RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH
All I sometimes get when I do talks about it, is "What's the point?! Why bother?" After a few extra questions and further exploration into their supposed disbelief, it usually comes out at the end; "after all, its too expensive..." I think jealousy is a prevailing trait with many, that is, until one day they pop up on the mode... Neil G7EBY.
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH
The pace of change in the world is incredible and it continues to increase. For a lot of people, especially those who have been able to live much of their lives in a relatively stable niche, complacency adds stability. D-Star is very different and for that reason alone makes many people uncomfortable. As I've promoted D-Star, I've discovered that some Hams don't care what it can do, they just don't like it. No amount of rational explanation about technology and the usefulness of its features will overcome a purely emotional resistance. In such cases, I've discovered that my time is more productive focusing on people who are interested, but need additional information. Bert KE4FOV From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 4:33 AM All I sometimes get when I do talks about it, is "What's the point?! Why bother?" After a few extra questions and further exploration into their supposed disbelief, it usually comes out at the end; "after all, its too expensive..." I think jealousy is a prevailing trait with many, that is, until one day they pop up on the mode... Neil G7EBY.
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH
At 01:02 AM 5/17/2010, you wrote: >The pace of change in the world is incredible and it continues to >increase. For a lot of people, especially those who have been able >to live much of their lives in a relatively stable niche, >complacency adds stability. D-Star is very different and for that >reason alone makes many people uncomfortable. For me, it's the opposite. The rapid changes in D-STAR is what I find exciting. :) > >As I've promoted D-Star, I've discovered that some Hams don't care >what it can do, they just don't like it. No amount of rational >explanation about technology and the usefulness of its features will >overcome a purely emotional resistance. In such cases, I've >discovered that my time is more productive focusing on people who >are interested, but need additional information. Definitely. It's like the old saying "Never teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and annoys the pig". Trying to convert those with emotional resistance to D-STAR is just as pointless, they won't budge, and will dig in harder. However, in time, some of these people will eventually come around in their own time, as people around them migrate to D-STAR, or they discover that it can be a lot of fun. As you say, it's best to focus on the interested who are looking for more information, or those who haven't got much awareness of D-STAR at all. 73 de VK3JED / VK3IRL http://vkradio.com
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH
What I can say is that I spent the entire weekend at Dayton talking to people about D-STAR. There were a lot of people who had interest in it. I'm pretty sure that after stopping by and hearing about it, a number of folks went home with a D-STAR radio. There were a large number of folks who dropped by the booth. I only had 1 or 2 of the classic "negative" hams. This is great, because the number has dropped over the years. At this point, we've now got answers to most of the negative questions. There are number of manufacturers making equipment for D-STAR. We can make a non D-STAR radio a D-STAR radio, and we now have approved non-Icom repeaters that can be connected to the network. There will always be those who don't want to hear about D-STAR. That's okay. There's no rule in ham radio that everyone has to do everything. We have HFers that have never been above 50 MHz and folks who have never been below it. We've got folks who work people that live on the earth, and we've got people who talk to satellites, even the moon. But there are still a lot of people who don't know what D-STAR is and we need to work at making sure that we at least get the word out. Ed WA4YIH From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 4:33 AM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH All I sometimes get when I do talks about it, is "What's the point?! Why bother?" After a few extra questions and further exploration into their supposed disbelief, it usually comes out at the end; "after all, its too expensive..." I think jealousy is a prevailing trait with many, that is, until one day they pop up on the mode... Neil G7EBY.
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH
FWIW, Im still a bit skeptical, but I did lay down my money for an ID-880H several months ago. Were due to have a new repeater installed at a Georgia Public TV site nearby and Im anxiously awaiting an opportunity to have my skepticism proven wrong! I honestly hope that D-STAR works as advertised when the big one comes because itll be a huge tool for our toolbox. Of course, I hope analog repeaters remain on the scene for a long time to come too. 73, Mike WM4B _ From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Woodrick, Ed Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 8:33 PM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH What I can say is that I spent the entire weekend at Dayton talking to people about D-STAR. There were a lot of people who had interest in it. Im pretty sure that after stopping by and hearing about it, a number of folks went home with a D-STAR radio. There were a large number of folks who dropped by the booth. I only had 1 or 2 of the classic negative hams. This is great, because the number has dropped over the years. At this point, weve now got answers to most of the negative questions. There are number of manufacturers making equipment for D-STAR. We can make a non D-STAR radio a D-STAR radio, and we now have approved non-Icom repeaters that can be connected to the network. There will always be those who dont want to hear about D-STAR. Thats okay. Theres no rule in ham radio that everyone has to do everything. We have HFers that have never been above 50 MHz and folks who have never been below it. Weve got folks who work people that live on the earth, and weve got people who talk to satellites, even the moon. But there are still a lot of people who dont know what D-STAR is and we need to work at making sure that we at least get the word out. Ed WA4YIH From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 4:33 AM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH All I sometimes get when I do talks about it, is "What's the point?! Why bother?" After a few extra questions and further exploration into their supposed disbelief, it usually comes out at the end; "after all, its too expensive..." I think jealousy is a prevailing trait with many, that is, until one day they pop up on the mode... Neil G7EBY.
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH
Don't forget that you don't have to wait for the Georgia PBS Network to come on line, there's nothing keeping any individuals or repeater groups from putting other repeaters online in Georgia. There's also the DVDongle, DVAP, and hotspots that can be used to access the network. Ed WA4YIH From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Besemer (WM4B) Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 8:41 PM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH FWIW, I'm still a bit skeptical, but I did lay down my money for an ID-880H several months ago. We're due to have a new repeater installed at a Georgia Public TV site nearby and I'm anxiously awaiting an opportunity to have my skepticism proven wrong! I honestly hope that D-STAR works as advertised when 'the big one' comes because it'll be a huge tool for our toolbox. Of course, I hope analog repeaters remain on the scene for a long time to come too. 73, Mike WM4B From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Woodrick, Ed Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 8:33 PM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH What I can say is that I spent the entire weekend at Dayton talking to people about D-STAR. There were a lot of people who had interest in it. I'm pretty sure that after stopping by and hearing about it, a number of folks went home with a D-STAR radio. There were a large number of folks who dropped by the booth. I only had 1 or 2 of the classic "negative" hams. This is great, because the number has dropped over the years. At this point, we've now got answers to most of the negative questions. There are number of manufacturers making equipment for D-STAR. We can make a non D-STAR radio a D-STAR radio, and we now have approved non-Icom repeaters that can be connected to the network. There will always be those who don't want to hear about D-STAR. That's okay. There's no rule in ham radio that everyone has to do everything. We have HFers that have never been above 50 MHz and folks who have never been below it. We've got folks who work people that live on the earth, and we've got people who talk to satellites, even the moon. But there are still a lot of people who don't know what D-STAR is and we need to work at making sure that we at least get the word out. Ed WA4YIH From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 4:33 AM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH All I sometimes get when I do talks about it, is "What's the point?! Why bother?" After a few extra questions and further exploration into their supposed disbelief, it usually comes out at the end; "after all, its too expensive..." I think jealousy is a prevailing trait with many, that is, until one day they pop up on the mode... Neil G7EBY.
RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH
True, but I dont see that happening anytime soon. Weve had a big push on analog repeaters in the past few years and were about repeatered to death. Maybe somebody crazier than me will be willing to work it! As for other options Ive got a kid starting college this fall guess where all my money is going! 73, Mike WM4B _ From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Woodrick, Ed Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 9:09 PM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH Dont forget that you dont have to wait for the Georgia PBS Network to come on line, theres nothing keeping any individuals or repeater groups from putting other repeaters online in Georgia. Theres also the DVDongle, DVAP, and hotspots that can be used to access the network. Ed WA4YIH From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Besemer (WM4B) Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 8:41 PM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH FWIW, Im still a bit skeptical, but I did lay down my money for an ID-880H several months ago. Were due to have a new repeater installed at a Georgia Public TV site nearby and Im anxiously awaiting an opportunity to have my skepticism proven wrong! I honestly hope that D-STAR works as advertised when the big one comes because itll be a huge tool for our toolbox. Of course, I hope analog repeaters remain on the scene for a long time to come too. 73, Mike WM4B _ From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Woodrick, Ed Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 8:33 PM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH What I can say is that I spent the entire weekend at Dayton talking to people about D-STAR. There were a lot of people who had interest in it. Im pretty sure that after stopping by and hearing about it, a number of folks went home with a D-STAR radio. There were a large number of folks who dropped by the booth. I only had 1 or 2 of the classic negative hams. This is great, because the number has dropped over the years. At this point, weve now got answers to most of the negative questions. There are number of manufacturers making equipment for D-STAR. We can make a non D-STAR radio a D-STAR radio, and we now have approved non-Icom repeaters that can be connected to the network. There will always be those who dont want to hear about D-STAR. Thats okay. Theres no rule in ham radio that everyone has to do everything. We have HFers that have never been above 50 MHz and folks who have never been below it. Weve got folks who work people that live on the earth, and weve got people who talk to satellites, even the moon. But there are still a lot of people who dont know what D-STAR is and we need to work at making sure that we at least get the word out. Ed WA4YIH From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Barry Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 4:33 AM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH All I sometimes get when I do talks about it, is "What's the point?! Why bother?" After a few extra questions and further exploration into their supposed disbelief, it usually comes out at the end; "after all, its too expensive..." I think jealousy is a prevailing trait with many, that is, until one day they pop up on the mode... Neil G7EBY.
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH
I had a spare analog FM radio in the closet, as well as a laptop sitting idle, and for less than US $150, I put up a HotSpot so I can access the dPlus D-STAR network from within 5-10 miles around my house. For that same amount, someone could convert an existing analog repeater to a dPlus-linking D-STAR compatible repeater, and soon, to a fully G2 compliant repeater. I tested my HotSpot in repeater mode with two radios, and it does work. The HotSpot approach means you don't have to wait for a big deal repeater to come online to enjoy D-STAR. I use a 91AD HT around the house, and an ID-800H I bought used for mobile work. It doesn't have to cost a lot of money to enjoy D-STAR. Jim - K6JM - Original Message - From: Mike Besemer (WM4B) To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 6:11 PM Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH True, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. We've had a big push on analog repeaters in the past few years and we're about repeatered to death. Maybe somebody crazier than me will be willing to work it! As for other options. I've got a kid starting college this fall. guess where all my money is going! 73, Mike WM4B -- From: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com [mailto:dstar_digi...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Woodrick, Ed Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 9:09 PM To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH Don't forget that you don't have to wait for the Georgia PBS Network to come on line, there's nothing keeping any individuals or repeater groups from putting other repeaters online in Georgia. There's also the DVDongle, DVAP, and hotspots that can be used to access the network. Ed WA4YIH
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH
Yes, the simplest part of setting up a new D-STAR compatible repeater is the D-STAR part. The real work is the traditional stuff -- site, analog radios, duplexers, antennas etc. Don't forget to get a club call -- things get confusing when a D-STAR repeater has the same call as an individual. Jim - K6JM - Original Message - From: john_ke5c To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 6:12 AM Subject: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH > The HotSpot approach means you don't have to wait for a big deal repeater to come online to enjoy D-STAR. I use a 91AD HT around the house, and an ID-800H I bought used for mobile work. It doesn't have to cost a lot of money to enjoy D-STAR. I am involved with four or five (depending on how you define involved) DStar gateways, and the next major development will be AFFORDABLE homebrew repeater/gateways. We are just starting to look into this (hotspot in the mail) for our next installation. Plus it feels more like hamming - get a pair of old commercial FM radios, retune some used duplexers, etc., and hook it all up. 73--John
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH
On 5/24/2010 11:19 AM, J. Moen wrote: Yes, the simplest part of setting up a new D-STAR compatible repeater is the D-STAR part. The real work is the traditional stuff -- site, analog radios, duplexers, antennas etc. That would be ANY repeater, actually. ;-) Why do hams think the radio part of well-performing repeaters is the expensive part? Always amazes me. If it's going to be used to offer service to a so-called "served agency" (even though we can't legally provide service to anyone, nor accept remuneration for same)... - Site rent (or a sweetheart deal) for somewhere really worth putting a repeater at - Hardline & Connectors - Double-shielded jumpers - Commercial-grade antenna - Proper weatherproofing materials (no, $1/roll electrical tape doesn't cut it) - Commercial-grade filtering products (duplexer/pre-selector cans/etc.) - Commercial-grade power supply - A secure way to remotely power cycle it all (especially D-STAR repeaters) - Commercial-grade router that can be remotely managed (unless you enjoy pain) - Commercial-grade server with dual power supplies (unless you enjoy outages) - Commercial-grade Lightning protection/grounding for everything, including the Internet connection. Optional: - Commercial-grade pre-amplifier (if you have appropriate test gear to see if you made a positive or negative difference adding it) - Commercial-grade final Amplifier (again, don't bother if you don't know what "balanced system" means and have added the pre-amp) And you can remove "commercial-grade" and fight with maintenance on it as much as you like (it's a hobby, after all), if you're not planning on signing up with a "served agency" to be primary for emergency traffic on it, and emergency traffic will only show up as a last-resort. Buying an Icom D-STAR repeater: Couple thousand bucks Buying all the appropriate stuff to put it up correctly: Another couple thousand bucks. Owning the right test gear to know you did it right: ANOTHER couple thousand bucks. Knowing you did it right: Priceless. :-) Unless you're individually quite wealthy, a properly done repeater is not "affordable" at all. Consider a typical new high-quality HF rig, something a contester would be proud to use after reading the technical specifications... and look at the price tag a repeater done right costs at least that much. The list above is just the standard list we use to deploy ANALOG repeaters... typed up off the top of my head. Proper repeater installation hasn't really changed in 20 years, other than a modern crimp-on RF connector done with the right tools actually does yield more consistent results, faster... and they didn't back then... If you're going up to 1.2 GHz... even more expensive "additional gear" is required. Nate WY0X p.s. I didn't install the RF side of W0CDS, and will make no claims for or against its performance. I know the people who did, and they usually do things right... but in regards to W0CDS, I just maintain the Linux box for 'em.
Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH
Nate, Thanks for making my point -- the D-STAR part is the easy part, and if you go non-ICOM, it's nearly free. The hard, and expensive work, is the traditional repeater part of it, which you have outlined very well. So the good news -- when someone has an existing analog repeater which they'd like to convert to D-STAR, they can do it easily and inexpensively. Probably the biggest issue is adding in a reliable internet connection. Even there, some people have repeaters with line of site from their abode, and with proper directional antennas, a wifi connection is not too difficult. I got into HF in 1959, and I've never done a real repeater, but whenever I read posts from people, like you, who have put up one or many repeaters, I gain more and more respect for the knowledge and effort that's required. Jim - K6JM - Original Message - From: Nate Duehr To: dstar_digital@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH On 5/24/2010 11:19 AM, J. Moen wrote: Yes, the simplest part of setting up a new D-STAR compatible repeater is the D-STAR part. The real work is the traditional stuff -- site, analog radios, duplexers, antennas etc. That would be ANY repeater, actually. ;-) Why do hams think the radio part of well-performing repeaters is the expensive part? Always amazes me. If it's going to be used to offer service to a so-called "served agency" (even though we can't legally provide service to anyone, nor accept remuneration for same)... - Site rent (or a sweetheart deal) for somewhere really worth putting a repeater at - Hardline & Connectors - Double-shielded jumpers - Commercial-grade antenna - Proper weatherproofing materials (no, $1/roll electrical tape doesn't cut it) - Commercial-grade filtering products (duplexer/pre-selector cans/etc.) - Commercial-grade power supply - A secure way to remotely power cycle it all (especially D-STAR repeaters) - Commercial-grade router that can be remotely managed (unless you enjoy pain) - Commercial-grade server with dual power supplies (unless you enjoy outages) - Commercial-grade Lightning protection/grounding for everything, including the Internet connection. Optional: - Commercial-grade pre-amplifier (if you have appropriate test gear to see if you made a positive or negative difference adding it) - Commercial-grade final Amplifier (again, don't bother if you don't know what "balanced system" means and have added the pre-amp) And you can remove "commercial-grade" and fight with maintenance on it as much as you like (it's a hobby, after all), if you're not planning on signing up with a "served agency" to be primary for emergency traffic on it, and emergency traffic will only show up as a last-resort. Buying an Icom D-STAR repeater: Couple thousand bucks Buying all the appropriate stuff to put it up correctly: Another couple thousand bucks. Owning the right test gear to know you did it right: ANOTHER couple thousand bucks. Knowing you did it right: Priceless. :-) Unless you're individually quite wealthy, a properly done repeater is not "affordable" at all. Consider a typical new high-quality HF rig, something a contester would be proud to use after reading the technical specifications... and look at the price tag a repeater done right costs at least that much. The list above is just the standard list we use to deploy ANALOG repeaters... typed up off the top of my head. Proper repeater installation hasn't really changed in 20 years, other than a modern crimp-on RF connector done with the right tools actually does yield more consistent results, faster... and they didn't back then... If you're going up to 1.2 GHz... even more expensive "additional gear" is required. Nate WY0X p.s. I didn't install the RF side of W0CDS, and will make no claims for or against its performance. I know the people who did, and they usually do things right... but in regards to W0CDS, I just maintain the Linux box for 'em.
Repeaters/Infrastructure Building (Was: Re: [DSTAR_DIGITAL] Re: DSTAR newcomer FINISH)
On 5/25/2010 12:53 AM, J. Moen wrote: Thanks for making my point -- the D-STAR part is the easy part, and if you go non-ICOM, it's nearly free. The hard, and expensive work, is the traditional repeater part of it, which you have outlined very well. Yeah, I was just supporting your point with details, Jim. So many hams think a repeater is something you slap up on a piece of RG-8U on a Comet in your backyard... For the record, I can't say I've ever "put up a repeater", but let me explain that... I realized early on that repeaters that performed well were up on high mountains around here, which meant site rent, and then got involved in various clubs/organizations that already had repeaters they'd let anyone they trusted to, work on them. Spent a lot of time being mentored by the folks already taking care of those systems. Some of whom put them up and rebuilt them and learned all these lessons the hard way over a few decades. They have great advice. I learned that most organizations are DYING for QUALIFIED people to work on all repeater systems. They need not only good technicians, but technicians who know how to get along with others (rare in Ham Radio) and people they can trust to troubleshoot and "do no harm" when a system has a problem. Also the number of hams willing to purchase and keep their own service monitors and other necessary test gear is really, REALLY low. So fo years I've helped with rennovation/revamp of repeaters, and/or installing repeaters at sites that already have some infrastructure. Never a complete "from the ground up" install, so to speak... because the systems that are up are already on the best sites for coverage. No point in putting things lower, unless you have a specific local coverage need. Last year when we *moved* a repeater from one building/tower system to another. We took the time/money to give it all new antennas and hardline on the new tower, etc... it was worth it. (Carrying a 6' rack cabinet full of MASTR II stuff with four guys on the corners, like a sarcophagus, with straps, through mud, is entertaining.) So yeah, I've touched all the "moving parts" of a repeater system, and could install a whole one, but the real need out there these days is in people with skills to help maintain and revamp existing systems. An additional side effect to this is that once you're involved and serious on the analog side, you have a "respect platform" in your local group of techies to say, "Hey guys, X repeater isn't really used all that much. Do you think we might consider doing a D-STAR repeater on that pair?" There are some built-in "gotchas" with a D-STAR system that make it a LOT harder to figure out the problem if you have no analog repeater experience, too. Things like how to check a D-STAR system for de-sense if you've never seen it on an analog repeater... it won't make as much "sense". (No pun intended.) (Recall that we've actually seen people on the list say things like, "It can't have desense! It's digital!" Sometimes folks get excited and forget that the laws of RF physics aren't repealed as soon as you slap a "digital" label on something! GRIN...) Like anything worth doing, it's worth learning to do it right, and it's worth the money too... in the long run. Like most things worth doing, you also never really ever quit learning about whatever topic it is. I learn something new every time I go up to a repeater site. Had a very interesting thought recently: We have different license classes by band... why not an "Infrastructure" license? If you're going to install infrastructure you must pass a test that includes questions about how infrastructure is different than a typical single-user station, bandplan coordination, legalities as they relate specifically to infrastructure stations, etc etc etc. Not just for repeaters, all infrastructure. Those topics all apply, even on HF infrastructure. Fascinating thought. Would be pretty easy to flesh it out with a good generalized question pool, too. Sends the right message, too... "You're responsible for something that can cause more people problems than just your single-person station." Etc. -- Nate WY0X
