[e-gold-list] Re: Crooks vs. honest people
At 12:45 AM 7/6/2001 -0400, you wrote: Michael Moore wrote: this has been an ongoing problem in commerce and banking and part of the answer (not the right one perhaps) has been to introduce the 'know your customer' policy. Unfortunately this also tends to cut across the rights of the individual. So the problem is where do you draw the line between the rights of the individual and the efforts to curb criminal activities? Yes, that is the problem. Or more to the point how to eliminate any need to trade off between the two. So far there has not been an effective solution to this problem. The 'Authorities' take the stance of suspect everyone and introduce various restrictive legislation (hence their 'know your customer' policy) as, from their viewpoint, curbing criminal activities is more important than civil rights. IMO, the most important thing for authorities throughout history and in all places has been to curb civil rights. The petty activities of their freelance criminal bretheren are just a convenient excuse. You gave a good description of the situation. But we need some new ideas for solutions. A solution is to use jurisdictional arbitrage to limit the financial exposure of the corporation and criminal exposure of the exchange operators. In the U.S. only corporate officers and those evidencing direct control (e.g., signing checks) can be held accountable for the activities of the corporation. All of a U.S. corporation's officers can be foreign citizens. If those citizens are in countries without extradition treaties or which refuse extradition for activities which are not criminal in their boarders... steve --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Crooks vs. honest people
e-gold because e-gold is unfortunately turning out to be a crook magnet. Sad...but true. I must agree with you. Crooks are using e-gold for the exact same reason that legitimate user do. The ability to do world-wide commerce without fear of the transaction being cancelled. Legitimate users don't want to deal with fraudulent or boucing payments while crooks don't want to deal with their marks suddenly getting wise and cancelling payment. Any payment system, not just electronic ones, that allows non-repudiable payments will be fraught with scams and crooks until it goes mainstream. A payment system going mainstream doesn't reduce the number of scams crooks using it. It actually dramatically increases the number. What decreases is the ratio of crooks to legitimate users. By the time GoldMoney e-bullion are as widely used as e-gold, they will have their own share of scams and crooks as well as legitimate users. Viking Coder Worth Two Cents? http://www.two-cents-worth.com/?VikingCoder --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Crooks vs. honest people
Any payment system, not just electronic ones, that allows non-repudiable payments will be fraught with scams and crooks until it goes mainstream. A payment system going mainstream doesn't reduce the number of scams crooks using it. It actually dramatically increases the number. What decreases is the ratio of crooks to legitimate users. Well said! --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Crooks vs. honest people
Any payment system, not just electronic ones, that allows non-repudiable payments will be fraught with scams and crooks until it goes mainstream. A payment system going mainstream doesn't reduce the number of scams crooks using it. It actually dramatically increases the number. What decreases is the ratio of crooks to legitimate users. Just look at bank notes in just about any currency! Especially US$ ones. How many drug dealers take AMEX? Though there is a fairly high number of greyer businesses like prostitution that do. Cheers, Paul Ewing Shining Moon Creations - Exotic and Fantasy Jewelry http://www.shiningmoon.com --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Crooks vs. honest people
Eric, For market makers to try to become thought police does not do this. Agreed. Unfortunately, Law Enforcement does not view it this way. The act of completing an exchange for a criminal (even if you do not KNOW it is a criminal) can be used against your business by Law Enforcement. Yes. Sigh! And there is no solution to this except to leave the US and go some place with more sense and respect for individual rights (if you can find one :( ). Best, CCS --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Crooks vs. honest people
Viking Coder wrote: Crooks are using e-gold for the exact same reason that legitimate user do. The ability to do world-wide commerce without fear of the transaction being cancelled. Legitimate users don't want to deal with fraudulent or boucing payments while crooks don't want to deal with their marks suddenly getting wise and cancelling payment. Any payment system, not just electronic ones, that allows non-repudiable payments will be fraught with scams and crooks until it goes mainstream. A payment system going mainstream doesn't reduce the number of scams crooks using it. It actually dramatically increases the number. What decreases is the ratio of crooks to legitimate users. Very cogent analysis. So, in view of this, what can be done to differentiate the crooks from the honest people? The difficulty arises because both are using the system in the same ways for superficially similar purposes. The crooks hide in this ambiguity. But fundamentally there is a *great* difference. If this difference could be exposed somehow without violating the honest people it would be a great advance. Some out of the box thinking is needed here; something entirely new. Best, CCS --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Crooks vs. honest people
Very cogent analysis. So, in view of this, what can be done to differentiate the crooks from the honest people? The difficulty arises because both are using the system in the same ways for superficially similar purposes. The crooks hide in this ambiguity. But fundamentally there is a *great* difference. If this difference could be exposed somehow without violating the honest people it would be a great advance. Some out of the box thinking is needed here; something entirely new. this has been an ongoing problem in commerce and banking and part of the answer (not the right one perhaps) has been to introduce the 'know your customer' policy. Unfortunately this also tends to cut across the rights of the individual. So the problem is where do you draw the line between the rights of the individual and the efforts to curb criminal activities? So far there has not been an effective solution to this problem. The 'Authorities' take the stance of suspect everyone and introduce various restrictive legislation (hence their 'know your customer' policy) as, from their viewpoint, curbing criminal activities is more important than civil rights. So then we have libetarian groups protesting the curbing of civil rights and the authorities saying they must curb criminal activities. and introducing checks on innocent people in an effort to locate the criminal element. This becomes a further problem in the US in that you have the rights of the individual laid down in the constitution but introduced restrictive legislation now flying in the face of that. I am sure some libertarians can supply specifics of such legislation and the disparity between that and the constitution. From our point of view as market makers, we have two issues; 1) The satisfaction of our clients with our service and 2) The protection of our business A Market Maker has to put in place policies and protective mechanisms which satisfy both points above (How they do that is largely up to them but this is something the eCTA will participate in with regard to suypport for it's members). This applies to both out-exchange as well as in-exchange. The Authorities will make no or little distinction and a small operator in the finance and business world does not have as much influence or sway with the authorities as a larger one. Compare e- gold to the Citibank for example. The reality is that, dispite the Citibank being allegedly the recipient of laundered money it would be treated somewhat differently than say e-gold in that situation. The law in the US says, correct me if I am wrong, a person is innocent until proven guilty but the practical reality is that, if you are scammed, you KNOW it was a criminal even though the act never comes to a court of law with the crimminal charged and proven. In addition we have the situation where the law in each country is different (In France for example, you are considered GUILTY as charged and the onus is on you to prove yourself innocent). So which law is used to prosecute? The law of the country of the residing crimminal or the law of the country of the business they scammed? or international law? A Market Maker would have to be an internatinal lawyer or attorney it seems to answer that one. I am not a globalist but the above does show a good reason for some international law over and above that of local countries much as I hate to admit it. FWIW I believe that the onus and responsibility for the saftely of the business and the clients satisfation comes right down to the Market Maker and those that do it right will survive and those that do not will go under. (BTW, Curb is the word for the day if you had not noticed) Cheers, [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.gold-today.com - Receive faxes 24x7, no second line necessary. http://www.mbox.com.au/ --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Crooks vs. honest people
SnowDog wrote: Very cogent analysis. So, in view of this, what can be done to differentiate the crooks from the honest people? The difficulty arises because both are using the system in the same ways for superficially similar purposes. The crooks hide in this ambiguity. But fundamentally there is a *great* difference. If this difference could be exposed somehow without violating the honest people it would be a great advance. Some out of the box thinking is needed here; something entirely new. Crooks don't like to be identified. Therefore: 1) They generally won't provide a proper phone number. 2) They usually have email addresses assigned by free 'sign-up' services. 3) They may not have documentation identifying themselves. Also, 4) They generally want to move as much money as possible as fast as possible. True. But honest people may well do exactly the same things for entirely legitimate reasons. This does NOT *differentiate* between the two. So, altho this may frustrate the crooks it also violates honest people. This is the usual, common let's have a police state and damn individual rights type proposal; it is not new thinking. CCS --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] Re: Crooks vs. honest people
Michael Moore wrote: this has been an ongoing problem in commerce and banking and part of the answer (not the right one perhaps) has been to introduce the 'know your customer' policy. Unfortunately this also tends to cut across the rights of the individual. So the problem is where do you draw the line between the rights of the individual and the efforts to curb criminal activities? Yes, that is the problem. Or more to the point how to eliminate any need to trade off between the two. So far there has not been an effective solution to this problem. The 'Authorities' take the stance of suspect everyone and introduce various restrictive legislation (hence their 'know your customer' policy) as, from their viewpoint, curbing criminal activities is more important than civil rights. IMO, the most important thing for authorities throughout history and in all places has been to curb civil rights. The petty activities of their freelance criminal bretheren are just a convenient excuse. You gave a good description of the situation. But we need some new ideas for solutions. CCS --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[e-gold-list] On Crooks vs. honest people
The problem: a) If you do business with unidentified people, you can be dragged into their crimes, you can be swindled, and you can help crime in general prosper. b) If you force identity and audit trail of all people, you leave people no way to bypass pseudocrimes such as being unwilling to be bled white by elected thieves. Plus you have to raise your prices to cover the workload of playing detective over every transaction. Analysis: The main problem with (a) assuming you're smart enough not to buy into a scam is that of unidirectional anonymity. They know and can tell that they dealt with you; you don't know them from Adam. So the solution focusing on (a) is *bidirectional anonymity*. For example an automated MM system that matches want to buy against want to sell in such a way as to make an audit trail impossible. The problem with (b) comes in two parts: first, the state requiring you to prevent pseudocrimes, second the waste of time and effort. To the first part, the solution is validated pseudonymous reputation. To the second, an external service providing reputation services. You only deal through them, and so you can evaluate the trustworthiness of a mask without being required to inform on its wearer. --- You are currently subscribed to e-gold-list as: archive@jab.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
