Re: [ECOLOG-L] How to collect Green Darner Dragonflies? (Anax sp.) in Gainesville, FL?

[Michael E. Welker]

Aaron,

You might also try setting up a light and sheet at night by the water body. 
I have accidently attracted dragonflies at night with lights in the past. I 
hope this helps.


Thanks,

Mike Welker
Ocotillo Herpetofauna & Invertebrates
El Paso, TX



-Original Message- 
From: Aaron T. Dossey

Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2012 7:34 PM
To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Subject: [ECOLOG-L] How to collect Green Darner Dragonflies? (Anax sp.) in 
Gainesville, FL?


Hello,

I need to get ahold of a regular supply, about 10-15 every couple of
weeks, of dragonflies in the genus Anax.

These seem to be some of the most challenging to get with the standard
daytime netting method, as they land much less frequently than other
species and are almost always over water.

Any suggestions?

Can they be easily found at night resting, etc.?

Thanks!

--
Aaron T. Dossey, Ph.D.
Biochemistry and Molecular Biology
Founder/Owner: All Things Bugs
http://www.allthingsbugs.com
https://www.facebook.com/Allthingsbugs
1-352-281-3643 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Shipping live dragonfly adults?

[Michael E. Welker]

Aaron,

Having shipped many inverts over the years I would think that maybe you 
could put them in paper bags. One to a bag and then staple or paper clip 
them shut. You might consider putting pin holes in the bags for air flow. I 
would go to your local fish or herp pet store and see about getting a styro 
fish box with a cardboard outer. I would either poke a lot of holes in the 
box/styro and/or maybe consider using a cold pack (in a zip lock) taped to 
the lid. You could stack the paper bags on top of each other as the bags 
probably won't collapse or do a layer and then rig up a cardboard dividing 
shelf. You could use toothpicks, paper clips and maybe even chop sticks to 
support the shelf. Or nails pushed through the styro might work to hold up 
the shelf. Make sure you mark the outside of the box well with "this side 
up" and "fragile." Hopefully that will cut down on it being thrown around. I 
would ship them Fed Ex First Overnight or maybe even Delta Air Cargo. Delta 
will probably be cheaper then Fed Ex but not sure where they are going 
either. You have to think about temps which is why I would go overnight. I 
would avoid using the USPS as they can delay Express Mail packages by 
several days because of it being live animals. Apparently some carriers 
won't take live animals and the post office uses them on occasion. I am also 
not sure if Fed Ex or Delta will take them if you are not an approved 
shipper. I am also not sure if the dragonflies need moisture. Wet sphagnum 
moss or water gels may help if needed. The sphagnum might could go in the 
bags (well wrung, loose pieces) but the gels, of course, will not work in 
the bags. You could secure to the styro a deli cup (with lots of holes) or a 
stocking (panty hose) for sphagnum to add some humidity. You might could 
also use deli cups themselves to put the dragon flies in but I don't know 
what size they are. I hope this was helpful.


You don't need permits to ship live inverts in the US but states have 
varying laws concerning importing certain inverts.


Mike Welker
Ocotillo Herpetofauna & Invertebrates
El Paso, TX


-Original Message- 
From: Aaron T. Dossey

Sent: Monday, June 04, 2012 6:57 PM
To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Shipping live dragonfly adults?

Hello,

Anyone know how to properly package and ship live adult dragonflies?

Recommendations would be greatly appreciated!
(yes, the person requesting them does have a permit)

Thanks!

--
Aaron T. Dossey, Ph.D.
Biochemistry and Molecular Biology
Founder/Owner: All Things Bugs
Capitalizing on Low-Crawling Fruit from Insect-Based Innovation
http://www.allthingsbugs.com
https://www.facebook.com/Allthingsbugs
1-352-281-3643 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Backpacking with an infant?

[Michael E. Welker]

Did I say that women shouldn't be working in this field? No I didn't. I knew 
folks would get a "tude" and twist what I said. Further, I said it could happen 
to either sex. I have just seen, from personal experience, it happen primarily 
with women. I have never seen a male quit a project because of marriage or 
pregnancy. I have seen men quit projects for other reasons that made less 
sense. I also figured everyone would know that I was excluding unintended 
situations. But again y'all have to knit pick every possible scenario that 
misses my original points. "Advisors who do not make room for the needs of a 
new mother and baby are problematic in my view" could easily be flipped to say 
"Field techs and grad students who don't take their research seriously are 
problematic in my view." There are two or more sides to everything. There is 
extreme competition for field positions and when someone is not serious or 
doesn't plan well it can mess things up for the researcher, the research and 
the other folks who need work in this field. That is all I am saying. My post 
was not addressing the original post but an issue related to the original post 
that I have seen in my experience. It is about doing good and correct science 
not anyone's personal issues or sex. It is like Bill Maher always says "I am 
not sexist. I am not lambasting Sarah Palin because she is a woman but because 
she is stupid." Good day.

Mike

  
  - Original Message - 
  From: Kerns, Becky -FS 
  To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU 
  Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 1:21 PM
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Backpacking with an infant?


  I was wondering when this point would be made.  Maybe we should not even open 
these jobs to women!

  And I thought we were making progress.

  Becky

  Becky K. Kerns, Ph.D., Team Leader/Research Ecologist
  Ecosystem Dynamics and Environmental Change
  Threat Characterization and Management Program, PNW Research Station
  3200 SW Jefferson Way, Corvallis, OR 97331
  541.750.7497


  -Original Message-
  From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news 
[mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael E. Welker
  Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 11:39 AM
  To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Backpacking with an infant?

  I think that the issue is PLANNING. So science should be compromised because 
of your desire to have children? Slightly different twist to the discussion but 
. if you are doing a field project you should plan on being there for your 
committed time frame i.e. don't get pregnant. I have taken over work on a 
couple of field projects because the woman had to leave for similar reasons 
i.e. getting married and/or pregnant. That is problematic in terms of down time 
to get a new field tech = missed data. Also field techniques maybe altered due 
to new person thus data could be compromised. There are other issues here that 
need to be considered as well. For instance, taking a position from others and 
then backing out for personal reasons midway through the project. This could 
happen for both sexes but have seen it almost exclusively with women in the US. 
Just another thought.

  Mike Welker
  El Paso, TX


- Original Message -
From: Silvia Secchi
To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Backpacking with an infant?


Actually, I think the real issue is who is advising Simone to do this
and thinks it is a good idea. My PhD and postodoctoral advisers had
kids and were realistic in terms of their expectations. Now that I am
on the other side, I try to do the same with my students and postdocs.
At three months, you could have a colicky baby or still be recovering
from a c-section. Advisers who do not make room for the needs of a new
mother and baby are problematic in my view - then again, I am probably
biased because I am Italian, and in Europe maternity leaves are
serious business.

Silvia
--
Silvia Secchi
Assistant Professor, Energy and Environmental Policy, Department of
Agribusiness Economics
Co-Director, Environmental Resources & Policy Ph.D. Program
Agriculture Building - Mailcode 4410
Southern Illinois University
1205 Lincoln Drive
Carbondale, Illinois 62901
Phone:(618)453-1714
Fax: (618)453-1708

Vous avez beau ne pas vous occuper de politique, la politique s'occupe
de vous tout de même.
Charles Forbes de Montalembert

The way we organize the modern American university fragments our
knowledge badly. Not only are we divided by discipline, but we are
divided by the methods that scholars use.
Elinor Ostrom





  This electronic message contains information generated by the USDA solely for 
the intended recipients. Any unauthorized interception of this message or the 
use or dis

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Backpacking with an infant?

[Michael E. Welker]

I think that the issue is PLANNING. So science should be compromised because of 
your desire to have children? Slightly different twist to the discussion but 
. if you are doing a field project you should plan on being there for your 
committed time frame i.e. don't get pregnant. I have taken over work on a 
couple of field projects because the woman had to leave for similar reasons 
i.e. getting married and/or pregnant. That is problematic in terms of down time 
to get a new field tech = missed data. Also field techniques maybe altered due 
to new person thus data could be compromised. There are other issues here that 
need to be considered as well. For instance, taking a position from others and 
then backing out for personal reasons midway through the project. This could 
happen for both sexes but have seen it almost exclusively with women in the US. 
Just another thought.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Silvia Secchi 
  To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU 
  Sent: Monday, April 09, 2012 8:44 AM
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Backpacking with an infant?


  Actually, I think the real issue is who is advising Simone to do this
  and thinks it is a good idea. My PhD and postodoctoral advisers had
  kids and were realistic in terms of their expectations. Now that I am
  on the other side, I try to do the same with my students and postdocs.
  At three months, you could have a colicky baby or still be recovering
  from a c-section. Advisers who do not make room for the needs of a new
  mother and baby are problematic in my view - then again, I am probably
  biased because I am Italian, and in Europe maternity leaves are
  serious business.

  Silvia
  -- 
  Silvia Secchi
  Assistant Professor, Energy and Environmental Policy, Department of
  Agribusiness Economics
  Co-Director, Environmental Resources & Policy Ph.D. Program
  Agriculture Building - Mailcode 4410
  Southern Illinois University
  1205 Lincoln Drive
  Carbondale, Illinois 62901
  Phone:(618)453-1714
  Fax: (618)453-1708

  Vous avez beau ne pas vous occuper de politique, la politique s'occupe
  de vous tout de même.
  Charles Forbes de Montalembert

  The way we organize the modern American university fragments our
  knowledge badly. Not only are we divided by discipline, but we are
  divided by the methods that scholars use.
  Elinor Ostrom

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Disseminating scientific thought to the general public: are scientists making science readily accessible?

[Michael E. Welker]

life. 

Am I only a commercial collector David? My education, zoo work, and papers mean 
nothing? My conservation work through captive propagation means nothing? My 
commercially acquisitioning specimens for research is bad? My collecting snakes 
for the venom industry that saves lives means nothing? My work in the zoo 
educating the public means nothing? My field research means nothing? I am more 
then just a commercial collector please don't pigeon hole me. 

I can't figure out why people with advanced degrees can not see the flaws in 
their thinking about herp conservation. They have the whole private sector to 
work with yet they choose to make them enemies with their blind "conservation 
at all costs" agenda. We have a lot to contribute to herp conservation through 
species range info, abundance, habits, captive care and reproduction. I also 
can't figure out why academics think that just because they work in science 
that they are not a for profit entity? You make a profit off of your work and 
research to pay your bills. Everyone has to make a living and everything humans 
use come from natural resources.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX


  - Original Message - 
  From: mcnee...@cox.net 
  To: Michael E. Welker ; ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 3:08 PM
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Disseminating scientific thought to the general 
public: are scientists making science readily accessible?


  Michael, I too have an extensive background in zoology, with numerous 
publications.  I earned a Ph.D. in Zoology from Oklahoma State University, and 
taught ecology, ichthyology, and other courses, and researched for many years.  
I too have seen firsthand the role of animal collection for commercial 
purposes.I would agree that some populations can be harvested from 
sustainably, and some are.  I would agree that most of those that are are game 
or food species that are managed much more intensively than are non-game, 
non-food species.

  A question.  Do commercial operators like yourself pay the same kinds of 
license fees as do sport and commercial fishers?  Are your permits as tightly 
regulated?  Yes, I know that the most common response of management agencies to 
commercial harvest of something like Gray Kingsnake, or Collared Lizard (I 
purposely chose one very rare species of great conservation concern and one 
common species that is seemingly not threatened) is to ban collection.

  What, given the realities of funding and funding sources would you have the 
management agency do?  Do they have the personnel and funding to handle each 
species population separately, the way they do for game and commercial food 
fishes?  Perhaps your industry would be able and willing to provide the money 
(that is how game and commercial food species management is funded).  Why don't 
you propose that to the state of Texas, and to USFWS?  Perhaps with such 
funding, management plans that would be science based could be developed for 
each separate population of potentially commercially harvested wild mammal, 
bird, reptile, amphibian, and invertebrate.  Then those plans could be 
implemented with appropriate permitting and enforcement.

  Or is it simply not worth the cost?  If so, then the system of protection by 
forbidding harvest seems the only practical mechanism of protection.

  It is difficult to separate whether a commercial collector is advocating for 
conservation, or for profit.  You seem to be interested in sustainability.  
That of course would be in the long-term self interest of a commercial 
collector, but a good many seem (like some commercial fishers) to be interested 
only in short term gain.

  Sincerely, mcneely

   "Michael E. Welker"  wrote: 
  > Hello David,
  > 
  > I have an AS degree in Zoo Animal Technology from Santa Fe Community 
College and am the former head of the Reptile Department at the Central Florida 
Zoo. I have a BS in Wildlife Science from North Carolina State University and 
have worked on field research projects for the University of Florida, The 
Florida Museum of Natural History, The USDA Forest Service, the University of 
Central Florida and the University of Alabama. I have authored around a dozen 
small communications in Herp Review and co-authored the article: Gizzard Shad 
Thiamaninase Activity and Its Effect on the Thiamine Status of Captive American 
Alligators in the Journal of Aquatic Animal Health. I have a GIS Graduate 
Certificate in Environmental Information Systems. And just completed my Masters 
in Environmental Policy and Management from the University of Denver to which a 
manuscript is in prep for the Journal of Wildlife Management from my Masters 
Capstone titled: Regulation of the Amphibian and Reptile trade in Texas: A 
review of the "White and Black Lists" with recommendations for improvement. I 
have kept, worked with and tried to conserve herps all of 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Disseminating scientific thought to the general public: are scientists making science readily accessible?

[Michael E. Welker]

Hello David,

I have an AS degree in Zoo Animal Technology from Santa Fe Community College 
and am the former head of the Reptile Department at the Central Florida Zoo. I 
have a BS in Wildlife Science from North Carolina State University and have 
worked on field research projects for the University of Florida, The Florida 
Museum of Natural History, The USDA Forest Service, the University of Central 
Florida and the University of Alabama. I have authored around a dozen small 
communications in Herp Review and co-authored the article: Gizzard Shad 
Thiamaninase Activity and Its Effect on the Thiamine Status of Captive American 
Alligators in the Journal of Aquatic Animal Health. I have a GIS Graduate 
Certificate in Environmental Information Systems. And just completed my Masters 
in Environmental Policy and Management from the University of Denver to which a 
manuscript is in prep for the Journal of Wildlife Management from my Masters 
Capstone titled: Regulation of the Amphibian and Reptile trade in Texas: A 
review of the "White and Black Lists" with recommendations for improvement. I 
have kept, worked with and tried to conserve herps all of my life. So, yes, I 
have a very educated and experienced agenda. I am quite qualified to make the 
comments I do. I also need to earn a living just like you, however, I am very 
poor (so I am not in it for the money) and just love what I do. Further, I had 
the "conservation at all costs" mentality during the 90's before my wildlife 
science degree and personally know many academics that feel the same way. Yes I 
do acquire live specimens for researchers, hobbyists and myself, and breed 
herps and rodents through my business Ocotillo Herpetofauna & Invertebrates. So 
I know how and why this agenda negatively affects the reptile industry, small 
businesses and hobbyists while not conserving herps and basically protecting 
them into extinction. We won't get into Constitutional rights and the many 
other issues associated with this subject topic. And since I am educated in 
wildlife management and conservation biology I am quite familiar with the 
scientifically backed methods that could be used to correctly, and fairly 
regulate the reptile industry to conserve herps creating a win/win situation 
with the private sector and small businesses rather then the current banning 
agenda which alienates the private sector.

As you can probably guess I have to get back to my animals. I take excellent 
care of them. But I could go on and on about the facts I have thrown out on 
this forum. I just don't have the time. Maybe we can start to explore some of 
the statements I have made. However, many of you would have to do some soul 
searching to admit the agendas within you and how these agendas affect others, 
your research, your teaching and what you advocate for?

I apologize for being so harsh. I am very passionate about this topic.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX 
   
  - Original Message - 
  From: mcnee...@cox.net 
  To: Michael E. Welker ; ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 8:32 AM
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Disseminating scientific thought to the general 
public: are scientists making science readily accessible?


  Michael, do you operate an animal collection and sales business, this one:

  Michael E. Welker, dba Ocotillo Herpetofauna & Invertebrates, 3697 
Yanagisako, 79938  ?

  If so, is it possible that your pecuniary interests give you an agenda which 
you are pushing in these comments?

  Sincerely, David McNeely

   "Michael E. Welker"  wrote: 
  > Malcolm,
  > 
  > I would also say that a group of like minded scientists could knowingly or 
unknowingly push an agenda. Mis-use or abuse of the pre-cautionary principle is 
common through much of wildlife and environmental science. A group of 
scientists who believe that turtle collection or commercial collection (for 
instance) is bad, could affect data interpretation and the expression of like 
minded opinion in peer-reviewed and other literature. Further, many scientists 
make statements that MAYBE true but at the extreme end of the spectrum because 
it fits this agenda. They can also heavily influence regulators because 
regulators usually come from the same vine and usually are of like mind. As 
both a scientist and a private business owner it is really plain to see. In one 
way I don't blame scientists in that you have to present a worse picture then 
actually is occurring or COULD OCCUR to get some of what you want. The "could 
occur" part is the part where abuse of the pre-cautionary principle comes into 
play. From my own experiences it appears that deep inside many scientists are 
animal or environmental lovers and they take this love to far. And it shows in 
their literature, statements and activism. This causes them to lose some 
credibility and to look like agenda pushers in disguise. Especial

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Disseminating scientific thought to the general public: are scientists making science readily accessible?

[Michael E. Welker]

Malcolm,

I would also say that a group of like minded scientists could knowingly or 
unknowingly push an agenda. Mis-use or abuse of the pre-cautionary principle is 
common through much of wildlife and environmental science. A group of 
scientists who believe that turtle collection or commercial collection (for 
instance) is bad, could affect data interpretation and the expression of like 
minded opinion in peer-reviewed and other literature. Further, many scientists 
make statements that MAYBE true but at the extreme end of the spectrum because 
it fits this agenda. They can also heavily influence regulators because 
regulators usually come from the same vine and usually are of like mind. As 
both a scientist and a private business owner it is really plain to see. In one 
way I don't blame scientists in that you have to present a worse picture then 
actually is occurring or COULD OCCUR to get some of what you want. The "could 
occur" part is the part where abuse of the pre-cautionary principle comes into 
play. From my own experiences it appears that deep inside many scientists are 
animal or environmental lovers and they take this love to far. And it shows in 
their literature, statements and activism. This causes them to lose some 
credibility and to look like agenda pushers in disguise. Especially since there 
are scientifically sound management approaches to many of the problems that 
create a win win. 

If a scientist is against hunting, collecting, commercializing or captive 
propagation of flora and fauna you don't think that influences them or their 
work? Is he or she of such great mind because they have letters after their 
name that their opinion is the only course of action? Or that they are the only 
ones who have the "right" to work with these animals? In the name of science? 
If supporting the "conservation at all costs agenda" earns them accolades from 
like minded colleagues you don't think they will perpetuate the agenda? Is the 
pushing of this agenda at the expense of the rights, loves, hobbies and 
businesses of the private citizen okay? 

I know some academics have the banning agenda. Why? Because wildlife management 
techniques can be used to conserve species and they are rarely used for 
anything other then game animals. Many don't stand up and say let's manage. 
Let's regulate. Why? Because of the mis-use of the pre-cautionary principle and 
the mind set of no hunting, no collecting, no commercialization - the banning 
agenda.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX 

PS: Scientists are bottom line thinkers too. They have to pay bills just like 
everyone else. I understand your point I am just saying.


  - Original Message - 
  From: malcolm McCallum 
  To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU 
  Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 9:55 AM
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Disseminating scientific thought to the general 
public: are scientists making science readily accessible?


  Technically, academic scientists have a specific responsibility to
  work for the greater good.
  Therefore, their 'agenda' should be for the greater good.

  However, in my experience you are correct that many DO NOT work for
  the greater good of society and the planet,
  but rather for their own advancement.  No, the scientist as an
  individual should be trusted no more than the CEO as
  an individual, but trends among scientists are present then you
  certainly can have confidence that there is some truth
  to it.  Likewise, I think that this is generally true of CEOs,
  although sometimes you must read between the lines with
  the business folks because there profit is the bottom line motive,
  whereas in science truth is SUPPOSED to be the
  bottom line motive.

  Why does big business and science often bump heads?  Because facts
  backed up with data can affect profits, see tobacco.

  Motives must always be considered with everyone, but you also need to
  evaluate motivation. We can list off the many scientists
  in history who have been killed for revealing what they knew to be
  controversial facts.  I can't recall too many CEOs being so
  motivated.



  On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 9:56 PM, David M. Lawrence  wrote:
  > Why should scientists be trusted any more than a government or business
  > spokesperson not to spin a story the way you like it? Sorry, but scientists
  > have agendas, too. A lot of sorry journalism has been committed by
  > journalists who acted as cheerleaders or lapdogs for influential scientists.
  >
  > You guys seem incredibly naive on this point. You really, really need to
  > think through what you are asking for. Of course, on an individual basis,
  > you may be pure as the driven snow, but I've been in science far too long to
  > expect a lot of purity of motive. Most of the time, scientists may have
  > blind spots in minor matters, but when the blind spots are in major ones --
  > or when a scientist has something other than good science on the agenda -- a
  > lot of harm can be done to the p

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Disseminating scientific thought to the general public: are scientists making science readily accessible?

[Michael E. Welker]

Many scientists do have agendas. I have seen it many times in the field of 
herpetology. This is not only evident in gray literature but in peer-reviewed 
literature as well. And of course books. Many academics throw out statements in 
the discussion sections of papers or preview sections of books making claims 
such as, "commercial collection is decimating populations" or "you should never 
catch a herp as a pet just take a picture." They don't offer any data or proof 
for these statements. Many academic researchers are really animal rights folks 
with degrees and they are pushing a banning agenda. There are many instances of 
this as of late. The whole turtle banning agenda originated from concerns over 
turtles exported to China for food. That should be a concern but bag limits or 
limits on export of adults solve that problem. Instead turtle keeping (captive 
propagation = conservation), harvest and commercialization has been banned in 
many states. The Burmese Python in south Florida is part of the new invasive 
species banning agenda. This was originally publicized by scientists to acquire 
grant funding to eliminate pythons and protect endangered species in south 
Florida and has morphed into the Lacey Act listing of widely held species of 
boas and pythons nationwide crushing thousands of small businesses and making 
private keepers criminals. Grants keep academics working after all. The chytrid 
fungus in amphibians has been documented to be spread by academic field 
researchers and its origins in native populations are not known yet, once 
again, scientists along with NGOs have pushed a banning agenda (expensive 
prohibitive screenings) on the import of amphibians. I know this is a side 
topic of the one being discussed but I had to agree with Mr. Lawrence that 
"scientists have agendas, too." 

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

 
  - Original Message - 
  From: David M. Lawrence 
  To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU 
  Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 8:56 PM
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Disseminating scientific thought to the general 
public: are scientists making science readily accessible?


  Why should scientists be trusted any more than a government or business 
  spokesperson not to spin a story the way you like it? Sorry, but 
  scientists have agendas, too.  A lot of sorry journalism has been 
  committed by journalists who acted as cheerleaders or lapdogs for 
  influential scientists.

  You guys seem incredibly naive on this point.  You really, really need 
  to think through what you are asking for.  Of course, on an individual 
  basis, you may be pure as the driven snow, but I've been in science far 
  too long to expect a lot of purity of motive.  Most of the time, 
  scientists may have blind spots in minor matters, but when the blind 
  spots are in major ones -- or when a scientist has something other than 
  good science on the agenda -- a lot of harm can be done to the public's 
  understanding.

  The public's interests are not served when journalists cast aside their 
  independence in the name of, uh, accuracy.

  You've been getting some good advice from my colleagues (and maybe a bit 
  from me) on how to improve how you are represented in the press.  Why 
  don't you try more of that than requesting something most ethical 
  journalists will never grant you.  Like I said, I will occasionally show 
  copy to a source, but that is anathema to most of my colleagues.

  Dave

  On 4/10/2011 10:29 PM, Jane Shevtsov wrote:
  > On Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Wayne Tyson  wrote:
  >> I am not suggesting that there be a LAW that reporters clear their stories 
with the interviewee, but a CUSTOM. Getting at truth is the issue, reducing
  >> error. Once the cat is out of the bag, it is not a matter of suffering in 
silence or writing the editor and getting a "correction" buried in an
  >> obscure corner of some obscure page. The place to work on the issue is 
where it starts. Maybe those being interviewed should insist that the reporter
  >> explain back to the interviewee what she/he has just heard, like a pilot 
repeating a clearance to an air traffic controller. APPROVAL is NOT the
  >> point--getting it RIGHT is the avowed MUTUAL goal. So I don't disagree 
with Dave's point, but it's not my point.
  > Wayne makes an excellent point. Dave, the reason it would be a bad
  > idea to have a politician check a story before you publish it is that
  > it would interfere with conveying the facts to the public. And the
  > reason why it would be a bad idea NOT to have a scientist check a
  > story before you publish it is that it would interfere with conveying
  > the facts to the public. The same goal may be served by different
  > actions in different circumstances.
  >
  > Jane Shevtsov
  >
  >
  >> - Original Message - From: "David M. Lawrence"
  >> To:
  >> Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 4:22 AM
  >> Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Disseminating scientific thought to the general
  >> public: a

Re: [ECOLOG-L] the precautionary principle makes sense and should be applied to GCC arguments

[Michael E. Welker]

White-tailed Deer and Beaver?

MW

  - Original Message - 
  From: Wayne Tyson 
  To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 1:32 PM
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] the precautionary principle makes sense and should be 
applied to GCC arguments


  Passenger pigeon, anyone?

  WT


  - Original Message - 
  From: "James Crants" 
  To: 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 10:35 AM
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] the precautionary principle makes sense and should 
  be applied to GCC arguments


  > On the contrary, examples exist (sea mink, cod) of animal communities 
  > being
  >> greatly diminished at the hands of the very people turning a profit from
  >> their harvesting.
  >>
  >> Phil
  >
  >
  > The tragedy of the commons.  The benefit from harvesting a resource 
  > accrues
  > only whoever collects it (and probably to some middlemen), while the costs
  > are shared by everyone with a stake in the resource.  The economically
  > rational thing to do, on the individual level, is to harvest as much as 
  > you
  > can, but this produces the collective result of putting all the harvesters
  > out of business.  The only way for them to stay in business is for them to
  > accept some set of rules (either their own or someone else's) that keeps
  > them, collectively, from over-harvesting.  If the resource is very scarce,
  > the rules might say not to harvest at all, on the assumption that all the
  > rule-breakers will harvest at unsustainable or barely-sustainable rates.
  >
  > It's an economic theory, but while almost every ecologist I've talked to
  > about it seems to be familiar with it, every time I've mentioned it to an
  > economist, I've gotten a blank stare in return.
  >
  > Jim
  >
  >
  > -
  > No virus found in this message.
  > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
  > Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3511 - Release Date: 03/16/11
  >

Re: [ECOLOG-L] the precautionary principle makes sense and should be applied to GCC arguments

[Michael E. Welker]

are no 
predators here and they get vet care. Hell I don't even get medical care. These 
are all examples of feelings, morals and opinions. I take great issue with 
someone else trying to tell me what I can and cannot do or works to take away 
what I love to do. If I was hurting wild populations then, yes, stop me. If I 
was abusing my animals then, yes, stop me from keeping. But you need to have 
some pretty good unbiased evidence and data to show this and not just feelings 
and opinion.

I support the ESA. If a species is in trouble then meet the criteria and get it 
listed. If a species is not listed E or T then it should have a reasonable 
harvest amount. If you are concerned about a species but can't get it listed 
then set lower bag limits. The captive population is a safety net. The zoos 
cannot keep and breed every species. The private sector can and will actually 
pay to do so. What will happen to all the species that occur in lands slated 
for development? They will die. They should be collected. Every city has a 
master plan of development up to 20 years out. All those species will die 
unless they are removed. Harvest should be encouraged until we can get 
development and the impact of roads under control. Just my opinion.


Mike Welker
El Paso, TX



  - Original Message - 
  From: Phil Morefield 
  To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 9:58 AM
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] the precautionary principle makes sense and should be 
applied to GCC arguments


  Mike,

  It strikes me that your comments are beginning to sound less like a 
discussion of scientific principles and more like a rant against the academic 
and regulatory communities. I hope that besides simply venting your 
frustrations here, you also support research/scientific efforts which back up 
your claims and professional opinions with data.

  I have serious doubts that anybody anywhere is clamping down on the herp 
industry out of spite or with the intention of finding fortune or fame. Isn't 
it more likely that these are concerned scientists, stakeholders, and decision 
makers that are out to preserve the integrity of ecosystems and simply don't 
agree with your viewpoint? I realize that being the minority opinion is not 
always a pleasent experience, but the ability to disagree while remaining civil 
is what makes us professional scientists.

  I am not a herpetologist or wildlife expert, but as an environmental 
scientist I much prefer animals thriving outside of a cage and I regularly 
support efforts to ensure that they do so. While I am sympathetic to your 
perceptions, I disagree with the implication that a herp-harvesting industry 
unencumbered by regulation would somehow self-police to the extent that the 
greatest ecological benefit would be realized. On the contrary, examples exist 
(sea mink, cod) of animal communities being greatly diminished at the hands of 
the very people turning a profit from their harvesting.

  Phil 


  From: Michael E. Welker 
  To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
  Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 6:25 PM
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] the precautionary principle makes sense and should be 
applied to GCC arguments

  Here we go with the exceptions and the non-absolutes. I will not defend each 
little different case scenarios. The sometimes or the not always. 

  Abuse and misuse of the precautionary principle is rampant in research and 
science. I have known many academics who are animal rights activists with 
degrees. I had the conservation at all costs mindset in the 90's - "we need to 
protect these animals from evil money grubbing humans." I also found many folks 
with letters after their name feeling the same way. Then I got my BS in 
wildlife science and I learned a few things - like sustainable harvest, 
population biology and wildlife management techniques. I saw the difference 
between the banning agenda/conservation at all costs mentality and wildlife 
management. Game biologists understand this (not commercialization but harvest) 
but many classic natural history zoologists, biologists and herpetologists 
don't. Now they use the precautionary principle because of "lack of data." And 
usually err on the side of extreme caution or banning. You can't go from no 
regulation of herps to banning collection of herps.
   That is slightly bipolar. And not writing clear regs so folks have to 
liquidate breeding collections is poor planning and not fair.

  Scientists are exempt from many state herp regulations. I believe the new NM 
regs they are exempt. I also remember something in the AL regs maybe possession 
of venomous? I don't have time to research every instance but they are there.

  I said the "more famous a researcher becomes" the more financial and other 
benefits he receives. The university gets part of the grant money for admin 
costs, the PI gets a salary. They usually set their hourly

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Climate Change Data

[Michael E. Welker]

Hello Dr. Taylor,

You can not penalize the entire private herp community because of a few bad 
apples. That is wrong and unfair. I do blame the scientific community for 
misuse or abuse of the precautionary principle and pushing of the animal rights 
banning agenda (especially as it relates to herps). Further, for species of 
concern, bag limits and sustainable harvest principles and other scientifically 
established management methods can be used to manage harvest. And the private 
herp community pays to harvest and will pay to harvest so to just ban harvest 
is robbing herps of much needed dollars. And captive propagation is 
conservation (locality breeders more so then others); this relieves tax payers 
for the cost of conserving these species. Right now most are getting virtually 
no conservation anyway. Actually in most cases the hobbyists are just banned 
and the real threats of habitat destruction are allowed to continue full steam 
ahead = protection into extinction. The captive population is a safety net.  
Again, we are tired of being penalized because of a few bad apples. Most 
collectors and breeders do not over harvest and do all the bad things you 
suggest. If we had clearly written legal pathways to conduct our businesses and 
hobbies then there would be less people getting in trouble. Also 
over-protecting some species causes some folks to bend or break the rules. I 
don't condone that but I understand it. If regulatory agencies and their law 
enforcement divisions would work with the private sector and treat them with 
respect and value instead of trying to bust people and ban them, things would 
be a lot better and it would benefit herps. Managing herp harvest properly and 
fairly as I suggest would create herp jobs. There are just way to many win/wins 
with my argument - not to mention Constitutional rights and fairness. And 
finally, it makes researchers and scientists look bad when they stretch the 
truth for their agenda. And when they skew statistics and when they err on the 
side caution to such an extent to reveal their true beliefs of no harvest or no 
commercialization; then they lose creditability. Not to mention that grant 
money acquisition is becoming harder and harder to get. Thus they use much of 
what I say above to make the problem seem worse then it is to secure this grant 
money and carve out a niche for themselves. We will not be your (not you 
necessarily) scapegoat. We may lose because academics become the regulatory 
biologists and your agenda mirrors animal rights groups in this regard and they 
have all the money but it plain and simply isn't right or scientifically sound 
in today's reality.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

  - Original Message - 
  From: Taylor, Cm 
  To: Michael E. Welker ; ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU 
  Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 1:29 PM
  Subject: RE: [ECOLOG-L] Climate Change Data


  Mike,

  I appreciate your situation, but the fact is that for every person like you 
there are many others who have little to no science background, routinely ship 
and receive animals and plants illegally, and decimate vulnerable populations 
of organisms, among other things as I am sure you are aware. I don't think it 
is fair to blame the science community for these problems.  Again, I am sorry 
for any impact to your legitimate business, but surely you can understand these 
issues and see how they arise.

  Chris

  *
  Dr. Christopher Taylor
  Professor, Aquatic Ecology
  Department of Natural Resources Management
  Texas Tech University
  Box 42125
  Lubbock, TX  79049



  -Original Message-
  From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news 
[mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael E. Welker
  Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 10:17 PM
  To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Climate Change Data

  Warren and forum,

  Facts and data should rule not abuse of the precautionary principle. Far to 
often wildlife and environmental extremists (even those in academia or from 
academia) have abused the precautionary principle. An example would be the use 
of taking the worse case scenario say for a turtle species age to sexual 
maturity. By using the oldest age known rather then the average or the most 
common to push an agenda. This was done in the FL turtle banning agenda by a 
well known turtle biologist. Take for instance the management of herpetofauna 
in TX, rather then enacting fair regulations and sustainable harvest management 
approaches, activities were banned causing private herpers to have to liquidate 
collections that have taken decades to build. And destroying businesses and 
breeding programs that contribute to herp conservation through captive 
propagation of herp species. The precautionary principle is used by agenda 
pushing academics to scare regulatory biologists (who come from academia) 
because many of the these "experts" are 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] the precautionary principle makes sense and should be applied to GCC arguments

[Michael E. Welker]

Here we go with the exceptions and the non-absolutes. I will not defend each 
little different case scenarios. The sometimes or the not always. 

Abuse and misuse of the precautionary principle is rampant in research and 
science. I have known many academics who are animal rights activists with 
degrees. I had the conservation at all costs mindset in the 90's - "we need to 
protect these animals from evil money grubbing humans."  I also found many 
folks with letters after their name feeling the same way. Then I got my BS in 
wildlife science and I learned a few things - like sustainable harvest, 
population biology and wildlife management techniques. I saw the difference 
between the banning agenda/conservation at all costs mentality and wildlife 
management. Game biologists understand this (not commercialization but harvest) 
but many classic natural history zoologists, biologists and herpetologists 
don't. Now they use the precautionary principle because of "lack of data." And 
usually err on the side of extreme caution or banning. You can't go from no 
regulation of herps to banning collection of herps. That is slightly bipolar. 
And not writing clear regs so folks have to liquidate breeding collections is 
poor planning and not fair.

Scientists are exempt from many state herp regulations. I believe the new NM 
regs they are exempt. I also remember something in the AL regs maybe possession 
of venomous? I don't have time to research every instance but they are there.

I said the "more famous a researcher becomes" the more financial and other 
benefits he receives. The university gets part of the grant money for admin 
costs, the PI gets a salary. They usually set their hourly wage. You add all 
the "benefits" from being "famous" and they make some money not to mention the 
power and prestige.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX


- Original Message - 
  From: Russell L. Burke 
  To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU 
  Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 1:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] the precautionary principle makes sense and should be 
applied to GCC arguments


  The precautionary principle is why we buy car insurance, life insurance, and 
medical insurance.  If based on good data, it makes perfect sense.  It is not 
the primary reason that collection of turtles was banned in FL.

  Scientists are not exempt from collection regulations.

  I'd like to see the evidence of even a single scientist who is making money 
by promoting any ban on commercial collection.  Scientists generally don't make 
money from the grants they get, that money goes to the institution and pays for 
research costs.



  -Original Message-
  From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news 
[mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Taylor, Cm
  Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 3:29 PM
  To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Climate Change Data

  Mike,

  I appreciate your situation, but the fact is that for every person like you 
there are many others who have little to no science background, routinely ship 
and receive animals and plants illegally, and decimate vulnerable populations 
of organisms, among other things as I am sure you are aware. I don't think it 
is fair to blame the science community for these problems.  Again, I am sorry 
for any impact to your legitimate business, but surely you can understand these 
issues and see how they arise.

  Chris

  *
  Dr. Christopher Taylor
  Professor, Aquatic Ecology
  Department of Natural Resources Management
  Texas Tech University
  Box 42125
  Lubbock, TX  79049



  -Original Message-
  From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news 
[mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Michael E. Welker
  Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 10:17 PM
  To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Climate Change Data

  Warren and forum,

  Facts and data should rule not abuse of the precautionary principle. Far to 
often wildlife and environmental extremists (even those in academia or from 
academia) have abused the precautionary principle. An example would be the use 
of taking the worse case scenario say for a turtle species age to sexual 
maturity. By using the oldest age known rather then the average or the most 
common to push an agenda. This was done in the FL turtle banning agenda by a 
well known turtle biologist. Take for instance the management of herpetofauna 
in TX, rather then enacting fair regulations and sustainable harvest management 
approaches, activities were banned causing private herpers to have to liquidate 
collections that have taken decades to build. And destroying businesses and 
breeding programs that contribute to herp conservation through captive 
propagation of herp species. The precautionary principle is used by agenda 
pushing academics to scare regulatory biologists (who come

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Climate Change Data

[Michael E. Welker]

Warren and forum,

Facts and data should rule not abuse of the precautionary principle. Far to 
often wildlife and environmental extremists (even those in academia or from 
academia) have abused the precautionary principle. An example would be the use 
of taking the worse case scenario say for a turtle species age to sexual 
maturity. By using the oldest age known rather then the average or the most 
common to push an agenda. This was done in the FL turtle banning agenda by a 
well known turtle biologist. Take for instance the management of herpetofauna 
in TX, rather then enacting fair regulations and sustainable harvest management 
approaches, activities were banned causing private herpers to have to liquidate 
collections that have taken decades to build. And destroying businesses and 
breeding programs that contribute to herp conservation through captive 
propagation of herp species. The precautionary principle is used by agenda 
pushing academics to scare regulatory biologists (who come from academia) 
because many of the these "experts" are anti-wild collection and 
anti-commercialization. They are preservationists not conservationists. And 
they look at themselves as animal advocates. They are also exempt, as are zoos 
and museums, from complying to the regulations so it doesn't affect them. 
Further many use the precautionary principle and the "banning agenda" to secure 
grant funding for continued research. An example of this would be the Burmese 
python problem in the Everglades and the climate model paper. The more famous a 
researcher becomes the more grant money they get, the bigger labs they have and 
the higher fees they can charge for consultations and projects. An example of 
that would be a well known conservation biologist in FL. I have the facts. I 
just don't want to throw out names because that wouldn't be appropriate. I say 
stick to facts and data and not abuse the precautionary principle.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Warren W. Aney 
  To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU 
  Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2011 6:07 PM
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Climate Change Data


  In the face of uncertainty with potential consequences of great magnitude,
  the precautionary approach should rule.  Under this approach it is safer and
  more prudent to take effective action to counter climate change than it is
  to take no action and risk its effects.  The costs of taking action are
  high, but there are also benefits (cleaner air and healthier oceans, for
  example).  The costs of not taking action are potentially catastrophic.

  Our ancestors will enjoy an improved world and thank us for taking action
  even if they determine we were wrong. Our surviving ancestors will condemn
  us if we took no action and this proved to be wrong.

  I know, this is rhetoric and not science, but I have frequently had to deal
  with decision making in the face of scientific uncertainty and this is the
  approach I finally learned to apply or recommend. 

  Warren W. Aney
  Senior Wildlife Ecologist
  Tigard, OR 97223

  -Original Message-
  From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news
  [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Hal Caswell
  Sent: Sunday, 20 March, 2011 15:12
  To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Climate Change Data

  Wayne,

  Whether it's a "trick" question or not depends, of course, on the details.
  However, if you really want information about the "direct and indirect
  effects of anthropogenic causes of climate change" you could not do better
  than to start with the 4th IPCC  report. This is freely available to anyone
  with internet access at

  http://www.ipcc.ch/

  It represents the output of the largest scientific collaboration in history.
  Each volume is prefaced by a summary for policy-makers which is purposely
  designed to be accessible to non-specialists.  Most policy-makers are not,
  after all, scientists.

  As you know, one of the essential aspects of any scientific endeavor,
  especially one with serious policy implications, is uncertainty. Another
  advantage of the IPCC reports is that they have developed the most explicit
  quantification of uncertainty for such a large body of scientific work that
  has ever been attempted.  The disadvantage of that approach is that they
  tend to be slanted towards underestimating effects rather than
  overestimating them. So, read it as a conservative assessment.

  Hal Caswell

  On Mar 20, 2011, at 8:20 PM, Wayne Tyson wrote:

  > James and Ecolog:
  > 
  > No, it's not a "trick" question, it's an honest plea for better, more
  convincing information about quantification of  the direct and indirect
  effects of anthropogenic causes of climate change. "The public at large" has
  an even tougher time sorting out the scientific sheep from the goats, on
  this and other issues in science. It may be a tough question, but there's
  nothing tricky about it. 
  > 
  > The

Re: [ECOLOG-L] mystery turtle - need help on id

[Michael E. Welker]

Hey Wendee,

It looks like a box turtle for sure. It is more colorful then most desert box 
turtles I have seen before. The blueish head is a character of the desert but 
also the gulf coast box turtle and eastern box turtles are very colorful. Based 
on where you found it I would say desert box turtle. It could also be a 
released or escaped pet of an eastern form but if you were on Elephant Mountain 
it self then I doubt it. I hope this helps.

Mike Welker
Ocotillo Herpetofauna & Invertebrates
El Paso, TX

  
  - Original Message - 
  From: Wendee Holtcamp 
  To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 8:56 PM
  Subject: [ECOLOG-L] mystery turtle - need help on id


  I was recently in West TX just north of Big Bend National Park (in Elephant
  Mountain Wildlife Management Area) when I encountered a turtle I can't seem
  to id from my Reptiles book. It was very striking in its coloration with a
  blueish head, orange legs, and red eyes. Some sort of box turtle I think but
  it doesn't match any description I can find, or image, etc!!

  Anyone know what this guy is? http://twitpic.com/2r07a2 

  If you have trouble with that link (on occasion when I click it, it tells me
  that pic no longer exists, the pic is also at my blog
  http://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com
     (scroll down to the pics at the
  end of the latest post). 

  Wendee

  Blogs for Nature from the Bering Sea ~ http://tinyurl.com/2ctghbl 
  ~~
   Wendee Holtcamp, M.S. Wildlife Ecology ~ @bohemianone
  Freelance Writer * Photographer * Bohemian
http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com  
   http://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com
  
  ~~ 6-wk Online Writing Course Starts Oct 16 (signup by Oct 9) ~~
   ~~~
  I'm Animal Planet's news blogger - http://blogs.discovery.com/animal_news

Re: [ECOLOG-L] GIS of protected regions in North America?

[Michael E. Welker]

Jonathan,

How do you define protected? Hunting and fishing occur on many public lands. 
Forests are harvested and lands are leased for oil, gas and mineral 
extraction. Do you mean lands that are theoretically protected from 
commercial and residential development? Also, I would want to know which 
forest lands are native and naturally planted vs. non-native tree farms. I 
would be interested in GIS layers like this as well. I would, also, want to 
know which lands allow harvest and which don't. It would also be good to 
have GIS layers of protected areas that have stocked non-natives. While we 
are on the subject it would be nice to have GIS layers of developed land as 
well. We already have road layers. I am just throwing this out.



Mike Welker
El Paso, TX


- Original Message - 
From: "Jonathan Greenberg" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 6:41 PM
Subject: [ECOLOG-L] GIS of protected regions in North America?



Ecologgers:

   Does anyone know if there is a GIS layer that contains coverages for 
all protected regions in North America (e.g. national, state and local 
parks, private and non-profit wildlife preserves, etc.)?  Thanks!


--j

--

Jonathan A. Greenberg, PhD
Postdoctoral Scholar
Center for Spatial Technologies and Remote Sensing (CSTARS)
University of California, Davis
One Shields Avenue
The Barn, Room 250N
Davis, CA 95616
Cell: 415-794-5043
AIM: jgrn307, MSN: jgrn...@hotmail.com, Gchat: jgrn307 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] Risk assessment in climate change

[Michael E. Welker]

All,

The Precautionary Principle is flawed and can be used inappropriately by 
agenda pushers. Check out this article that explains how and why: 
http://www.reason.com/news/show/30977.html. We do not want to use 
speculation, emotion, conjecture, opinion and abstract reasoning to set 
conservation agenda. We want to use data, science, logic, reason, 
understanding, reality and fairness. We also don't want to use it to take 
away the Constitutional rights of American citizens. You can't take away the 
rights of folks because you "feel, think, or believe."


Mike Welker
El Paso, TX






- Original Message - 
From: "Maiken Winter" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 11:48 PM
Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Risk assessment in climate change



The precautionary principle is probably THE best all-encompassing argument
to act in the face of climate change.

For those interested in further exploring this argument, and for great
short movies on the issue of risk management, please see

The Manpollo Project (http://www.manpollo.org/).

As for the argument that nature will survive - of course it will. That is
why it is wrong to say that we want to save the planet. The planet will
take care of itself - in its own time frame of 1000s and millions of
years.

The issue is about us, and our children. And about our responsibility to
take care of our home.

Maiken 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,

[Michael E. Welker]

Tom,

I don't believe there are to many studies on this but all animals have a 
sustainable harvest amount based on the fact that they produce a great deal 
more offspring then they need to replace those lost to predation and other 
factors. Turtles are so long lived that funding a study would cost a lot and 
wouldn't be complete for many years. We know that turtles have been predated 
(harvested) for 1000's of years and they are still here. I know that isn't a 
scientific study but it is true. Long lived species do need to be managed 
differently then short lived species. But I question some of the opinions 
concerning the fragility of turtles. I also believe that over-harvest does 
occur and can cause damage to populations. But proper management can bring 
these populations back to reasonable stability. All I am saying is that 
herps are different then almost every other species in the sense that they 
are nongame species that is harvested like a game species. The other unique 
thing about herps is that they are kept alive, propagated and sold across 
state and federal lines. All of these realities must be considered when 
making management and regulatory decisions. Herps, basically, need a totally 
different approach then regulatory agencies currently give to all other 
groups. This is where the problem lies: Changing the good ole boy approach 
and ingrained mentality that has been practiced for over the last 100 years. 
The approach of today's academics and agency biologists toward herps and 
herp management is not working. Partnerships with the private sector need to 
be created and nurtured. This will require many to move to the middle and 
take a more inclusive approach.


Mike Welker
El Paso, TX


- Original Message - 
From: "Tom Mosca III" 

To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 7:03 AM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,



Are there any catch and effort data to support this claim?

 Original message 
Clearly, limiting harvest by placing the same restrictions that are in 
place for many other vertebrates (deer, turkey, etc) would be a huge step 
in decreasing the loss of these animals and increasing the number of 
recruits into the population. 

Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,

[Michael E. Welker]

Hello Lori and All,

I have been a member of PARC since 2000. I agree that management is a good 
idea but banning is definitely the wrong idea. Many PARC folks are against 
collecting and the sale of wild caught. We have an impasse right there. 
There are issues with PARC: pushing of a preservationist AR agenda, elitism, 
use of opinion instead of data, use of the precautionary principle, denial 
of the disconnect between them and the private sector and they are made up 
primarily of academics and those that come from academia. The private sector 
has been virtually ignored and what it will take to get their involvement 
many in PARC are not willing to do. There is a great divide between the 
private sector and academia because of the actions of academia and their 
non-inclusion of the private sector. They need to fix this in order to move 
forward and many are not willing. I have been working to try and bridge this 
disconnect but the hardest thing so far has been getting folks to admit 
there is one. Privates feel alienated and under attack and academics just 
want to push their views of preservation. Not all PARCers are unwilling to 
bridge the gap. And not all privates are unwilling to come to the table. But 
there is a lot of work to do to mend this divide. I have talked with some 
members of PARC about creating a MOU (Memo of Understanding) between PARC 
and the private sector. The private herp folks have formed a new group 
called USARK (United States Association of Reptile Keepers) to fight for 
private herpers rights. I am hopeful at some point that we can work together 
to conserve (wise USE) herps and fight the big issues that all wildlife 
populations face: Habitat destruction, the impact of roads and human 
population growth to name a few.


Mike Welker
El Paso, TX



- Original Message - 
From: "Lori Neuman-Lee" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,


Thank you for bringing this issue to light.

The Midwest PARC (Partners in Amphibian and Reptile Conservation) recently
discussed this issue at the September meeting.  Specifically, in many states
there is no "season" for turtles, which makes nesting females an easy
target.  Midwest PARC discussed not only a bag limit, but also placing a
season on turtles to avoid the capture of reproducing animals.  In many of
these midwest states, turtles are legal to capture with a valid fishing
license.  Clearly, limiting harvest by placing the same restrictions that
are in place for many other vertebrates (deer, turkey, etc) would be a huge
step in decreasing the loss of these animals and increasing the number of
recruits into the population.

I suggest that if you are interested in this, you contact your regional PARC
as other regions may have similar initiatives.  The national link is:
http://www.parcplace.org/.  From this website, you can be directed to your
local PARC representatives.

Lori Neuman-Lee

~~~
Lori Neuman-Lee
Eastern Illinois University, M.S. 2010
Iowa State University, B.S. Biology 2007
Iowa State University, B.S. English 2008
lorin...@gmail.com

On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Michael E. Welker  wrote:


All,

Amphibians are not declining due to harvest. There is a simple fix to
turtle over-harvest and that is bag limits. Under no circumstances do we
want to pass banning legislation, prevent sustainable harvest, inhibit
captive propagation or ban commercial sales. Let's not knee jerk and go
Animal Rights on all the breeders, collectors and dealers who are 
preserving

gene pools in captivity and collecting in a sustainable manner. And doing
this out of their own pocket. Especially since we are doing virtually
nothing about habitat destruction, the impacts of roads and human 
population

growth.

Someone could make some good money ranching turtles but if they are banned
that won't happen. We don't want to protect them into extinction.

It is time to get away from the banning agenda and come up with win/win
regulations. If game and fish doesn't want to do its job then they need to
be restructured and allocate funding differently. The time for excuses is
done and private hobbyists and business owners are tired of banning
regulations as the "supposed" solution. It is time to open your mind.

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX



- Original Message - From: "Jorge Ramos" <
jramo...@u.washington.edu>
To: 
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,



Amphibians have been experiencing a similar situation. A couple of days 
ago
there was a news report by the BBC about a study coming out in 
Conservation

Biology by Corey Bradshaw and others. The numbers are alarming and the
images and their captions are interesting.

Thanks Andrea for the heads up to this link:
http://news.<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/h

Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,

[Michael E. Welker]

All,

Amphibians are not declining due to harvest. There is a simple fix to turtle 
over-harvest and that is bag limits. Under no circumstances do we want to 
pass banning legislation, prevent sustainable harvest, inhibit captive 
propagation or ban commercial sales. Let's not knee jerk and go Animal 
Rights on all the breeders, collectors and dealers who are preserving gene 
pools in captivity and collecting in a sustainable manner. And doing this 
out of their own pocket. Especially since we are doing virtually nothing 
about habitat destruction, the impacts of roads and human population growth.


Someone could make some good money ranching turtles but if they are banned 
that won't happen. We don't want to protect them into extinction.


It is time to get away from the banning agenda and come up with win/win 
regulations. If game and fish doesn't want to do its job then they need to 
be restructured and allocate funding differently. The time for excuses is 
done and private hobbyists and business owners are tired of banning 
regulations as the "supposed" solution. It is time to open your mind.


Mike Welker
El Paso, TX



- Original Message - 
From: "Jorge Ramos" 

To: 
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] 1/26 N.Y. Times Editorial on Wild Turtle Trade,


Amphibians have been experiencing a similar situation. A couple of days ago
there was a news report by the BBC about a study coming out in Conservation
Biology by Corey Bradshaw and others. The numbers are alarming and the
images and their captions are interesting.

Thanks Andrea for the heads up to this link:
http://news.
bbc 
.co.

uk 
/2/hi/science/nature/7845306.
stm 

Jorge

--
Jorge Ramos
Graduate Student
College of Forest Resources
University of Washington
Box 352100
Seattle, WA 98195
http://www.ecojorgeramos.com/
jramo...@u.washington.edu


On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 6:53 AM, asalzb...@herpdigest.org <
asalzb...@herpdigest.org> wrote:


THE NEW YORK TIMES
EDITORIAL
Eating the Wild
Published on-line January 25, 2009
Printed in January 26, 2009 edition
In America, there are foragers among us, out searching for morels in
the spring, and there are hunters too. Yet most of our food, except
for fish caught from the sea, is farmed. We do not trap songbirds for
savory pies. (We destroy too many of them through other means.)

Once you look beyond the parochial culinary habits of most Americans
you discover that wildness, and the tastes associated with it, have a
talismanic power that is very hard to eradicate. It is what keeps the
Japanese whaling and keeps some Africans eating bush meat. And it is
one of the things that helps explain the voracious and utterly
destructive Chinese appetite for turtles.

As global wealth rises, so does global consumption of meat, which
includes wild meat. Turtle meat used to be a rare delicacy in the
Asian diet, but no longer. China, along with Hong Kong and Taiwan, has
vacuumed the wild turtles out of most of Southeast Asia. Now,
according to a recent report in The Los Angeles Times, they are
consuming common soft-shell turtles from the American Southeast,
especially Florida, at an alarming rate.

Some scientists estimate that two-thirds of the tortoise and
freshwater turtle species on the planet are seriously threatened. Some
of that is secondhand damage — loss of habitat, water pollution,
climate change. But far too many turtles are being lost to the fork
and the spoon.

In the United States, the solution is relatively straightforward.
States should impose much tighter restrictions on the harvesting and
export of wild turtles. Internationally, the problem is more
complicated. There have been efforts to monitor the species of wild
turtles found in Chinese markets, but as long as the appetite for
turtles — and traditional medicines derived from them — persists, we
fear it will be hard to curtail such a profitable and disastrous trade.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/26/opinion/26mon4.html?_r=1

Allen Salzberg

HerpDigest.org: The Only Free Weekly E-Zine That Reports on
The Latest News on Herpetological Conservation and Science
www.HerpDigest.org

HerpArts.com
Gifts for Herp Lovers:  Reptile and Amphibian Jewelry, Art, Toys for 
Adults

And Kids, Decorative Items for the House and So Much More
www.HerpArts.com

Re: Four wheel drive vehicles are a REQUIREMENT for most field projects!

[Michael E. Welker]

You have to have the proper equipment to do the job or don't do the job.  It 
is time to do things correctly, funding source or not.  Educate them if 
necessary or you don't get the project if you can't provide the proper 
equipment.  When you get stuck and have to call in (if you have cell 
service, most times you don't) someone to tow you out you have wasted time 
and resources.  This happens multiple times when the proper vehicle is not 
provided.  My point is fact... most off road projects require four wheel 
drive.  I have worked on enough projects to know.  I have also worked with 
many PI's that don't know much about field projects yet they get thousands 
of dollars to run them.  Many PIs skimp and then expect their techs to take 
up the slack.  That is not right.  Some techs may not say anything to you 
about it (brown nose factor) but they are definitely saying it.  Most PI's 
are not the ones in the field so they (sitting in their AC cooled labs) 
don't realize the needs of the field tech.  If you can't do the project 
correctly (enough funding) then don't do the project.  I wonder how skimping 
effects the data?

Take Care,

Michael E. Welker
Herpetologist / Wildlife Scientist
3105 Eads Place
El Paso, Texas 79935
(915) 595-8831 home
(352) 256-4000 cell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message - 
From: "Malcolm McCallum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michael E. Welker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: Four wheel drive vehicles are a REQUIREMENT for most field 
projects!


> You are making an assumption too that all funders will pay for a vehicle.
> IF a vehicle is an eligible expense then any proposer is going to put one
> in if needed.  Fact is, vehicles typically are not eligible expenses and
> even if they are the budget ceiling is often too small to allow budgeting
> such vehicles.  AN average state grant may be 30-60K and limited to 1 yr.
> OFten state grants are much smaller.  Cost shares through federal agencies
> may not exceed 5-10K.  Many grantors will pay to rent a vehicle but not
> purchase.  Thats a hoot.  So you rent a 4 wheel drive and use it out in
> the field, get it all scratched up and dinged, now bring it back.  Reminds
> me of the scene in "Jackass: the movie."
>
> This idea that you can just budget anything into a grant and get it if
> justified is complete naivity.  I suspect you were talking in absolutes,
> but clearly not meaning it as such!  Every RFP has its rules.  Every
> project has its needs.  When 4 wheel is needed, you must have it.  But you
> don't always need it and it is definitely a gas-hog vehicle running up
> your expenses should you use it when not needed.
>
>
> On Fri, August 10, 2007 12:10 pm, Michael E. Welker wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> Most of the herp projects I have worked on have required four wheel drive
>> vehicles.  Some of the PI's I have worked for were so inexperienced in
>> field
>> work that they "didn't realize" that a four wheel drive was a necessity.
>> Many of the others tried to get by with "very used" four wheel drives
>> because they didn't put enough money in their grant to get a decent field
>> vehicle.  And on some projects they wanted us to drive our personal four
>> wheel drive vehicle.  I would suggest the following:
>>
>> 1.  Put enough money in your grant to get what you need and consider 
>> those
>> that will be in the field.  Don't skimp on the resources it takes to get
>> the
>> job done!
>> 2.  Any off road project requires four wheel drive.  Even dirt roads
>> (especially NF roads) become very muddy during rains and many also have
>> sugar sand.
>> 3.  If you are not inexperienced enough with field projects to plan
>> properly
>> get some advice.
>> 4.  Get out of your lab and go to the field sites.  Things look great on
>> paper but that doesn't mean they work in the real world.
>> 5.  It is not your research techs job to provide a field vehicle it is
>> yours!
>>
>> Take Care,
>>
>> Michael E. Welker
>> Herpetologist / Wildlife Scientist
>> 3105 Eads Place
>> El Paso, Texas 79935
>> (915) 595-8831 home
>> (352) 256-4000 cell
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Malcolm McCallum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 5:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: Field-worthy SUV
>>
>>
>>> Doesn't it strike anyone kind of strange that this discussion about
>>> which
>>> SUV to choose popped up right amidst a dis

Four wheel drive vehicles are a REQUIREMENT for most field projects!

[Michael E. Welker]

All,

Most of the herp projects I have worked on have required four wheel drive 
vehicles.  Some of the PI's I have worked for were so inexperienced in field 
work that they "didn't realize" that a four wheel drive was a necessity. 
Many of the others tried to get by with "very used" four wheel drives 
because they didn't put enough money in their grant to get a decent field 
vehicle.  And on some projects they wanted us to drive our personal four 
wheel drive vehicle.  I would suggest the following:

1.  Put enough money in your grant to get what you need and consider those 
that will be in the field.  Don't skimp on the resources it takes to get the 
job done!
2.  Any off road project requires four wheel drive.  Even dirt roads 
(especially NF roads) become very muddy during rains and many also have 
sugar sand.
3.  If you are not inexperienced enough with field projects to plan properly 
get some advice.
4.  Get out of your lab and go to the field sites.  Things look great on 
paper but that doesn't mean they work in the real world.
5.  It is not your research techs job to provide a field vehicle it is 
yours!

Take Care,

Michael E. Welker
Herpetologist / Wildlife Scientist
3105 Eads Place
El Paso, Texas 79935
(915) 595-8831 home
(352) 256-4000 cell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


- Original Message - 
From: "Malcolm McCallum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: Field-worthy SUV


> Doesn't it strike anyone kind of strange that this discussion about which
> SUV to choose popped up right amidst a discussion about wastefulness?  I
> suggest that 90% of us using 4-wheel drive SUVs for research really don't
> need them.  How often do you actually need to put it in 4-wheel???
>
> Just stoking the fire here!
>
>
> On Thu, August 9, 2007 3:33 pm, Mike Marsh wrote:
>> Robert, if you don't mind something old, find (with difficulty nowadays)
>> a pre1985 Toyota land cruiser, also known in Australia as a "troopie".
>> these are instantly recognizeable by the completely box-like cabin, and
>> the long-wheelbase model was designed to carry a  squad of 8 soldiers in
>> the rear sitting sidewise on two parallel benches, with a bench seat in
>> front. The chassis and suspension is mor reminiscent of a locomotive
>> than a truck completely solid. There is a manual, low-hi range
>> transmission. You have to get out to lock or unlock the front hubs for 4
>> wheel drive. A diesel model will chug down the road at 55 mph forever,
>> cross rivers, tow less bush-worthy vehicles, etc.
>> We went to Australia in 2001 to cross the continent with local friends
>> from Sydney to the Kimberleys. We bought a used long wheelbase 1984
>> troopie, had oil leaks in the front hubs fixed, and set out on a 3 week
>> expedition. We covered 10,000 kilometers, perhaps 1/3 of it on unsealed
>> (unpaved) roads of various degrees of roughness, had no breakdowns (well
>> ,the clutch was slipping the last 600 km), one flat tire, and came away
>> loving our vehicle, which we sold to a friend. You must not need to go
>> fast, as the fuel economy drops. With 2 fuel tanks you have 400+ mile
>> range.
>> Mike Marsh
>>> Subject:
>>> Re: field-worthy SUV
>>> From:
>>> William Silvert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Date:
>>> Tue, 7 Aug 2007 18:16:59 +0100
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm no expert on this, but colleagues who have worked in Africa swear
>>> by the Toyota pickups. They run circles around Land Rovers and the like.
>>>
>>> Bill Silvert
>>>
>>> - Original Message - From: "Robert Long" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2007 1:23 PM
>>> Subject: field-worthy SUV
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>
>>>> This is a fairly general question, but I'm looking for a small- or
>>>> mid-sized
>>>> SUV to serve as a field vehicle. It will be used extensively both on-
>>>> and
>>>> off-highway, although need not be capable of truly ruggged
>>>> off-roading. A
>>>> good amount of rear cargo space would be best (which eliminates some
>>>> of the
>>>> smaller SUVs like the Honda CRV), and decent gas mileage will be a
>>>> strong
>>>> plus.
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone recommend a few makes and models based on personal
>>>> experience in
>>>> the field?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>
>
>
> Malcolm L. McCallum
> Assistant Professor of Biology
> Editor Herpetological Conservationa and Biology
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Re: Absolute Addiction to Catastrophic Consumption

[Michael E. Welker]

All,

First of all,  wildlife and nature are beyond a man made economic system. 
The sooner we teach society and politicians that the better.  I say 
everything should have equal value and that value is priceless.  That does 
not mean that we can not use it but we must use it wisely - conservation. 
In order to conserve natural resources we must have interconnecting core 
habitat preserves with a buffer of conservation lands for human use.  That 
is the only way to truly conserve our natural history.  Until we do this it 
is all going to be "jumbled" conservation.

Take Care,

Mike Welker
El Paso, TX

- Original Message - 
From: "James J. Roper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: Absolute Addiction to Catastrophic Consumption


>I believe it was David Ehrenfeld who wrote and essay - "Why put value on
> biodiversity" and the gist is that if we put monetary value on things, 
> that
> value will fluctuate with the market and economics.  Thus, no permanence 
> in
> conservation (well, relative permanence - there is no permanence in a
> changing universe).  So, we need to get away from "value" and just 
> conserve=
> .
>
> Jim
>
> On 3/22/07, Wendee Holtcamp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> I was thinking about this, and in my opinion, the "things" we all want to
>> "save" (polar bears, rainforest, amphibians etc) are all on a marketplace
>> so
>> to speak, and are in competition with one another as to what gets the 
>> mos=
> t
>> attention.
>>
>> We may "pay more" as a society to save cute cuddly polar bears than they
>> are
>> "worth" in the grand scheme of relative importance of things, because
>> without a doubt even people who are not environmentalists per se love
>> wildlife and animals (I think there are some studies on this - I know one
>> mag, I think Smithsonian, said their sales go way up when they put a cute
>> animal on the cover). Every organization out there has to compete for
>> money
>> and the public's attention. Right now global warming has (finally) gotten
>> the attention it deserves in the mainstream. It's reached the tipping
>> point
>> in terms of attention and people are paying attention who could dismiss 
>> i=
> t
>> before.
>>
>> The question is, how do "We Who Care About the Environment" make sure 
>> tha=
> t
>> our societal group effort and money is expended on the decisions that 
>> wil=
> l
>> TRULY make the most difference in terms of turning the planet into a 
>> plac=
> e
>> we truly want for future generations. First we have to know which
>> decisions
>> are the most important (why I like that book about Effective Consumer
>> Choices), then we have to know how to harness that energy and effort to
>> educating others about the relative importance of those things so 
>> everyon=
> e
>> is not just going in a million directions. This is where solid leadership
>> comes in.
>>
>> When I say wildlife are of less relative importance, I mean each
>> individual
>> species "Save the whales" type thing. This has shifted to "save
>> ecosystems"
>> over the past 30 years I think, and I also want to add that wildlife can
>> be
>> an entry-drug (so to speak) to those less ecologically/environmentally
>> minded, and so their importance in the "economics" of ideas may be worth
>> more than ecologically each individual species may be.
>>
>> Anyway just some thoughts.
>> Wendee
>> ~
>> Wendee Holtcamp, M.S. Wildlife Ecology
>> Freelance Writer-Photographer
>>http://www.wendeeholtcamp.com
>>  Bohemian Adventures Blog
>>
>> http://bohemianadventures.blogspot.com
>> ~~~
>>   CRIKEY!
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of stan moore
>> Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 8:25 AM
>> To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
>> Subject: Absolute Addiction to Catastrophic Consumption
>>
>> Folks --
>>
>> It seems like every day, week, or month I see in the mainstream press
>> another matter-of-factly presented alert that a species, an ecosystem, a
>> critical planetary cycle is out of whack, with likely devastating
>> consequences, often sooner rather than later.
>>
>> Polar bears, sage grouse, the North Banks fishery, the western Pacific,
>> major river systems, major aquifers, rain forests, ocean levels rising,
>> desertification, carbon dioxide/global warming, glaciers melting; and the
>> list grows and grows over time with the pace of new alarms itself
>> increasing
>>
>> alarmingly.
>>
>> And the consuming public is told by their government that the solution to
>> "terrorism" is to go shopping.  More ways to shop are devised through
>> electronic and cyber-media and advertising.
>> The Shopping Channel  on television is supplanted by EBay and Craigslist.
>> People tune out the drone of warnings of ecological catastrophe, but 
>> focu=
> s
>> intently on busine

Summary GPS mapping software and handhelds

[Michael E. Welker]

Hello All,

I didn't get many responses at all but here are the replies:=20

1. I use a Garmin GPS connected via cable to my laptop, which is running =

DeLorme Street Atlas. =20

2. Try OziExplorer (c $80) for PC combined with OziExplorerCE (c $30) =20
for PocketPCs/HandheldPCs.  You use the PC program to calibrate (e.g. =20
using Google Earth) any map scanned in or downloaded - so total =20
freedom at to which map you use.  This gets converted to a map format =20
for the handheld to use.  Both PC and PocketPC versions can annotate =20
maps and add trails, and draw realtime tracks of your movement.  You =20
need a GPS card and PocketPC/HandheldPC (or a laptop PC) for in the =20
field.  Possibly more expensive than a GPS unit like Garmin but think =20
of all the extra uses you could put a mobile computer to in the field =20
(e.g. instant spp data entry, behavioural ethograms)

3. I use Delorome's Topo when I'm on the road and mapping with my =
laptop.  As=20
far as I know, it's not picky about which handheld unit that you use.  I =

generally use it with a Garmin eTrex Summit (~$200), but as I understand =

it, it will work with pretty much any unit that is willing to spit out=20
your data to the computer through a data cable.  I like the Delorome=20
software because I know I can buy the individual quad topos if I need to =

($3 each) and have them on the laptop side of things.

I tend to have the setup where I have a datacable that has a split =
cable,=20
after connecting to the unit, one tail is serial (with a USB adapter) =
and=20
connected to the computer, and the other is power into the cigarette=20
lighter.

Here's my setup:
Delorome Topo, Western US ($50)
http://shop.delorme.com/OA_HTML/DELibeCCtpItmDspRte.jsp?section=3D10050&i=
tem=3D23992

Garmin eTrex Summit (~$200)
http://www.garmin.com/products/etrexsummit/

PC Interface power cable ($50 from garmin, $20 online at amazon)
http://shop.garmin.com/accessory.jsp?sku=3D010%2D10268%2D00

I used this setup pretty extensively when doing some field work about =
two=20
summers ago.  I was able to have it on, and in the car, mapping out my=20
points, and a bonus feature is that if you're on roads and you have the=20
coordinates of where you're going, it will give you driving directions =
to=20
places.  I used it many times that way as well when I was looking for=20
national forest campgrounds late at night (Coleman lists the National=20
Forest Campgrounds by GPS coordinates).

4.Attached is an earlier email from this listserver regarding GPS units. =
You
might find it useful. ArcMap 9.2 now has GPS support functionalities =
(i.e.,
GPS toolbar). The GPS device must have an input/output (I/O) interface =
and
be National Marine and Electronics Association (NMEA) compliant. If you =
work
under dense canopies, then you will need an external antenna to improve =
the
signal reception.

The following is a summary of mostly web research on compatibility =
between
Garmin and Magellan GPS systems with ESRI file formats, including =
responses
from ECOLOG subscribers. Thanks especially to Jen Morse, Rebecca Mann,
Sudhir Raj Shrestha, Kimberly Conley, Daniel DeJoode, Pat Swain, Eric
Branton, Doug Adomatis of TravelbyGPS.com, someone whose email address =
leads
me to believe his/her last name is "Picotte" and first initial is "J", =
two
salespeople at the REI store in Durham (NC), and not very much at all to
Garmin and Magellan customer support.

-=
---
Neither Garmin nor Magellan systems offer any compatibility with ESRI
formats. However, several third-party softwares are available that can
seamlessly and easily transfer vector data between shapefile and GPS-
specific formats. The most recommended of these is the Minnesota DNR's =
"DNR
Garmin":

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/mis/gis/tools/arcview/extensions/DNRGarmin/DNR=
Gar
min.html

...which, due to limitations of the GPS firmware, is able only to =
transfer
one attribute field at a time along with point ID, X, Y, Z, and T
coordinates. Other softwares for translating between shapefiles and GPS
formats include "GPS Utility" (http://www.gpsu.co.uk/) and scripts =
written
in Excel, although the MN DNR's program was by far the crowd favorite.

Sadly, no available software is capable of translating raster data from
ESRI-compatible formats to those used in Garmin or Magellan GPS units.
You'll have to buy a Trimble (or Leica?) for that.

If you prefer answers focused and without ornament, you may stop reading
now. What follows are extra bits of knowledge picked up during my =
research.
-=
---

Garmin was the brand recommended unanimously by those polled. (Well,
actually by all but Magellan Customer Support.) The most popular units =
were
in Garmin's eTrex line (especially the Legend and Legend Cx), followed =
by
one vote for the GPSMap 76.

Magellan's MapSend topographic base maps are

Summary of responses regarding ArcGIS extensions and ESRI software

[Michael E. Welker]

nterested in the visualization of habitat areas, 3d
Analyst is a great extension to have.

=20

17. I'm a grad student at Washington University studying impacts of =20
historical and current climate change.  I believe you at least what =20
to get the spatial and geostatistical analyst packages because much =20
of your work will include manipulating raster documents.  Also, =20
Hawths Tools is a set of freeware tools that have been nice to have =20
for quickly constructing minimum convex polygons as well as many =20
other tasks.  I've attached a link to the Hawth's Tools web site so =20
you can check it out for yourself for its utility:   http://=20
www.spatialecology.com/htools/tooldesc.php

=20

18. I recommend Hawth's tools, animal extensions, and spatial analyst, =
especially=20
if you use any telemetry or want to map home ranges and habitat used by=20
wildlife.  Spatial analyst will help you with raster analysis which is a =
great=20
way to id biological hotspots, and I use this often with rare species =
and=20
amphibian modeling.

=20

19. I would recommend getting at least Spatial Analyst.  It is very =
useful when doing habitat work.  A couple of free tools I use often are =
Hawth's tools (which has specific tools for animal movements) and =
XTools.

=20

20. Spatial Analyst is a must.  Geostatistical Analyst may also be a =
good choice=20
depending on what you want to do.  Another one to add is Animal =
Movement:

http://www.absc.usgs.gov/glba/gistools/

=20

21. We conduct multi-scale landscape analyses around our monitoring =
sites. We
use 9.2 with Hawth's Tools and Fragstats.

=20

22. I am not a GIS guy, but I would recommend Spatial Analyst. It is not =
free, but it would expand your ArcView abilities. It allows you do get =
densities and surface contours, spatial statistics, etc, but just as =
importantly many other extensions require Spatial Analyst to work to =
their full potential, or just to work at all.

For example, Animal Movement vs Spatial Movement =
http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/ske/hab/movement/animal_mvmt.htm=20

But, Spatial Analyst costs $$$. There is a description of what it does =
on the ESRI website.=20

Take Care,

Michael E. Welker
Herpetologist / Wildlife Scientist
3105 Eads Place
El Paso, Texas 79935
(915) 595-8831 home
(352) 256-4000 cell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

=20

=20

=20

=20

GPS mapping software and handhelds.

[Michael E. Welker]

Hello All,

I need another recommendation for handheld GPS mapping software and =
units.  The software is the most important aspect of my needs.  I need =
software that is current and accurate especially for trails, ranch =
roads, logging roads, dirt roads and back roads in the US.  I would like =
to be able to discern ownership of roads i.e.. public or private, as =
well.  Garmin's software data is 20 to 30 years old so they are out.  =
Magellan's detail is poor for contours but their data is current.  =
Delorme has great detail in their Gazetteer maps and their software is =
the same but their handheld is a little pricey.  Trimble is high dollar =
and Bushnell has a weird software deal that I couldn't get details on. =20

I want to be able to hook my handheld GPS unit up to my laptop in the =
truck to have GPS for my laptop while mobile and for downloading GPS =
data.  Or I can use the GPS unit as a stand alone auto GPS mounted on =
the dash in a holder.  Both Garmin and Magellan require you use their =
software for their units.  I will use the GPS and software to find my =
way on back roads, ranch roads and logging roads in my vehicle and for =
the same on foot in the field, GPS points of localities and also turn by =
turn directions and info for finding gas, food and motels.  I just =
purchased ArcGIS 9.2 so I have that.  I also don't want to have to carry =
a bunch of data cards with my GPS unit to get the map detail I need.  I =
travel all over the US.  What about color versus black & white screen?  =
Screen size?  Finally, I don't want to spend a fortune.  What do you =
guys suggest?  Any thoughts? Ideas? Recommendations?  I appreciate your =
help with this and I will summarize and post the responses to the list.

Take Care,

Michael E. Welker
Herpetologist / Wildlife Scientist
3105 Eads Place
El Paso, Texas 79935
(915) 595-8831 home
(352) 256-4000 cell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   

Mobile Weather Data Stations and Weather Data

[Michael E. Welker]

Hello All,

I am going to be collecting weather data for all the herps species I =
encounter in the field.  I want to try and see if I can develop any =
useful data as far as the activity level of the species during specific =
weather conditions and any other useful information about activity =
levels or thermoregulation conditions.  I need input on two questions. =
1.) What weather data should be gathered?  2.) What portable, accurate, =
quick detection mobile weather station devices do you recommend?

I have already determined that I should probably get the following:

wind direction
wind speed
air temperature=20
surface/substrate temperature
animal temperature: Do those infrared point and shoot thermometers harm =
animals?  Are they accurate?  Internal animal temp. probably different =
than surface animal temp.?
humidity
barometric pressure
precipitation:  How do you measure accurately and quickly?
cloud cover:  How do you measure accurately and quickly?
amount of sunshine:  How do you measure accurately and quickly?

What about: dew point, heat index, wind chill, UV, anything else?

I have looked at the Kestrel devices they seem to be ideal?

Thoughts, opinions and recommendations?

Take Care,

Michael E. Welker
Herpetologist / Wildlife Scientist
3105 Eads Place
El Paso, Texas 79935
(915) 595-8831 home
(352) 256-4000 cell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

ArcGIS extensions and ESRI software

[Michael E. Welker]

Hello All,

I am purchasing a full permanent licensed version of ArcGIS 9.2.  I want =
to know what extensions or other ESRI software you all recommend for =
conducting wildlife research and conservation work in ArcGIS?  Please =
let me know and thanks for your input.

Take Care,

Michael E. Welker
Herpetologist / Wildlife Scientist
3105 Eads Place
El Paso, Texas 79935
(915) 595-8831 home
(352) 256-4000 cell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: A scorpion trap ???

[Michael E. Welker]

Dr. Voltolini,

As Mike Nolan suggested a pit fall trap.  In the field of herpetology we use 
5 gallon plastic buckets buried in the ground until they are flush with the 
ground surface.  These are usually placed along a drift fence.  They catch 
scorpions with high success.  You should be able to find out all the info 
you need about drift fences with pit fall traps Online.  Many species of 
scorpions will illuminate when a black light is shown on them.  Many 
scorpion harvesters and researchers use a black light and walk around in the 
desert at night.  They can be found by road cruising at night down dirt 
roads.  They can be field hunted by flipping over cover objects (like rocks 
in the desert) and they can be found behind loose tree bark.  Another 
trapping method that has caught scorpions is the trap the US Forest Service 
uses to survey for invertebrates.  I think they are the ones used to trap 
for bark beetles but I am not sure.  I hope this helps.

Take Care,

Mike Welker
Herpetologist
El Paso, TX

- Original Message - 
From: "VOLTOLINI" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 5:29 AM
Subject: A scorpion trap ???


> Dear friends,
>
>
> Does anybody know about a TRAP to capture scorpions?
>
>
> Thanks for any help!!!
>
>
>
>
>   Voltolini
> =20
>
> 
> Prof. Dr. J. C. VOLTOLINI
> Grupo de Estudos em Ecologia de Mamiferos (ECOMAM)
> Universidade de Taubate - Departamento de Biologia
> Taubate, SP. 12030-010. E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Website do ECOMAM: http://jcvoltol.sites.uol.com.br/
> Fotos de Cursos: http://jcvoltol.fotoblog.uol.com.br/
> Curr=EDculo Lattes: http://lattes.cnpq.br/8137155809735635
> Fotos Art=EDsticas: http://voltolini.fotos.net.br/texturas
> 
>
>
> "Siamo tutti angeli con un'ala e possiamo volare soltanto se =
> ciabbracciamo" 

Grievance process a joke to begin with;Re: gender bias: a summary of ecolog-L responses

[Michael E. Welker]

All,

The whole grievance process is a joke to begin with.  The university polices 
itself?  Yea right!  No justice will ever be served.  When it comes to 
employee versus professor or grad student versus professor the professor 
wins every time.  I am going through a grievance process right now with an 
unnamed university in Tuscaloosa Alabama.  The professor violated over 23 
university policies (have emails to prove it) but they still stand by her 
side.  She is one of those that will step on ANYONE to get to the top.  My 
grievance is 326 pages long but no justice yet.  However, I have upwards of 
20 agencies, cooperators, granting agency personnel, law enforcement 
individuals, IACUC and other university offices I plan on in forming 
concerning her misconduct and it isn't just about the 23 university policies 
she violated!  I have only just begun.

There needs to be a system in place that allows students and employees to 
grieve to a non-university entity.  This body should have the ability to 
police the university in regards to the issue(s) at hand.  Professors should 
be held accountable for their misconduct and a discipline system set up. 
>From my research in regards to my situation these problems are only growing 
and the universities are making the grievance process null and void.  They 
have a grievance process, however, it is prohibitively restrictive and in 
essence not a grievance process but a paper tiger, per se.  It is just a 
formality required by the US Department of Education.

The current outcome of these situations is:

1. An incompetent professor advances through the academic system and is 
rewarded for their misconduct.
2. The university becomes an enabler and covers up for the professor there 
by becoming a willing participant and just as guilty as the professor.
3. The employee or grad student gets screwed having to make a life change 
that costs an individual financially and emotionally along with the toll on 
their family and friends.
4. The education and scientific community are slighted not to mention any 
ramifications in regards to the impact to organisms and ecosystems because 
of this misconduct.
5. The communities are robbed of a talented worker or grad student.

This needs to change.  We need accountability, fairness, honesty, 
acceptance, ethics and accessible justice w/o having to resort to legal 
action and/or a campaign to see the justice deserved.  We should be working 
on conserving natural resources instead of this!

Take Care,

Mike Welker

- Original Message - 
From: "William Silvert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 4:01 AM
Subject: Re: gender bias: a summary of ecolog-L responses


>I am glad that Dina Fonseca made some substantive contribution to the
> discussion of what can be done to address the problem of gender
> discrimination, although it is unfortunate that so many of these postings
> have to begin with a gratuitous insult. She is absolutely right, all
> institutions (not just universities) must have clear policies on how to 
> deal
> with discrimination of all types. It is more and more common to have an
> Ombudsman's office, but however it is handled, there must be a clear,
> trusted and safe avenue for addressing complaints.
>
> However she is also right in pointing out that there are complications in
> academia. If a student files a grievance against her advisor, and he is 
> the
> only faculty member in her specialty, where does she go from there? I 
> think
> we need to consider the possibility that a student might need to transfer 
> to
> another institution if the issue cannot be resolved, so inter-university
> cooperation is needed.
>
> There are more aspects of this that need discussing, but rather than 
> provide
> moe fodder for accusations of clichés I'll leave it at that.
>
> Bill Silvert
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Dina Fonseca" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 1:10 AM
> Subject: Re: gender bias: a summary of ecolog-L responses
>
>
>> To address Bill Silvert's point that "women on the list have been
>> describing
>> their experiences, [...] the men are trying to identify the scope of the
>> problem and talk about what can be done about it" And what a cliché this
>> is,
>> no? But lets go on.
>>
>> Women have been describing their experiences because for the most part
>> only
>> they can provide the data first hand when addressing gender bias against
>> females - which was the topic under discussion.
>>
>> I have actually learned quite a bit since the beginning of this 
>> discussion
>> (especially through 1-on-1 exchanges) about how much discrimination women
>> have experienced and are experiencing. It seems, as expected, that the
>> bulk
>> of it (at least the most overt discrimination) happens during the most
>> vulnerable stages (grad and postdoc).
>>
>> And that leads me to want to know "What can be done about it?"
>>
>> Are there established channels

Response to Matt;Re: Ecological Equality?

[Michael E. Welker]

Matt and All,

"I have struggled with age issues as an interviewer for semi-low level
positions.  It can be hard to think an older candidate with lots of
experience might not buy into the position compared to a recent grad
that will do almost anything they are asked.  Again, such factors should
not be part of the decision process and I'd like to think I didn't allow
my decisions to be swayed by a candidate's age."

I just got terminated from a position because of unreasonable expectations 
by my "academic" boss.  It was her first major grant and she did not know 
what she was doing.  I have 20 years of experience.  I filed a 326 page 
grievance against her.  She fired my co-worker only after being there a 
month just because he worked with me.  He was a top notch worker and he 
performed his job 100% as did I.  He had just moved across country and I had 
moved my family across country a year earlier.  One of her grad students is 
leaving as well because of her.  Lets be clear here.  An older candidate has 
more experience and will not stand for being treated like a slave and a dog 
(no offense to dogs).  The problem with some academia is 1) they think they 
know it all...they don't, elitist attitude. 2.) They treat employees like 
they treat their graduate students...like do-do. 3) All they care about is 
their selves and getting tenurestep on who ever to get to the top. 
3.)Many are straight studentsstraight from high school to college to 
grad school. no real life experiences, never been a boss, never had 
a real job and many have not done field work and then they get grants for 
field work. Yes, you can treat current and recent students like slaves and 
dogs and ask them to do anything.  If you are wrong and are making mistakes 
the older individuals will let you know so it can be fixed.  They have the 
experience and they know it is better to catch things at the beginning.  But 
sometimes they get retaliated against (even though they are right) because 
they are not cowering to the great academic. Let's be clear.  Look at how 
you treat both grad students and employees because you may be wrong and 
treating them bad.  I have seen this over and over in my 20 years working 
with academia.

Take Care,

MW

- Original Message - 
From: "Buffington, Matt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: Ecological Equality?


> Do/can universities ask questions about marital status and kids?  When
> I've been an interviewER, the committee was told such questions were not
> allowable.  As an interviewEE, I don't recall such questions but they
> may have ocurred.  A lot can be inferred during an interview, even more
> during any chit-chat, but such questions should not be part of the
> decision process.
>
> I have struggled with age issues as an interviewer for semi-low level
> positions.  It can be hard to think an older candidate with lots of
> experience might not buy into the position compared to a recent grad
> that will do almost anything they are asked.  Again, such factors should
> not be part of the decision process and I'd like to think I didn't allow
> my decisions to be swayed by a candidate's age.
>
> Matt Buffington
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Allcock, Kim
> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 2:47 PM
> To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU
> Subject: Re: Ecological Equality?
>
> Brit, and ecologgers:
>
> We professional moms already have too few hours in the day to work and
> take care of our families; we can't afford to spend time chatting on
> list-serves! However, this topic is important and one that I am
> currently grappling with so I wanted to add my perspective.
>
> I am just wrapping up my post-doc and beginning to apply for faculty
> positions. I have two young children (ages 4 and 1). I have not faced
> any outright discrimination based on gender or family status, but I do
> feel like the odds are against me. I have the impression that the
> general attitude is: having children was my choice, and if I want to be
> competitive in this field I can't let that affect my professional
> performance. As I begin my search for an academic job, I realize that my
> unmarried, childless, or male competitors often have fewer demands on
> their time, and can therefore devote substantially more time and energy
> to their research. Competition for academic jobs is stiff, and who's to
> blame an institution for choosing a candidate with the ability to
> produce more for the same salary, or for passing me up for tenure in
> favor of someone else? It is a major conundrum that the years of family
> building and career building coincide. It is also a reason why the
> proportion of women to men in ecology shifts so dramatically from
> undergrad, to grad, to post-doc, to faculty. Many of us become not
> X-gals as in the Chronicles article, but 'EX-gals' - highly e