Re: [ECOLOG-L] no problem RE: [ECOLOG-L] Perseid meteor shower and more....
I am happy to report that Catalan also lives on at CASSE. For a taste of this remarkable language, see La Posició davant el Creixement Econòmic: http://steadystate.org/act/sign-the-position/read-the-position-statement/la-posicio/ Brian Czech, Visiting Professor Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University National Capital Region, Northern Virginia Center 7054 Haycock Road, Room 411 Falls Church, Virginia 22043 From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [ecolo...@listserv.umd.edu] On Behalf Of Sarah Frias-Torres [sfrias_tor...@hotmail.com] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:00 AM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [ECOLOG-L] no problem RE: [ECOLOG-L] Perseid meteor shower and more MikeThere is no need for apology, as my post was trying to correct a pervasive error and misreporting that keeps showing up on CNN and many other news broadcasts. I also provided a bit of history on this subject for all those at the list server who might be interested in the recent development of bull-fighting prohibition in Catalunya. The Nazi reference to Franco's regime was two-fold. First, it reflected how bull-fighting was forced upon the Catalan culture. We are talking about a time, specially the first years after the end of the civil war, in which if you spoke Catalan (our language) in the streets of Barcelona, you were shot to death on the spot by police or the military. Imagine if speaking your native language resulted in an immediate death sentence. Second, the nazi reference to the regime was correct. The basic connection between Franco and Hitler is out there in the history books for those who want to read it. What readers of this forum might not be aware of is that due to the recent "ley de memoria historica" (law of historic memory) we are now uncovering the killing fields Franco and his nazi friends had over many parts of Spain, as well as extermination camps that were called "re-training centers". Obviously in this kind of oppression, anything labelled "national" had to be complied with (including bull-fighting).This was also a time when the democratically elected president of Catalunya, Lluis Companys, was executed after a mock jury decided he was guilty (of being a president elect!).There is much history that must be rewritten, but as they say, history is written by the ones that win the wars, while the victims of injustice rarely have a voice. Why all this information has any relevance at all in the Ecolog forum? Animal cruelty has many shades of gray. Sometimes it is an imposition, by accident of history, "tradition", or simple inertia. In the Catalan case, the citizen movement has ended the injustice. Unfortunately, we have to wait until January 2012 for the law to be enacted... such is the nature of the law. There are still many other examples of animal cruelty to deal with, and it will take a great deal of effort to eradicate them. There are people in Spain at large, and in Latin America, who enjoy bull-fighting very much. So unfortunately, bull-fighting will continue for many years to come. But at least, not in Catalunya. By the way, the fact that some people enjoy watching an animal being tortured, in panic and agony for the best part of an hour, and slowly killed through sequential stabbing (which is what the "banderillas" and other implements accomplish)... experiencing joy and pleasure from such a sight reveals the sadistic personality of the viewer. In fact, enjoying animal abuse and cruelty (whether by inflicting it or watching it unfold) is a basic characteristic of a sadistic personality disorder. Sarah Frias-Torres, Ph.D. http://independent.academia.edu/SarahFriasTorres > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 19:28:38 -0400 > From: mno...@rainforestandreef.org > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Perseid meteor shower and more > To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU > > Sarah. > > My apologies to your culture. I was just reporting what CNN had to say. I am > not an expert on bull-fighting, but have found it outrageous over the years. > > I have watched these "bull-fights" in Spain. > > Thank you for the history lesson. I knew that my post my not be accurate. > > What is your point? Have read your post several times and am still not clear. > If this is something else we can blame on the Nazis', let me know. > > Should I have made the mistake and blaming it on Spain, I will be the first > person to same I'm sorry. > > I guess my point was to say that it is horrific treatement of Animals. End of > story and my apologies to your Culture. > > Thank you. > > Mike Nolan > > Mike, > as a native of Barcelona myself, regarding your comment about bull-fighting I > would like to make a small correction. > > > The "sport" (if you
[ECOLOG-L] no problem RE: [ECOLOG-L] Perseid meteor shower and more....
MikeThere is no need for apology, as my post was trying to correct a pervasive error and misreporting that keeps showing up on CNN and many other news broadcasts. I also provided a bit of history on this subject for all those at the list server who might be interested in the recent development of bull-fighting prohibition in Catalunya. The Nazi reference to Franco's regime was two-fold. First, it reflected how bull-fighting was forced upon the Catalan culture. We are talking about a time, specially the first years after the end of the civil war, in which if you spoke Catalan (our language) in the streets of Barcelona, you were shot to death on the spot by police or the military. Imagine if speaking your native language resulted in an immediate death sentence. Second, the nazi reference to the regime was correct. The basic connection between Franco and Hitler is out there in the history books for those who want to read it. What readers of this forum might not be aware of is that due to the recent "ley de memoria historica" (law of historic memory) we are now uncovering the killing fields Franco and his nazi friends had over many parts of Spain, as well as extermination camps that were called "re-training centers". Obviously in this kind of oppression, anything labelled "national" had to be complied with (including bull-fighting).This was also a time when the democratically elected president of Catalunya, Lluis Companys, was executed after a mock jury decided he was guilty (of being a president elect!).There is much history that must be rewritten, but as they say, history is written by the ones that win the wars, while the victims of injustice rarely have a voice. Why all this information has any relevance at all in the Ecolog forum? Animal cruelty has many shades of gray. Sometimes it is an imposition, by accident of history, "tradition", or simple inertia. In the Catalan case, the citizen movement has ended the injustice. Unfortunately, we have to wait until January 2012 for the law to be enacted... such is the nature of the law. There are still many other examples of animal cruelty to deal with, and it will take a great deal of effort to eradicate them. There are people in Spain at large, and in Latin America, who enjoy bull-fighting very much. So unfortunately, bull-fighting will continue for many years to come. But at least, not in Catalunya. By the way, the fact that some people enjoy watching an animal being tortured, in panic and agony for the best part of an hour, and slowly killed through sequential stabbing (which is what the "banderillas" and other implements accomplish)... experiencing joy and pleasure from such a sight reveals the sadistic personality of the viewer. In fact, enjoying animal abuse and cruelty (whether by inflicting it or watching it unfold) is a basic characteristic of a sadistic personality disorder. Sarah Frias-Torres, Ph.D. http://independent.academia.edu/SarahFriasTorres > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 19:28:38 -0400 > From: mno...@rainforestandreef.org > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Perseid meteor shower and more > To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU > > Sarah. > > My apologies to your culture. I was just reporting what CNN had to say. I am > not an expert on bull-fighting, but have found it outrageous over the years. > > I have watched these "bull-fights" in Spain. > > Thank you for the history lesson. I knew that my post my not be accurate. > > What is your point? Have read your post several times and am still not clear. > If this is something else we can blame on the Nazis', let me know. > > Should I have made the mistake and blaming it on Spain, I will be the first > person to same I'm sorry. > > I guess my point was to say that it is horrific treatement of Animals. End of > story and my apologies to your Culture. > > Thank you. > > Mike Nolan > > Mike, > as a native of Barcelona myself, regarding your comment about bull-fighting I > would like to make a small correction. > > > The "sport" (if you can call it that way) was NOT started in Catalonia (the > correct name of the "region" is Catalunya). The torturing and sacrifice of > animals in public was officially started by the ancient Romans in their > Circus (and probably there are older precedents to that). Basically, is the > same show the gladiators put up with, only that it combined killing people > with torturing and killing animals. That tradition was probably imported all > throughout the Roman Empire. Barcino (now Barcelona) and Tarraco (now > Tarragona), ancient roman cities, probably received enough Roman circus > tradition to go along. > > > The Bullfighting as we know it today is mostly a "tradition" from
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Perseid meteor shower and more....
Sarah. My apologies to your culture. I was just reporting what CNN had to say. I am not an expert on bull-fighting, but have found it outrageous over the years. I have watched these "bull-fights" in Spain. Thank you for the history lesson. I knew that my post my not be accurate. What is your point? Have read your post several times and am still not clear. If this is something else we can blame on the Nazis', let me know. Should I have made the mistake and blaming it on Spain, I will be the first person to same I'm sorry. I guess my point was to say that it is horrific treatement of Animals. End of story and my apologies to your Culture. Thank you. Mike Nolan Mike, as a native of Barcelona myself, regarding your comment about bull-fighting I would like to make a small correction. The "sport" (if you can call it that way) was NOT started in Catalonia (the correct name of the "region" is Catalunya). The torturing and sacrifice of animals in public was officially started by the ancient Romans in their Circus (and probably there are older precedents to that). Basically, is the same show the gladiators put up with, only that it combined killing people with torturing and killing animals. That tradition was probably imported all throughout the Roman Empire. Barcino (now Barcelona) and Tarraco (now Tarragona), ancient roman cities, probably received enough Roman circus tradition to go along. The Bullfighting as we know it today is mostly a "tradition" from Spanish culture, that is the culture from most of the territory of what is known as Spain today, which between the 16th and 20th centuries was many times exported to Central and South America. It was never part of the culture of Catalunya, an independent nation established about a thousand years before the Castilla (now the center of Spain) was a kingdom of any sort. Catalunya has been oppressed over the centuries through many invasions, and in recent times, when after the Civil War of 1936-1939, the nazi regime of Generalisimo Franco was imposed upon the whole Iberian Peninsula. At that time, all of Spain, including Catalunya, embraced (by choice or by force) the "National Art" (el arte nacional). Notice that during all these years, nobody in the country at large, pointed at how torturing an animal could be considered an art. Thanks to a very young democracy (it started in 1977), the recent ban on bullfighting in Catalunya, voted by the Catalan government in Barcelona, and started by a citizen initiative, is a victory for all of us who think torturing animals cannot be a standard of national pride. This is a first step in a long fight against animal cruelty of this type. It is also a victory to eliminate a "national tradition" that Catalans do not consider of their own. Sarah Frias-Torres, Ph.D. http://independent.academia.edu/SarahFriasTorres -- If we are on another line or away from the phone, please leave your number, best time to return your call and/or your e-mail address. After hours and weekend phone appointments are available upon request. Sincerely, J. Michael Nolan, Director Rainforest and Reef 501 (c)(3) non-profit ** "Outstanding-Affordable Field Courses in Rainforest & Marine Ecology" "Spanish/Cultural Immersion Programs: Spain, Mexico, Central and South America" Rainforest and Reef 501 (c)(3) non-profit 161 Main St. Coopersville, MI 49404 Local/International Phone: 1.616.604.0546 Toll Free U.S. and Canada: 1.877.255.3721 Fax: 1.616.604.0546 Google Talk/MS IM/Skype: travelwithrandr AOL IM: buddythemacaw E-mail: i...@rainforestandreef.org and travelwithra...@gmail.com Note: Please send inquiries to both e-mail addresses Web: http://rainforestandreef.org **
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Perseid meteor shower and more....
Mike,as a native of Barcelona myself, regarding your comment about bull-fighting I would like to make a small correction. The "sport" (if you can call it that way) was NOT started in Catalonia (the correct name of the "region" is Catalunya). The torturing and sacrifice of animals in public was officially started by the ancient Romans in their Circus (and probably there are older precedents to that). Basically, is the same show the gladiators put up with, only that it combined killing people with torturing and killing animals. That tradition was probably imported all throughout the Roman Empire. Barcino (now Barcelona) and Tarraco (now Tarragona), ancient roman cities, probably received enough Roman circus tradition to go along. The Bullfighting as we know it today is mostly a "tradition" from Spanish culture, that is the culture from most of the territory of what is known as Spain today, which between the 16th and 20th centuries was many times exported to Central and South America. It was never part of the culture of Catalunya, an independent nation established about a thousand years before the Castilla (now the center of Spain) was a kingdom of any sort. Catalunya has been oppressed over the centuries through many invasions, and in recent times, when after the Civil War of 1936-1939, the nazi regime of Generalisimo Franco was imposed upon the whole Iberian Peninsula. At that time, all of Spain, including Catalunya, embraced (by choice or by force) the "National Art" (el arte nacional). Notice that during all these years, nobody in the country at large, pointed at how torturing an animal could be considered an art. Thanks to a very young democracy (it started in 1977), the recent ban on bullfighting in Catalunya, voted by the Catalan government in Barcelona, and started by a citizen initiative, is a victory for all of us who think torturing animals cannot be a standard of national pride. This is a first step in a long fight against animal cruelty of this type. It is also a victory to eliminate a "national tradition" that Catalans do not consider of their own. Sarah Frias-Torres, Ph.D. http://independent.academia.edu/SarahFriasTorres > Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 15:32:40 -0400 > From: mno...@rainforestandreef.org > Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Perseid meteor shower and more > To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU > > Thanks for this post. Saw it of course on the ES list as well. Some very fond > memories of laying in the back of my truck with my 2 Sons, who are still > youngone in college, one in high school and watching this incredible > event. If you can get away from city lights, it can be spectacular. > > For all "animal rights" people out there, and I noticed this in Mike Comet's > e-mail signature about bulls.don't think he was talking about > bull-fighting. It has just been banned in the part of Spain, where at least I > heard the whole "sport" got started. See: > http://blog.oup.com/2010/08/gypsy-bull-fighting/ > > Interesting. > > Also, for those many people that contacted me about our "mailing list". Thank > you. I am trying to get back to as quickly as possible. > > Thank you. > > Mike Nolan > > Don't try and pin this on a Comet!!! I clean MY debris! > Mike > > Michael H. Comet > Living Environment Teacher > South Lewis High School > P.O. Box 40 - 4264 East Road > Turin, NY 13473 > Telephone: 315-348-2520 Ext. 3156 > Voice mail: 315-348-2539, Voice Mailbox 6029 > http://www.southlewis.org > > "Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good, is like > expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian." > > >>> Ed Bein 08/11/10 9:46 AM >>> > Each year, the Earth passes through the debris of a comet called the > Swift-Tuttle. These debris burn up in our atmosphere to form what we see as > meteors or shooting stars. The Perseid meteor shower is at its peak during > mid-August, with the peak on the night of August 12 and morning of August 13 > in 2010. During a peak, at least 50-60 meteors can be observed during each > hour. Considered the best and brightest meteor show of the year by many, > it's a great opportunity to go outside and check out nature's own dramatic > show. > > > > Go there at or after midnight. The pre-dawn hours are usually the best for > viewing because the Earth's side facing the sun picks up more meteors.[2] > > > > Look towards the northeastern sky > > > -- > > If we are on another line or away from the phone, please leave your number, > best time to return your call and/or your e-mail address. > > After hours and weekend phone appointments are a
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Perseid meteor shower and more....
Thanks for this post. Saw it of course on the ES list as well. Some very fond memories of laying in the back of my truck with my 2 Sons, who are still youngone in college, one in high school and watching this incredible event. If you can get away from city lights, it can be spectacular. For all "animal rights" people out there, and I noticed this in Mike Comet's e-mail signature about bulls.don't think he was talking about bull-fighting. It has just been banned in the part of Spain, where at least I heard the whole "sport" got started. See: http://blog.oup.com/2010/08/gypsy-bull-fighting/ Interesting. Also, for those many people that contacted me about our "mailing list". Thank you. I am trying to get back to as quickly as possible. Thank you. Mike Nolan Don't try and pin this on a Comet!!! I clean MY debris! Mike Michael H. Comet Living Environment Teacher South Lewis High School P.O. Box 40 - 4264 East Road Turin, NY 13473 Telephone: 315-348-2520 Ext. 3156 Voice mail: 315-348-2539, Voice Mailbox 6029 http://www.southlewis.org "Expecting the world to treat you fairly because you are good, is like expecting the bull not to charge because you are a vegetarian." >>> Ed Bein 08/11/10 9:46 AM >>> Each year, the Earth passes through the debris of a comet called the Swift-Tuttle. These debris burn up in our atmosphere to form what we see as meteors or shooting stars. The Perseid meteor shower is at its peak during mid-August, with the peak on the night of August 12 and morning of August 13 in 2010. During a peak, at least 50-60 meteors can be observed during each hour. Considered the best and brightest meteor show of the year by many, it's a great opportunity to go outside and check out nature's own dramatic show. Go there at or after midnight. The pre-dawn hours are usually the best for viewing because the Earth's side facing the sun picks up more meteors.[2] Look towards the northeastern sky -- If we are on another line or away from the phone, please leave your number, best time to return your call and/or your e-mail address. After hours and weekend phone appointments are available upon request. Sincerely, J. Michael Nolan, Director Rainforest and Reef 501 (c)(3) non-profit ** "Outstanding-Affordable Field Courses in Rainforest & Marine Ecology" "Spanish/Cultural Immersion Programs: Spain, Mexico, Central and South America" Rainforest and Reef 501 (c)(3) non-profit 161 Main St. Coopersville, MI 49404 Local/International Phone: 1.616.604.0546 Toll Free U.S. and Canada: 1.877.255.3721 Fax: 1.616.604.0546 Google Talk/MS IM/Skype: travelwithrandr AOL IM: buddythemacaw E-mail: i...@rainforestandreef.org and travelwithra...@gmail.com Note: Please send inquiries to both e-mail addresses Web: http://rainforestandreef.org **
