles. Line of sight, hilltop to hilltop, worked awesome. Same equipment, in town, not line of sight..less than one mile. "demonstrated". I personally have heard good signals over paths I know I was not able to work on FM, without taking extreme measures, such as using a band that handled the terrain better (i.e. using 6m instead of 2m to get over a mountain in the way). Our experience here is that mobile coverage quite variable compared to FM (sometimes better, sometimes worse - suspect it's dependent on how much flutter there is), base station coverage significantly exceeds that of FM. Looks like we're in markedly different environments to get such different results. ==> Again this begs the question about how well your analog stuff is working. There is no magic in the GMSK that makes it perform better than analog, except the fact that it is digital. Remember analog cell phones? When it was on the edge, you got noise and static. Then they went digital. Did the range increase because of the different mode? Nope, it's RF. What did change is the 'noise' went away and when you were on the fringe you got garbled or no audio. The short answer.digital modulation (GMSK in this case) is different than analog, but the 'transport' is still the same. >-->Hmmm..you do get NOAA weather alerts over your D-Star repeater? We do on >analog. You get site telemetry (battery voltage, VSWR, etc.) over your >D-star? We do with analog. You have remote control of any of the site I don't see why D-STAR couldn't do those things. Someone has to write the apps to do this, just like someone had to write the code that allows your FM repeater to "speak" this telemetry. ==> It could, it just doesn't, and may never do it. Believe me, I'm not opposed to D-star, I have a VHF repeater, mobiles, portables and several ID-1's we use for linking. What IS frustrating is the 'hype' that it is somehow 'superior' to analog because it magically draws in signals that can't be done with analog. Haven't been able to duplicate that on the bench or in the field. 73 Daron N7HQR [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: new to the group
Other than occasional unidirectional (please don't beacon) GPS reports, DStar DV slow speed data at what, 900 baud or so, is about as useful as smoke and mirrors for any practical data transfer purpose, Emcomm or otherwise (DRats is interesting, not useful). Moreover, you cannot transmit slow speed data and voice simultaneously (except for GPS and your 20 character pre-programmed text message). DD data might be useful (are there any existing Emcomm software apps?), but how many of you have ID-1's? Let's be objective here... 73 - John ==> D-rats has made the slow speed data portion actually usable, if you don't know how to use it, that's unfortunate, but not the fault of the product. The ability to do file transfers with error correction, email forwarding, etc. is what makes the slow speed data somewhat usable. Without software, it's a lame data pipe. The fact that the product allows simultaneous voice and data (moreover, it requires simultaneous voice and data packets in the data stream) does not mean that is particularly useful for anything without some software. ==> As far as DD, the ID-1 is simply a bridge. We have several, point to point we've pushed it 70+ miles with 64kb of throughput. If you need ethernet between two places, this is a great solution. I've found little use for the 1200 data access point (it is NOT a repeater). 73 Daron N7HQR [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: I'm a bad ham, eh? No!
John .. The problem is when we are told we are killing the hobby . I for one want to see D-star work but for me it does nothing for MY needs and would go unused .. I was more than 40 years ago on 6 and 2 FM back when much of what we had was tube ... I STILL HAVE AND IT WORKS my Standard 146 bought about 1970 .. $400 for a rock bound radio with no tone board. This is back when the photo on QRZ showing my station built from WW2 surplus was STILL in use ... No rational HAM wants to see any mode fail and if they do then THEY are killing the hobby Bruce On 6 since 66 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: new to the group
At 01:50 AM 7/11/2009, you wrote: >-->First, there is literally no increased range. Do the math, look at the >required signal strength required at the receiver to reliably decode packets >and produce error free voice. Compare that value with your traditional >analog FM repeater receiver. Guess what, very much the same. No magic Do some real world tests, side by side. I've seen an improvement in _useable_ range when switching from FM to D-STAR, and in some cases, repeater access on paths where FM is not viable (insufficient quieting to open the repeater's mute). The improvement for fixed stations is particularly significant. Mobile results vary (especially on 2 metres), due to the effects of multipath flutter, and can be better or worse than FM, depending on the local environment. I'm not talking theory here, but observations, both my own and those of others in areas I've known for 20 years (RF wise). >here, this is just RF. On the bench, side by side, you require a particular >measurable signal strength to open the receiver and produce reliable voice. >There is no magic in GMSK that provides recoverable audio where FM does not. >The difference is perception of noise. When the signals are compared on the >edge, at the same signal level, the FM gets noisy and the GMSK is quiet. >Push a bit farther and the FM gets very noisy, and the GMSK goes into R2D2 >and is unintelligible. True. The question is whether the FM gets too noisy or the GMSK goes R2D2 first. In many cases, it's the FM that becomes too difficult to use first. I'm not sure at what BER the R2D2 on D-STAR becomes a problem. I suspect it's somewhat higher than the BER (1%?) that the receiver sensitivity is specified at. The FEC that AMBE uses is very effective at producing readable audio under adverse conditions. >--> Awesome. Sounds like your analog repeaters need a tune up. I've been >able to demonstrate exactly the opposite in my terrain. So.who is right? Different terrain, no doubt. There are large areas of relatively flat plains in parts of the state. I'm in the middle of one of those plains (the basalt plains of Melbourne's west), and to the north of the mountains, the plains extend very far. That's probably one of the reasons. The same results have also been observed on simplex too. Does the radio "detune" itself when switching modes? ;) >Here is the deal, go pick up some GMRS handhelds at the store and look at >the 14 mile range they claim. Can they do it? You bet, line of site, no >interference, mountaintop to mountain top. Want to guess what they get in >town walking around between the buildings? It ain't 14 miles :-) We pushed >1200 DD ID-1 connectivity over 70 miles. Line of sight, hilltop to hilltop, >worked awesome. Same equipment, in town, not line of sight..less than one >mile. "demonstrated". Again, different terrain. I could take you out of town and get that 14 mile range. I'm sure it would be possible on the Hay plains (where an ant hill is the highest "mountain"). I can go the other way and get 50 or more miles out of those handhelds, if I went up a mountain. If you launched one onto a satellite, try 1000 miles. Range is relative to path, so your argument doesn't mean much, unless you're going to compare D-STAR and FM on the same path. You've had some poor results with D-STAR. Assuming all other things are equal (most equal is to use the same radios and switch modes), that suggests some environmental factor, and usually multipath is the culprit. >==> Again this begs the question about how well your analog stuff is >working. There is no magic in the GMSK that makes it perform better than Well, the analog performance is taken over a 20 year period, and a number of the repeaters had been overhauled in that time. >analog, except the fact that it is digital. Remember analog cell phones? >When it was on the edge, you got noise and static. Then they went digital. >Did the range increase because of the different mode? Nope, it's RF. What Apples and oranges. Power, cell size, etc. Here, we went analog, then GSM (still using it), then CDMA came along (now defunct), and now 3G. Each is to different to compare. >did change is the 'noise' went away and when you were on the fringe you got >garbled or no audio. The short answer.digital modulation (GMSK in this >case) is different than analog, but the 'transport' is still the same. It's a matter of which processing chain does the better job (16 kHz wide FM and human ears, or 6-7 kHz wide GMSK and AMBE with FEC). Throw in the usual collection of misaligned audio on the analog side (too soft, too loud, etc). All bets are off. :) There is an obvious 3dB advantage on the D-STAR side though, if you look at these figures. No magic, just bandwidth. > >-->Hmmm..you do get NOAA weather alerts over your D-Star repeater? We do on > >analog. You get site telemetry (battery voltage, VSWR, etc.) over you
[DSTAR_DIGITAL] more questions
Hi everyone, Another question that comes to mind is this...Absent any voice repeaters or DD repeaters can one still do D-chat and file transfer if both have an ID-1? I have just added to my equipment list an ID-1. Thougts anyone on my question? 73, Ben KØBLR
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] more questions
D-chat is a DV Data mode application that goes with the voice side of the ID-1. If you have ID-1s and sufficient path, you probably would be better served by using DD mode for file transfer, including email, etc., which should be around 100+ times faster, using a variety of programs and protocols including the possibility of drag and drop FTP. This works on simplex or through the gateway to remote facilities. There are no DD mode repeaters. The RP2D is an access point to give field located ID-1s access to Ethernet connected services through the gateway (such as Internet, email, web applications, FTP, etc.) or LAN, it does not directly repeat ID-1 traffic back to RF. DD = 128 kbps Ethernet bridge (about 150khz wide channel) DV = 4.8 kbps signal, which includes 1.2 kbps available for "data" (D- Chat, D-RATS, etc.) in a 6.25 khz. wide channel. On Jul 10, 2009, at 4:43 PM, Ben Ramler wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, > > Another question that comes to mind is this...Absent any voice > repeaters or DD repeaters can one still do D-chat and file transfer > if both have an ID-1? I have just added to my equipment list an ID-1. > > Thougts anyone on my question? > > 73, > > Ben KØBLR > > __. John Hays Amateur Radio: K7VE j...@hays.org [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] more questions
okI think I get it 73 and thanks John, Ben From: John Hays To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 7:16:58 PM Subject: Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] more questions D-chat is a DV Data mode application that goes with the voice side of the ID-1. If you have ID-1s and sufficient path, you probably would be better served by using DD mode for file transfer, including email, etc., which should be around 100+ times faster, using a variety of programs and protocols including the possibility of drag and drop FTP. This works on simplex or through the gateway to remote facilities. There are no DD mode repeaters. The RP2D is an access point to give field located ID-1s access to Ethernet connected services through the gateway (such as Internet, email, web applications, FTP, etc.) or LAN, it does not directly repeat ID-1 traffic back to RF. DD = 128 kbps Ethernet bridge (about 150khz wide channel) DV = 4.8 kbps signal, which includes 1.2 kbps available for "data" (D- Chat, D-RATS, etc.) in a 6.25 khz. wide channel. On Jul 10, 2009, at 4:43 PM, Ben Ramler wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, > > Another question that comes to mind is this...Absent any voice > repeaters or DD repeaters can one still do D-chat and file transfer > if both have an ID-1? I have just added to my equipment list an ID-1. > > Thougts anyone on my question? > > 73, > > Ben KØBLR > > __. John Hays Amateur Radio: K7VE j...@hays.org [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[DSTAR_DIGITAL] RP2D
Hi group, One more question then I will stop! Does anyone know if the RP2D can operate on its own without the need for a controller? that will be my last question for a while I think? 73, Ben K0BLR
