Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
I have no argument with Stacy Rosenbaum's advice. By all means, if you can come up with your own project and propose it, do so. However, I approached it a bit differently. (Disclaimer: I have an M.S., not a Ph.D.) I chose a lab that was doing a variety of work in line with my interests; then, when the professor mentioned that there were a few projects he'd been wanting to get to but hadn't had the opportunity, I asked him to tell me about them. I ended up doing one of them. No, it wasn't an idea I would have come up with myself; but it was one that captured my interest, and I got on board wholeheartedly, and I learned a lot about what makes an interesting question and how to answer it, that I would not necessarily have learned from the kinds of questions I ordinarily thought to ask. Then, too, we all know the reality is that after grad school, we will go into the job market, and spend a period of time working on other people's projects. None of us will ever go straight from grad student to PI. It will be to your advantage to be willing and able to devote your time and efforts to a project you did not develop, and turn out quality work under that condition. Jason Hernandez Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 03:27:01 + From: Rosenbaum, Stacy srosenb...@lpzoo.org Subject: Re: Graduate School Advice Hi Emily, I am about one year post PhD. I approached a few professors with a project = idea in mind. A couple said This is interesting but my lab isn't the right= place to do it, and one (who became my advisor) expressed admiration for = the initiative that I took in coming up with my own ideas. In my experience= , the people who go to grad school and just wait for their advisor to hand = them a project come out worse prepared than those who enthusiastically purs= ue their own questions/interests. They might learn the technical, writing, = etc. skills needed to complete a research project, but they haven't been th= rough the important (and more nuanced) process of coming up with an interes= ting, testable question, and wrestling with how best to answer it. No advis= or that you would actually want to work with would think less of you for ap= proaching them with an idea. On the contrary, it's a pretty good indicator = that you're likely to be a successful graduate student.=20 There has been a lot of good advice shared here about talking to everyone a= nd anyone. The more information gathering you do, the more likely you are t= o find a program and advisor who is a good fit. The entire process of gradu= ate school is not a one-size-fits-all endeavor. One of the most valuable th= ings I gained from the experience was learning how to take responsibility f= or my own learning, mistakes and all.=20 Would I do it again? In a heartbeat. Even if you don't end up staying in ac= ademia, it's worthwhile. Note that despite his declaration that grad school= is a waste of time, Dr. Dossey signs his name followed by PhD and field. S= omebody who truly didn't think graduate school had any value would not cont= inue to profess the academic qualifications it afforded him.=20 Cheers,=20 Stacy Rosenbaum Behavioral Endocrinology Postdoctoral Fellow Davee Center for Epidemiology and Endocrinology Lincoln Park Zoo Ph: 312-742-2250 srosenb...@lpzoo.org On May 28, 2015, at 5:10 AM, Robert Pettit rdpetti...@gmail.com wrote: Emily, =20 As someone who just wrapped up a graduate degree program and has watched = all the joy and sorrow that can bring (to me and my classmates) I would say= you need to know where to strike the balance between sticking to your guns= and being adaptable. Maybe your dream professor will string you along and = the funding won=92t work correctly, that is hardly a unique experience. But= hopefully if that occurs you will have been talking to a few other pretty = good professors, one of whom will have space for you in their lab. Basicall= y don=92t put all your eggs in one basket and make sure you are talking to = absolutely everyone, you never know what the person next to you at the conf= erence is thinking about.=20 =20
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
Hi Emily, Read the book: *Getting What You Came For *by Robert Peters http://www.amazon.com/Getting-What-You-Came-For/dp/0374524777 Very good advice (a big perspective) on why to apply or not to apply to graduate school in science [but also all graduate school in general] and it also gives you advice for once you're in on how to approach graduate school. It is organized into clearly titled chapters, so you don't need to read the entire book cover to cover to obtain the advice you want from it. This guy wrote this book nearly 25 years ago and yet it is still extremely relevant. Good luck! -Hannah -- Hannah Lyons-Galante hlyonsgala...@gmail.com hlyonsgala...@post.harvard.edu
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
Aaron's response does not extend past conversations being had on this listserv regarding the predatory nature of the sciences upon graduate students, postdocs, tenure-seeking professors, and end-of-career tenured professors. While Aaron clearly generalizes, his is a practical warning about the dangers of being naive, and the listserv has openly discussed so many of these issues over the past few years: - There are many scientists on the lower levels who are being taken advantage of as cheap labor while not having legitimate opportunities to enter their chosen career. - There is not much funding to match the needs of as many of the scientists as in the past. - Career prospects are delayed, and are fewer than in the past. - A very large percent of graduate students are not exercising enough brilliance to be relevant in academia. To have such discussions commonly on the listserv, then act towards Ms. Mydlowski as if Aaron's note is unusual is indicative of ignorance, or worse, intentionally misleading. Shouldn't we regularly inform incoming graduate students of the systemic issues in STEM fields - the ones that we're all talking about here on the ecology listserv, alongside offering them guidance on how to navigate the system? It's fine to call Aaron on his one-sided evaluation. However, he is reframing the debate on whether choosing a career involving higher academia is something that a person who values themself would do, and on what terms one can have the best chance at a fulfilling career. Best, Jon Jonathan Colburn, M.Sc. | 352.328.7610 Founder and CEO, Nyssa Ecological, Inc. | nyssaecological.com ISA arborist, certificate no. FL-6572A On May 27, 2015 2:41 PM, Emily Mydlowski emilymydlow...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all, I'm delving into the graduate school search (MS and PhD programs) quite heavily and am seeking advice regarding approaching faculty with a research project. The system I'm interested in working on is that which has many unanswered, interesting questions I would love to pursue. From a faculty perspective, is proposing a project topic (too) bold of a move to a potential advisor? Any advice would be much appreciated. All the best, Emily Mydlowski Northern Michigan University
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
Hi Emily, I am about one year post PhD. I approached a few professors with a project idea in mind. A couple said This is interesting but my lab isn't the right place to do it, and one (who became my advisor) expressed admiration for the initiative that I took in coming up with my own ideas. In my experience, the people who go to grad school and just wait for their advisor to hand them a project come out worse prepared than those who enthusiastically pursue their own questions/interests. They might learn the technical, writing, etc. skills needed to complete a research project, but they haven't been through the important (and more nuanced) process of coming up with an interesting, testable question, and wrestling with how best to answer it. No advisor that you would actually want to work with would think less of you for approaching them with an idea. On the contrary, it's a pretty good indicator that you're likely to be a successful graduate student. There has been a lot of good advice shared here about talking to everyone and anyone. The more information gathering you do, the more likely you are to find a program and advisor who is a good fit. The entire process of graduate school is not a one-size-fits-all endeavor. One of the most valuable things I gained from the experience was learning how to take responsibility for my own learning, mistakes and all. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat. Even if you don't end up staying in academia, it's worthwhile. Note that despite his declaration that grad school is a waste of time, Dr. Dossey signs his name followed by PhD and field. Somebody who truly didn't think graduate school had any value would not continue to profess the academic qualifications it afforded him. Cheers, Stacy Rosenbaum Behavioral Endocrinology Postdoctoral Fellow Davee Center for Epidemiology and Endocrinology Lincoln Park Zoo Ph: 312-742-2250 srosenb...@lpzoo.org On May 28, 2015, at 5:10 AM, Robert Pettit rdpetti...@gmail.com wrote: Emily, As someone who just wrapped up a graduate degree program and has watched all the joy and sorrow that can bring (to me and my classmates) I would say you need to know where to strike the balance between sticking to your guns and being adaptable. Maybe your dream professor will string you along and the funding won’t work correctly, that is hardly a unique experience. But hopefully if that occurs you will have been talking to a few other pretty good professors, one of whom will have space for you in their lab. Basically don’t put all your eggs in one basket and make sure you are talking to absolutely everyone, you never know what the person next to you at the conference is thinking about. Hope this helps, Rob On May 28, 2015, at 12:17 AM, Malcolm McCallum malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to know what to do in graduate school, how to go about being in graduate school, and how to be a success in graduate school, and successfully find a job after graduate school, Read this: P.B. Medawar, Advice to a Young Scientist http://www.amazon.com/Advice-Scientist-Alfred-Foundation-Series/dp/0465000924 It will be the best $5 (used) you ever spent. or, read a free online copy and spend your $5 to get lunch and read the entire thing while eating http://evolbiol.ru/medawar_advice/medawar.htm Now, I will say that some of the advice after graduation is more attune to someone in a research school or research-focused department. That fish won't bite in a teaching school, or a non-research school/department. The guy won a Nobel Prize, he probably has a clue. In any case, the bottom line is no two lives follow the same road. Take yours, and hopefully it will be fruitful. On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 11:14 PM, Malcolm McCallum malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to know what to do in graduate school, how to go about being in graduate school, and how to be a success in graduate school, and successfully find a job after graduate school, Read this: P.B. Medawar http://www.amazon.com/Advice-Scientist-Alfred-Foundation-Series/dp/0465000924 It will be the best $5 (used) you ever spent. Now, I will say that some of the advice after graduation is more attune to someone in a research school or research-focused department. That fish won't bite in a teaching school, or a non-research school/department. In any case, the bottom line is no two lives follow the same road. Take yours, and hopefully it will be fruitful. malcolm On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 1:21 PM, Emily Mydlowski emilymydlow...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all, I'm delving into the graduate school search (MS and PhD programs) quite heavily and am seeking advice regarding approaching faculty with a research project. The system I'm interested in working on is that which has many unanswered, interesting questions I would love to pursue. From a faculty
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
Dear Emily, Graduate School was the best time of my life. I recommend it without reservation IF you pick a compatible adviser to help you. As a Graduate Dean and a Professor, I have seen the mentee-mentor relationship both flourish and sour. When it goes well, the student has a great experience, finds the right job, and lives a happy life. When it goes bad, the student typically does not fare well. Bad mentors fall under many categories and, quite frankly, it is like a marriage. It is all about give and take on the part of both sides. If one side does not quite maintain the balancing act, the whole shebang breaks down. So, pick your mentor and your home department (and committee members) wisely. One other thought- Even the best advisers will fail you if they can't provide the resources necessary to feed your curiosity. Make sure you have what you need (e.g., helpers, equipment, supplies, colleagues) to be successful BEFORE committing to a graduate program. Best - Jim Garvey Interim Vice Chancellor for Research Graduate Dean Southern Illinois University Carbondale Join us in 2017: eclipse.siu.edu For Office of VCR: o...@siu.edu For Graduate School: grad.deansoff...@siu.edu From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU on behalf of Rosenbaum, Stacy srosenb...@lpzoo.org Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2015 10:27 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice Hi Emily, I am about one year post PhD. I approached a few professors with a project idea in mind. A couple said This is interesting but my lab isn't the right place to do it, and one (who became my advisor) expressed admiration for the initiative that I took in coming up with my own ideas. In my experience, the people who go to grad school and just wait for their advisor to hand them a project come out worse prepared than those who enthusiastically pursue their own questions/interests. They might learn the technical, writing, etc. skills needed to complete a research project, but they haven't been through the important (and more nuanced) process of coming up with an interesting, testable question, and wrestling with how best to answer it. No advisor that you would actually want to work with would think less of you for approaching them with an idea. On the contrary, it's a pretty good indicator that you're likely to be a successful graduate student. There has been a lot of good advice shared here about talking to everyone and anyone. The more information gathering you do, the more likely you are to find a program and advisor who is a good fit. The entire process of graduate school is not a one-size-fits-all endeavor. One of the most valuable things I gained from the experience was learning how to take responsibility for my own learning, mistakes and all. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat. Even if you don't end up staying in academia, it's worthwhile. Note that despite his declaration that grad school is a waste of time, Dr. Dossey signs his name followed by PhD and field. Somebody who truly didn't think graduate school had any value would not continue to profess the academic qualifications it afforded him. Cheers, Stacy Rosenbaum Behavioral Endocrinology Postdoctoral Fellow Davee Center for Epidemiology and Endocrinology Lincoln Park Zoo Ph: 312-742-2250 srosenb...@lpzoo.org On May 28, 2015, at 5:10 AM, Robert Pettit rdpetti...@gmail.com wrote: Emily, As someone who just wrapped up a graduate degree program and has watched all the joy and sorrow that can bring (to me and my classmates) I would say you need to know where to strike the balance between sticking to your guns and being adaptable. Maybe your dream professor will string you along and the funding won’t work correctly, that is hardly a unique experience. But hopefully if that occurs you will have been talking to a few other pretty good professors, one of whom will have space for you in their lab. Basically don’t put all your eggs in one basket and make sure you are talking to absolutely everyone, you never know what the person next to you at the conference is thinking about. Hope this helps, Rob On May 28, 2015, at 12:17 AM, Malcolm McCallum malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to know what to do in graduate school, how to go about being in graduate school, and how to be a success in graduate school, and successfully find a job after graduate school, Read this: P.B. Medawar, Advice to a Young Scientist http://www.amazon.com/Advice-Scientist-Alfred-Foundation-Series/dp/0465000924 It will be the best $5 (used) you ever spent. or, read a free online copy and spend your $5 to get lunch and read the entire thing while eating http://evolbiol.ru/medawar_advice/medawar.htm Now, I will say that some of the advice after graduation is more attune to someone in a research school
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
Not so. Aaron continues to make the point that all of academia is corrupt and headed in the wrong direction based on his own troubling experience. This broad stroke approach gets the debate going, largely because it has a personal attack on all, regardless of whether guilty or innocent of the charges that all academic mentors have taken advantage of graduate students. I find this to be a gross oversight by Aaron and would prefer that he present a more balanced argument and acknowledge that there are good, trustworthy, and Œdecent¹ mentors in academia that have genuine concern for students. To not do so brings into question his entire argument and credibility at any level. Steve On 5/28/15, 1:47 PM, Jonathan Colburn col...@gmail.com wrote: Aaron's response does not extend past conversations being had on this listserv regarding the predatory nature of the sciences upon graduate students, postdocs, tenure-seeking professors, and end-of-career tenured professors. While Aaron clearly generalizes, his is a practical warning about the dangers of being naive, and the listserv has openly discussed so many of these issues over the past few years: - There are many scientists on the lower levels who are being taken advantage of as cheap labor while not having legitimate opportunities to enter their chosen career. - There is not much funding to match the needs of as many of the scientists as in the past. - Career prospects are delayed, and are fewer than in the past. - A very large percent of graduate students are not exercising enough brilliance to be relevant in academia. To have such discussions commonly on the listserv, then act towards Ms. Mydlowski as if Aaron's note is unusual is indicative of ignorance, or worse, intentionally misleading. Shouldn't we regularly inform incoming graduate students of the systemic issues in STEM fields - the ones that we're all talking about here on the ecology listserv, alongside offering them guidance on how to navigate the system? It's fine to call Aaron on his one-sided evaluation. However, he is reframing the debate on whether choosing a career involving higher academia is something that a person who values themself would do, and on what terms one can have the best chance at a fulfilling career. Best, Jon Jonathan Colburn, M.Sc. | 352.328.7610 Founder and CEO, Nyssa Ecological, Inc. | nyssaecological.com ISA arborist, certificate no. FL-6572A On May 27, 2015 2:41 PM, Emily Mydlowski emilymydlow...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all, I'm delving into the graduate school search (MS and PhD programs) quite heavily and am seeking advice regarding approaching faculty with a research project. The system I'm interested in working on is that which has many unanswered, interesting questions I would love to pursue. From a faculty perspective, is proposing a project topic (too) bold of a move to a potential advisor? Any advice would be much appreciated. All the best, Emily Mydlowski Northern Michigan University
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
I would never keep someone in my lab for my own purposes or those of the department or university. Why? Not only is it unethical it is totally counterproductive. The person has skills/talents that could be used elsewhere, so let them go. Let them be their best and reach their highest potential. We have a moral obligation to see someone do and be their best. The focus on money has clouded our vision and instead of thinking about what we can do with what we have, we only think of what we can’t do and could only do better or more of if we had more. Ideas are free. If you have one or more, then share. Keep sharing and keep getting new ones. Why lock them up or fear that others might *steal* them? If they use them for the greater good, then fine. If not, then move on. Our society and science is not going to advance when we restrict others, keep ideas to ourselves, or dwell on the negative. We only end up hurting ourselves. Steve From: Malcolm McCallum malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.commailto:malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com Date: Friday, May 29, 2015 at 11:06 AM To: Steve Young sl...@cornell.edumailto:sl...@cornell.edu Cc: ecolog ECOLOG-L@listserv.umd.edumailto:ECOLOG-L@listserv.umd.edu Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice I am here offering an observation I had a few years back in regard to postdocs and advisors. i have a friend who was workig as a hard-money postdoc at a middle tier R1. This guy was incrediblely talented. the area of research he did was kinetics of proteins. essentialy, his advisor's lab was being fueled to a large degree (at times up to 100%) by this single postdocs' efforts. the advisor was enormously supportive of him. And this guy did get interviews. he had the restriction that his research area required access to cerrtain high-ticket instrumentation, so he really could only apply to the mega-universities with big budget start ups. One day I walked into the dept head's office for business, and he was writing a reference letter for this pd. i mentioned that i found it amazing he had been locked into a PD for so long. The Head remarked that it was hard writing the letter because, on one hand he liked the guy and he really wanted him to do well. On the other hand, he was so valuable to the department, he really did not want him to gobut hiring him is not an option. today, it occurred to me that this scenario might be more widespread than this single instance. think about it. You are a doctoral/postdoctoral advisor, the chair of a dept or whatever, and the most valuable PD asks you for a reference. You can kill that applicant completely unintentionally simply due to the internal bias arising from personal gain. A conflict of interest of sorts. To avoid this, i wonder if any advisors ever ask a third party to read over their letter for accidental inclusions that are unintentionally damaging to the candidate? Then, from an applicant's perspective, I wonder how many people use the exact same three references on every application? I would love for someone to comment on this. Also, it might be good advise for advisors to ask someone they trust to read over a letter to make sure it sounds the way you intend. I also advise applicants to rotate through 4-5 or more letter writers. For applicants, this would reduce workloads on your references and it would also help to water down the effects of possible mis-speak, conflicts of interest, and even deliberate trashing. from the letter writer's perspective, it will help make sure the person you are writing for gets the due diligence you intend to deliver. I would really like to hear the thoughts about this, because I really can believe that indeliberate actions in all areas of life are more damaging than the sum total of deliberate actions that people take. Its kind of like non-verbal cues during communication. More information is delivered unintentionally than intentionally. Malcolm On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Stephen L. Young sl...@cornell.edumailto:sl...@cornell.edu wrote: Not so. Aaron continues to make the point that all of academia is corrupt and headed in the wrong direction based on his own troubling experience. This broad stroke approach gets the debate going, largely because it has a personal attack on all, regardless of whether guilty or innocent of the charges that all academic mentors have taken advantage of graduate students. I find this to be a gross oversight by Aaron and would prefer that he present a more balanced argument and acknowledge that there are good, trustworthy, and Œdecent¹ mentors in academia that have genuine concern for students. To not do so brings into question his entire argument and credibility at any level. Steve On 5/28/15, 1:47 PM, Jonathan Colburn col...@gmail.commailto:col...@gmail.com wrote: Aaron's response does not extend past conversations being had on this listserv regarding the predatory nature of the sciences
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
I am here offering an observation I had a few years back in regard to postdocs and advisors. i have a friend who was workig as a hard-money postdoc at a middle tier R1. This guy was incrediblely talented. the area of research he did was kinetics of proteins. essentialy, his advisor's lab was being fueled to a large degree (at times up to 100%) by this single postdocs' efforts. the advisor was enormously supportive of him. And this guy did get interviews. he had the restriction that his research area required access to cerrtain high-ticket instrumentation, so he really could only apply to the mega-universities with big budget start ups. One day I walked into the dept head's office for business, and he was writing a reference letter for this pd. i mentioned that i found it amazing he had been locked into a PD for so long. The Head remarked that it was hard writing the letter because, on one hand he liked the guy and he really wanted him to do well. On the other hand, he was so valuable to the department, he really did not want him to gobut hiring him is not an option. today, it occurred to me that this scenario might be more widespread than this single instance. think about it. You are a doctoral/postdoctoral advisor, the chair of a dept or whatever, and the most valuable PD asks you for a reference. You can kill that applicant completely unintentionally simply due to the internal bias arising from personal gain. A conflict of interest of sorts. To avoid this, i wonder if any advisors ever ask a third party to read over their letter for accidental inclusions that are unintentionally damaging to the candidate? Then, from an applicant's perspective, I wonder how many people use the exact same three references on every application? I would love for someone to comment on this. Also, it might be good advise for advisors to ask someone they trust to read over a letter to make sure it sounds the way you intend. I also advise applicants to rotate through 4-5 or more letter writers. For applicants, this would reduce workloads on your references and it would also help to water down the effects of possible mis-speak, conflicts of interest, and even deliberate trashing. from the letter writer's perspective, it will help make sure the person you are writing for gets the due diligence you intend to deliver. I would really like to hear the thoughts about this, because I really can believe that indeliberate actions in all areas of life are more damaging than the sum total of deliberate actions that people take. Its kind of like non-verbal cues during communication. More information is delivered unintentionally than intentionally. Malcolm On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 9:13 AM, Stephen L. Young sl...@cornell.edu wrote: Not so. Aaron continues to make the point that all of academia is corrupt and headed in the wrong direction based on his own troubling experience. This broad stroke approach gets the debate going, largely because it has a personal attack on all, regardless of whether guilty or innocent of the charges that all academic mentors have taken advantage of graduate students. I find this to be a gross oversight by Aaron and would prefer that he present a more balanced argument and acknowledge that there are good, trustworthy, and Œdecent¹ mentors in academia that have genuine concern for students. To not do so brings into question his entire argument and credibility at any level. Steve On 5/28/15, 1:47 PM, Jonathan Colburn col...@gmail.com wrote: Aaron's response does not extend past conversations being had on this listserv regarding the predatory nature of the sciences upon graduate students, postdocs, tenure-seeking professors, and end-of-career tenured professors. While Aaron clearly generalizes, his is a practical warning about the dangers of being naive, and the listserv has openly discussed so many of these issues over the past few years: - There are many scientists on the lower levels who are being taken advantage of as cheap labor while not having legitimate opportunities to enter their chosen career. - There is not much funding to match the needs of as many of the scientists as in the past. - Career prospects are delayed, and are fewer than in the past. - A very large percent of graduate students are not exercising enough brilliance to be relevant in academia. To have such discussions commonly on the listserv, then act towards Ms. Mydlowski as if Aaron's note is unusual is indicative of ignorance, or worse, intentionally misleading. Shouldn't we regularly inform incoming graduate students of the systemic issues in STEM fields - the ones that we're all talking about here on the ecology listserv, alongside offering them guidance on how to navigate the system? It's fine to call Aaron on his one-sided evaluation. However, he is reframing the debate on whether choosing a career involving higher academia is something that a person who
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
I agree with you one hundred percent Rosemary. Whatever happens during or after a graduate training, the whole venture can never be said to be a total waste of time if one came in seeking to diligently apply themselves to adding on or improving their skills set. After all, the inquisitive human brain never really stops learning until it is completely rendered waste or dead. If you are that kind of person who is excited learning new skills, then grad school could never be turn out as a total waste of time except risking to remain financially volatile or family delayed for longer than would be preferred. If nothing all, you get to meet new people, good or bad that may become quite motivational to the next steps in ones life. Akwasi --- Original Message --- From: Rosenbaum, Stacy srosenb...@lpzoo.org Sent: 29 May 2015 13:47 To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice Hi Emily, I am about one year post PhD. I approached a few professors with a project idea in mind. A couple said This is interesting but my lab isn't the right place to do it, and one (who became my advisor) expressed admiration for the initiative that I took in coming up with my own ideas. In my experience, the people who go to grad school and just wait for their advisor to hand them a project come out worse prepared than those who enthusiastically pursue their own questions/interests. They might learn the technical, writing, etc. skills needed to complete a research project, but they haven't been through the important (and more nuanced) process of coming up with an interesting, testable question, and wrestling with how best to answer it. No advisor that you would actually want to work with would think less of you for approaching them with an idea. On the contrary, it's a pretty good indicator that you're likely to be a successful graduate student. There has been a lot of good advice shared here about talking to everyone and anyone. The more information gathering you do, the more likely you are to find a program and advisor who is a good fit. The entire process of graduate school is not a one-size-fits-all endeavor. One of the most valuable things I gained from the experience was learning how to take responsibility for my own learning, mistakes and all. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat. Even if you don't end up staying in academia, it's worthwhile. Note that despite his declaration that grad school is a waste of time, Dr. Dossey signs his name followed by PhD and field. Somebody who truly didn't think graduate school had any value would not continue to profess the academic qualifications it afforded him. Cheers, Stacy Rosenbaum Behavioral Endocrinology Postdoctoral Fellow Davee Center for Epidemiology and Endocrinology Lincoln Park Zoo Ph: 312-742-2250 srosenb...@lpzoo.org On May 28, 2015, at 5:10 AM, Robert Pettit rdpetti...@gmail.com wrote: Emily, As someone who just wrapped up a graduate degree program and has watched all the joy and sorrow that can bring (to me and my classmates) I would say you need to know where to strike the balance between sticking to your guns and being adaptable. Maybe your dream professor will string you along and the funding won’t work correctly, that is hardly a unique experience. But hopefully if that occurs you will have been talking to a few other pretty good professors, one of whom will have space for you in their lab. Basically don’t put all your eggs in one basket and make sure you are talking to absolutely everyone, you never know what the person next to you at the conference is thinking about. Hope this helps, Rob On May 28, 2015, at 12:17 AM, Malcolm McCallum malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to know what to do in graduate school, how to go about being in graduate school, and how to be a success in graduate school, and successfully find a job after graduate school, Read this: P.B. Medawar, Advice to a Young Scientist http://www.amazon.com/Advice-Scientist-Alfred-Foundation-Series/dp/0465000924 It will be the best $5 (used) you ever spent. or, read a free online copy and spend your $5 to get lunch and read the entire thing while eating http://evolbiol.ru/medawar_advice/medawar.htm Now, I will say that some of the advice after graduation is more attune to someone in a research school or research-focused department. That fish won't bite in a teaching school, or a non-research school/department. The guy won a Nobel Prize, he probably has a clue. In any case, the bottom line is no two lives follow the same road. Take yours, and hopefully it will be fruitful. On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 11:14 PM, Malcolm McCallum malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to know what to do in graduate school, how to go about being in graduate school, and how to be a success in graduate school, and successfully find a job after graduate school, Read
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
For what it is worth, I have a family friend who was an English Professor at Dartmouth when I was starting graduate school. He told me I advise everyone who asks me about graduate school [in English] against it. Why? Because the ones who will make are the kinds of people who would go ahead and apply even when told NOT to. Count me among those who wouldn't do anything differently - I love my job. But it is helpful for our students to hear of the challenges too along with the rosy-colored view. -Jeff On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 1:11 PM, Akwasi Asamoah asamoa...@outlook.com wrote: I agree with you one hundred percent Rosemary. Whatever happens during or after a graduate training, the whole venture can never be said to be a total waste of time if one came in seeking to diligently apply themselves to adding on or improving their skills set. After all, the inquisitive human brain never really stops learning until it is completely rendered waste or dead. If you are that kind of person who is excited learning new skills, then grad school could never be turn out as a total waste of time except risking to remain financially volatile or family delayed for longer than would be preferred. If nothing all, you get to meet new people, good or bad that may become quite motivational to the next steps in ones life. Akwasi --- Original Message --- From: Rosenbaum, Stacy srosenb...@lpzoo.org Sent: 29 May 2015 13:47 To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice Hi Emily, I am about one year post PhD. I approached a few professors with a project idea in mind. A couple said This is interesting but my lab isn't the right place to do it, and one (who became my advisor) expressed admiration for the initiative that I took in coming up with my own ideas. In my experience, the people who go to grad school and just wait for their advisor to hand them a project come out worse prepared than those who enthusiastically pursue their own questions/interests. They might learn the technical, writing, etc. skills needed to complete a research project, but they haven't been through the important (and more nuanced) process of coming up with an interesting, testable question, and wrestling with how best to answer it. No advisor that you would actually want to work with would think less of you for approaching them with an idea. On the contrary, it's a pretty good indicator that you're likely to be a successful graduate student. There has been a lot of good advice shared here about talking to everyone and anyone. The more information gathering you do, the more likely you are to find a program and advisor who is a good fit. The entire process of graduate school is not a one-size-fits-all endeavor. One of the most valuable things I gained from the experience was learning how to take responsibility for my own learning, mistakes and all. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat. Even if you don't end up staying in academia, it's worthwhile. Note that despite his declaration that grad school is a waste of time, Dr. Dossey signs his name followed by PhD and field. Somebody who truly didn't think graduate school had any value would not continue to profess the academic qualifications it afforded him. Cheers, Stacy Rosenbaum Behavioral Endocrinology Postdoctoral Fellow Davee Center for Epidemiology and Endocrinology Lincoln Park Zoo Ph: 312-742-2250 srosenb...@lpzoo.org On May 28, 2015, at 5:10 AM, Robert Pettit rdpetti...@gmail.com wrote: Emily, As someone who just wrapped up a graduate degree program and has watched all the joy and sorrow that can bring (to me and my classmates) I would say you need to know where to strike the balance between sticking to your guns and being adaptable. Maybe your dream professor will string you along and the funding won’t work correctly, that is hardly a unique experience. But hopefully if that occurs you will have been talking to a few other pretty good professors, one of whom will have space for you in their lab. Basically don’t put all your eggs in one basket and make sure you are talking to absolutely everyone, you never know what the person next to you at the conference is thinking about. Hope this helps, Rob On May 28, 2015, at 12:17 AM, Malcolm McCallum malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to know what to do in graduate school, how to go about being in graduate school, and how to be a success in graduate school, and successfully find a job after graduate school, Read this: P.B. Medawar, Advice to a Young Scientist http://www.amazon.com/Advice-Scientist-Alfred-Foundation-Series/dp/0465000924 It will be the best $5 (used) you ever spent. or, read a free online copy and spend your $5 to get lunch and read the entire thing while eating http://evolbiol.ru/medawar_advice/medawar.htm Now, I will say that some of the advice after graduation is more
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
To Emily and other potential graduates: Aaron's response is exactly why I feel so compelled to be in academia. I believe that teaching and research is one of the most rewarding careers for anyone's life, and I intend to share my passion for knowledge and wonder about the natural world for the rest of my life. To me, there is nothing more rewarding than being able to learn about nature and inspiring others about the world around us. Sure, academia has some issues, but so does every career and every facet of life. If you love research and/or teaching, do not give up on academia. I have met some wonderful people in graduate school. I am only halfway through my Master's, and I cannot wait for my Ph.D. I am very thankful for those who I have met and who have helped me on the road to where I am today, and many of these people are also on this very listserv. As for seeking potential faculty: bring them your ideas. If they respond with interest, enthusiasm, suggestions, and other questions you could ask about your system, then you've found a great match for a lab. If they don't, then keep looking. All the best, --Joey Joseph Smokey WSU Vancouver Graduate Student Conservation Biology Laboratory (VSCI 217) 14204 NE Salmon Creek Avenue Vancouver, WA 98686-9600 360-/-921-/-6070 northwestbirding[at]gmail[dot]com On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 11:21 AM, Emily Mydlowski emilymydlow...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all, I'm delving into the graduate school search (MS and PhD programs) quite heavily and am seeking advice regarding approaching faculty with a research project. The system I'm interested in working on is that which has many unanswered, interesting questions I would love to pursue. From a faculty perspective, is proposing a project topic (too) bold of a move to a potential advisor? Any advice would be much appreciated. All the best, Emily Mydlowski Northern Michigan University
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
Not all graduate advisors view their students work as their (the advisor’s) personal intellectual property. I did my masters and PhD in a fantastic, inspiring, interdisciplinary, and highly collaborative research group. Our advisor encouraged us to pursue our own ideas, be lead authors of manuscripts on which he was usually last author or not even an author, and lead the writing of small and large grants (which were at first unsuccessful and then, as we learned, successful) despite the fact that we could not legally be PIs on the grants. (He gives credit for student-authored grants by describing in the recommendation letters he writes for us how a student or students were the lead author and worked collaboratively with other students, faculty, etc. to execute the grant activities once awarded.) I credit this style of mentorship/advising as directly responsible for making me a confident, independent researcher, and yielding the 2 tenure-track faculty offers I was fortunate to receive earlier this year. So, in short, not all advisors consider themselves to “ultimately own anything that goes on in their lab’s airspace.” - Jess Vogt Research Associate, The Vincent and Elinor Ostrom Workshop in Political Theory and Policy Analysis, Indiana University Bloomington Starting Sept 2015: Assistant Professor, Department of Environmental Science Studies, College of Science Health, DePaul University jessica.m.v...@gmail.com | +1 920 850 2016 | jessicamarievogt (Skype) | @jessvogt https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jess_Vogt https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jess_Vogt Check out the “Evaluating the Outcomes of Neighborhood and Nonprofit Urban Forestry http://www.indiana.edu/~cipec/research/bufrg_projects_03.php” project webpage of the Bloomington Urban Forestry Research Group (BUFRG) http://www.indiana.edu/~cipec/research/bufrg_about.php On May 28, 2015, at 4:13 PM, Aaron T. Dossey bugoc...@gmail.com wrote: A note of caution on enthusiastic receptions from faculty when you offer to bring a project to their lab: Of course all professors want to invite brilliant people with project ideas already formulated (especially when these people already have the skills to execute them). This is especially the case for grad school because professors know they ultimately own anything that goes on in their lab's airspace whether or not they had the slightest thing to do with it. Be careful that you understand the motivations and the realities behind these enthusiastic responses to the idea of you coming with your own projects. * I, too, welcome people to bring me their ideas and projects so I can screen them and own my favorites. Anyone is welcome to conduct their research in my facility so long as I am senior corresponding author on any publications, owner of IP, named in all the press on the project, PI of any resulting grants and have full control and credit for the project and any resulting rewards - ESPECIALLY if the people come with the skillsets needed for the project and I don't have to spend any time training them. That's essentially what a professor is saying when they say I welcome (or some demand, believe it or not) students coming with their own project ideas, skills to conduct them and especially with their own funding.. I've also seen faculty web sites where they openly solicit even other faculty and visiting scholars to come and do their work and sabbaticals in their labs. One such solicitation is worded very similarly to what I have written above. Who would turn that down? But, then again, who on the other side of that situation (ie: student, postdoc, etc.) would offer all of that to someone? If it's too good to be true On 5/28/2015 5:59 AM, Dave Daversa wrote: Hi Emily: I was in a similar situation as you several years ago. I had been working with a system and foresaw a lot of opportunity to answer some interesting/important ecological questions. I reached out to potential PhD advisors, met with graduate students and thought ALOT about it all. Not one professor with whom I spoke looked down upon my proposing my own project...to the contrary, this was viewed positively. I ended up getting this opportunity and am now finishing my PhD. The experience has been overwhelmingly positive and fulfilling, and has produced postdoc opportunities to continue doing the research that interests me. So go for it. You will get rejections and discouragement. You will get frustrated and confused. The key is to be persistent. More practical advice: research very well different professors and research groups. Send them well-drafted emails. Go and visit them. Apply for the NSF GRFP and other fellowships. Even if you aren't successful, they really help to formulate your thoughts. Dave On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 5:17 AM, Malcolm McCallum malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com wrote:
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
Emily I boldly proposed a project in a topical area related to my potential advisors work, but it was not their primary area of focus. - Thus, it brought something new to their research group when I joined the lab. Not only did my advisor take a risk in accepting me as their student, but this person went out on a limb, wrote a small grant proposal that ended up being funded, and I was able to carry out the entire thesis project as well. Neither myself, nor my former advisor - now colleague - regret this route, and it led me to a second graduate degree in the end. Just because one person has a predetermined project versus another person having a completely exploratory approach does not mean there is one steadfast rule on how to carry out a project. You should be asking yourself instead, what do YOU want out of it? WIll you intend on being a researcher in the future, or are you looking to hone your interest and skills in a very specific aspect of the field. There are ways to tailor your graduate research to facilitate both. All other advice aside, I thoroughly enjoyed the scholarship and intensity of graduate school and fondly recall another mentors wise words - enjoy it now, you'll never have another opportunity in your life to dedicate so much time to one question! Enjoy and best of luck in your career pursuits. Heather A. Wright Technical Customer Support Associate Fluid Imaging Technologies 200 Enterprise Dr. Scarborough, Maine 04074 USA E heather.wri...@fluidimaging.com P +1 207 289 3250 F +1 207 289 3101 On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 2:21 PM, Emily Mydlowski emilymydlow...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all, I'm delving into the graduate school search (MS and PhD programs) quite heavily and am seeking advice regarding approaching faculty with a research project. The system I'm interested in working on is that which has many unanswered, interesting questions I would love to pursue. From a faculty perspective, is proposing a project topic (too) bold of a move to a potential advisor? Any advice would be much appreciated. All the best, Emily Mydlowski Northern Michigan University
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
Ecologgers, this topic seems to come up several times a year. Here's a short article on how to choose a major professor that was published in Fisheries in 1998. It is as relevant now as it was then. Notes from the Blackboard Choosing the right graduate school and getting the job you've always wanted By Gary D. Grossman The recent sustained growth of the U.S. economy has directly affected the field of fisheries as more and more individuals have become interested in both revenue producing and recreational activities involving fish. Concomitant with this growth is an apparent proliferation of education opportunities in our field. Although probably more jobs are available in fisheries today than ever before, a surfeit of well-qualified graduates has made competition for these jobs particularly intense. Consequently, it is not uncommon for highly trained fisheries graduates to have difficulty obtaining employment in the field. These circumstances necessitate that future graduates be highly prepared if they hope to find a job as a fisheries manager or researcher. In fact, most professional positions in fisheries now require at least a master's degree. Given that graduate training is an essential credential for the prospective fisheries biologist, I want to share some pointers I have learned during the 16 years I have been training graduate students, although I suspect that these suggestions will benefit a wider audience than just students alone. Of necessity, I am writing in generalities, and I am well aware that not every strategy works every time or for every person. In addition, although I recognize that Fisheries has an international readership, my comments probably will be most relevant to U.S. residents. I begin with suggestions for how you can choose a major professor or graduate program and end with strategic hints for current graduate students interested in improving their potential employability. First, your choice of graduate program and major professor probably will have a greater impact on future employment than any other education decision you will make. Consequently, before deciding to join a faculty member's research group, inquire about the placement rate of graduates from his or her lab. Like most activities that engage a variety of people, you will find that some faculty have high placement rates, whereas other professors have no idea of the number of former students currently working in the field. The same can be said for graduate programs: Some have very high placement rates of their students (this tends to be most true at the state biologist level), and others have poor records. Despite the importance of these factors, in my years of interviewing prospective graduate students, rarely have I been asked about the placement rates of either former students or our graduate program. My point is that students must recognize that both graduate programs and major professors vary in quality, and if a choice is made without evaluating the relative merits of a given major professor or program, then you may be substantially handicapped. Second, one of the best ways to evaluate professors or graduate programs is by talking to former students. Although discussions with current students can be helpful, of necessity these students may be less candid than former students are. As with most discussions of important personnel matters, it probably is just as important to register what is not said as to note what is said. Finally, try to match your strengths and weaknesses as a student to your major professor's style of supervision. If you function best independently, do not choose a major professor who thinks graduate students are incapable of washing their hands by themselves. Alternatively, if you require occasional prodding to complete tasks, then working with a more-interactive major professor may be best for you. Like all bosses or mentors, major professors come in a wide variety of flavors and sizes, and you need to choose one who will best complement your abilities and needs as a graduate student. Third, ask for a copy of your potential major professor's resume, then examine it carefully. Determine whether or not this professor is actively publishing and, if so, whether she or he is publishing in first-rank journals. Does the person have a good record of grant support? Does he or she regularly attend professional meetings and give invited papers and seminars? Has the person ever won teaching awards? Does she or he have strong contacts at other universities and/or federal and state agencies? Although few professors can meet all of these criteria, a strong major professor will meet most of them. Gary D. Grossman is professor of animal ecology at Warnell School of Forest Resources, University of Georgia, Athens, GA 30602. On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 11:11 PM, Nathalie Arnone nmarn...@gmail.com wrote: Emily, As someone who is still looking for a graduate research position, I have found that
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
Hi Emily: I was in a similar situation as you several years ago. I had been working with a system and foresaw a lot of opportunity to answer some interesting/important ecological questions. I reached out to potential PhD advisors, met with graduate students and thought ALOT about it all. Not one professor with whom I spoke looked down upon my proposing my own project...to the contrary, this was viewed positively. I ended up getting this opportunity and am now finishing my PhD. The experience has been overwhelmingly positive and fulfilling, and has produced postdoc opportunities to continue doing the research that interests me. So go for it. You will get rejections and discouragement. You will get frustrated and confused. The key is to be persistent. More practical advice: research very well different professors and research groups. Send them well-drafted emails. Go and visit them. Apply for the NSF GRFP and other fellowships. Even if you aren't successful, they really help to formulate your thoughts. Dave On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 5:17 AM, Malcolm McCallum malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to know what to do in graduate school, how to go about being in graduate school, and how to be a success in graduate school, and successfully find a job after graduate school, Read this: P.B. Medawar, Advice to a Young Scientist http://www.amazon.com/Advice-Scientist-Alfred-Foundation-Series/dp/0465000924 It will be the best $5 (used) you ever spent. or, read a free online copy and spend your $5 to get lunch and read the entire thing while eating http://evolbiol.ru/medawar_advice/medawar.htm Now, I will say that some of the advice after graduation is more attune to someone in a research school or research-focused department. That fish won't bite in a teaching school, or a non-research school/department. The guy won a Nobel Prize, he probably has a clue. In any case, the bottom line is no two lives follow the same road. Take yours, and hopefully it will be fruitful. On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 11:14 PM, Malcolm McCallum malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to know what to do in graduate school, how to go about being in graduate school, and how to be a success in graduate school, and successfully find a job after graduate school, Read this: P.B. Medawar http://www.amazon.com/Advice-Scientist-Alfred-Foundation-Series/dp/0465000924 It will be the best $5 (used) you ever spent. Now, I will say that some of the advice after graduation is more attune to someone in a research school or research-focused department. That fish won't bite in a teaching school, or a non-research school/department. In any case, the bottom line is no two lives follow the same road. Take yours, and hopefully it will be fruitful. malcolm On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 1:21 PM, Emily Mydlowski emilymydlow...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all, I'm delving into the graduate school search (MS and PhD programs) quite heavily and am seeking advice regarding approaching faculty with a research project. The system I'm interested in working on is that which has many unanswered, interesting questions I would love to pursue. From a faculty perspective, is proposing a project topic (too) bold of a move to a potential advisor? Any advice would be much appreciated. All the best, Emily Mydlowski Northern Michigan University -- Malcolm L. McCallum, PHD, REP Environmental Studies Program Green Mountain College Poultney, Vermont Link to online CV and portfolio : https://www.visualcv.com/malcolm-mc-callum?access=18A9RYkDGxO “Nothing is more priceless and worthy of preservation than the rich array of animal life with which our country has been blessed. It is a many-faceted treasure, of value to scholars, scientists, and nature lovers alike, and it forms a vital part of the heritage we all share as Americans.” -President Richard Nixon upon signing the Endangered Species Act of 1973 into law. Peer pressure is designed to contain anyone with a sense of drive - Allan Nation 1880's: There's lots of good fish in the sea W.S. Gilbert 1990's: Many fish stocks depleted due to overfishing, habitat loss, and pollution. 2000: Marine reserves, ecosystem restoration, and pollution reduction MAY help restore populations. 2022: Soylent Green is People! The Seven Blunders of the World (Mohandas Gandhi) Wealth w/o work Pleasure w/o conscience Knowledge w/o character Commerce w/o morality Science w/o humanity Worship w/o sacrifice Politics w/o principle Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
A note of caution on enthusiastic receptions from faculty when you offer to bring a project to their lab: Of course all professors want to invite brilliant people with project ideas already formulated (especially when these people already have the skills to execute them). This is especially the case for grad school because professors know they ultimately own anything that goes on in their lab's airspace whether or not they had the slightest thing to do with it. Be careful that you understand the motivations and the realities behind these enthusiastic responses to the idea of you coming with your own projects. * I, too, welcome people to bring me their ideas and projects so I can screen them and own my favorites. Anyone is welcome to conduct their research in my facility so long as I am senior corresponding author on any publications, owner of IP, named in all the press on the project, PI of any resulting grants and have full control and credit for the project and any resulting rewards - ESPECIALLY if the people come with the skillsets needed for the project and I don't have to spend any time training them. That's essentially what a professor is saying when they say I welcome (or some demand, believe it or not) students coming with their own project ideas, skills to conduct them and especially with their own funding.. I've also seen faculty web sites where they openly solicit even other faculty and visiting scholars to come and do their work and sabbaticals in their labs. One such solicitation is worded very similarly to what I have written above. Who would turn that down? But, then again, who on the other side of that situation (ie: student, postdoc, etc.) would offer all of that to someone? If it's too good to be true On 5/28/2015 5:59 AM, Dave Daversa wrote: Hi Emily: I was in a similar situation as you several years ago. I had been working with a system and foresaw a lot of opportunity to answer some interesting/important ecological questions. I reached out to potential PhD advisors, met with graduate students and thought ALOT about it all. Not one professor with whom I spoke looked down upon my proposing my own project...to the contrary, this was viewed positively. I ended up getting this opportunity and am now finishing my PhD. The experience has been overwhelmingly positive and fulfilling, and has produced postdoc opportunities to continue doing the research that interests me. So go for it. You will get rejections and discouragement. You will get frustrated and confused. The key is to be persistent. More practical advice: research very well different professors and research groups. Send them well-drafted emails. Go and visit them. Apply for the NSF GRFP and other fellowships. Even if you aren't successful, they really help to formulate your thoughts. Dave On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 5:17 AM, Malcolm McCallum malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to know what to do in graduate school, how to go about being in graduate school, and how to be a success in graduate school, and successfully find a job after graduate school, Read this: P.B. Medawar, Advice to a Young Scientist http://www.amazon.com/Advice-Scientist-Alfred-Foundation-Series/dp/0465000924 It will be the best $5 (used) you ever spent. or, read a free online copy and spend your $5 to get lunch and read the entire thing while eating http://evolbiol.ru/medawar_advice/medawar.htm Now, I will say that some of the advice after graduation is more attune to someone in a research school or research-focused department. That fish won't bite in a teaching school, or a non-research school/department. The guy won a Nobel Prize, he probably has a clue. In any case, the bottom line is no two lives follow the same road. Take yours, and hopefully it will be fruitful. On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 11:14 PM, Malcolm McCallum malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to know what to do in graduate school, how to go about being in graduate school, and how to be a success in graduate school, and successfully find a job after graduate school, Read this: P.B. Medawar http://www.amazon.com/Advice-Scientist-Alfred-Foundation-Series/dp/0465000924 It will be the best $5 (used) you ever spent. Now, I will say that some of the advice after graduation is more attune to someone in a research school or research-focused department. That fish won't bite in a teaching school, or a non-research school/department. In any case, the bottom line is no two lives follow the same road. Take yours, and hopefully it will be fruitful. malcolm On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 1:21 PM, Emily Mydlowski emilymydlow...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all, I'm delving into the graduate school search (MS and PhD programs) quite heavily and am seeking advice regarding approaching faculty with a research project. The system I'm interested in working on is that which has many unanswered, interesting
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
Emily, As someone who just wrapped up a graduate degree program and has watched all the joy and sorrow that can bring (to me and my classmates) I would say you need to know where to strike the balance between sticking to your guns and being adaptable. Maybe your dream professor will string you along and the funding won’t work correctly, that is hardly a unique experience. But hopefully if that occurs you will have been talking to a few other pretty good professors, one of whom will have space for you in their lab. Basically don’t put all your eggs in one basket and make sure you are talking to absolutely everyone, you never know what the person next to you at the conference is thinking about. Hope this helps, Rob On May 28, 2015, at 12:17 AM, Malcolm McCallum malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to know what to do in graduate school, how to go about being in graduate school, and how to be a success in graduate school, and successfully find a job after graduate school, Read this: P.B. Medawar, Advice to a Young Scientist http://www.amazon.com/Advice-Scientist-Alfred-Foundation-Series/dp/0465000924 It will be the best $5 (used) you ever spent. or, read a free online copy and spend your $5 to get lunch and read the entire thing while eating http://evolbiol.ru/medawar_advice/medawar.htm Now, I will say that some of the advice after graduation is more attune to someone in a research school or research-focused department. That fish won't bite in a teaching school, or a non-research school/department. The guy won a Nobel Prize, he probably has a clue. In any case, the bottom line is no two lives follow the same road. Take yours, and hopefully it will be fruitful. On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 11:14 PM, Malcolm McCallum malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to know what to do in graduate school, how to go about being in graduate school, and how to be a success in graduate school, and successfully find a job after graduate school, Read this: P.B. Medawar http://www.amazon.com/Advice-Scientist-Alfred-Foundation-Series/dp/0465000924 It will be the best $5 (used) you ever spent. Now, I will say that some of the advice after graduation is more attune to someone in a research school or research-focused department. That fish won't bite in a teaching school, or a non-research school/department. In any case, the bottom line is no two lives follow the same road. Take yours, and hopefully it will be fruitful. malcolm On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 1:21 PM, Emily Mydlowski emilymydlow...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all, I'm delving into the graduate school search (MS and PhD programs) quite heavily and am seeking advice regarding approaching faculty with a research project. The system I'm interested in working on is that which has many unanswered, interesting questions I would love to pursue. From a faculty perspective, is proposing a project topic (too) bold of a move to a potential advisor? Any advice would be much appreciated. All the best, Emily Mydlowski Northern Michigan University -- Malcolm L. McCallum, PHD, REP Environmental Studies Program Green Mountain College Poultney, Vermont Link to online CV and portfolio : https://www.visualcv.com/malcolm-mc-callum?access=18A9RYkDGxO “Nothing is more priceless and worthy of preservation than the rich array of animal life with which our country has been blessed. It is a many-faceted treasure, of value to scholars, scientists, and nature lovers alike, and it forms a vital part of the heritage we all share as Americans.” -President Richard Nixon upon signing the Endangered Species Act of 1973 into law. Peer pressure is designed to contain anyone with a sense of drive - Allan Nation 1880's: There's lots of good fish in the sea W.S. Gilbert 1990's: Many fish stocks depleted due to overfishing, habitat loss, and pollution. 2000: Marine reserves, ecosystem restoration, and pollution reduction MAY help restore populations. 2022: Soylent Green is People! The Seven Blunders of the World (Mohandas Gandhi) Wealth w/o work Pleasure w/o conscience Knowledge w/o character Commerce w/o morality Science w/o humanity Worship w/o sacrifice Politics w/o principle Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. -- Malcolm L. McCallum, PHD, REP Environmental Studies Program Green Mountain College Poultney, Vermont Link to online CV and portfolio : https://www.visualcv.com/malcolm-mc-callum?access=18A9RYkDGxO “Nothing is more priceless and worthy of
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
I have been in academe' as a phd since 2003. As a doctoral student, i was an instructor for 2 of my 4 years. then, prior to earning my doctorate I was an instructor for 5 years and a research/grants director at an aquarium for 1.5 years. In addition to academe', i have also worked as a Farm worker, baby sitter, Waffle House cook, Dairy Queen slave, baseball umpire in park league, Librarian, McDonalds slave, Subway shift supervisor, College student, Dormitory cafeteria worker, Hospital cafeteria worker, Salesperson, telemarkter, Chef's assistant, undergraduate research assistant, fitness center supervisor, Bob Evans cook, Janitor cook at a Truck Stop, Night manager in residence hall, Desk clerk, Burger King slave, Graduate research assistant, Wildlife consultant, Teacher (K-12), Urban wildlife biologist, gas station attendent. Of all the jobs I have held, i have met some of the most honest, caring and forthright individuals in academe'. i have also met in academe' some of the most dishonest, sinister and in some cases jail-worthy persons, more than one was a lawsuit waiting to happen. The most driven and the most lazy people I have met are also in academe'! For some reason, and my experience may be unique, Academe' is well suited to extreme personalities, myself included. from my discussions with Aaron, there is no doubt that his experience was a horrible one. i have learned in moving around the country that every insitution, department and lab has its own unique cultures. what is great for one student can be a series of potholes or even a cliff-diving session for another. this is why when graduates look for a job, or students are looking for advisor, people tell you that you are interviewing the employer/advisor too. You are not trying to find somewhere you can go, you are trying to find a match between your talents and the institution's or lab's desires and needs. Some people do their best work and are extremely driven when under the whip of a slave driver; whereas, others do the best when they are just left alone. It always saddens me when I hear someone say they got their dream job because I know that what they think is a dream is just that, and once the honeymoon is over and they take off their rosey glasses, there will be plenty of warts on their match. how many people have told you had they done it again, they would never have got married? I have a good friend who tells me all the time, i love my wife, but if she dies first I will never get married again, its too much work! Seriously, graduate school is just like that. A lot of people come out bitter or disenchanted for many reasons. Some reasons are legit and some are imagined, as they can be for those who leave very happy with the experience and return on investment. I was extraordinarily fortunate with my MS and PHD advisors. they fit perfectly what I needed at the time. My experience was EVERYTHING that Aaron's was not. My advisor was fair, he did share the wealth, he did sit down and literally teach me stuff i did not know, as did may other faculty in the program. We had a rule, if he had to write the paper, his name went first. if I wrote it, mine would go first. I wanted my advisor as co-author for the simple reason that I felt it added credibility to my output and he was enormously helpful (as were my committee members). however, selected my advisor and committee members to support my weaknesses, not my strengths so that i would leave more well rounded and so that I did not over-look things i did not know. I did not select committee members based on their stature, but based on how their talents could help me. this was all based on advice given too me from people who had been in PhDs but did not graduate, and worked at the community colleges with me. learn from their mistakes was my goal. what you should get from Aaron's post is this. Make your decision to enter graduate school for the right reasons, choose your advisor very wisely, and pick programs whose culture best matches what you need, not what you like. don't go to graduate school because you think its the next step. go in pursuit of learning. if you want a specific job that requires a specific level of education, you need to ask if you are making your decision wisely. The only good reason to go to graduate school in the sciences is that you want to go to graduate school and gain further education and want credit for it. do you need to go to graduate school to become educated? no. but structured education is a short-cut in many ways. there are a ton of things you can do with an ms or a phd. however, there is a ton of competition and a shrinking pool of opportunities. you also need to have backup plans in case you discover its not for you. i entered my PHD with a backup plan to do a specialists in community college teaching. i figured, if I discovered i could not do it, the Sp-Cc would help me get a good job agaist the piles of MS and phds applying. I never
[ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
Hello all, I'm delving into the graduate school search (MS and PhD programs) quite heavily and am seeking advice regarding approaching faculty with a research project. The system I'm interested in working on is that which has many unanswered, interesting questions I would love to pursue. From a faculty perspective, is proposing a project topic (too) bold of a move to a potential advisor? Any advice would be much appreciated. All the best, Emily Mydlowski Northern Michigan University
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
I agree with Steve - Aaron seems to have had a really bad experience. But that is far from universal. Here is what I would say (note: I loved grad school, and am now an assistant professor): 1) Yes, be proactive! Faculty love to hear from bright students, and to me hearing that a student has independent ideas is very reassuring. My job as a mentor is to help students become independent scientists, but while you can teach skills, you can’t teach someone the “fire in the belly” that is needed to overcome all the obstacles that necessarily come up when pursuing research. 2) Be aware that opportunities to pursue an independent question might be limited. If, for example, you can get an NSF pre-doc award, and can find a mentor with similar research interests, that offers the best prospects. Next best is having a mentor with abundant/flexible grant funding, so that they can help support you without your being closely tied to a specific project - you can apply for other grad student funding once you arrive (this option is the one that worked for me). But you might end up in a situation where your advisor really needs you to work on a specific project they designed, either because they are just getting their research program started, have a very specific grant, or both. 3) Talk to lots of people (on this I completely agree with Aaron) - not just the prospective faculty member, but current and former grad students as well, and other grad students at the institution. This will give you a good idea of the advisor’s mentoring style. Not all mentoring styles work for all people. For instance, someone who is fairly hands-off but responsive to questions might be a perfect mentor for someone who has a good idea of what they want to do and how to do it, but a terrible mentor for someone who needs more guidance and support. 4) While you shouldn’t expect to be on a research assistantship all 5 years (most schools, even those with a lot of money, expect some TA-ing), the firmer the guarantee of support the better. Some schools (my current institution included) do not feel they are in a position to guarantee 5 years of support. In those cases it is best to ask straight out: “Has there ever been a student who has not been able to get the TA or GSR support they need?”. In our case - no, there has never been a problem. Still, when I was applying, the fact that one of my top choices offered guaranteed support and the other didn’t was one of the main deciding factors. Emily Moran UC Merced On May 27, 2015, at 5:50 PM, Stephen L. Young sl...@cornell.edu wrote: Wow! I couldn¹t think of any worse advise. If I had followed these guidelines I would have not been anywhere near where I am today and would have not met some of the most inspiring, motivating, creative, and smart people, who have become some of my best friends and colleagues. Steve On 5/27/15, 6:56 PM, Aaron T. Dossey bugoc...@gmail.com wrote: 1) I wouldn't go to grad school for science these days. Universities and faculty are far too exploitative and the career opportunities requiring a graduate degree are far too few (especially in academia and government). Best to get out there and get a job and experience with those years, or even start your own organization or company. You may be interested in the articles and Notes posted on this page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/National-Postdoc-Union/275402225908673 2) It is the responsibility (one of an ever waning list) of the faculty boss (referred to some as mentor or adviser) to provide projects (well funded ones) for their students, then spend time TEACHING them the projects, techniques and science behind the projects. I would be suspicious of any lab that requires you to come up with your own project, especially if they require you to come with your own funding. 3) If you do have project ideas, best to pursue them on your own time and well separate from the lab and/or involvement of any university faculty member. Basically if you know what you want to do and more or less how to do it, you don't need grad school: you need resources/facilities to pursue it. So, find (sit down for this) COLLABORATORS (not bosses) and some sort of funding or access to lab and equipment you need. You can even try crowdfunding, or like I said, start a company or non-profit. 4) If you DO dive into graduate school for some reason: selecting a decent ethical faculty boss who actually cares about YOUR career (very rare) will be your most critical decision/task. the following are criteria and methods you should use: a) talk to as many people IN the lab and especially FORMER lab members as possible, b) ask the faculty boss how joining their lab will help your career, what you will BE TAUGHT, what projects are available and what FUNDING is driving those projects (and listen closely to the answers), c) ask if you would be allowed to pursue
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
1) I wouldn't go to grad school for science these days. Universities and faculty are far too exploitative and the career opportunities requiring a graduate degree are far too few (especially in academia and government). Best to get out there and get a job and experience with those years, or even start your own organization or company. You may be interested in the articles and Notes posted on this page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/National-Postdoc-Union/275402225908673 2) It is the responsibility (one of an ever waning list) of the faculty boss (referred to some as mentor or adviser) to provide projects (well funded ones) for their students, then spend time TEACHING them the projects, techniques and science behind the projects. I would be suspicious of any lab that requires you to come up with your own project, especially if they require you to come with your own funding. 3) If you do have project ideas, best to pursue them on your own time and well separate from the lab and/or involvement of any university faculty member. Basically if you know what you want to do and more or less how to do it, you don't need grad school: you need resources/facilities to pursue it. So, find (sit down for this) COLLABORATORS (not bosses) and some sort of funding or access to lab and equipment you need. You can even try crowdfunding, or like I said, start a company or non-profit. 4) If you DO dive into graduate school for some reason: selecting a decent ethical faculty boss who actually cares about YOUR career (very rare) will be your most critical decision/task. the following are criteria and methods you should use: a) talk to as many people IN the lab and especially FORMER lab members as possible, b) ask the faculty boss how joining their lab will help your career, what you will BE TAUGHT, what projects are available and what FUNDING is driving those projects (and listen closely to the answers), c) ask if you would be allowed to pursue independent side projects without the faculty boss' involvement (ie: do a side project that's your idea with other students or other labs in your own side collaboration - this is critical to build toward an independent career in science, which is the main reason to go to grad school in science at all). This means publishing at least one paper without that faculty member and possibly even applying for a grant or two (toward the end of your term in the lab) without their name on it. If they say no, immediately find another lab. While many will tell you no one will do this and this is unusual and you shouldn't expect this freedom, that is nothing short of a lie. If you accept that lie, you will find out the hard way when you try to pursue your real career after grad school. d) Be SURE the lab or department will pay you a FULL stipend you can live on AND health insurance for at least 5 years while you complete your degree. e) be sure that no one in the labs you are considering has taken more than 5 years to finish their Ph.D. or 3 years for Masters. f) if you determine that a graduate degree is ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED for your career goals (think about this carefully) then do a Ph.D. rather than a masters. g) I do not recommend young professors without tenure, or working for older or higher ranking professors that also have adminstrative appointments on top of their professor job (things like also being the director of the center for X etc. I consider moonlighting and almost a guarantee that you'll never see them, which means you'll never learn anything or be taught anything by them which is the entire point of grad school). h) Also have a frank discussion about how authorship is handled in the lab AND if you are expected to write grants (don't do it if you won't be listed as a co-PI), and even about how patents will be handled... and get those things IN WRITING! 5) Do not be placated, pacified, bribed, distracted or fooled by anything else. a LITTLE higher salary, a boss that smiles a lot, showering you with compliments, students (especially early grad students or undergrads) who say things like they are SO nice to me, they let me go to conferences (something they should all offer by default, at least 1 conference per year for you to present at).. etc... can distract from the more important issue: how going to grad school will benefit your career and get you quickly into an independent science career within 2-3 years after graduating (max). Those are some good solid things that should take you a long way toward your next set of decisions which will be critical for your career success (or lack of it) for some years to come. What you decide to do at this stage of your career will have long lasting consequences. Let me know if you have further questions! ATD of ATB On 5/27/2015 2:21 PM, Emily Mydlowski wrote: Hello all, I'm delving into the graduate school search (MS and PhD programs) quite heavily and
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
Wow! I couldn¹t think of any worse advise. If I had followed these guidelines I would have not been anywhere near where I am today and would have not met some of the most inspiring, motivating, creative, and smart people, who have become some of my best friends and colleagues. Steve On 5/27/15, 6:56 PM, Aaron T. Dossey bugoc...@gmail.com wrote: 1) I wouldn't go to grad school for science these days. Universities and faculty are far too exploitative and the career opportunities requiring a graduate degree are far too few (especially in academia and government). Best to get out there and get a job and experience with those years, or even start your own organization or company. You may be interested in the articles and Notes posted on this page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/National-Postdoc-Union/275402225908673 2) It is the responsibility (one of an ever waning list) of the faculty boss (referred to some as mentor or adviser) to provide projects (well funded ones) for their students, then spend time TEACHING them the projects, techniques and science behind the projects. I would be suspicious of any lab that requires you to come up with your own project, especially if they require you to come with your own funding. 3) If you do have project ideas, best to pursue them on your own time and well separate from the lab and/or involvement of any university faculty member. Basically if you know what you want to do and more or less how to do it, you don't need grad school: you need resources/facilities to pursue it. So, find (sit down for this) COLLABORATORS (not bosses) and some sort of funding or access to lab and equipment you need. You can even try crowdfunding, or like I said, start a company or non-profit. 4) If you DO dive into graduate school for some reason: selecting a decent ethical faculty boss who actually cares about YOUR career (very rare) will be your most critical decision/task. the following are criteria and methods you should use: a) talk to as many people IN the lab and especially FORMER lab members as possible, b) ask the faculty boss how joining their lab will help your career, what you will BE TAUGHT, what projects are available and what FUNDING is driving those projects (and listen closely to the answers), c) ask if you would be allowed to pursue independent side projects without the faculty boss' involvement (ie: do a side project that's your idea with other students or other labs in your own side collaboration - this is critical to build toward an independent career in science, which is the main reason to go to grad school in science at all). This means publishing at least one paper without that faculty member and possibly even applying for a grant or two (toward the end of your term in the lab) without their name on it. If they say no, immediately find another lab. While many will tell you no one will do this and this is unusual and you shouldn't expect this freedom, that is nothing short of a lie. If you accept that lie, you will find out the hard way when you try to pursue your real career after grad school. d) Be SURE the lab or department will pay you a FULL stipend you can live on AND health insurance for at least 5 years while you complete your degree. e) be sure that no one in the labs you are considering has taken more than 5 years to finish their Ph.D. or 3 years for Masters. f) if you determine that a graduate degree is ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED for your career goals (think about this carefully) then do a Ph.D. rather than a masters. g) I do not recommend young professors without tenure, or working for older or higher ranking professors that also have adminstrative appointments on top of their professor job (things like also being the director of the center for X etc. I consider moonlighting and almost a guarantee that you'll never see them, which means you'll never learn anything or be taught anything by them which is the entire point of grad school). h) Also have a frank discussion about how authorship is handled in the lab AND if you are expected to write grants (don't do it if you won't be listed as a co-PI), and even about how patents will be handled... and get those things IN WRITING! 5) Do not be placated, pacified, bribed, distracted or fooled by anything else. a LITTLE higher salary, a boss that smiles a lot, showering you with compliments, students (especially early grad students or undergrads) who say things like they are SO nice to me, they let me go to conferences (something they should all offer by default, at least 1 conference per year for you to present at).. etc... can distract from the more important issue: how going to grad school will benefit your career and get you quickly into an independent science career within 2-3 years after graduating (max). Those are some good solid things that should take you a long way toward your next set of decisions which will be critical for your career success (or lack of it) for some years to come.
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
If you want to know what to do in graduate school, how to go about being in graduate school, and how to be a success in graduate school, and successfully find a job after graduate school, Read this: P.B. Medawar, Advice to a Young Scientist http://www.amazon.com/Advice-Scientist-Alfred-Foundation-Series/dp/0465000924 It will be the best $5 (used) you ever spent. or, read a free online copy and spend your $5 to get lunch and read the entire thing while eating http://evolbiol.ru/medawar_advice/medawar.htm Now, I will say that some of the advice after graduation is more attune to someone in a research school or research-focused department. That fish won't bite in a teaching school, or a non-research school/department. The guy won a Nobel Prize, he probably has a clue. In any case, the bottom line is no two lives follow the same road. Take yours, and hopefully it will be fruitful. On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 11:14 PM, Malcolm McCallum malcolm.mccallum.ta...@gmail.com wrote: If you want to know what to do in graduate school, how to go about being in graduate school, and how to be a success in graduate school, and successfully find a job after graduate school, Read this: P.B. Medawar http://www.amazon.com/Advice-Scientist-Alfred-Foundation-Series/dp/0465000924 It will be the best $5 (used) you ever spent. Now, I will say that some of the advice after graduation is more attune to someone in a research school or research-focused department. That fish won't bite in a teaching school, or a non-research school/department. In any case, the bottom line is no two lives follow the same road. Take yours, and hopefully it will be fruitful. malcolm On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 1:21 PM, Emily Mydlowski emilymydlow...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all, I'm delving into the graduate school search (MS and PhD programs) quite heavily and am seeking advice regarding approaching faculty with a research project. The system I'm interested in working on is that which has many unanswered, interesting questions I would love to pursue. From a faculty perspective, is proposing a project topic (too) bold of a move to a potential advisor? Any advice would be much appreciated. All the best, Emily Mydlowski Northern Michigan University -- Malcolm L. McCallum, PHD, REP Environmental Studies Program Green Mountain College Poultney, Vermont Link to online CV and portfolio : https://www.visualcv.com/malcolm-mc-callum?access=18A9RYkDGxO “Nothing is more priceless and worthy of preservation than the rich array of animal life with which our country has been blessed. It is a many-faceted treasure, of value to scholars, scientists, and nature lovers alike, and it forms a vital part of the heritage we all share as Americans.” -President Richard Nixon upon signing the Endangered Species Act of 1973 into law. Peer pressure is designed to contain anyone with a sense of drive - Allan Nation 1880's: There's lots of good fish in the sea W.S. Gilbert 1990's: Many fish stocks depleted due to overfishing, habitat loss, and pollution. 2000: Marine reserves, ecosystem restoration, and pollution reduction MAY help restore populations. 2022: Soylent Green is People! The Seven Blunders of the World (Mohandas Gandhi) Wealth w/o work Pleasure w/o conscience Knowledge w/o character Commerce w/o morality Science w/o humanity Worship w/o sacrifice Politics w/o principle Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. -- Malcolm L. McCallum, PHD, REP Environmental Studies Program Green Mountain College Poultney, Vermont Link to online CV and portfolio : https://www.visualcv.com/malcolm-mc-callum?access=18A9RYkDGxO “Nothing is more priceless and worthy of preservation than the rich array of animal life with which our country has been blessed. It is a many-faceted treasure, of value to scholars, scientists, and nature lovers alike, and it forms a vital part of the heritage we all share as Americans.” -President Richard Nixon upon signing the Endangered Species Act of 1973 into law. Peer pressure is designed to contain anyone with a sense of drive - Allan Nation 1880's: There's lots of good fish in the sea W.S. Gilbert 1990's: Many fish stocks depleted due to overfishing, habitat loss, and pollution. 2000: Marine reserves, ecosystem restoration, and pollution reduction MAY help restore populations. 2022: Soylent Green is People! The Seven Blunders of the World (Mohandas Gandhi) Wealth w/o work Pleasure w/o conscience Knowledge w/o character Commerce w/o morality Science w/o humanity Worship w/o
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
Wow, I too am amazed by the tone of this message - obviously it is coming from some deep-seated indignation based on someone’s previous bad experience. A much as I strongly disagree with the main message, I do agree that any student needs to research any and all potential advisors. Different faculty all have different ways in which they work with students and the potential graduate student needs to make sure that it is a good match (obviously it was not for the previous person). Looking at the recent publication record of a potential advisor, talking to current and past graduate students, asking about funding options, researching the courses offered by the department, etc. are all really good ideas. In many programs (including my own), graduate students are fully supported financially during their entire time in the program so they don’t need to hold any additional jobs that would interfere with their graduate studies. So you want to ask about things like stipends, tuition costs (hopefully zero), health care, support for travel to professional meetings and the like. As a last note, I sincerely doubt that many of us think of ourselves as a “boss” (as the message below suggests); rather, we are teachers (yes, “mentor” or “advisor” is what I consider myself personally) of our students with the ultimate goal of creating collaborators. I would also argue that rather than being “very rare” for a faculty member to care about a student’s career, it is ABSOLUTELY central to what we do. In every committee meeting I have attended (both for my own grad students as well as others in the department), someone always asks the student what their ultimate goal is and then we prepare a plan to help them get there. The whole point of a graduate program is to graduate independent scientists who will be successful in whatever career they choose to pursue - whether it be in academia, education, state or federal government, etc. Like Steve mentioned, being active in graduate programs - originally as a student and now as a mentor - has yielded some of my most valued relationships over the years. If it was not for two wonderful faculty mentors at UC Irvine (Steve Weller and Ann Sakai) who agreed to take on an undergrad in need of research credit and then encouraged me to continue on to graduate school, I would never be where I am today. I am sure that many other faculty had similar experiences and we now strive to “pay it forward”. Consequently I hope that students like Emily continue to follow their dreams and keep up the search to find the right match with a mentor and graduate program. Sincerely, Theresa Theresa M. Culley, Ph.D. Associate Professor Provost Fellow Department of Biological Sciences University of Cincinnati 614 Reiveschl Hall Cincinnati, OH 45221-0006 Office: 703 Reiveschl Hall Tel: 513-556-9705 Web: www.homepages.uc.edu/~culleyt/CulleyLab.htmlhttp://www.homepages.uc.edu/~culleyt/CulleyLab.html Email: theresa.cul...@uc.edumailto:theresa.cul...@uc.edu On May 27, 2015, at 6:56 PM, Aaron T. Dossey bugoc...@gmail.commailto:bugoc...@gmail.com wrote: 1) I wouldn't go to grad school for science these days. Universities and faculty are far too exploitative and the career opportunities requiring a graduate degree are far too few (especially in academia and government). Best to get out there and get a job and experience with those years, or even start your own organization or company. You may be interested in the articles and Notes posted on this page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/National-Postdoc-Union/275402225908673 2) It is the responsibility (one of an ever waning list) of the faculty boss (referred to some as mentor or adviser) to provide projects (well funded ones) for their students, then spend time TEACHING them the projects, techniques and science behind the projects. I would be suspicious of any lab that requires you to come up with your own project, especially if they require you to come with your own funding. 3) If you do have project ideas, best to pursue them on your own time and well separate from the lab and/or involvement of any university faculty member. Basically if you know what you want to do and more or less how to do it, you don't need grad school: you need resources/facilities to pursue it. So, find (sit down for this) COLLABORATORS (not bosses) and some sort of funding or access to lab and equipment you need. You can even try crowdfunding, or like I said, start a company or non-profit. 4) If you DO dive into graduate school for some reason: selecting a decent ethical faculty boss who actually cares about YOUR career (very rare) will be your most critical decision/task. the following are criteria and methods you should use: a) talk to as many people IN the lab and especially FORMER lab members as possible, b) ask the faculty boss how joining their lab will help your career, what you will BE TAUGHT, what projects
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
It's really unfortunate that the first, longest and most detailed answer to this student's questions was so very negative and discouraging. That is not a typical experience and many of us are happy we followed our interests. where should i click on the like buttom for this last answer? Eve On May 27, 2015 5:55 PM, Stephen L. Young sl...@cornell.edu wrote: Wow! I couldn¹t think of any worse advise. If I had followed these guidelines I would have not been anywhere near where I am today and would have not met some of the most inspiring, motivating, creative, and smart people, who have become some of my best friends and colleagues. Steve On 5/27/15, 6:56 PM, Aaron T. Dossey bugoc...@gmail.com wrote: 1) I wouldn't go to grad school for science these days. Universities and faculty are far too exploitative and the career opportunities requiring a graduate degree are far too few (especially in academia and government). Best to get out there and get a job and experience with those years, or even start your own organization or company. You may be interested in the articles and Notes posted on this page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/National-Postdoc-Union/275402225908673 2) It is the responsibility (one of an ever waning list) of the faculty boss (referred to some as mentor or adviser) to provide projects (well funded ones) for their students, then spend time TEACHING them the projects, techniques and science behind the projects. I would be suspicious of any lab that requires you to come up with your own project, especially if they require you to come with your own funding. 3) If you do have project ideas, best to pursue them on your own time and well separate from the lab and/or involvement of any university faculty member. Basically if you know what you want to do and more or less how to do it, you don't need grad school: you need resources/facilities to pursue it. So, find (sit down for this) COLLABORATORS (not bosses) and some sort of funding or access to lab and equipment you need. You can even try crowdfunding, or like I said, start a company or non-profit. 4) If you DO dive into graduate school for some reason: selecting a decent ethical faculty boss who actually cares about YOUR career (very rare) will be your most critical decision/task. the following are criteria and methods you should use: a) talk to as many people IN the lab and especially FORMER lab members as possible, b) ask the faculty boss how joining their lab will help your career, what you will BE TAUGHT, what projects are available and what FUNDING is driving those projects (and listen closely to the answers), c) ask if you would be allowed to pursue independent side projects without the faculty boss' involvement (ie: do a side project that's your idea with other students or other labs in your own side collaboration - this is critical to build toward an independent career in science, which is the main reason to go to grad school in science at all). This means publishing at least one paper without that faculty member and possibly even applying for a grant or two (toward the end of your term in the lab) without their name on it. If they say no, immediately find another lab. While many will tell you no one will do this and this is unusual and you shouldn't expect this freedom, that is nothing short of a lie. If you accept that lie, you will find out the hard way when you try to pursue your real career after grad school. d) Be SURE the lab or department will pay you a FULL stipend you can live on AND health insurance for at least 5 years while you complete your degree. e) be sure that no one in the labs you are considering has taken more than 5 years to finish their Ph.D. or 3 years for Masters. f) if you determine that a graduate degree is ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED for your career goals (think about this carefully) then do a Ph.D. rather than a masters. g) I do not recommend young professors without tenure, or working for older or higher ranking professors that also have adminstrative appointments on top of their professor job (things like also being the director of the center for X etc. I consider moonlighting and almost a guarantee that you'll never see them, which means you'll never learn anything or be taught anything by them which is the entire point of grad school). h) Also have a frank discussion about how authorship is handled in the lab AND if you are expected to write grants (don't do it if you won't be listed as a co-PI), and even about how patents will be handled... and get those things IN WRITING! 5) Do not be placated, pacified, bribed, distracted or fooled by anything else. a LITTLE higher salary, a boss that smiles a lot, showering you with compliments, students (especially early grad students or undergrads) who say things like they are SO nice to me, they let me go to conferences (something they should all offer by
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
Emily, As someone who is still looking for a graduate research position, I have found that keeping eyes open on jobs and graduate opportunities is important. I really wanted to keep my momentum after graduating and get an MS or PhD. I was communicating with a professor that told me that I'd be perfect for their lab and the research project etc etc (I thought I had it, despite not directly hearing it or getting it in writing). I applied. I waited quite a while, reaching out to the potential advisor every couple of weeks or so to maintain interest as well as a mutual respect and patience (although I recall being stressed at times). This took place from Feb of this year to just last week, receiving a measly piece of paper saying I wasn't accepted. Could I have gotten a courtesy email? Maybe. Were there most likely circumstances that justified it? Absolutely. Maybe the funding didn't go through. Maybe someone better came along (my guess). Who knows. More importantly, who cares! Not even 48 hours later I got a call for an interview for a job I applied for a week prior. I interviewed the next day. Keep your options open! I'm going to get my graduate degree I just don't know in what order. I thought I did all the right things, reaching out and being myself. I hope this helps you. There's wonderful advice coming your way. Find published works and research in the area you want. Email PIs from those and ask them about what they're doing now. It's great that you have your own questions. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but a mentor in your field of interest should be lucky to have someone driven and independent (isn't that the point?) The first email was fascinating to me in that it was blunt and satirical (and potentially offensive to the bosses of academia). Listen, there's a lot of jaded individuals out there who didn't get chosen for a position (ding ding ding). There's a chance that you're not going to get a couple opportunities! I hope that you stay on the path that YOU choose and don't become negative or have any regrets. Go for it. Kindest, Nathalie Arnone On May 27, 2015, at 14:21, Emily Mydlowski emilymydlow...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all, I'm delving into the graduate school search (MS and PhD programs) quite heavily and am seeking advice regarding approaching faculty with a research project. The system I'm interested in working on is that which has many unanswered, interesting questions I would love to pursue. From a faculty perspective, is proposing a project topic (too) bold of a move to a potential advisor? Any advice would be much appreciated. All the best, Emily Mydlowski Northern Michigan University
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
where should i click on the like buttom for this last answer? Eve On May 27, 2015 5:55 PM, Stephen L. Young sl...@cornell.edu wrote: Wow! I couldn¹t think of any worse advise. If I had followed these guidelines I would have not been anywhere near where I am today and would have not met some of the most inspiring, motivating, creative, and smart people, who have become some of my best friends and colleagues. Steve On 5/27/15, 6:56 PM, Aaron T. Dossey bugoc...@gmail.com wrote: 1) I wouldn't go to grad school for science these days. Universities and faculty are far too exploitative and the career opportunities requiring a graduate degree are far too few (especially in academia and government). Best to get out there and get a job and experience with those years, or even start your own organization or company. You may be interested in the articles and Notes posted on this page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/National-Postdoc-Union/275402225908673 2) It is the responsibility (one of an ever waning list) of the faculty boss (referred to some as mentor or adviser) to provide projects (well funded ones) for their students, then spend time TEACHING them the projects, techniques and science behind the projects. I would be suspicious of any lab that requires you to come up with your own project, especially if they require you to come with your own funding. 3) If you do have project ideas, best to pursue them on your own time and well separate from the lab and/or involvement of any university faculty member. Basically if you know what you want to do and more or less how to do it, you don't need grad school: you need resources/facilities to pursue it. So, find (sit down for this) COLLABORATORS (not bosses) and some sort of funding or access to lab and equipment you need. You can even try crowdfunding, or like I said, start a company or non-profit. 4) If you DO dive into graduate school for some reason: selecting a decent ethical faculty boss who actually cares about YOUR career (very rare) will be your most critical decision/task. the following are criteria and methods you should use: a) talk to as many people IN the lab and especially FORMER lab members as possible, b) ask the faculty boss how joining their lab will help your career, what you will BE TAUGHT, what projects are available and what FUNDING is driving those projects (and listen closely to the answers), c) ask if you would be allowed to pursue independent side projects without the faculty boss' involvement (ie: do a side project that's your idea with other students or other labs in your own side collaboration - this is critical to build toward an independent career in science, which is the main reason to go to grad school in science at all). This means publishing at least one paper without that faculty member and possibly even applying for a grant or two (toward the end of your term in the lab) without their name on it. If they say no, immediately find another lab. While many will tell you no one will do this and this is unusual and you shouldn't expect this freedom, that is nothing short of a lie. If you accept that lie, you will find out the hard way when you try to pursue your real career after grad school. d) Be SURE the lab or department will pay you a FULL stipend you can live on AND health insurance for at least 5 years while you complete your degree. e) be sure that no one in the labs you are considering has taken more than 5 years to finish their Ph.D. or 3 years for Masters. f) if you determine that a graduate degree is ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED for your career goals (think about this carefully) then do a Ph.D. rather than a masters. g) I do not recommend young professors without tenure, or working for older or higher ranking professors that also have adminstrative appointments on top of their professor job (things like also being the director of the center for X etc. I consider moonlighting and almost a guarantee that you'll never see them, which means you'll never learn anything or be taught anything by them which is the entire point of grad school). h) Also have a frank discussion about how authorship is handled in the lab AND if you are expected to write grants (don't do it if you won't be listed as a co-PI), and even about how patents will be handled... and get those things IN WRITING! 5) Do not be placated, pacified, bribed, distracted or fooled by anything else. a LITTLE higher salary, a boss that smiles a lot, showering you with compliments, students (especially early grad students or undergrads) who say things like they are SO nice to me, they let me go to conferences (something they should all offer by default, at least 1 conference per year for you to present at).. etc... can distract from the more important issue: how going to grad school will benefit your career and get you quickly into an independent science career within 2-3 years
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
Sadly bitter and dripping with expectations of entitlement. Not a good way to enter ANY career. -- Tom Horton, Mycology 241 Illick Hall, Dept. of Environmental and Forest Biology SUNY-ESF, Syracuse, NY 13210 315-470-6794 On 5/27/15, 6:56 PM, Aaron T. Dossey bugoc...@gmail.com wrote: 1) I wouldn't go to grad school for science these days. Universities and faculty are far too exploitative and the career opportunities requiring a graduate degree are far too few (especially in academia and government). Best to get out there and get a job and experience with those years, or even start your own organization or company. You may be interested in the articles and Notes posted on this page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/National-Postdoc-Union/275402225908673 2) It is the responsibility (one of an ever waning list) of the faculty boss (referred to some as mentor or adviser) to provide projects (well funded ones) for their students, then spend time TEACHING them the projects, techniques and science behind the projects. I would be suspicious of any lab that requires you to come up with your own project, especially if they require you to come with your own funding. 3) If you do have project ideas, best to pursue them on your own time and well separate from the lab and/or involvement of any university faculty member. Basically if you know what you want to do and more or less how to do it, you don't need grad school: you need resources/facilities to pursue it. So, find (sit down for this) COLLABORATORS (not bosses) and some sort of funding or access to lab and equipment you need. You can even try crowdfunding, or like I said, start a company or non-profit. 4) If you DO dive into graduate school for some reason: selecting a decent ethical faculty boss who actually cares about YOUR career (very rare) will be your most critical decision/task. the following are criteria and methods you should use: a) talk to as many people IN the lab and especially FORMER lab members as possible, b) ask the faculty boss how joining their lab will help your career, what you will BE TAUGHT, what projects are available and what FUNDING is driving those projects (and listen closely to the answers), c) ask if you would be allowed to pursue independent side projects without the faculty boss' involvement (ie: do a side project that's your idea with other students or other labs in your own side collaboration - this is critical to build toward an independent career in science, which is the main reason to go to grad school in science at all). This means publishing at least one paper without that faculty member and possibly even applying for a grant or two (toward the end of your term in the lab) without their name on it. If they say no, immediately find another lab. While many will tell you no one will do this and this is unusual and you shouldn't expect this freedom, that is nothing short of a lie. If you accept that lie, you will find out the hard way when you try to pursue your real career after grad school. d) Be SURE the lab or department will pay you a FULL stipend you can live on AND health insurance for at least 5 years while you complete your degree. e) be sure that no one in the labs you are considering has taken more than 5 years to finish their Ph.D. or 3 years for Masters. f) if you determine that a graduate degree is ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED for your career goals (think about this carefully) then do a Ph.D. rather than a masters. g) I do not recommend young professors without tenure, or working for older or higher ranking professors that also have adminstrative appointments on top of their professor job (things like also being the director of the center for X etc. I consider moonlighting and almost a guarantee that you'll never see them, which means you'll never learn anything or be taught anything by them which is the entire point of grad school). h) Also have a frank discussion about how authorship is handled in the lab AND if you are expected to write grants (don't do it if you won't be listed as a co-PI), and even about how patents will be handled... and get those things IN WRITING! 5) Do not be placated, pacified, bribed, distracted or fooled by anything else. a LITTLE higher salary, a boss that smiles a lot, showering you with compliments, students (especially early grad students or undergrads) who say things like they are SO nice to me, they let me go to conferences (something they should all offer by default, at least 1 conference per year for you to present at).. etc... can distract from the more important issue: how going to grad school will benefit your career and get you quickly into an independent science career within 2-3 years after graduating (max). Those are some good solid things that should take you a long way toward your next set of decisions which will be critical for your career success (or lack of it) for some years to come. What you decide to do at this stage of your career will have
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Graduate School Advice
Hi Emily, I kind of did the thing you propose and also tried Aaron's road. When I started with my PhD I already had a research proposal ready. I knew what I wanted to study, I just needed supervisors that were happy to support me and I needed funding. I talked with several professors from three different universities. The professor from the last university was really enthusiastic and promised me to get some funding for the project through the faculty. I don't think it is a bold move at all to propose a research topic. I think it shows initiative and that you are capable of working independently as well. Before I started the PhD I actually tried the road that Aaron described. I founded a non-profit and started looking for funding to do the exact same research project. The problem is that not many organizations are likely to fund an unexperienced scientist or non-profit without track record. That means that you will be dependent on crowdfunding or private donations. If your project is cuddly or eye-catching crowdfunding may be a very good option. But if you want to study the symbiosis of Brussel sprouts and mycorrhiza it will be difficult to get money through crowdfunding, I mean nobody like Brussel sprouts (those who say they do are liars). For me crowdfunding helped me to raise exactly 0.40 USD; that is using crowdfunding platforms like Indiegogo. During the course of my PhD I started to get more private donations through the non-profit which enabled me to buy a company car and do more fieldwork. My advise to you is to just try a lot of different options and go with what works out best. Somethings may work, others won't, just give it all a try. In the Netherlands we say *If you don't shoot, you will alway miss*. Best regards, -- Robbie Weterings *Project Manager Cat Drop Thailand* * Tel: +66(0)890176087* 65/13 Mooban Chakangrao, Naimuang Muang Kamphaeng Phet 62000, Thailand เลขที่ 65/13 ม.ชากังราว ถนน ราชดําเนิน2 ในเมือง อําเภอ/ เขต เมืองกําเเพงเพชร จังหวัด กําเเพงเพชร 62000 http://www.catdropfoundation.org http://www.catdropfoundation.org/facebook/Facebook.html *www.catdropfoundation.org* http://www.catdropfoundation.org/ *www.facebook.com/catdropfoundation* http://www.facebook.com/catdropfoundation *Boorn 45, 9204 AZ, Drachten, The Netherlands* On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 1:21 AM, Emily Mydlowski emilymydlow...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all, I'm delving into the graduate school search (MS and PhD programs) quite heavily and am seeking advice regarding approaching faculty with a research project. The system I'm interested in working on is that which has many unanswered, interesting questions I would love to pursue. From a faculty perspective, is proposing a project topic (too) bold of a move to a potential advisor? Any advice would be much appreciated. All the best, Emily Mydlowski Northern Michigan University
