[Edu-sig] arthur siegel has passed away
We wanted to inform anyone familiar with Arthur Siegel's work with PyGeo that Arthur passed away on Tuesday. Anyone interested in more information can email his sister at [EMAIL PROTECTED] The funeral will be at 12:00 at the Riverside Memorial Chapel, 21 West Broad Street in Mount Vernon New York. ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
[Edu-sig] Brother, Can you Paradigm?
The subject line is Eric Raymond's title of an entry at http://armedndangerous.blogspot.com/2003_07_27_armedndangerous_archive.html I don't read a lot of Raymond, and don't consider myself a libertarian of his stripe, but a somwhat out-of-context quote I enjoyed from this article: There are some books so bad, but so plausible and influential, that periodically trashing them in public is almost an obligation. The really classic stinkeroos of this kind, like Karl Marx's Das Kapital, exert a weird kind of seduction on otherwise intelligent people long after their factual basis has been completely exploded. I don't think it possible to separate the special role that history held for the intellectual in Marxism, and the tendencies of those who considered themselves intellectuals to give his thinking undue weight. I think the same is true with Kayianism and the geek. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos)
Ivan Krstić wrote: If you're willing to discuss picking on children, I think your best bet is to throw on a pair of jeans and a T-shirt and show up at PyCon, any offense to your fashion sense notwithstanding. I can't speak for the other two speakers, but I won't be talking about eLearning at all. Won't even mention it, really. Well there is another issue, in truth. Not totally irrelevant to the OLPC as it happens. The dates of PyCon2007 happen to fall over my son's birthday. He is off in the bush - teaching. But I am hoping there will be some effort to make contact with him on that day. Not sure I want to be out-of-town. You bring a kid up to learn how to take care of No. 1, and look what he does to you ;) Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos)
kirby urner wrote: A little. But these are both esoteric back office enclave kinds of jobs, appreciated by an inner circle, but not getting out in front with a rhetoric. Do you think no rhetoric is required, or only that your role is not to provide it, only to kibbitz from the sidelines when others strut their stuff (e.g. Kay). I am trying to make the argument that strutting one's stuff in the way of Kay is counterproductive - even assuming one's goals are Kay's. My starting premise is that I am typical. In a somewhat atypical way, but typical nonetheless. In matters of education my ear is attuned to those having inclination towards kinds of ideas. It suggests to me a mature mind, with a scientific bent, in some touch with the state-of-the-art. Much confidence suggests pathology. To my ear, as audience. In the theater we call it giving notes. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos)
kirby urner wrote: We oughta be able to work with the guy, is my attitude. I wouldn't begin to know how to participate in a discussion that he is engineering. The very fundamental ground rules of discourse within 412 miles of him are not acceptable to me. I have questions. He has answers. But they are not and will never be the answers to *my* questions. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos)
kirby urner wrote: I advise the Minister of Education to keep the alliance going with our neighbor computer languages, as our common enemy is this cork in the bottle which keeps kids the prisoner of the personal calculator fanatics. They should have the choice to break free, and into the wilds of gnu math (an invented meme in geek culture). And I am advising otherwise, with much the same goal. Knowing that if the alternative presented to me, for my students, was the personal calculator, or constructivist voodoo of the Kayian flavor, they'd be stuck with the calculator. We need to disassociate, and be the Third Way. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] OSCON 2005 talk (retrospective)
Jeff Rush wrote: It's a shame you are not attending PyCon this year. I would like to have met you and discussed education matters in a more communicative media than email. Me thinks your wardrobe is a bit like the Emperor's New Clothes, not thin from time. ;-) If it were that thin you wouldn't be missing much. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos)
kirby urner wrote: Not high budget or anything. I want a typical viewer to think wait a minute, I could do this too, and probably better than he does. How different would they look if that was not the effect you were going for ;) Kidding aside, I think you are touching on something important in this point. But in the end I think the written word will remain indefinitely the most level playing field, and - largely because of this fact - the most potent medium for the communication of ideas. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos)
Arthur wrote: Kidding aside, I think you are touching on something important in this point. But in the end I think the written word will remain indefinitely the most level playing field, and - largely because of this fact - the most potent medium for the communication of ideas. The more direct and on-topic point is that, yes, it is impossible to correlate technical depth with anything related to education outside of narrow limits of that technical depth - and even then it is touchy. This seems obvious. Except now. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos)
Arthur wrote: And within this, I think picking on children as a target is particularly problematic - precisely because expertise in the subject of the education of children is so hard to evaluate. Anyone can claim it. Even computer programmers. Piaget is a theorist. Let's assume an excellent theorist. Let's assume the best there is. The leap that the computer is somehow central to an implementation of his ideas is an unnecessary, arbitrary, and somehow generally accepted leap. Very strange to me. It would seem to be more reasonable to start with a working assumption that in working with children we should be working with materials and objects that have immediacy and obviousness that computers do not and cannot have. To think that it is just a matter of rigging the interface correctly and it is all win/win form there - the word ridiculous happens to work for me. As with all matters with children, I claim no particular expertise. And am willing to be wrong. That is different from being willing to shut up until I am given a good reason to conclude that I am wrong. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Python for math teachers (Google videos)
kirby urner wrote: Plus you want to start exposure young enough to see if you have some child prodigies. You can't have child prodigies if you keep the computer locked up until they have beards. I am not proposing keeping it locked up. I am making the modest proposal that we keep it in perspective. Do I have a problem with Squeak?? Not in the least. It would be inconsistent with everything I am trying to say to have a problem with a piece of software, especially one that is technically interesting by just about everyone's assessment. I have a problem with overreaching, Millennialist ideas and claims, Grand Fallooning and etc and etc. It happens, for whatever reason, that happens a lot surrounding Squeak. But it is not Squeak. I like it just as little when it happens surrounding Python, BTW. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] OSCON 2005 talk (retrospective)
kirby urner wrote: ICYC (in case you're curious)... I went back and reviewed my entire OSCON 2005 talk in just 4 minutes in this just uploaded and blogged Google Video: You attending PyCon2007? Regrettably I am not. It came down to an matter of wardrobe. Always feeling it important to be appropriate, I realized that I no longer have the proper attire in which to attend an eLearning keynote. Things wear thin after some time. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
[Edu-sig] Coxeter Theory: The Cognitive Aspects
Speaking of Coxeter, teaching, learning, cognition, computers, GUIs the thoughts of a mathematics educator: Coxeter Theory: The Cognitive Aspects http://www.maths.manchester.ac.uk/~avb/pdf/coxeter.pdf Evenhanded enough. Section 10 Parsing, continued: do brackets matter? discusses some of what the author learned from the progress when the software he had used to teach grew a GUI interface. PyGeo has no option to create constructions via a GUI. If it did, it would be used, and any possible benefit that might be attained by using the software would be sabotaged. The reason I get crazy and make 17 consecutive posts in a row is that in fact I *am* an amateur in every sense of the word. The things that I am obsessed with not having swept under a rug are not things that are difficult or esoteric. They are there. They have mass. You can kick them. Ignoring them takes convolution. Too what end are we twisting things into knots? Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation
Bert Freudenberg wrote: Actually, Squeak folks do fine. They're not flocking to Python, even though Paul (unfortunatly for us) left a few years ago. You may be confusing Alan Kay's reaching out to the Python community with what the Squeak community does. Two very different pairs of shoes. Heartening to hear. Repeating this over and over does not actually make it true. People in OLPC have been empirically studying working with kids and computers longer than anyone else. I have looked. But I have not found. I think what there is what comes after an acceptance - a radical acceptance - of ideas of technological determinism. Fine-tuning the inevitable. I like geometry, and now architectures can be built from a few axioms. Here it happens to matter, a lot, whether those axioms are true, and how true. I haven't seen that work, Sorry. I should get along great with Paul. I happen to be a big unschooling guy myself. I encouraged it for my own son, after school. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation
kirby urner wrote: Now I sense a contingent waiting in the wings, deus ex machina, willing to at least stage a comeback of computer languages in math teaching. If and when the modest ideas of modest people can get heard. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation
kirby urner wrote: So in my telling, the revolution hadn't really started yet in those early Wordstar and WordPerfect days. That was an office culture revolution, a change of equipment, but had little to do with real computing or computer science *except* where so-called power users were concerned, with their spreadsheet macros, with their xBase. Absolutely right, and importantly right. At least that is the story I *lived*, as well. I was a business spreadsheet guy until by some miracle I was able to install on my computer - for free - a powerful, see-through, big-boy operating system that was the standard fare of academics and scientists for decades. *THAT HAD NO INTERFACE* to speak of. That was not kidstuff, as was essentially everything else then available. And with it I could plug into what the academics and scientists had been doing, because that is a culture more about the sharing of ideas and the competition of ideas than about the selling of ideas. While Kay is a product, very much, of the corporate world - Apple, Disney, HP. It shows in everything he is about. You have hit the nail, pretty much on the head, on why I consider Kay a diversion. But it also means that to a good extent among the heroes of my story is the traditional academic world. I think of things like the Geometry Center at the University of Minnesota. The power of the operating system that had descended from the heavens and that I could install on my 386 was the power to rejoin that world, to not be frozen out of a world of thinking for thinking's sake. Which is why I balk at a Python conference that emphasizes matters of education and clumsily freezes out the academics. My *insistence* on certain things is that we are in fact talking about things *lived*, not imagined. The history with Kay at or near its epicenter is very much *not* the history I lived. I do not believe, in fact, it exists in the way the history is now being written. One doesn't need to be particularly perceptive to know what one lived. But the elders must tell the story, and must tell it right. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation
kirby urner wrote: You distrust the crassly commercial. I think academics might be missing the boat. It's not a question, in my mind, as to who is or is not missing the boat. It is matter of process. The academic world has a well-vetted tradition in which to fit inquiry and the exploration of ideas of the kinds that are important here. It has evolved as it has evolved. If it could have evolved to have been less imperfect I see no systemic reason it would not have done so. It is less imperfect than alternatives I see. To assault this tradition in the name of geek culture is immature. To, as a teacher, attract the immature by being as they is irresponsible. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment
Ivan Krstić wrote: I don't think I can actually figure out what you're saying here. I am happy to have a discussion, but that requires understanding what's being discussed; please consider rephrasing your concerns in very simple, non-philosophical terms. If it is any consolation, you are in good company. Guido has expressed from time to time frustration at trying to figure out what I am saying. And I have been accused of being baroque in my choice of language. Which I find strange because I think of myself as a schoolyard brawler. I separate the OLPC into 2 aspects: 1) a piece of hardware that is inexpensive, innovative in design, and with an Open Source infrastructure. 2) an embedded philosophy about technology and education. Let's just say I am very anxious to get my hands on both - just in very different senses of the phrase ;) Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Tracing the Dynabook: A Dissertation
John Maxwell wrote: I've been reading this edu-sig list since its inception sympathies. , and in the past 6 months or so I've noticed an enormous surge of interest in (and controversy around) Squeak and Alan Kay's Dynabook concept. what's the controversy? powerful and dangerous ideas. everyone agrees. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
[Edu-sig] An OLPC comment
Hate being the grunch. I hope the OLPC accomplishes everything it sets out to and more. What I suspect is that - having learnt something about complexity and dynamic systems from computers - that the most profound effects of the initiative will be unintended ones. Let's hope they are mostly good. Particularly given this, I don't understand the embedded need, as part of the process, to the compromise on some basic ideas - normally called science. We - on edu-sig - were trying to form some consensus on the need for empiricism around these issues. And in his own way, by my reading of events, my erstwhile friend Kirby was trying to suggest something along these lines during his participation at the Shuttleworth summit. Or - maybe more what he was suggesting - is that until there is empricial evidence that leads us in a certain and clear direction, best encourage the diversity of ideas. OLPC seem to represent very much a counter vision. Seems to me the OLPC has counter ideas on both empiricism *and* the diversity of ideas. Here is Nicholas Negroponte's reaction to the idea of bringing empricism to the party. http://www.olpcnews.com/implementation/plan/implementation_miracle.html So there will not be consensus, apparently, Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] An OLPC comment (Why Educational Technology Has Failed Schools)
Yes, Paul: School sucks. Any kid worth his salt knows that And yes Paul: The possibilities for meaningful testing are indeed limited. Are we influencing someone to be more or less creative, more or less independent, etc. Implicit in the design of any test is our values -i.e. for what are we testing. So that empiricism indeed is just another opportunity to ask tough questions. But at least its a structure in which to do so. But it leaves me nothing really much to argue with you about. I think we both understand the rules, just have somewhat different ideas about where to look for the exceptions to the rules. What I hear when I look over the Squeak shoulders is that of course we are not claiming that any of this is a substitute for an involved, caring, creative teacher working in a caring, creative environment. But given such a teacher in such an environment do you really suppose that Squeak, or the OLPC, or Python, or PyGeo, or PataPata is actually of much importance? I don't. My interest in computers and education is almost 180 degrees away. I am not convinced that they have any fundamental importance in the deliver of instruction. They are quite a worthy *subject* of instruction, however. I naively came to edu-sig thinking that was what everyone thought, and what we were to be about here. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
[Edu-sig] VCBuild files
Bruce, I have committed a new directory to vpython-core2 called VCBuild It contains concise instructions (VCBuild.txt), a cvisual solutions (cvisual.sln) file and project (.vcproj) files for booth_python, boost_thread, and sigc. It should allow you to do a build on Visual Sutdio 2005 C++ (either the free Express version or full-blown) - totally avoiding bjam. The common wisdom is that Python25 extensions for Windows should be built with VC++2003, but I haven't seen a problem yet, and I am hoping that since we are getting at Python via Boost we might be insulated from these kinds of issues. but am not sure, and could just as well add files for a VC2003 build for those who have access to it (there is no free version available now, ASAIK) I am hoping this will allow us to stay on the same page on Windows. And I am also trying to take the advice from an edu-sig participant (I think it was Scott David Daniels) that a sane build mechanism is important for attracting developers to a project, and I myself found the mingw/bjam combo a struggle. It works OK when you stick strictly to the script of INSTALL.txt, but for those of us who need to be a little closer to the whys and wherefores and what ifs, it was a struggle to get one's arms around coming into cold - particularly bjam. I have done some clean-up on the source, nothing too substantive, but I wanted to get to a VC++ build that would not be giving tons of warning messages. I have not committed those changes, pending your OK, so expect tons of warning messages. I am copying this to the edu-sig list, hoping someone out there might bite at it, and jump-in some. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Reminder: Early Bird Registration for PyCon Ending Soon
Jeff Rush wrote: The conference is also running four keynote talks by leaders in the programming field, with a special focus on education this year: The Power of Dangerous Ideas: Python and One Laptop per Child by Ivan Krstic, senior member of the One Laptop per Child project Premise: eLearning does not Belong in Public Schools by Adele Goldberg, of SmallTalk fame Python 3000 by Guido van Rossum, creator of Python The Importance of Programming Literacy by Robert M. r0ml Lefkowitz, a frequent speaker at O'Reilly conferences Was going to stay quiet, but what the hell. 3 of 4 keynotes touching directly on the subject of education. But none of them by educators. Which I think is telling. I like to think of Python and its community as potentially part of the solution, and not part of the problem. but it is sometimes quite difficult. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Reminder: Early Bird Registration for PyCon Ending Soon
Arthur wrote: Jeff Rush wrote: The conference is also running four keynote talks by leaders in the programming field, with a special focus on education this year: Jeff's wording is good and careful here. But it doesn't attempt to address the question of why anyone - even other programmers - would be particularly interested in hearing *keynotes* from people talking outside of their field of expertise. At least one of them does seem to address the question of *programming* education from the point of view of a professional programmer. OK with that. That's one out of 3. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
[Edu-sig] A Womens Perspective
Paragraph One, of Lisa Randall's recent book Warped Passages http://www.warpedpassages.com/ When I was a young girl, I loved the play and intellectual games in math problems or in books like Alice in Wonderland. But although reading was one of my favorite activities, books about science usually seemed more remote and less inviting to me - I never felt sufficiently engaged or challenged, the tone often seemed condescending to readers, overly worshipful of scientists, or boring. It seems to me that enough issues that have been touched upon here are embedded in this simple paragraph, that it is worth citing here. Women, math, women and , reading, condescension as anti-motivational, worshipful as anti-motivational. Certainly Lisa Randall is not Joe Average. It is also true that in my discourse with educators - about programming and such - - my views are often quickly discounted on the grounds that I am not representative - presumably smarter than - their students. And I always picture myself sitting in back of their class looking distracted, disinterested, and not very smart at all. Which, in fact, is generally where I could be found, and the pose in which I could be found. But I was there, in that pose, perhaps precisely because I was correctly understanding the atmosphere. In fact, being smart. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Learning (some more) programming
Paul D. Fernhout wrote: John- An excellent post; and I'll have to agree with most of it, including your conclusions at the end, especially in relation to choosing educational strategies based on empirical research. Consensus on this point is an excellent starting point. But even given it, I am not in position to lay down my arms. This is exactly where the issue of my obsession with the influence of commercial interests in these discussions kicks in. The research that gets done tends to be, in reality, the research that gets funded. And the answers returned are largely determined by the questions asked. I had posted an excerpt and link to a public message by Microsoft which was frank and direct about its efforts to direct its (quite considerable) influence at US national educational policy, which cites as its empirical basis research that I consider to be quite specious and that Microsoft had, in part, funded. When those dynamics are at work, and when they are work publicly, and when no general outrage can be generated in connection with those dynamics occurring in plain view - one becomes deeply concerned. As I am. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Learning (some more) programming
Paul D. Fernhout wrote: I'll agree with your larger point in practice in our society, on roles for both intrinsic motivation of liking some thing versus the extrinsic desire to learn something just to get some task done. There is another path humanity used to be on, but we are not back on it much yet, though I feel we will be more and more (and free and open source software leads the way), see: The Abolition of Work http://www.whywork.org/rethinking/whywork/abolition.html The Original Affluent Society http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,901135,00.html Still, I might suggest you hated writing as a kid because you were forced to do it by compulsory schooling before you were ready or willing? Even if that was not the case for you, it certainly is the case for lots and lots of people. We seem to be allowing ourselves radical, and against the grain thinking in all this. So.. Understand then that there are those of us, who - with all good intentions - question the fundamental enterprise being discussed - the simple idea that technology has a pivotal, productive role to play in the endeavor of educating children (for some generally understood definition of children). Despite the Sworn Testimony of any number of Certified Geniuses, we are going to hold out for Evidence. Which is different from saying that for those children who are going to grow up in a technology laden society, it is better that they know how to push the right buttons than that they not. But very little intervention is required there, and certainly it should not be confused with education in a more meaningful sense. I, for one, happen to think that an enormous number of possibilities begin to open up later in the developmental game. That is, at the stage when the fact that an offered experience is a being mediated through a digital Mystery begins to become something we can expect to have accepted without a very wrong message attached. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Learning (some more) programming
Arthur wrote: That is, at the stage when the fact that an offered experience is a being mediated through a digital Mystery begins to become something we can expect to have accepted without a very wrong message attached. And even at that stage it is (almost?) exclusively the demystification of the digital Mystery that is of educational import. It used to be called science. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Learning (some more) programming
Arthur wrote: It used to be called science. The scientific spirit requiring us to lay the specimen on the table, brutality dissect it, exposing it as metal and as silicon and instruction sets with an intelligence that is a horribly crippled parody of our own. Not in fact to enter into an imaginary symbiotic, soulful relationship with the heap. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Learning (some more) programming
Scott David Daniels wrote: Arthur wrote: Have dug in quite a bit to VPython's code, which has become an intensive C++ course for me. And have accomplished a good deal in keeping the project moving forward, healthy and on-track. I happen to be proud of that. I recommend you read Stroustrup's book, The Design and Evolution of C++. It will give you a nice skeleton around which to wrap your understanding of C++, and help you understand how C++ came to be the way it is. I would love to, and should, and probably won't - at least until some time considerably later in the game. The effort to do so does not, in my mind, speak directly enough to my motivations. The relationship of my learning style, and the fact that I was originally drawn toward the study of literature again strikes me. But the work I am studying is the VPython code, not the C++ language itself. The fact that the code is dense and difficult, and that I can only understand it in fits and starts and that it requires numerous iterative passes at it in order to begin to get it, is a motivational plus, rather than a motivational negative. It becomes a game worth playing. It feels efficient. Guess I have a decent tolerance for being at sea, as long as I know that only time, focus, and effort is between me and some land. The analysis/understanding of dense working code is to me the starting point. Understanding something of the language anatomy is a byproduct of that effort, not the focus of it. I feel strongly that this top-down approach to learning in relationship to programming, rather than an atomic bottom-up approach approach, is not generally given its do. Which is part of why I bring the subject and my experience up - here. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Learning (some more) programming
Arthur wrote: The analysis/understanding of dense working code is to me the starting point. Understanding something of the language anatomy is a byproduct of that effort, not the focus of it. I feel strongly that this top-down approach to learning in relationship to programming, rather than an atomic bottom-up approach approach, is not generally given its do. To state the somewhat obvious - I have been at this general game now for some time, so that I am not suggesting that something like the VPython code is a reasonable place to start for someone who has not been. I am suggesting that readability has been a focus of the Python language from its inception, and that fact makes this general approach more realistic at an early stage of the game than it would otherwise be. And that teaching methodologies that do not take advantage of this fact - by staying too atomic - are perhaps not taking as much advantage of what Python has to offer at the introductory level then it might. In learning C++ I am spending 98% of my time reading, 2% writing. Much the same was true of learning Python at an early stage, at a stage where reading C++ at all was well out of my reach. I am now simply a more sophisticated reader. But reading remains at the core of my learning experience. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
[Edu-sig] Learning (some more) programming
Have dug in quite a bit to VPython's code, which has become an intensive C++ course for me. And have accomplished a good deal in keeping the project moving forward, healthy and on-track. I happen to be proud of that. 90% of the battle for this kind of intensive learning process always seems to be motivation. And I don't quite know how learning something like C++ might be approached in other than an intensive manner. What I find is that even on the issue of motivation, the dynamics are nonlinear. Just the right mix of curiosity, practical benefit, desire to contribute, desire for status and recognition, and, of course, spite ;) is what I happen to need to get focused at this level. One theme that seems to run through discussions here is related to this issue. Is it the educators' mission to find just the right motivational buttons and push them just right ??? Or rather focus on responding appropriately to those who come to the learning process with some critical mass level of motivation??? It seems to be one of the fault lines, in some of the discussions here. If one rejects possibility of the first approach - despite possibilities of computer/human symbiosis, the issue becomes easier. So for me, its easier. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Python Smalltalk (was Re: OLPC related: pyGTK)
Paul D. Fernhout wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Squeaks pretense issues, and its licensing issues, are - by the way - not unrelated when you look at it. Sometimes I think something like that myself. :-) But, to elaborate on your point a little more (in a toned down way :-): It is hard to know how to respond. I don't know how to tone down on this particular issue any more than I have. If you want to call it an obsession, OK. You can search the archives of edu-sig and find me obsessively attacking Kay and not Squeak itself, but Kay's positioning of Squeak, from the earliest days here, and suffering attacks here for doing so as: a) being presumptuous. b) being irrelevant. Let's leave it that I fully accept the standard history, the importance of Smalltalk, the role of Kay during the period of history which you recount. And the fact that he is un-shy about recounting it, and having others recount it on his behalf, provides him with certain powers, but with certain responsibilities. I am not a fan of how he has handled that power and those responsibilities. But that if I have not yet successfully communicated why I firmly believe his later efforts, his later approach and most particularly his later rap is more destructive than productive, I guess that I have to resign myself to the fact that I never will. I assure you, I am making perfect sense to myself - however. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Python Smalltalk (was Re: OLPC related: pyGTK)
Laura Creighton wrote: I wouldn't call the work done at PARC as 'failed research projects'. My point was only that Paul is saying that Smalltalk was developed specifically for children. It is never fully clear to me in conversing with Paul whether he means for children to *write* or for children to reap the benefits of what can be accomplished by adults that can. Or what particular words we are defining (or redefining) in what way. I see so much of the story, the conflicts, the misunderstanding, the hype, the ambition, the ego in the story of how words are being used, misused and in particular the use of ambiguity in words, with intention and to ends.. And I also happen to attach the fact that I am a word guy to the fact that I am a Python guy. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] OLPC related: pyGTK for cross-platform (Mac especially)?
Arthur wrote: Like offering alternatives. Like this new-on-the-scene effort http://pyglet.org/ Pyglet is a cross-platform multimedia library written in pure Python. Checked out the svn version. Exciting to see for - among other reasons - it seems to implement what had been kicked around here regarding VPython, i.e. a pure Python - via ctypes - fully native crossplatform windowing, OpenGL capable infrastructure. Humbling - the effort and background needed to pull something like this off. It is early, but with what has clearly been invested in it to date, one suspects the effort will continue to get it to wherever it needs to get. What I imagine to be the underlying axiom from an educational point of view is that it is more infrastructure for doing engaging things by writing pure Python from what - if it were up to me- would be the simplest possible edit/run environment. I don't have a name for the educational philosophy behind such thinking, and don't expect it to become ubiquitous. Justs makes me smile. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] OLPC related: pyGTK for cross-platform (Mac especially)?
Paul D. Fernhout wrote: I'm still in a state of flux about where to go next after PataPata Phase I (recently discussed here). Assuming I continue with Python (rather than moving more towards Smalltalk, either Squeak or one for the JVM), what interests me most is working on cross-platform applications (Mac, PC, GNU/Linux). I am puzzled. Things are difficult enough. You prefer Smalltalk syntax, Squeak is on the OLPC, and you seem interested in the kinds of activities that Squeak, presumably is good at. Why is there an issue? Use Squeak. Can a Squeaklike environment be created in Python?? The answer is either yes, but so or no but so what... because there is already a Squeak, and Python folks presumably have better things to spend there time on. Like offering alternatives. Or so it seems to me. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] OLPC (was FYI: PataPata postmortem link)
Kevin Driscoll wrote: Don't sweat the gatekeepers, nor their philosophical leanings. Deploy your skills at teaching with Python. Students who discover your code will benefit. Teachers who discover your code will benefit. Kevin Either its infrastructure will be designed to allow easy uninstall and install, so that the decisionmaking will ultimately be where it belongs - in Caracas or in the bush, as the case may be. Or it will not be. I suspect the latter, since a piece of hardware to be used as appropriate as decided by the people in whose hands it rests, tends not to have philosophical leaning. But the people closest to OLPC seem to say that the OLPC does, and should. Don't sweat OLPC, period, is where I come down.. So I think perhaps we do have a nuanced disagreement. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] OLPC (was FYI: PataPata postmortem link)
Winston Wolff wrote: On Nov 29, 2006, at 10:41 AM, Arthur wrote: Over the years, what I have discovered about educational software is that most of it is junk, and the really useful things to connect kids with are the open-ended packages which provide an avenue for their creativity and sense of mastery over aspects of the real or digital world -- so, for example, learning to write with a word processor is much better than playing some silly flash-words game, and using Photoshop or the GIMP is probably much better than using some silly math-blaster game or even the award winning Oregon Trail (which is pretty good as those things go). I definitely have to agree with Arthur on this point. Hi Winston - Nice to hear from someone with whom I would enjoy having lunch, and did ;) For the record I was simply quoting Paul Fernhout. Who is a Smalltalker (is it OK to say that, Paul?), working in the area of educational software for a lot longer, and with a lot more technical sophistication under his belt than have I. You can tell it ain't me writing. He spells well ;) Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] OLPC (was FYI: PataPata postmortem link)
Winston Wolff wrote: There's so much free stuff out there now, it is really up to the developer to sell their platform. But I presume your question was rhetorical, and for the purpose of selling your platform? The market seems to respond best, at the moment, to audacity. Having met you, I think you are at disadvantage. Not your style. Hopefully, it's just a matter of time before that changes. (boy, I said that a lot more politely than I feel) Art. ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
[Edu-sig] Who are these people???
Reading through some literature of The Future of Learning Group of the MIT Media Lab http://learning.media.mit.edu/projects.html There are astounding statements - in any sense one chooses to take the word astounding. My favorite is right near the top. Point 2, in fact. 2) established practices of parenting must be re-examined. I like the the phrasing, in particular. must be. Who are these people and who do they think they are??? It is astounding to be an any environment where one feels like one is being bizarre in expressing one's perspective on how bizarre such statements seem. They, as they say, prefer environments of like-minded people. No, I would not feel welcome. Luckily none of this has anything to do with Python and education. And I am being OT. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Who are these people???
Tom Hoffman wrote: This is why I find it so amusing everytime someone writes that the problem with OLPC is that it is just about hardware and there isn't any educational philosophy behind it. Well we certainly agree about something. There is an educational philosophy behind it. And apparently it extends to folks' living room tables. And is only welcoming to people who are not like-minded. Why aren't you against it.??? Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Who are these people???
Arthur wrote: And is only welcoming to people who are not like-minded. Why aren't you against it.??? Don't you see its the like-mindedness that is the root of the problem, and the root of my reaction to this Educational Philosophy because it contradicts everything it purports to represent but at its root aspires toward being ubiquitous because it *needs* to be. Ambitious. As you say., established practices of parenting must be re-examined I try to avoid lunching with anyone capable of such utterances. They tend to lack humor. . Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] OLPC (was FYI: PataPata postmortem link)
Bert Freudenberg wrote: On Nov 29, 2006, at 16:06 , Tom Hoffman wrote: I would point out that writing educational software for people who don't have computers isn't very useful either, and that once kids have computers (on a common, free platform) there's a lot more incentive to write educational software for them. Exactly my reasoning - OLPC is going to be a common, free platform, so it should be plenty of incentive. Yet, little is happening. Two points: One from Paul Fernhout, who just spent months on trying to make something happen: 1) Over the years, what I have discovered about educational software is that most of it is junk, and the really useful things to connect kids with are the open-ended packages which provide an avenue for their creativity and sense of mastery over aspects of the real or digital world -- so, for example, learning to write with a word processor is much better than playing some silly flash-words game, and using Photoshop or the GIMP is probably much better than using some silly math-blaster game or even the award winning Oregon Trail (which is pretty good as those things go). 2) What is happening is what is happening. And if the platform is indeed open enough, the official OLPC hierarchy is not relevenat. What belongs on the machines will find its way onto the machines. The best thing that the hierarchy can do is leave enough room. If I were going to contribute, I am all for help in an understanding of the memory constraints in which I need to work. My philosophy of rewards and punishment is nobody's business. I am not a child. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] pygeo, vpyython stats
Hi Francois - Thanks for the correction. Closer look, the only distro that is being downloaded on sourceforge is the vpython 4.xxx beta series. Those are the numbers the stats I looked at are tracking. Oops, again. BTW, business has been bringing me to Strasbourg recently. A client/friend is negotiating buying an interest in a manufacturer out near Colmar, and I am advising. Was there for the second time, the week before last. Beautiful area. If what we are working on goes further I will probably be back there from time to time. Would be nice to get together and duke out the differences in world views we seem to have. Art Hello Arthur, From my personal experience when I download vpython I do it from the official vpython website : http://www.vpython.org On this site the downloads are mainly from the site (not from a link to sourceforge downloads): http://www.vpython.org/win_download25.html http://www.vpython.org/linux_download.html http://vpython.org/OSX_download-10.2.html http://vpython.org/OSX_download-10.2.html On pygeo website this is not the case : http://pw1.netcom.com/~ajs/download.html http://pw1.netcom.com/%7Eajs/download.html francois ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org mailto:Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
[Edu-sig] forking vpython????
For the record: I have made my peace with Bruce Sherwood, the physics professor who administers the the vpython project. Anyone listening in on visual-python list can see that our recent interactions are quite cordial- as are the private interaction we have recently had. He and Ruth Chabay are hard at work meeting a deadline for a second addition of Matters and Interaction http://www4.ncsu.edu/~rwchabay/mi/ which is seems to me is an innovative introductory physics textbook, and an innovative use of Python, via VPython, in education. That being said: The possibility that I will approach my contributions to vpython as a fork, rather joining the project seems strong. a) I am frustrated with the pace of feedback to my efforts to contribute, and in fact there is no one currently committed to the project very qualified to evaluate those efforts. b) I am upfront about my lack of C++ expertise, and shy from the responsibility of making contributions in an environment where the program is being used in a growing number of college curricula and where there is not the expertise to vet those contributions, however: - PyGeo exercises vpython extensively, and has developed a fairly extensive set of tests (of a kind). I am satisfied to consider my vpython-fork code as production quality to the extent those tests are passed. OTOH, those test are not designed explicitly to test vpython, and I can understand a decision that they are inadequate for this purpose. c) In going through the vpython code I am finding a lot of undocumented features, and a lot of easy extensions. There are, for example, a number of functions on vectors and vector methods that are already written and used internally. There are written and used internally because they are of the kind that are useful in 3d mathematics. The boost.python framework is there, allowing them to be exposed to Python trivially - one line of code. The availability of these functions and methods would add performance to PyGeo. Not sure I want to have to debate the point with anyone as to why they have not been exposed, and whether they should be. Would like to be in a just do it position. There are whole other structures - vector_arrays and scalar_arrays - that have been exposed to Python, but, are incomplete and therefore totally undocumented. Completing and extending them, I am feeling now, is within my capabilities. I would like to get on with it outside of committee type discussion. d) VPython_main is free to access my forked versions and make their own decisions on which changes I have made to incorporate, and which not. I think I prefer not to be in that direct loop or advocating for this change or that - as to VPython_main. Wonder if anyone here has any thoughts on this. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Truth values and comparisons
Scott David Daniels wrote: Though I guess we are all allowed to define sound programming for ourselves. With the exception you pointed out about space shuttles. if sum(abs(the_array)) != 0: go ahead Am I still blowing up anything, potentially?? Still preferring something along these lines in the context in which I am working. any may be more readable (it is certainly more succinct).to the knowing reader, but less so to the less knowing. But it is hard to separate readability from some concept of who your readers might be, and overall context. It also allows me to switch easily to the concept of zero for practical purposes as opposed to true/false. if sum(abs(the_array)) EPS: go ahead OTOH, I am the one always fighting condescension. I can see it be argued (my own objection to some of the arguments against int/int = int, always , was something along these lines) that my approach - in a pedagogical settings - effectively avoids an opportunity to elucidate something that should be elucidated. Probably no way to win in any black and white sense with these kinds of issues. Think I'll go with any in the end, unless there is a real reason to believe that zero for practical purposes is or might come into play. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Vpython 4.0
Arthur wrote: ...including some undocumented features that are intended to make vpython accessible to other GUI toolkits (from what I gather). Looking closer, what Jonathan has done is expose the display_kernel functionality to Python. It is the same display_kernel functionality that is inherited and specialized in the C++ code to create the functioning gtk and native Windows displays. It appears to me that the idea is that one should be able to specialize other windowing environments - say wxPython - by sub-classing from display_kernel *in Python*. Which sounds to me a clever way to go, if it is in fact workable. Dethe???. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
[Edu-sig] Vpython 4.0
Making a long story as short as I can: Taking on the project of getting vpython to numpy compatibility (think I got there) brought me for the first time to a serious look at vpython 4.0 beta, which I had been avoiding, knowing it was buggy. Bugs, aside - turns out it is a major step forward, implementing transparency, texturing, advanced lighting, among other cool features - including some undocumented features that are intended to make vpython accessible to other GUI toolkits (from what I gather). Anybody interested might run the texture_and_lighting.py demo to get a feel for some of the new capabilities. Very cool. The only deal killing bug seems to be the one related to mouse.getclick() crashes, on Windows. So I thought I'd have a look, getting quickly way over my C++ head, finding that a mouse click event involved code that included shared pointers, signals and slots, threads,and the direct manipulation of the Python GIL. Way over my C++ head. I tried to follow the code and on a gander decided to see what would happen if I cut out the direct Python gil manipulation, having some clue/instinct that there was some conflict between that and what the boost::shared_ptr library was doing in managing object life cycles. And with that one change (simple changing a call from py_pop to pop to short-circuit going into the gil code), the demo that was consistently crashing, the diople.py demo, now seems stable Which of course seems too good to be true, because presumably Jonathan Brandmeyer, the CS student author of this, had some specific reasons to be messing with the Python gil, and I don't know what I may be breaking, on what platforms, by my fix, if it is in fact a fix at all. Or else I'm a genius, or lucky, or something. Anybody willing to jump in here, to any extent, to have a look see? Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Truth values and comparisons
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've not used .any or .all, but having just taught my CS1 students about boolean operators, I was reminded that Python works as the following example describes: x = a and b # if both a and b are true, x is assigned b, otherwise x is assigned a x = 2 and 3 # x is assigned 3 x = 0 and 2 # x is assigned 0 x = a or b # if a is true, x is assigned a, if a is true, x is assigned a, if a is false and b is true, x is assigned b, if both a and b are false, x is assigned False You need to determine what should make vertex_map[tp] be true... thanks, but having some trouble: import Numeric as N a=N.array([0,0,0]) b=N.array([0,0,1]) a and b array([0, 0, 0]) b and a array([0, 0, 0]) Can this be? Either both a and b are true, or they are not, so can it be returning the a in both cases? Something screwy, other than my comprehension here? Same problem with a or b array([0, 0, 1]) b or a array([0, 0, 1]) OTOH, this makes sense to me - with 0 being False any(a) False all(a) False any(b) True all(b) False Though anyone growing up with the Python boolean operator might wonder why it is as it is - i.e. when 0 was the way to spell False this behavior is fairly well expected. Now that False is spelled False, having 0 any less true than 1, when thinks one is dealing with numbers as numbers, is likely to catch the less geeky unaware, IMO. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Truth values and comparisons
John Zelle wrote: On Monday 30 October 2006 10:49 am, Arthur wrote: thanks, but having some trouble: import Numeric as N a=N.array([0,0,0]) b=N.array([0,0,1]) a and b array([0, 0, 0]) This tells me that a zero array is being treated as False (the logical extension to arrays of 0 being false. b and a array([0, 0, 0]) Right. In both cases, the answer is False, which Python gives to you by handing you the first False expression. Ah. that is what I was missing, returns the first *False* expression. I was interpreting Dave to say that it returns the first expression, period. With that, things fall into place. Thanks, Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Truth values and comparisons
John Zelle wrote: This is why in teaching I prefer to use explicit tests: if x != 0: do something Rather than if x: do something Yeah, so in the case I am looking at there is a branching based on whether either of 2 arrays are all zeros. So to achieve numpy compatibility, and to make the code more understandable to folks (like myself) who have some trouble in switching gears between numbers being used as numbers and at the same time being used for their truth values (kind of a trick really), I might do if sum(x) !=0: use this array else: use other array. kind of thing. The case here being distinguishable, in my mind, from the situation where one purposefully fills an array with 0's and 1's, with the intention of representing truth values. In *that* case the if sum(x) !=0 would work just as well, but now would seem to be the trick solution rather than the elegant one. Interesting how context matters in these kind of styling questions. Assuming I am making sense... Is concerning myself with this distinction sound programming, or is the hard core answer more to the effect what works works, what doesn't doesn't - and one should focus only on that, and perhaps the performance impact of available alternatives? Though I guess we are all allowed to define sound programming for ourselves. Art Art --John ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of vpython
On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 10:54 -0700, Dethe Elza wrote: I agree with John, and will make a stronger statement that C++ and Boost are part of the problem, not part of the solution as far as future development of VPython goes. But...and about the only but I can think of... One of the beauties of the current distro is that one can inherit the exposed C++ classes - i.e. one can inherit and extend cvisual.sphere in a Python class. Hate to see that go away, in large part because of its pedagogical value. And impression is that this feature would be difficult to preserve with another extension mechanism. But its mostly an impression. Jonathan Brandemeyer, the most recent maintainer of VPython, said that he did make some attempts to use PyOpenGL but found it to be too slow for VPython. That's why I think Pyrex might be the way to go --it looks mostly like Python code, but lets you call C code inline to make more optomized calls into the OpenGL infrastructure. You may be right. Recently came across a major 3d game engine which had forked in the direction of a pyrex solution. My other hope for VPython would be to build it on a more capable 3D system, such as Ogre or Panda3D (Mike Fletcher keeps a large list of such systems: http://www.vrplumber.com/py3d.py). In this scenario, VPython would be an easier entry point into one of these more capable (and correspondingly more complex) systems, an Ogre-lite so to speak. Here I finally get to strongly disagree. Vpython IMO should remain stand-alone, light-weight. Please, please. I also see it as a possible entry point to things like Ogre and Panda3d, but that is on a cognitive level, not a technical level. As a component to something either high-level and more heavyweight, or more low-level, I don't see a purpose to it. I doubt it does anything that Panda3d can't already do, and certainly nothing OpenGL can't already do. Vpython should be a lesson in how much one can do with not that much. Let folks outgrow it, before they move on to other tools. Not many will. Otherwise cognitive overload. Again I think of VPython as in fact the perfect visual extension to Python - something (with effort) you can keep in your head at one time. Its that sweet spot in the middle that makes it right for students, and string-theorists ;). Art This would create a new dependency on an external library, which is bad, but may give VPython better evolutionary legs, which would be good. My measure of how likely this scenario is, is based on having one of the scenegraph tools Just Work for the three main platforms (Windows, Linux, OS X), and that hasn't happened yet. There is so much of interest going on in the 3D world right now, with good working systems finally available for X3D[1], open-source tools to build 3D avatars for Second Life[2], machinima systems[3], and tools like Google SketchUp[4] making 3D accessible to anyone who is interested. It is sad to see VPython atrophy right now, but I'm sure that the ideas in it will find a home somewhere, whether the code does or not. [1] http://www.web3d.org/ [2] http://www.avimator.com/ [3] http://orange.blender.org/ --Dethe On 9-Oct-06, at 10:16 AM, Arthur Siegel wrote: On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 11:48 -0500, John Zelle wrote: I am also very concerned about this situation, as I think VPython is a wonderful tool (to which I've contributed). Hi John - Thanks for that concern. If you are following the vpython list you see that I am digging into the immediate issues. I have no C++ skills to have atrophied, but - as I said there - getting an understanding of building Python extensions has been on my agenda and something concrete to dig into helps, so that I am having some fun with it. But I agree that for all the simplicity on the surface, there is more complexity underneath than one would hope for. It had Dethe, for example, throwing up his hands in trying a port to native Mac. The project funding is over, so that only volunteer resources are available to salvage it. I agree with you that more radical strategy than following the current path is probably necessary. Py-OpenGL is itself moving to a ctypes implementation, and ctypes is now in the core Python distribution. Slight problem being that I have no understanding of what that means. Intuition is that the best solution might be there, someplace. Meantime I am getting more familiar with the current C++ code, so that I should be in a position to contribute to a re-implementation, given a strategy to do so. But it is OTOH scary that as to the vpython list, I seem to be the guru at the moment, since I certainly don't consider myself qualified to think this through without folks with more low-level skills. I am holding off to going the scipy list with things until I at least can talk
Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of vpython
On Mon, 2006-10-09 at 10:54 -0700, Dethe Elza wrote:My other hope for VPython would be to build it on a more capable 3D system, such as Ogre or Panda3D (Mike Fletcher keeps a large list of such systems: http://www.vrplumber.com/py3d.py). In this scenario, VPython would be an easier entry point into one of these more capable (and correspondingly more complex) systems Kirbyish thought - For those students moving in the direction of Ogre and Panda3D (in my view not necessarily a significant portion of those who might find something like VPython fun and interesting, at any rate): present VPython as a level to be beaten, with a definition of beating the level. The fact that there is no way to get to the Level 2 without beating Level 1 would be second nature to them. Beat VPython *and then* we install Panda3D. Should take them a few months of real work. Minimum. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Using Python as the CS 1 programming language
Just wanted to make sure that appropriate folks were aware of Titus Brown's request @: http://ivory.idyll.org/blog/oct-06/python-in-cs-1 In short, he is in discussion with Michigan State regarding a faculty position and teaching CS101 with Python has come up in those discussions, and he is looking for folks who have done so. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
[Edu-sig] The fate of vpython
This from the August 10 announcement of VPython 4.0beta5 In the Recent developments section of vpython.org you can read a summary of the new features, which is also included in the documentation contained in the release. This includes a description of remaining known bugs, some of which are serious, which means that you may enjoy playing with the exciting new features, but be aware that there are problems. I am not going to be able to do any more work on VPython for about three months, as the publisher of the physics textbook Ruth Chabay and I have written needs a second edition completed by November. Jonathan Brandmeyer has graduated from NCSU and is moving on to other things. So unless someone else steps forward, it is possible that this version 4 beta is frozen for several months. Bruce Sherwood Essentially it reads to me that the 4.xxx branch of vpython is in some netherworld and, probably, deep trouble, with serious bugs, and no developer. Don't know what Bruce's plan might be after completing his textbook work, but I think he would acknowledge that he's not the guy to do the hands-on development work to put things back on track. Problem is, neither am I. But I will try to begin to take this bull by the horns, as time allows. My plan at the moment is to try to fork from the latest stable 3.xxx branch, with the initial goal of making it Numpy compatible. As Numpy approaches final 1.0 release as the standard for array processing in Python, it seems to me that a package such as vpython *needs* to work to support it if it is to survive. If it doesn't survive there is a serious hole in the Python educational world, IMO. Serious educational projects are already suffering from this lack of compatibility. See The World is Your Python http://www.physics.cornell.edu/~myers/teaching/ComputationalMethods/python/WorldPy.html related to a Cornell U graduate physics course Computational Methods for Nonlinear Systems This course is a graduate computer laboratory, emphasizing hands-on programming with a variety of data structures and algorithms. We focus on the next generation of tools for computation, simulation, and research in a broad range of fields where vpython is among the required packages, but where they face: The current version of VPython, however, is built on top of the older Numeric package, and seems a bit fussy when used in conjunction with the newer NumPy. Fussy I think being a bit of an understatement I have gotten as far as to set up my ubuntu environment with necessary dev libraries for building against Python2.5 - boost, gtk2, gtkglarea,etc. and atc. and began to explore the .cpp moudles related to Numeric compatibility. It would be great to see something concrete come out of all this edu-sig chaos, brainstorming, bickering and worse. So I would prefer to see this fork of vpython from 3.xxx live as a community project, with *real* C developers involved, rather than myself learning as I go and perhaps quickly finding myself over my head and throwing up my hands. Any interest out there?? Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Python for Halloween
kirby urner wrote: Arthur, you make too many enemies too quickly and too easily. Nah, just making friends the hard way. But I think more it's a matter of not wanting to show unfinished work (a big no no in Fuller's self discipline, according to 'Critical Path' I think it was). To be finished it will need a beginning, a middle and an end. Not sure you have it in you. Easier - just declare that concept obsolete. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Edu-sig Digest, Vol 39, Issue 2
On Mon, 2006-10-02 at 10:00 -0700, kirby urner wrote: handle1 = ['coffee','sugar','cream'] handle2 = handle1 id(handle1) 13645944 id(handle2) 13645944 I always thought that when presenting this it is natural and important - in order for the student to truly get it - to do an as opposed to thingy. handle3=list(handle1) handle1[0]='tea' handle1 ['tea','sugar','cream'] handle3 ['coffee','sugar','cream'] To me this is so essential that I have argued that the fact that neither the list type having a copy method or the copy function being a built-in is a wart. But I think if it is a wart it impacts discovering Python, i.e. self-teaching, rather than teaching Python and learning Python more formally. Anyway, I would advocate the as opposed to be integrated into such a presentation. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Edu-sig Digest, Vol 39, Issue 2
On Mon, 2006-10-02 at 16:04 -0700, kirby urner wrote: Anyway, I would advocate the as opposed to be integrated into such a presentation. Art Actually *duplicating* a piece of memory (wasteful?), to make the same contents reside elsewhere (why?), with its own handles, is considered a semi-esoteric move in Python, not something you'd necessarily need right out of the box. In my mind, it is not a matter of needing copy right out of the box. And that is the argument I keep running into when making this general case - that teaching copy - in any form - early overemphasizes something that is semi-esoteric. And I understand that point. Except that mutable/non-mutable is cognitively more than semi-esoteric for the uninitiated. While there certainly is nothing in the least esoteric about the list data-type or the assignment operator. The argument I keep making and for which I cannot seem to find any takers, is that essential to explaining/understanding assignment of a list to a name, is understanding in the negative - i.e., what it is not. We are still just teaching basic assignment with regard to a list, and I maintain that doing so effectively should in part be done in the negative. What it is not silhouetting better what it is. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Edu-sig Digest, Vol 39, Issue 2
On Mon, 2006-10-02 at 16:04 -0700, kirby urner wrote: Or we might import the copy module. Or we might take the whole thing as a slice i.e. newlist = oldlist[:]. I used the list(handle1) alternative purposefully, based on Alex Martelli's position on the matter. The first time I heard him state a position on it was in an exchange on python-list in which I participated precisely on the subject under discussion re:referencing and copying It was one of the more satisfying discussions I have had on python-list. Apparently what I was saying was in line with some other discussion he has having with Anna re: CookBook2, and it seemed to have some influence in how he intended to approach the issue on copy in that edition. Don't know the end result, as I have CookBook1 and haven't sprung for 2. Here is a reference to that thread http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2004-August/237278.html Guido knows that this is a favorite topic of mine and has considered me quite the nudge for returning to it as often as I do. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Calculus with Stickworks (more Gnu Math)
kirby urner wrote: Related chatter with math teachers: http://mathforum.org/kb/thread.jspa?threadID=1459250tstart=0 I go there and hear you talking to a community of math teachers as if you were an official ambassodor of Python and edu-sig, and as if we were all on the bangwagon of gnu math and __rib__ syntax here. My inituition failed to failed me again. I don't see anything terribly wrong with a gnu math meme or even __rib__, if you must. But you are bullshitting them that there is a cohesive community around these particular Kirby-centric semantics here. Just as you bullshit us that there is a legion of gnu math teachers out there awaiting your next instruction. You are taking something open and public, and narrowing it, and appropriating it. I am an active participant of edu-sig (too active for some), so all I can demand is that you not purport to speak for me. Consider this that demand. More generally, I wish you would stop this flim-flam business. Or do it more elegantly, at least. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Your dream Linear function class
Kevin Driscoll wrote: Is there an easy graphing solution? vpython aand crunchy have been been recently suggested. Both have the advantage of being non-traditional solutions to this problem, i.e. they each offer the ability to graph, and much else. Seems to me there is something to be said for using a more general tool, for this specific purpose. Student might wonder into some general interest in the tool itself.. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] creating an interface vs. using one (Michel Paul)
Peter Chase wrote: Thanks, Dethe How about at least starting a thread there about well something. I promise never to post to that list. I have no embarrassment about how I handle myself here - whether I should or should not But would indeed feel better if those who feel I should had someplace to chat. But thanking Dethe for pointing you in the direction of an inert list is just being cute, it seems to me. I will jealous and annoyed if the discussions there becomes interesting and significant - having vowed not to participate. Make be jealous and annoyed. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] creating an interface vs. using one (Michel Paul)
kirby urner wrote: I'm amazed at the intellectual squalor my fellow citizens have acclimated themselves to. And I am more amazed at you, and who you think you are. Since it is clear to you that you are not among peers here, why not find somewhere to present your visions somewhere where you might be. Is that you face the same problem wherever you go? Funny thing. In the mean time, rather than subject myself to anymore abuse from you in an atmosphere where no one is willing to raise a peep in trying to help me get you to quiet down a bit, I will go away. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] creating an interface vs. using one (Michel Paul)
Jason Cunliffe wrote: Well if you are looking for a good business decision then *please* specify and work to compile an uber-useful LiveCD Edu-Sig distro with all the math-edu-geo goodies... Jason, what edu-sig have you been visiting??? Do you see a group of people here capable of cooperate decisionmaking? *My* LiveCD is specified. Python2.5, as is, + Numpy + Vpython. I honestly would choose not to confuse the issue further. All we should be thinking about in a distribution of this kind is infrastructure and framework and standards - and that, AFIAK, is all we need. Where is xturtle, where is pygeo, where is crunchy, where is the tetrahedron Different realm of things, IMO. Guido in fighting a different strategic battle declared Django to be the defacto standard web framework, knowing I am sure he would take fire. The Numeric/Numarray/Numpy is already the defacto standard multi-dimensional array and linear algebra package. Because there have been cooperate efforts made to keep it a progressive evolution rather than a splinter of projects. I think we need to think here also about defacto standards, rather than the kitchen sink of interesting alternatives. Which is why the LiveCD of the kind I think you have in mind is not the answer. I have had absolutely nothing to do with the creation of Vpython. PyGeo uses it because it serves it needs. It is versalite and serves many other kinds of needs as well. I think it good strategy to push it out front as a defacto standard for basic educational visualization, simulation and modeling tasks. Strategic decisions like this necessarily involve a degree of compromise, and someone with the authority to make a decision that such a compromise is in fact sound strategy. But here we are talking about a library that is so small and basically unpretensious that I see no way of pushing it to the fore without making it part of the standard distribution, which itself assumes the introduction of some of the Numpy functionality as well, which it is my understanding is something already on the drawing board, having Guido's attention and implicit support. Frankly I think Guido is removed from the day-to-day in this realm so I would not expect him to be willing to make a vpython decision. He only made the Django decision when his google work immersed him the the issues. So I have no answers - only ideas that are not driven by self-interest or self-aggrandizement. And which have some degree of strategic merit. Some, as in worth discussing, at a minimum. I am paid to advise in the development of business strategies, by people who could go elsewhere but who know me well and with whom I have developed a track record. And the most important track record I have is the ability to separate my self-interest from their interests. My fee is X if the deal happens, Y if it doesn't and XY. I work with people who are confident that if I don't like the smell of the deal, they will know about it, adamantly. But they are also people too smart to follow my advice as from a mountaintop, and yes I have been known to be dead wrong - but usually within some shooting range and I do a pretty decent job of stating my range of certainty up front. This is in the 8.4 to 8.8 out of 10 range - that something substantial will be achieved relative to Python's acceptance in educational settings.. But what is the risk associated with being wrong??? By my analysis, nothing terrible. An extra library. So we have a go, basically. What I can't judge are the depth of the technical difficulties. My intuition that they are manageable is nothing more than intuition - especially when we are discussing the more exotic platforms. Art That way you avoid conflicts and friction. This distro is free to promote, develop and demonstrate a __range__ of tools covering a range of tastes, philosophies, needs and competences on one disk [package, torrent, ISO, pick your medium]. Install tested and run on existing 'puters [WinXp etc without any collateral damage] It can include brave new 21st century alternative OS curriculae. Then When If it is a obvious success, don't be surprised that the default standard distribution sensibly absorbs the relevant parts someday. Pioneers always lead administrations and institutions right? Jason ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] creating an interface vs. using one (Michel Paul)
kirby urner wrote: On 9/24/06, Arthur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In sum, whereas I think Pygeo has many distribution options, I think trying to bloat the default installer with Vpython is *not* the most efficacious route to that end. You do better at insulting me when you are not particularly trying then when you are. My ideas for vpython is a strategy for PyGeo. I am being clever, manipulative and indirect. And you flushed me out. I frankly haven't been in the mood to even look at PyGeo for the last few months. It will cycle back around where I am again. I generally have too much else going on in the nice weather - as a gardener and as a golfer. PyGeo is indoor fun. We are entering the PyGeo season soon enough, and I will strategize then. So no Mr. Urner, that's not the strategy about which I am concerned. You are immersed more in the world of who gets credit for what than I am. If I worry, its about supporting my family without sacrificing my freedom of motion, and thought. It ain't easy. But it certainly has nothing to do with PyGeo, or Python, for that matter. Not a thing. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] creating an interface vs. using one (Michel Paul)
kirby urner wrote: One thing it's good for is showing off Beyond Flatland's Renaissance Era perspective, i.e. XYZ instead of just XY. People are gaga for graphing calculators but can't even get off the XY plane with their sorry methods. No Polyhedra, no Physical Realism. VPython is good for contrasting a computer-savvy math education with a calculators-only approach. Let's measure the gap, put a price tag on it, in terms of future living standards. $1,412.17 Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] creating an interface vs. using one
kirby urner wrote: As gnu math teachers, we cover all this before college, no problem, using Python, Ruby or whatever. Strong OO is advisable, as it's just natural to consider Polyhedra as Objects (with spin methods, face count attributes etc.), and we *definitely* want lots of those. Hmmm. But there is no such thing as gnu math, so how can there be gnu math teachers? Who do you think you are leading? Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] creating an interface vs. using one
Michel Paul wrote: Language transcends device, because a language can create a device. Devices don’t create language. What a language is is deeper than what a gadget is. With just a slight bit of tweaking, the language of Algebra can become a computational language! That’s really cool. I just don’t get why more people don’t care about that, at least at a high school level. Because, again, I can guarantee you that there are a lot of scientists at CalTech, and JPL out there who DO care and who agree with me that THAT is what 21st century math should be about! Not USING interfaces – articulating them! Praise be. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] creating an interface vs. using one (Michel Paul)
Andy Judkis wrote: Let me reveal my ignorance (there's a lot of it!) and ask if Python has a way to plot a function that's as easy as on the TI. Without that I think it's going to be a very tough sale, unfortunately. There are many ways to do that in Python, i.e. a good number of available libraries supporting such functionality, simply, elaborately and inbetween. It does require that import move up the food chain a bit. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] creating an interface vs. using one
kirby urner wrote: On 9/23/06, Michel Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: he only syntax required other than Algebra is def and return. Here I'd part company a bit and point out that algebra is not so nailed down as a namespace that we can't consider def and return excluded. We might all take the opportunity to pontificate with respect to our own particular visions, down to every detail. Mine is one where the significance of the relationship of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is taught and understood in PI squared different ways, including - importantly - as history. The calculation to x digits being the least important or interesting - something a mere machine can accomplish with a little help. But such a discussion is perhaps not exactly to the point right here and now. no further reading required. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] creating an interface vs. using one
Daniel Ajoy wrote: In math, operators and numbers are two different things and the former don't belong to later. To make Kirby's point, I guess it depends on how one defines in math. Math is cannot reasonably be defined to exclude how math is, in many cases, practiced. And math *is* practiced within the OO paradigm. Extensively, expansively, etc. Having gotten to where it has in the struggle for the survival of ideas, one needs to presume it has some inherent strength - of the kind that needs to be respected. But where Kirby seems to see a movement from one paradigm to another as progress, I seem to prefer to see an inclusive expansion of the existing paradigm as such. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] creating an interface vs. using one
kirby urner wrote: Historically, the use of the word squared in this context contains a whiff of a moronic past, when the orthonormalists monopolized world affairs. Fortunately those days are long over (and yes, we still say squared when referring to 2nd powering, in the interests of backward compatibility). Kirby I am trying not to let you provoke me into the bad guy. You make it so hard. My disdain for Kirby == Kirby's disdain for the past. But I thought I would not have to articulate that for a time, because I thought he was going away for a time. Is that time past?? Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] creating an interface vs. using one
kirby urner wrote: But per my http://www.4dsolutions.net/ocn/oopalgebra.html with embedded rotated by quaternions XYZ cube (yes, wrote it myself -- better programmer than Arthur, duh), that's going to change. Deconstructing Kirby is best left to Kirby, I guess. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] creating an interface vs. using one
kirby urner wrote: Historically, the use of the word squared in this context contains a whiff of a moronic past, when the orthonormalists monopolized world affairs. Dante reserved the first circle of Hell—Limbo—for the virtuous Pagan, the poets who were born and died before the Coming. No such luck with you? Down to the moronic sewer with them all?? Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
[Edu-sig] Playing games
From an article referenced (critically) in todays planet.python.org Do the universities provide for society the intellectual leadership it needs or only the training it asks for? Traditional academic rhetoric is perfectly willing to give to these questions the reassuring answers, but I don't believe them. By way of illustration of my doubts, in a recent article on Who Rules Canada?, David H. Flaherty bluntly states Moreover, the business elite dismisses traditional academics and intellectuals as largely irrelevant and powerless. So, if I look into my foggy crystal ball at the future of computing science education, I overwhelmingly see the depressing picture of Business as usual. The universities will continue to lack the courage to teach hard science, they will continue to misguide the students, and each next stage of infantilization of the curriculum will be hailed as educational progress. I now have had my foggy crystal ball for quite a long time. Its predictions are invariably gloomy and usually correct, but I am quite used to that and they won't keep me from giving you a few suggestions, even if it is merely an exercise in futility whose only effect is to make you feel guilty. Austin, 2 December 1988 prof. dr. Edsger W. Dijkstra Department of Computer Sciences The University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712-1188 USA Then from: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2005/sep05/09-12CSGames.mspx * Support Includes Lobbying, Sponsorships and Enhanced Development Tools * Microsoft’s and MSR’s efforts to promote new instructional methods and rebuild enrollment in computer science programs go far beyond the RFP awards. In addition to funding, proponents of game-related instruction say they need help changing perceptions about computer games, particularly among veteran computer science faculty who never played computer games when they were growing up. Microsoft and MSR have sought to take a leadership role in these efforts by promoting potential applications for serious games and lobbying government, academia and business about the benefits of game-related instruction in computer science, Nordlinger says. As usual in these discussions, the Microsoft stance relies - at it s essence - on maintaining ambiguity about whether we are talking about playing games, or the demanding (I can't do it, for example) notion of writing them. And is in this respect is -at its essence - dishonest. They are indeed playing games. And mostly winning. Python??? The Scheme community seem to me to take something of a stance on these issues. Perhaps that stance is a __built-in__ to the language structure. Python is perhaps more flexible, perhaps multi-paradigm extends to these kinds of issues as well. The best I seem to be able to hope for as a member of the Python community is that it not become identified with a particular paradigm. To me we are due for a different kind of PyCon keynote speaker on the subject of technology and education, in the interest of balance. Perhaps a leading Schemer. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Playing games
Arthur wrote: Then from: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2005/sep05/09-12CSGames.mspx * How the game is being played: More from the same source: Studies funded by the National Science Foundation have found that the student retention rate in introductory level computer science classes that use Alice nearly double – from 47 percent to 88 percent -- among students who are traditionally at risk of dropping out of computer science. On average, these students earned B-level grades, higher than the C-level grades earned by at-risk students who didn’t use Alice. Studies funded by the National Science Foundation sounds substantial. But of course we are talking about studies about the effectiveness of Alice by the creator of Alice. I suspect all is absolutely consistent - the studies have *no* scientific merit. The answer the studies give is absolutely determined by the question it asks. Is it the right question?? Science again is the victim. Difficult to maintain by relentless assault on the Pausch world view under the circumstances. Through a serendipitous connection, I have some information he is recently battling serious health issues. He is a young man. I hope the information is mistaken, and if correct - wish him well in this battle. Truly. Art Support Includes Lobbying, Sponsorships and Enhanced Development Tools * Microsoft’s and MSR’s efforts to promote new instructional methods and rebuild enrollment in computer science programs go far beyond the RFP awards. In addition to funding, proponents of game-related instruction say they need help changing perceptions about computer games, particularly among veteran computer science faculty who never played computer games when they were growing up. Microsoft and MSR have sought to take a leadership role in these efforts by promoting potential applications for serious games and lobbying government, academia and business about the benefits of game-related instruction in computer science, Nordlinger says. As usual in these discussions, the Microsoft stance relies - at it s essence - on maintaining ambiguity about whether we are talking about playing games, or the demanding (I can't do it, for example) notion of writing them. And is in this respect is -at its essence - dishonest. They are indeed playing games. And mostly winning. Python??? The Scheme community seem to me to take something of a stance on these issues. Perhaps that stance is a __built-in__ to the language structure. Python is perhaps more flexible, perhaps multi-paradigm extends to these kinds of issues as well. The best I seem to be able to hope for as a member of the Python community is that it not become identified with a particular paradigm. To me we are due for a different kind of PyCon keynote speaker on the subject of technology and education, in the interest of balance. Perhaps a leading Schemer. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Playing games
kirby urner wrote: http://www.gamemaker.nl/ The first sentence at the site: Game Maker Do you want to develop computer games without spending countless hours learning how to become a programmer? You insist on promoting the ambiguity. Its creator apparently does not. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Playing games
kirby urner wrote: Back to your cryptic witticisms I see. I can't turn these into a real coherent position for ya. It will apparently never be coherent to you. You seem to require a kind of literalism that I think is not to the point. Try this: Computer technology, in general and in education, has not changed a basic realty of economics - you get what you pay for. You get from writing computer games by drag and drop exactly what you get. And stripped of pretensions, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that is. It *is* better than nothing, *but* worse than something more than that. The discussion of where it is reasonable to settle under particular circumstances is a reasonable discussion. A discussion geared toward surrounding something like GameMaker with pretense is not. I think there is much of that going on, so I find it necessary to claw at that pretense. Otherwise I would not. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000
John Zelle wrote: no, No, NO. I never said this. At least I didn't intend to. Please see the top of the message where I ask (virtually beg) for clarification on what you are saying. I thought you were saying that it's OK to teach programming in a math class, because it's being used there to motivate and illustrate mathematical concepts. no, No, No. ;) I am trying to say that some integration of algorithmics into required math education is eminently sensible. Among other things is a statement that computer programming - in some sense of the word - *is* for everyone. Despite all my silliness and freewheeling intelligence there being so much noise around these issues - I try to make sure any position I might try to advocate passes some basic test against common sense. I am satisfied this position does. And because I am satisfied it does, I don't feel the need for banners of any kind, for armies or - I would have thought - for confrontations. So I have always been confused why such an idea would meet with *any* resistance on a list such as this. It has from day one. Which has always been a clue to me that I had in some sense entered Chinatown, in arriving here. No - it ain't the Media Lab. It is modest. It is unconnected with Revelation, New Ages, and Second Comings. It brings us to no new dimensions. It actually brings no new great amount of stature to the geeks of the world, or to the software industry. It must be on the right track. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000
kirby urner wrote: On 9/16/06, Arthur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am trying to say that some integration of algorithmics into required math education is eminently sensible. As stated, that's too watered down to make a difference I should think. Of course math education centers around algorithmics to some degree, but does that entail any use of a programming language that executes electronically? Absolutely it does. My recommendation happens to be one called Python. I'm satisfied that it does to. But this position made a lot of sense several decades ago (nothing new in your view) and *still* most kids get little if any exposure to computer programming *except* through the CS door in college. I don't require that my views represent anything new. That's a harder task than I am prepared to try to handle, under this Sun. And my point exactly, in many ways. So for you, just having a sensible position is the end of it, hey? Like, the USA, IF using computer-controlled voting, THEN should have the source code be public and the process transparent. A sensible position no? So there's no fight shaping up, no battle lines to be drawn? I make sense, so now I get to go home and take bath and watch TV? It is necessary, though not sufficient. You tend to fail on the necessary part. And as you know, I am not simply a passive observer to the scene. I - like everyone - have my motives. I would indeed like something like PyGeo, source code and all, to be something accessible to a decent range of folks. I need help. You also seem to shy away from focusing on children, just want to make sure the Disneys stay out of it somehow. I am just more cautious about what I say in regard to the education of children. I understand less. I know I understand less, I say I understand less, but I am unconvinced I understand less than the folks who claim to understand more. People who don't properly defer to experts, when on expert turf, are considered arrogant. You must take your hat off in the presence of kings is how no one says it anymore, but many still mean it through various social cues. Who are the kinds here??? The geeks??? I defer to the educators. But they are being hounded by the geeks and software vendors, and can't be expected to cut through that noise at this particular moment of time. For good reason, they can't tell who to rely on at this point. If there is a moratorium on bold moves at this juncture, I support it. Eventually the din will quiet, and folks will begin to rely on their common sense again, God willing. It wsa on the right track thirty years ago when people like Alan Kay first started taking this position. Yeah. But Alan Kay is a schmuck. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000
John Zelle wrote: It is modest. It is unconnected with Revelation, New Ages, and Second Comings. It brings us to no new dimensions. It actually brings no new great amount of stature to the geeks of the world, or to the software industry. It must be on the right track. And I can't see how any reasonable person could be against that, which I why I thought you were saying something else ;-). By all means, let's agree that teaching some programming as part of math is a sensible enterprise. But that's not happening at the moment, at least not around here. In this incedible din, we can locate something that all reasonable people can agree about, and which is not being done - around here either. Ok. What's the plan? Who begins to take responsibility? I don't see this as a reason to denigrate the computer scientists who are trying to teach intro to programming courses as another entry point into this important mathematical domain. I assure you I was trying to do no such thing.. I in fact am simply listening, and feeling that talents are being wasted, that college professors of CS should not be burderened with what would be sensibly thought of - in other fields - as remedial work. Let me add just one more thought before signing off on this thread permanently. This undercurrent of introduction to programming as somehow being a poor way to teach programming is still bothering me. I said that, yes. But not, I think, in the way that you heard it. I think, again, that the introduction to programming at a college level should be an introduction to programming, not remedial mathematics. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000
kirby urner wrote: In what way? Many. many. See this post. See most of your posts. You are about as Full(er) of yourself as anyone I have ever encountered. You in fact hold a candle to Alan Kay. One of us *does* need to go away. How about this time its you. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000
kirby urner wrote: OK, I'll lurk for awhile Aaah thank you Mr. Urner. And if things go relatively quiet here as result, a few announcements here and there, and ask for help on this or that, sounds fine. You and I have had 5 years to cover our respective territories. It will give me a chance to test my theory that I am really quite a sweety pie, unprovoked. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000
kirby urner wrote: And in sounding this note, I think you and Alan Kay are in perfect harmony. He's sung that tune for years, and not even often key. Trying to sing it from the Disney and HP pulpits - if nothing else - maybe it necessarily off-key. Thinking no one would notice from where he was singing it made it arrogantly off-key. And that's just the beginning of some of my problems with the Kay's stance. But I've beaten that dead chicken into the ground by now. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000
John Zelle wrote: I _think_ I'm all for this, but again I'm not sure I know exactly what you are saying. If you are saying that students might get interested in programming through exposure in math (or some other domain) and then want to turn to CS classes to learn more, that sounds like a good thing. But it's still curious to me that the implied tone here is one of denigrating teaching introductory programming in CS classes because it is divorced from any domain and then at the same time suggesting the thing to do is teach programming in the context of math. I have a hard time digesting being told by a CS professor that there is no special relationship between mathematics, algorithmics, and the roots of computer science. Being told that by John Zelle I will try to think harder about it. But I find it hard to even find a way to put this in the maybe there is, maybe there isn't category. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Namespaces in the Humanities
kirby urner wrote: It's not a completely insane proposal, and it's not like you have to buy into it to the exclusion of every other paradigm. It is, like some other of what I read in (into) Fuller, the apparent stated esoterically. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000
kirby urner wrote: On 9/14/06, John Zelle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: introduction to algebra class. Or perhaps a better example, does a Calculus class have to also pay homage to linear algebra? Does a formal logic class need to be about calculus? Why isn't programming itself a legitimate entree into the world of mathematics? I just wanted to break in here and say from my perspective it's about killing as many birds with one stone as possible -- except I hate that metaphor, because who wants to kill any birds? Not me. But you get my point, it's about bandwidth. What's a better metaphor? Ok so far. Except I like to eat chicken well enough. As educators, we should be in a collaborative mindset. If math teachers are in overdrive to drill junior on the existence of functions in some quasi-irrelevant twilight zone called algebra then the *least* a Python intro course might do is *reinforce* this archaic notion, and be articulate about functions in the Python namespace (where they're top level fer gosh sakes -- not bit players). That mouth where we put default values, accept optional arguments, keywords, is where the attention should be, as it's complicated, if freeing. raw_input takes the focus from parameter passing, and makes I/O a side-effect of function execution -- or maybe the raw_input was at the module level (even worse)? In other words, programming is a kind of math, algebra is a kind of math and working the roads together is reinforcing of some of the core concepts of each - although it can be said better than that also. My impression is that this is somewhat second nature as an approach to the Schemers. Except they have to fight the syntax more then we do - though I am sure a Schemer could tell me why it is a good enough trade-off to need to do so. There's a conspiracy to keep basic numeracy divided between math class on the one hand, and CS-as-a-college-thing-only. A conspiracy needs a motive. There is not motive and therefore I can't find a conspiracy. There *is* inertia and misinformation. Most of the misinformation is coming from folks with a motive. The same motive I often wake up with in the morning - to make a buck. Perhaps why it seems so transparent to me. I'm far from accusing you of being a member of this conspiracy (on the contrary, your book is quite popular with the high school crowd), but I am it's declared enemy, as I think CS needs a *much* bigger footprint in the early grades, where recruiters for technology-literate jobs are artificially kept at a disadvantage. They are the ones with the motive. If this is about worrying about them, I resign. How the hell you and I come to the same place about dir() confounds me. Let's level the playing field: just knowing how to program doesn't make you a professor of anything, let alone computer science. CS is about communicating a heritage. There is heritage in your world?? I hear more a world where everything is obsolete before it dries. A Gnu Age guru type, you are. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] More on teaching about namespaces
My idea of a good first move, after booting some Python GUI shell for the first time, is to go dir(). IDLE 1.2b2 dir() ['__builtins__', '__doc__', '__name__'] Already the filling is: we're not alone. And what are those weird __xxx__ things. They look strange. Easy. Snake ribs ;) Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000
Peter Bowyer wrote: At 11:47 13/09/2006, Arthur wrote: I can imagine an introductory course that was in fact more a *reading* course than a writing course - that spent a good deal of its time analyzing the code of relatively straightforward, but interesting, working applications. The satellite view, before we attempt to descend to a finer resolution. That's a lot like how I learned to program. I bought a book (Professional PHP - nothing like an intro book!) and once I'd read some basics I went in and wrote a proper application - an ecard script, following the outline of Perl code that I'd read previously (without being able to write). That way I learned from someone else (apprenticeship) and wrote something that was *useful* when finished (encouraging me to learn). Myself as well. My first major Python project was simply a port of some Java code to Python - a 3d math library. Read/write - read the Java, write the Python. But in the end I had something actually useful, to an extent I could not possibly have accomplished at that point on a write/write basis. All this of course makes Open Source of central importance. It happens that the 3d Java library I wanted to port was not open - nice API docs, no source. Luckily someone in Japan had taken upon themselves to do a functionally equivalent Open Source version of the library, .i.e. creating functional source working backward from the API. As it happens, on a *read* basis, about the first thing one can expect to encounter and need to explain (maybe after the doc string) is the import statement. To me this feels exactly right. OTOH, a recent post on the Python3000 list - discussing the fate of raw_input() - re-iterates the position that an understanding of the import statement is something that belongs way, way down the road - in a way that was much to sure of itself, for my taste. That one point - where the import statement belongs, pedagogically - seems to in some way represent the quake line of different points of view. Bucky might recognize this fact as a symptom of a pre-synergistic stage of things. But one side or the other always needs to lose some surety in order to make a first move in the direction of synergy.. You first ... whoever you is ;) Art When studying physics I found the same approach worked, taking a real-world application generated enthusiasm for learning esoteric subjects. If you enjoy learning for the sake of knowledge I guess this approach isn't needed; otherwise I believe it to be the most effective approach. Peter ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000
John Zelle wrote: So yes, we want our students to be reading cade, especially good code How good? Another subtle problem. One of my difficulties in becoming self-taught fluent in certain mathematical ideas: Educators don't want to communicate something irresponsible in connection with the concept of rigor, in a field where rigor is to the essence of things. While at the same time the rigorous statement of things can the impede the possibility of penetration, where a more approximate presentation might be more to the pedagogical point. What I have found that going to the source is often the best approach (though often not). Felix Klein types often seem more comfortable with a more casual and relaxed presentation of their ideas, to a non-peer audience, than do those charged with presenting Klein's ideas to others. The educators seem to feel - the instinct is good enough - more obligated to present Klein's ideas carefully, and therefore rigorously. And seem to feel that only Klein himself has the right to let himself off that hook. Its almost a form of professional etiquette, it seems. Klein meant here as a more general concept. Fuller had the solution . Make believe the ideas were his, thereby giving himself leave to present them anyway he chose .But that is a concept hard to roll out. ;). Teasing, Kirby. Art , but I also want my students to be writing programs, lots and lots of programs. It's hard to appreciate what makes code good until you've written some bad stuff yourself. --John On Wednesday 13 September 2006 7:18 am, Arthur wrote: Peter Bowyer wrote: At 11:47 13/09/2006, Arthur wrote: I can imagine an introductory course that was in fact more a *reading* course than a writing course - that spent a good deal of its time analyzing the code of relatively straightforward, but interesting, working applications. The satellite view, before we attempt to descend to a finer resolution. That's a lot like how I learned to program. I bought a book (Professional PHP - nothing like an intro book!) and once I'd read some basics I went in and wrote a proper application - an ecard script, following the outline of Perl code that I'd read previously (without being able to write). That way I learned from someone else (apprenticeship) and wrote something that was *useful* when finished (encouraging me to learn). Myself as well. My first major Python project was simply a port of some Java code to Python - a 3d math library. Read/write - read the Java, write the Python. But in the end I had something actually useful, to an extent I could not possibly have accomplished at that point on a write/write basis. All this of course makes Open Source of central importance. It happens that the 3d Java library I wanted to port was not open - nice API docs, no source. Luckily someone in Japan had taken upon themselves to do a functionally equivalent Open Source version of the library, .i.e. creating functional source working backward from the API. As it happens, on a *read* basis, about the first thing one can expect to encounter and need to explain (maybe after the doc string) is the import statement. To me this feels exactly right. OTOH, a recent post on the Python3000 list - discussing the fate of raw_input() - re-iterates the position that an understanding of the import statement is something that belongs way, way down the road - in a way that was much to sure of itself, for my taste. That one point - where the import statement belongs, pedagogically - seems to in some way represent the quake line of different points of view. Bucky might recognize this fact as a symptom of a pre-synergistic stage of things. But one side or the other always needs to lose some surety in order to make a first move in the direction of synergy.. You first ... whoever you is ;) Art When studying physics I found the same approach worked, taking a real-world application generated enthusiasm for learning esoteric subjects. If you enjoy learning for the sake of knowledge I guess this approach isn't needed; otherwise I believe it to be the most effective approach. Peter ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] More on teaching about namespaces
kirby urner wrote: What I like about namespaces is the idea is intuitively obvious to anyone spending any time in academia, because every professor is one. It takes time to learn just what each means by this or that key term, although supposedly in math it's easier, because all the definitions are agreed upon in advance, axioms too, plus rules of deduction, so the theorems also. My idea of a good first move, after booting some Python GUI shell for the first time, is to go dir(). IDLE 1.2b2 dir() ['__builtins__', '__doc__', '__name__'] Already the filling is: we're not alone. And what are those weird __xxx__ things. They look strange. Thinking like a computer scientist, you mentally pair tics and decide we have three quoted words, like a list of some time. See? Python fits your brain. You're already thinking like a pro. Instead of words we say strings, and a space is just one more character (ASCII 32). Damn it if I don't agree. Exactly where I would start as well. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] Namespaces in the Humanities
kirby urner wrote: Why Fuller called it 4D instead of 3D is he was very impressed by the simple nature of the Tetrahedron, the fact that it had fewer faces, edges and vertices than the cube. In the world of hard edges, skeletons, sticks, it seemed the simplest of shapes (not a new realization -- mathematicians often call it The Simplex). He renamed 3d, in an I know something you don't sort of way. Paraphrasing Atanas, in another context: Maybe he does, maybe he does't. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] simple guessing games
Arthur wrote: a) One of design features of the programming language named after a comedy troup, not a reptile, that it seems to me is of fundamental significance to tis success is its willingness to be outward facing, not inward - its willingness to leverage the use of generally accepted and commonly used idioms, not be overly clever, i.e be a public language, not a private language. FWIW, I also happen to think that the passion around the @decorator debate centered around this issue - many people feeling that the facility had the potential of redirecting Python inward. I still cringe a bit when contemplating lots of @'s in the standard library of Python3000. And FWIW, it seems that it seeems to me that sys.stdin.readline() is more public facing than is raw_input(), and I think my gut preference for it is on that basis. All said at the risk of having my own private conversation. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] simple guessing games
Arthur wrote: FWIW, I also happen to think that the passion around the @decorator debate centered around this issue - many people feeling that the facility had the potential of redirecting Python inward. I still cringe a bit when contemplating lots of @'s in the standard library of Python3000. And FWIW, it seems that it seeems to me that sys.stdin.readline() is more public facing than is raw_input(), and I think my gut preference for it is on that basis. All said at the risk of having my own private conversation. Interested in finishing my thought, and having to leave for a client and unable to wait to see if there is any general interest in its thread before I do so - its only empty bandwidth after all -- A petition I *did* sign was the one imploring Guido to reconsider his choice of syntax for decorators. I signed it in opposition and dissent to its contents (good that the petition provided for that). So that I was supporting Guido's choice of syntax, and asking him to stick to his guns - thinking that @ isolated decorators appropriately as something other than Python business-as-usual. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] simple guessing games
kirby urner wrote: .. and a different kind of genius I think the biggest difference is perhaps is that you are surrounded more by geniuses than am I. I live in a world of continuums. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] simple guessing games
kirby urner wrote: Try it my way sometime. You might enjoy the experience. Not a chance. What I will do, is stop trying vis a vis Kirby Urner. With the final bit of advice: If you ever intend to try your schtick in *my* town, wear long underwear - its going to get cold. Fewer geniuses, but more sophisticates around here. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000
kirby urner wrote: import math math.cos( 90 * math.degrees) -- that's what a first class might include. If what stops 'em isn't the Python syntax, but the trig, then we go over the trig. Basic numeracy. All as a bundle. Not your grandfathers math class (but some hoped it'd be for their kids -- remember when the future was, well, futuristic?). How you manage to tangle your sensible and salable ideas into a rhetorical jumble that makes them sound a lot more dazed, dazzling, and unsaleable they then are on their merits - confounds me. I am convinced that the problem is that you have engaged the wrong enemy. It is not the school board of Hodunk, Missouri..Talked to with respect for your joint mission of the welfare of their charges, and your sensible ideas presented without your form of Princetonian arrogance - I see a team. Your problem is the radical constructivists. You believe in *typing*, you talk about *mathematical ideas* - trigonometry, even - rather than analytical skills, which of course means everything and nothing at the same time. They are better funded. You cannot afford your arrogance if you are at all serious about competing. But then I don't believe you are actually trying to win. Would take a kind of discipline that you exhibit does not interest you. Just getting your rocks off? Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000
Arthur wrote: kirby urner wrote: import math math.cos( 90 * math.degrees) -- that's what a first class might include. If what stops 'em isn't the Python syntax, but the trig, then we go over the trig. Basic numeracy. All as a bundle. Not your grandfathers math class (but some hoped it'd be for their kids -- remember when the future was, well, futuristic?) I am convinced that the problem is that you have engaged the wrong enemy. Another way to put it is that I see you as a victim. The substance of your ideas, I think you know at some level, are almost apparent to many of us who are literate in ways similar to the ways that you are literate - and whether or not we happen to be mentored by Buckminster Fuller. Computers come into to play - everyone is ready for that. Your grandmother, my great uncle, everyone's Aunt Tillie. Big deal. Stripped of the rhetorical flourishes, what is being suggested is a sensible, logical next step - no radical departure from existing practices and standards. Marginal and necessary improvement to what now exists. What others are offering is what America *really* loves. A Potion. The quick fix. The eat 'til it hurts diet plan. And that is why you fear being bypassed, left in the dust. And why you think you need the costuming. We are, of course, all heros. I go mano vs. mano with the Big Boys at MIT ;) You seem to be up against one nut you found on a math list somewhere. That don't pass as visionary credentials, in my book. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000
kirby urner wrote: On 9/9/06, Arthur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: kirby urner wrote: import math math.cos( 90 * math.degrees) -- that's what a first class might include. If what stops 'em isn't the Python syntax, but the trig, then we go over the trig. Basic numeracy. All as a bundle. Not your grandfathers math class (but some hoped it'd be for their kids -- remember when the future was, well, futuristic?). How you manage to tangle your sensible and salable ideas into a rhetorical jumble that makes them sound a lot more dazed, dazzling, and unsaleable they then are on their merits - confounds me. What's so unsensible about using Python as a calculator in math class for starters? That's how Guido's tutorial begins. I'm quoting the sensible part. And the part that does not belong to you, and which you are relentlessly trying to trademark. Funny how Bucky has been accused of the same thing. The surrounding grandiose rhetoric is the nonsense.. Art ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
Re: [Edu-sig] The fate of raw_input() in Python 3000
kirby urner wrote: You say I'm just pushing what'll happen by natural evolution if I just abandoned my to-your-ears arrogant tone. Just let the invisible hand do the job, so no one gets all the credit. No. I think I am saying that unless folks like you and I find some way to work together where we substantively agree - we will lose to the Big Boys at MIT. Which is no big deal ...except that the last nail is in the coffin of the American educational system. Evolutionary, in itself, and who knows, maybe for the best. But for someone trying to maintain some hope it might end up otherwise, it does seem a pity I am not shaped like a regular tetrahedron, or willing to do battle under the CP4E flag, Kirby interpretation. Close, but no cigar. Art I don't want all the credit, but I will claim a lion's share in some corners, in some niche markets where I really excel and deserve high ranking. But yes, we'll let the students decide. It's vote with your feet time. CP4E or something both dumber *and* more elitist (not a winning combo in my book). Funny how Bucky has been accused of the same thing. Yeah, by the same cast of wannabees. The surrounding grandiose rhetoric is the nonsense.. Art Is that how you lick 'em over at MIT? I'll be quiet down now. We might lose that signal-to-noise ratio of Perfect Phi, that I try to maintain. I think I've made all the points I need to make re raw_input. End of thread, as far as me needing a soap box. I thank the Crunchy Frog for introducing us to that whole terrain. Very fertile. I learned plenty. Kirby ___ Edu-sig mailing list Edu-sig@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
