Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Clay Autery]

Remote controlled tuner  

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(318) 518-1389

On 17-Dec-18 22:39, Don Wilhelm wrote:
To my mind, a matching network at the antenna feedpoint can make an 
antenna a resonant antenna as far as the feedline and transmitter are 
concerned.

But it is often a single band affair as is resonant dipoles.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/17/2018 10:45 PM, W2xj wrote:
Coming from the broadcast side, especially AM broadcasting, I never 
considered resonance particularly important. Really it’s just the 
transmitter that cares. We always put matching at the antenna but in 
ham radio we usually have tuners at or in the TX.





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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Jim Brown]

Beautifully put, Dave. I've had exactly the same experience, and I agree 
on all points.  And, by the way, as I get older, I'd far rather be doing 
my learning in NEC and SimSmith than trudging through my woods or out on 
FD or county expeditions putting up antennas that don't work well enough 
to be worth the trouble!


73, Jim K9YC

On 12/17/2018 4:52 PM, David Gilbert wrote:


I've been modeling antennas using EZNEC since back when it was ELNEC, 
and I've learned more about how antennas work using it than by any 
other means.  It is fascinating to set up some wires in the model, 
plant a source somewhere, and then look at the radiation pattern and 
current distributions.


Having been very active in Field Day over several decades and trying 
out different antennas (often more than one) each year, I would be 
willing to bet $100 that I have physically built more functioning 
antennas than you have.  Analyses paralyses my ass.


The point is that analysis and practice are not mutually exclusive, 
and anything that helps us actually understand what we do instead of 
blind trail and error is worth the time and effort it takes. Learning 
by any means is not "bad" ... it is very, very good.


Dave   AB7E



On 12/17/2018 2:22 PM, DC wrote:

Good one!


Many hams now-days  miss the most important point of all, I have 
never made a contact by computer modeling, and worrying about wire 
type and size.  Back in the day, you put something up and 
experimented from there -- making contacts along the way.  Now, folks 
look at the internet and then second guess everything they read to 
the point of information overload and analyses paralyses.


Too Bad,

Richard

K6VV



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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[W2xj]

The transmitter and feedline is all that matters. Of coarse, in broadcast only 
a single frequency needs to be matched. 

There are remotely controlled outdoor tuners for ham bands that perform the 
same or better than the typical indoor units. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 17, 2018, at 20:39, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
> 
> To my mind, a matching network at the antenna feedpoint can make an antenna a 
> resonant antenna as far as the feedline and transmitter are concerned.
> But it is often a single band affair as is resonant dipoles.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
>> On 12/17/2018 10:45 PM, W2xj wrote:
>> Coming from the broadcast side, especially AM broadcasting, I never 
>> considered resonance particularly important. Really it’s just the 
>> transmitter that cares. We always put matching at the antenna but in ham 
>> radio we usually have tuners at or in the TX.
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Don Wilhelm]

To my mind, a matching network at the antenna feedpoint can make an 
antenna a resonant antenna as far as the feedline and transmitter are 
concerned.

But it is often a single band affair as is resonant dipoles.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/17/2018 10:45 PM, W2xj wrote:

Coming from the broadcast side, especially AM broadcasting, I never considered 
resonance particularly important. Really it’s just the transmitter that cares. 
We always put matching at the antenna but in ham radio we usually have tuners 
at or in the TX.




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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[W2xj]

Coming from the broadcast side, especially AM broadcasting, I never considered 
resonance particularly important. Really it’s just the transmitter that cares. 
We always put matching at the antenna but in ham radio we usually have tuners 
at or in the TX. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 17, 2018, at 19:26, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
> 
> I am also a retired engineer, and I find that often it is quicker and easier 
> to put up an antenna cut to the "standard" formula (OK, I start a bit longer 
> than that), then check with an antenna analyzer and cut from there.  Modeling 
> is great if you can take into consideration all factors such as height, 
> ground quality, surrounding objects, etc. - but it is difficult to consider 
> all that in advance.
> 
> If your desire is to obtain the horizontal and vertical radiation patterns, 
> then modeling is the best way to do that.
> 
> If you want to cut only once, use the technique I had published in QST 
> Technical Correspondence May 2018.
> Cut the radiator to 468/F(MHz) plus 5 or 10%.
> Measure the radiator length and put it in position.   Then with your antenna 
> analyzer, measure the resonant frequency in MHz.  Now multiply the actual 
> frequency times the length to find a new "cutting factor" (will be different 
> than 468).  Divide that new 'cutting factor' by the desired resonant 
> frequency, and then trim the antenna to the new length - put it up and it 
> will work.
> 
> Remember that the resonant frequency is where the "X" component of the 
> antenna is zero - it may be the same as the lowest SWR, but not necessarily 
> so.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
>> On 12/17/2018 9:56 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>> Yes, to each his own.  As a retired engineer, I relished the day I could 
>> forego all of the planning, research, design + review cycles, quality 
>> assurance reviews, prototype testing, test reviews, program management 
>> reviews, customer reviews and feedback, and 250K miles/year on United 
>> Airlines.  I model antennas with EZNEC4, I'm old and endurance flags some 
>> before the trial antenna is up.
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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Don Wilhelm]

I am also a retired engineer, and I find that often it is quicker and 
easier to put up an antenna cut to the "standard" formula (OK, I start a 
bit longer than that), then check with an antenna analyzer and cut from 
there.  Modeling is great if you can take into consideration all factors 
such as height, ground quality, surrounding objects, etc. - but it is 
difficult to consider all that in advance.


If your desire is to obtain the horizontal and vertical radiation 
patterns, then modeling is the best way to do that.


If you want to cut only once, use the technique I had published in QST 
Technical Correspondence May 2018.

Cut the radiator to 468/F(MHz) plus 5 or 10%.
Measure the radiator length and put it in position.   Then with your 
antenna analyzer, measure the resonant frequency in MHz.  Now multiply 
the actual frequency times the length to find a new "cutting factor" 
(will be different than 468).  Divide that new 'cutting factor' by the 
desired resonant frequency, and then trim the antenna to the new length 
- put it up and it will work.


Remember that the resonant frequency is where the "X" component of the 
antenna is zero - it may be the same as the lowest SWR, but not 
necessarily so.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/17/2018 9:56 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
Yes, to each his own.  As a retired engineer, I relished the day I could 
forego all of the planning, research, design + review cycles, quality 
assurance reviews, prototype testing, test reviews, program management 
reviews, customer reviews and feedback, and 250K miles/year on United 
Airlines.  I model antennas with EZNEC4, I'm old and endurance flags 
some before the trial antenna is up.

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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Internal Batteries

[Fred Jensen]

I follow the dictum, "Never put anything with 'Li' in its name inside 
the radio."  I've always charged all of them outside, even though 
LiFePO4 are pretty stable.  Had an LiPoly RC battert burst into flames 
once while on the deck in the Spartan Sprint with the KX1.  It was on a 
pigtail, I flung it down onto the gravel driveway, wife said as it 
snapped, crackled, and popped, "Should we get the hose?".  I replied, 
"Ummm ...no."


73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 12/17/2018 7:08 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
I would not recommend any method of charging Li-Ion batteries in the 
KX2 or any other radio.  Remember the reports of "flaming" cell phones!


73,
Don W3FPR



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Re: [Elecraft] KX3 Internal Batteries

[Don Wilhelm]

Scott,

The KX2 will not produce its full 12 watt output with the internal 
battery pack - expect a maximum of 10 watts, but if battery life is a 
consideration, use 5 watts output.


You can always use an external power supply or battery pack of up to 15 
volts to provide full 12 watts output.


I would not recommend any method of charging Li-Ion batteries in the KX2 
or any other radio.  Remember the reports of "flaming" cell phones!


73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/17/2018 9:41 PM, K9MA wrote:
I don't own a KX3, but it appears the internal batteries are a 
limitation. By contrast, the KX2, which I do own, uses an 11 V internal 
Li-Ion (Li-FePO, I believe) battery, and is designed to provide full 
output at that voltage. (The KX3 requires at least 12 V.) One 
possibility for the KX3 would be to do as I did for my old KX1, which 
was to replace the internal batteries with four AA Li-Ion cells, plus a 
low dropout linear regulator to limit the voltage to 15 V. The batteries 
would have to be removed to be recharged, and a second set would be 
required for longer operation.

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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Fred Jensen]

Yes, to each his own.  As a retired engineer, I relished the day I could 
forego all of the planning, research, design + review cycles, quality 
assurance reviews, prototype testing, test reviews, program management 
reviews, customer reviews and feedback, and 250K miles/year on United 
Airlines.  I model antennas with EZNEC4, I'm old and endurance flags 
some before the trial antenna is up.


73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 12/17/2018 2:43 PM, W2xj wrote:

Remember this IS a hobby and to each their own. As an engineer, I do model and 
design what I use. I hate the “by guess and by golly” approach. Everything I do 
is carefully planned in advance and is a part of my enjoyment of the hobby but 
YMMV.

Sent from my iPad



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Re: [Elecraft] K2 Power Control Question

[Clark Macaulay]

A..

Thanks.  Forgot about the interaction of the ATU bridge and the Power
Control setting.

Measured R of MFJ unit = 57 Ohms.  Yuk.  Replaced it with my NORCAL load
which measured 49.5 ohms.  Now the LP100A shows SWR = 1.02.  Will
re-balance the bridge and report back.

BTW:  don't you ever sleep?

On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 9:27 PM Don Wilhelm  wrote:

> Clark,
>
> The "secret" is to properly balance and calibrate the KAT2 wattmeter.
>
> If you do the balance with a dummy load that is truly a 50 ohm resistive
> load ( a 1.13 SWR just does not "cut it"), then adjust the forward KAT2
> pot to give you the same K2 display as indicated by the LP-100, your
> power should track nicely.
>
> Your K2 power output does depend on the correct calibration of the KAT2
> wattmeter.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 12/17/2018 9:03 PM, engineercm wrote:
> > I'm becoming more active in QRP contesting and need to make sure that my
> > power is <5W.  I thought I was aligned ok until I put my LP100A into the
> > shack (what a wonderful instrument).  When Power Control = 5.0, the
> LP100A =
> > 3.0.  Now, I want to be below 5.0, but not that low!  To reach LP100A =
> 5,
> > Power Control must be set at 7.5 (40m) and 8.5 (20m).  This is with the
> ATU
> > = Cal(P), which removes the matching circuits.  The dummy load is a
> MFJ-264;
> > the LP100A SWR = 1.13.
> >
>


-- 
72,

Clark, WU4B
QRPARCI #10815
SKCC #3892
NAQCC #5055
CWOPS #1869
Collins Collectors #AC90-12432
Southeastern DX Club 
North Georgia QRP Club 


*"It is vain to do with more what can be done with less."*
*Attributed to *William of Occam (1288 AD - 1348 AD)
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[Elecraft] KX3 Internal Batteries

[K9MA]

I don't own a KX3, but it appears the internal batteries are a 
limitation. By contrast, the KX2, which I do own, uses an 11 V internal 
Li-Ion (Li-FePO, I believe) battery, and is designed to provide full 
output at that voltage. (The KX3 requires at least 12 V.) One 
possibility for the KX3 would be to do as I did for my old KX1, which 
was to replace the internal batteries with four AA Li-Ion cells, plus a 
low dropout linear regulator to limit the voltage to 15 V. The batteries 
would have to be removed to be recharged, and a second set would be 
required for longer operation. The scheme works well with the KX1, and I 
can't think of any reason it wouldn't work with the KX3. Obviously, an 
external battery pack of 4 larger cells could be used the same way. Of 
course, the usual safety precautions must be taken, as with any Li-Ion 
batteries, and there could be warranty issues.


That said, I expect KX3 owners would appreciate it if Elecraft offered 
an internal Li-Ion battery for the KX3.


73,

Scott K9MA

--
Scott  K9MA

k...@sdellington.us

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Re: [Elecraft] K2 Power Control Question

[Don Wilhelm]

Clark,

The "secret" is to properly balance and calibrate the KAT2 wattmeter.

If you do the balance with a dummy load that is truly a 50 ohm resistive 
load ( a 1.13 SWR just does not "cut it"), then adjust the forward KAT2 
pot to give you the same K2 display as indicated by the LP-100, your 
power should track nicely.


Your K2 power output does depend on the correct calibration of the KAT2 
wattmeter.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/17/2018 9:03 PM, engineercm wrote:

I'm becoming more active in QRP contesting and need to make sure that my
power is <5W.  I thought I was aligned ok until I put my LP100A into the
shack (what a wonderful instrument).  When Power Control = 5.0, the LP100A =
3.0.  Now, I want to be below 5.0, but not that low!  To reach LP100A = 5,
Power Control must be set at 7.5 (40m) and 8.5 (20m).  This is with the ATU
= Cal(P), which removes the matching circuits.  The dummy load is a MFJ-264;
the LP100A SWR = 1.13.


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[Elecraft] K2 Power Control Question

[engineercm]

I'm becoming more active in QRP contesting and need to make sure that my
power is <5W.  I thought I was aligned ok until I put my LP100A into the
shack (what a wonderful instrument).  When Power Control = 5.0, the LP100A =
3.0.  Now, I want to be below 5.0, but not that low!  To reach LP100A = 5,
Power Control must be set at 7.5 (40m) and 8.5 (20m).  This is with the ATU
= Cal(P), which removes the matching circuits.  The dummy load is a MFJ-264;
the LP100A SWR = 1.13.

I'm okay with cranking Power Control to 8 to get 5w, but would prefer to
have the setting be closer to the acutal power out.  I've searched the
archives and can't find a similar problem.  I looks like there is a
component problem in the Power Control circuitry, but I'm not sure how to
find it.

I know there are lots of K2 owners out there and hope someone can provide
suggestions as to where to start. 

72,

Clark WU4B
K2 #6011



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Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[David Gilbert]

I've been modeling antennas using EZNEC since back when it was ELNEC, 
and I've learned more about how antennas work using it than by any other 
means.  It is fascinating to set up some wires in the model, plant a 
source somewhere, and then look at the radiation pattern and current 
distributions.


Having been very active in Field Day over several decades and trying out 
different antennas (often more than one) each year, I would be willing 
to bet $100 that I have physically built more functioning antennas than 
you have.  Analyses paralyses my ass.


The point is that analysis and practice are not mutually exclusive, and 
anything that helps us actually understand what we do instead of blind 
trail and error is worth the time and effort it takes. Learning by any 
means is not "bad" ... it is very, very good.


Dave   AB7E



On 12/17/2018 2:22 PM, DC wrote:

Good one!


Many hams now-days  miss the most important point of all, I have never 
made a contact by computer modeling, and worrying about wire type and 
size.  Back in the day, you put something up and experimented from 
there -- making contacts along the way.  Now, folks look at the 
internet and then second guess everything they read to the point of 
information overload and analyses paralyses.


Too Bad,

Richard

K6VV



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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Walter Underwood]

> On Dec 17, 2018, at 1:22 PM, DC  wrote:
> 
> Many hams now-days  miss the most important point of all, I have never made a 
> contact by computer modeling, and worrying about wire type and size.

But how many contacts have been missed because people didn’t do computer 
modeling or worry about wire?

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[riese-k3djc]

wow I am so embarised


Bob K3DJC
On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 17:25:10 -0500 Don Wilhelm 
writes:
> Does this mean that the electrons just will not stop?
> I brake my car when I need to stop it.
> I fix it when it it breaks.
> 
> If I pull on the wire enough, it certainly will break.
> 
> Proper spelling equals meaningful words - the English language is 
> complicated, but I thought we learned many of the spelling 
> differences 
> in grade 6 - here vs. hear, there vs. their, etc. even though they 
> sound 
> the same.
> It seems that texting and "OMG", "LOL" and such have devalued our 
> use of 
> good language and spelling skills.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
> On 12/17/2018 4:24 PM, riese-k3...@juno.com wrote:
> > if you can find telephone house service wire,,, is copper clad 
> and
> > impossible to brake
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[W2xj]

Remember this IS a hobby and to each their own. As an engineer, I do model and 
design what I use. I hate the “by guess and by golly” approach. Everything I do 
is carefully planned in advance and is a part of my enjoyment of the hobby but 
YMMV. 

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 17, 2018, at 1:22 PM, DC  wrote:
> 
> Good one!
> 
> 
> Many hams now-days  miss the most important point of all, I have never made a 
> contact by computer modeling, and worrying about wire type and size.  Back in 
> the day, you put something up and experimented from there -- making contacts 
> along the way.  Now, folks look at the internet and then second guess 
> everything they read to the point of information overload and analyses 
> paralyses.
> 
> Too Bad,
> 
> Richard
> 
> K6VV
> 
> 
>> On 12/17/2018 7:09 AM, Charlie T wrote:
>> Yes, but speaker wire is only good for audio up to about 25 kHz.  It has a
>> frequency limiting component in the wire alloy that must be removed in order
>> to use this type wire at RF.
>> 
>> This removal procedure is fairly easy to accomplish.  First, soak the wire
>> in a bucket of laundry detergent and water over night, then remove the wire
>> and rinse it thoroughly.
>> After assuring the wire is dry, place in an oven set to about 150 degrees
>> for about 3 - 4 hours.
>> In lieu of the oven, you can also place the wire in an afternoon of summer
>> sun.
>> After that, place the wire on the ground and hold a 2 meter hand-held over
>> the wire, approximately a foot away and key up the radio for 20 seconds at a
>> couple watts output.
>> If you see no reaction, sparking, especially tingling in your ears,  or
>> physical movement of the wire, it is now safe to use as an antenna.
>> 
>> Note this advice is given freely and may be disseminated with no intended
>> royalty charges or copyright infringements.
>> 
>> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On
>> Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
>> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 9:46 AM
>> To: Richard watson ; elecraft
>> 
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3
>> 
>> Rick,
>> 
>> Certainly it will work, and makes for a quick temporary antenna,
>> particularly indoors.
>> However, if you are using the speaker wire as a transmission line, it has
>> relatively high loss characteristics, and I would recommend that you think
>> about replacing the transmission line part with real parallel transmission
>> line for a more permanent installation.
>> 
>> For the radiator section, the speaker wire can remain.
>> 
>> 73,
>> Do

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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Don Wilhelm]

Does this mean that the electrons just will not stop?
I brake my car when I need to stop it.
I fix it when it it breaks.

If I pull on the wire enough, it certainly will break.

Proper spelling equals meaningful words - the English language is 
complicated, but I thought we learned many of the spelling differences 
in grade 6 - here vs. hear, there vs. their, etc. even though they sound 
the same.
It seems that texting and "OMG", "LOL" and such have devalued our use of 
good language and spelling skills.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/17/2018 4:24 PM, riese-k3...@juno.com wrote:

if you can find telephone house service wire,,, is copper clad and
impossible to brake

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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[John Oppenheimer]

On 12/17/18 3:11 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> This overly simplified equation fails to account for proximity effe
Proximity effect will effect impedance, which will then effect the loss.

The wire loss equation is dependent on the TL Zo. The previous example
was for Zo=100. Using Zo=75, wire loss for #12 is 0.47 dB/100. For the
Teflon, that would leave 0.47 dB for dielectric loss. This is sounding
closer.

John KN5L

> On 12/17/2018 12:58 PM, John Oppenheimer wrote:
>> On 12/17/18 1:58 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
>>> In order of loss at dB/100 ft at 10 MHz from low to high, the
>>> Teflon #12 is lowest at 0.94dB, then RG400 at 1.22 dB (about the same as
>>> RG58), then #12 THHN at 1.34 dB. #12 or #10 enameled copper had the
>>> greatest loss, 2.4 dB/100 ft.
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> Two parallel transmission line is the easiest of all to evaluate using a
>> RF resistance table and knowing the impedance of the line.
>> http://ve3efc.ca/wireohms.htm
>>
>> The wire loss is dB = 10 * log10((Zo + WireR)/Zo)
>>
>> Assuming Zo=100 for the #12 Teflon and THHN. R at 10 MHz = 4.24/100 =
>> 8.48/200.
>>
>> Wire dB = 10 * log10(108.48 / 100) = 0.35 dB
>>
>> Using the two values above at 10 MHz, 0.94 and 1.34, the dielectric loss
>> is 0.59 dB and 1 dB. The dielectric loss is about two and three times
>> the wire loss.
>>
>> John KN5L
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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[riese-k3djc]

if you can find telephone house service wire,,, is copper clad and
impossible to brake


Bob K3DJC


On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 09:04:04 -0900 Edward R Cole 
writes:
> I see the humour genes is alive and well in some hams!
> 
> But seriously plastic coated wire will work on HF antennas, though 
> you may see a slight lenthening of resonant length vs bare wire.
> 
> My 80m/40m fan inverted-V is made of coated copper-weld and I just 
> tuned it using my MFJ-269B antenna analyzer.  My 43 by 122-foot 
> inverted-L (630m band) is also the same copper-weld steel.  It uses 
> a 
> huge base coil that set the tap for resonance.  Z = 20 +0j  It warms 
> 
> worms well in the winter with 100w input and 4w EIRP.
> 
> Years ago I made a light-weight 80m dipole using 18ga speaker 
> wire.  Worked Anchorage over 500 mi with 100w from a checkpoint on 
> the Iditarod Sled Dog race.
> 
> 73, Ed - KL7UW
>http://www.kl7uw.com
> Dubus-NA Business mail:
>dubus...@gmail.com 
> 
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[riese-k3djc]

if you can find telephone house service wire,,, is copper clad and
impossible to brake
makes good antenna,, not for use as feeders though

Bob K3DJC
> 
> 
> On Mon, 17 Dec 2018 09:04:04 -0900 Edward R Cole 
>  writes:
> > I see the humour genes is alive and well in some hams!
> > 
> > But seriously plastic coated wire will work on HF antennas, though 
> 
> > you may see a slight lenthening of resonant length vs bare wire.
> > 
> > My 80m/40m fan inverted-V is made of coated copper-weld and I just 
> 
> > tuned it using my MFJ-269B antenna analyzer.  My 43 by 122-foot 
> > inverted-L (630m band) is also the same copper-weld steel.  It 
> uses 
> > a 
> > huge base coil that set the tap for resonance.  Z = 20 +0j  It 
> warms 
> > 
> > worms well in the winter with 100w input and 4w EIRP.
> > 
> > Years ago I made a light-weight 80m dipole using 18ga speaker 
> > wire.  Worked Anchorage over 500 mi with 100w from a checkpoint on 
> 
> > the Iditarod Sled Dog race.
> > 
> > 73, Ed - KL7UW
> >http://www.kl7uw.com
> > Dubus-NA Business mail:
> >dubus...@gmail.com 
> > 
> > __
> > Elecraft mailing list
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> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> > 
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: 
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to riese-k3...@juno.com
> > 

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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[DC]

Good one!


Many hams now-days  miss the most important point of all, I have never 
made a contact by computer modeling, and worrying about wire type and 
size.  Back in the day, you put something up and experimented from there 
-- making contacts along the way.  Now, folks look at the internet and 
then second guess everything they read to the point of information 
overload and analyses paralyses.


Too Bad,

Richard

K6VV


On 12/17/2018 7:09 AM, Charlie T wrote:

Yes, but speaker wire is only good for audio up to about 25 kHz.  It has a
frequency limiting component in the wire alloy that must be removed in order
to use this type wire at RF.

This removal procedure is fairly easy to accomplish.  First, soak the wire
in a bucket of laundry detergent and water over night, then remove the wire
and rinse it thoroughly.
After assuring the wire is dry, place in an oven set to about 150 degrees
for about 3 - 4 hours.
In lieu of the oven, you can also place the wire in an afternoon of summer
sun.
After that, place the wire on the ground and hold a 2 meter hand-held over
the wire, approximately a foot away and key up the radio for 20 seconds at a
couple watts output.
If you see no reaction, sparking, especially tingling in your ears,  or
physical movement of the wire, it is now safe to use as an antenna.

Note this advice is given freely and may be disseminated with no intended
royalty charges or copyright infringements.

73, Charlie k3ICH



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On
Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 9:46 AM
To: Richard watson ; elecraft

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

Rick,

Certainly it will work, and makes for a quick temporary antenna,
particularly indoors.
However, if you are using the speaker wire as a transmission line, it has
relatively high loss characteristics, and I would recommend that you think
about replacing the transmission line part with real parallel transmission
line for a more permanent installation.

For the radiator section, the speaker wire can remain.

73,
Don W3FPR



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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Jim Brown]

This overly simplified equation fails to account for proximity effect.

On 12/17/2018 12:58 PM, John Oppenheimer wrote:

On 12/17/18 1:58 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

In order of loss at dB/100 ft at 10 MHz from low to high, the
Teflon #12 is lowest at 0.94dB, then RG400 at 1.22 dB (about the same as
RG58), then #12 THHN at 1.34 dB. #12 or #10 enameled copper had the
greatest loss, 2.4 dB/100 ft.

Hi Jim,

Two parallel transmission line is the easiest of all to evaluate using a
RF resistance table and knowing the impedance of the line.
http://ve3efc.ca/wireohms.htm

The wire loss is dB = 10 * log10((Zo + WireR)/Zo)

Assuming Zo=100 for the #12 Teflon and THHN. R at 10 MHz = 4.24/100 =
8.48/200.

Wire dB = 10 * log10(108.48 / 100) = 0.35 dB

Using the two values above at 10 MHz, 0.94 and 1.34, the dielectric loss
is 0.59 dB and 1 dB. The dielectric loss is about two and three times
the wire loss.

John KN5L
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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[John Oppenheimer]

On 12/17/18 1:58 PM, Jim Brown wrote:
> In order of loss at dB/100 ft at 10 MHz from low to high, the 
> Teflon #12 is lowest at 0.94dB, then RG400 at 1.22 dB (about the same as 
> RG58), then #12 THHN at 1.34 dB. #12 or #10 enameled copper had the 
> greatest loss, 2.4 dB/100 ft.

Hi Jim,

Two parallel transmission line is the easiest of all to evaluate using a
RF resistance table and knowing the impedance of the line.
http://ve3efc.ca/wireohms.htm

The wire loss is dB = 10 * log10((Zo + WireR)/Zo)

Assuming Zo=100 for the #12 Teflon and THHN. R at 10 MHz = 4.24/100 =
8.48/200.

Wire dB = 10 * log10(108.48 / 100) = 0.35 dB

Using the two values above at 10 MHz, 0.94 and 1.34, the dielectric loss
is 0.59 dB and 1 dB. The dielectric loss is about two and three times
the wire loss.

John KN5L
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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Bob Nielsen, N7XY]

I miss good old WIOU.  He had some technical insights which were unique, 
to say the least.


Bob, N7XY

On 12/17/18 11:03 AM, Fred Jensen wrote:

Larson E. Rapp is using an alias now?

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 12/17/2018 7:09 AM, Charlie T wrote:
Yes, but speaker wire is only good for audio up to about 25 kHz.  It 
has a
frequency limiting component in the wire alloy that must be removed 
in order

to use this type wire at RF.

This removal procedure is fairly easy to accomplish.  First, soak the 
wire
in a bucket of laundry detergent and water over night, then remove 
the wire

and rinse it thoroughly.
After assuring the wire is dry, place in an oven set to about 150 
degrees

for about 3 - 4 hours.
In lieu of the oven, you can also place the wire in an afternoon of 
summer

sun.
After that, place the wire on the ground and hold a 2 meter hand-held 
over
the wire, approximately a foot away and key up the radio for 20 
seconds at a

couple watts output.
If you see no reaction, sparking, especially tingling in your ears,  or
physical movement of the wire, it is now safe to use as an antenna.

Note this advice is given freely and may be disseminated with no 
intended

royalty charges or copyright infringements.

73, Charlie k3ICH



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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

I didn't think from the original post that this was going to be used as 
transmission line.


I pictured simply tying both sides of the speaker wire to one terminal 
on the UN-UN.


Speaker wire because he has it, vs. buying wire specifically for a 
temporary antenna.


"Random wire" so the 9:1 transformer is needed if it's close to a 
resonant length and he's feeding the end, maybe not if the wire is some 
non-resonant length, like 53 feet or so.


73 -- Lynn

On 12/17/2018 11:58 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 12/17/2018 6:45 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
However, if you are using the speaker wire as a transmission line, it 
has relatively high loss characteristics


Compared to what?  So-called speaker wire (which is really lousy for 
speakers because it should be twisted pair to minimize RFI) has Zo in 
the range of 75-100 ohms. Unless it's wet, virtually all the loss in 
transmission lines below about 100 MHz is due to wire resistance, not 
dielectric loss. There is, of course, additional loss due to any 
mismatch that may be present, but that still comes down to loss in the 
resistance of the line. While I haven't measured any zip cord, I've 
measured a lot of closely spaced parallel wire transmission line made 
from THHN, enameled copper, and Teflon insulated #12 silver-coated 
copper. In order of loss at dB/100 ft at 10 MHz from low to high, the 
Teflon #12 is lowest at 0.94dB, then RG400 at 1.22 dB (about the same as 
RG58), then #12 THHN at 1.34 dB. #12 or #10 enameled copper had the 
greatest loss, 2.4 dB/100 ft.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Jim Brown]

On 12/17/2018 6:45 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
However, if you are using the speaker wire as a transmission line, it 
has relatively high loss characteristics


Compared to what?  So-called speaker wire (which is really lousy for 
speakers because it should be twisted pair to minimize RFI) has Zo in 
the range of 75-100 ohms. Unless it's wet, virtually all the loss in 
transmission lines below about 100 MHz is due to wire resistance, not 
dielectric loss. There is, of course, additional loss due to any 
mismatch that may be present, but that still comes down to loss in the 
resistance of the line. While I haven't measured any zip cord, I've 
measured a lot of closely spaced parallel wire transmission line made 
from THHN, enameled copper, and Teflon insulated #12 silver-coated 
copper. In order of loss at dB/100 ft at 10 MHz from low to high, the 
Teflon #12 is lowest at 0.94dB, then RG400 at 1.22 dB (about the same as 
RG58), then #12 THHN at 1.34 dB. #12 or #10 enameled copper had the 
greatest loss, 2.4 dB/100 ft.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Fred Jensen]

Larson E. Rapp is using an alias now?

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 12/17/2018 7:09 AM, Charlie T wrote:

Yes, but speaker wire is only good for audio up to about 25 kHz.  It has a
frequency limiting component in the wire alloy that must be removed in order
to use this type wire at RF.

This removal procedure is fairly easy to accomplish.  First, soak the wire
in a bucket of laundry detergent and water over night, then remove the wire
and rinse it thoroughly.
After assuring the wire is dry, place in an oven set to about 150 degrees
for about 3 - 4 hours.
In lieu of the oven, you can also place the wire in an afternoon of summer
sun.
After that, place the wire on the ground and hold a 2 meter hand-held over
the wire, approximately a foot away and key up the radio for 20 seconds at a
couple watts output.
If you see no reaction, sparking, especially tingling in your ears,  or
physical movement of the wire, it is now safe to use as an antenna.

Note this advice is given freely and may be disseminated with no intended
royalty charges or copyright infringements.

73, Charlie k3ICH



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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Edward R Cole]

I see the humour genes is alive and well in some hams!

But seriously plastic coated wire will work on HF antennas, though 
you may see a slight lenthening of resonant length vs bare wire.


My 80m/40m fan inverted-V is made of coated copper-weld and I just 
tuned it using my MFJ-269B antenna analyzer.  My 43 by 122-foot 
inverted-L (630m band) is also the same copper-weld steel.  It uses a 
huge base coil that set the tap for resonance.  Z = 20 +0j  It warms 
worms well in the winter with 100w input and 4w EIRP.


Years ago I made a light-weight 80m dipole using 18ga speaker 
wire.  Worked Anchorage over 500 mi with 100w from a checkpoint on 
the Iditarod Sled Dog race.


73, Ed - KL7UW
  http://www.kl7uw.com
Dubus-NA Business mail:
  dubus...@gmail.com 


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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

Be sure the wire is LCOF copper.  The electrons are reported to move 
faster and with less resistance in that medium.  This makes your signal 
get to the DX station faster than anyone else .     HA HA HA


Seriously folks,   to evaluate the insulation on the zip cord or speaker 
wire, my method is to strip off about 6" of the insulation.  Be sure 
there's no copper left inside.  Then put the insulation in the microwave 
along with a cup of water for a microwave load.  Heat for about 30 
seconds.    If the insulation is hot, it is not good for RF 
properties.   If the insulation is cool, it is OK for RF. I would 
suspect that color may have different results.   Try clear, brown, 
white, black to see if there is any difference.


If the insulation meltsclean the microwave before the XYL 
discovers the mess.


I find that #16 to #18 zip cord, is nominally about 75 ohms Z and in my 
portable operation I work with 100 watts without any known issues.


73

Bob, K4TAX



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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[KENT TRIMBLE]

April came fast!

K9ZTV



On 12/17/2018 9:28 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha!
Where can we find that information?  Website please.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/17/2018 10:09 AM, Charlie T wrote:
Yes, but speaker wire is only good for audio up to about 25 kHz.  It 
has a
frequency limiting component in the wire alloy that must be removed 
in order

to use this type wire at RF.

This removal procedure is fairly easy to accomplish.  First, soak the 
wire
in a bucket of laundry detergent and water over night, then remove 
the wire

and rinse it thoroughly.
After assuring the wire is dry, place in an oven set to about 150 
degrees

for about 3 - 4 hours.
In lieu of the oven, you can also place the wire in an afternoon of 
summer

sun.
After that, place the wire on the ground and hold a 2 meter hand-held 
over
the wire, approximately a foot away and key up the radio for 20 
seconds at a

couple watts output.
If you see no reaction, sparking, especially tingling in your ears,  or
physical movement of the wire, it is now safe to use as an antenna.

Note this advice is given freely and may be disseminated with no 
intended

royalty charges or copyright infringements.

73, Charlie k3ICH


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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Don Wilhelm]

Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha!
Where can we find that information?  Website please.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/17/2018 10:09 AM, Charlie T wrote:

Yes, but speaker wire is only good for audio up to about 25 kHz.  It has a
frequency limiting component in the wire alloy that must be removed in order
to use this type wire at RF.

This removal procedure is fairly easy to accomplish.  First, soak the wire
in a bucket of laundry detergent and water over night, then remove the wire
and rinse it thoroughly.
After assuring the wire is dry, place in an oven set to about 150 degrees
for about 3 - 4 hours.
In lieu of the oven, you can also place the wire in an afternoon of summer
sun.
After that, place the wire on the ground and hold a 2 meter hand-held over
the wire, approximately a foot away and key up the radio for 20 seconds at a
couple watts output.
If you see no reaction, sparking, especially tingling in your ears,  or
physical movement of the wire, it is now safe to use as an antenna.

Note this advice is given freely and may be disseminated with no intended
royalty charges or copyright infringements.

73, Charlie k3ICH


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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Charlie T]

Yes, but speaker wire is only good for audio up to about 25 kHz.  It has a
frequency limiting component in the wire alloy that must be removed in order
to use this type wire at RF.

This removal procedure is fairly easy to accomplish.  First, soak the wire
in a bucket of laundry detergent and water over night, then remove the wire
and rinse it thoroughly.
After assuring the wire is dry, place in an oven set to about 150 degrees
for about 3 - 4 hours.
In lieu of the oven, you can also place the wire in an afternoon of summer
sun.
After that, place the wire on the ground and hold a 2 meter hand-held over
the wire, approximately a foot away and key up the radio for 20 seconds at a
couple watts output.
If you see no reaction, sparking, especially tingling in your ears,  or
physical movement of the wire, it is now safe to use as an antenna.

Note this advice is given freely and may be disseminated with no intended
royalty charges or copyright infringements.

73, Charlie k3ICH



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On
Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 9:46 AM
To: Richard watson ; elecraft

Subject: Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

Rick,

Certainly it will work, and makes for a quick temporary antenna,
particularly indoors.
However, if you are using the speaker wire as a transmission line, it has
relatively high loss characteristics, and I would recommend that you think
about replacing the transmission line part with real parallel transmission
line for a more permanent installation.

For the radiator section, the speaker wire can remain.

73,
Don W3FPR



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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Don Wilhelm]

Rick,

Certainly it will work, and makes for a quick temporary antenna, 
particularly indoors.
However, if you are using the speaker wire as a transmission line, it 
has relatively high loss characteristics, and I would recommend that you 
think about replacing the transmission line part with real parallel 
transmission line for a more permanent installation.


For the radiator section, the speaker wire can remain.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/17/2018 8:10 AM, Richard watson wrote:

Good morning list,
I was wondering what folks thought about using speaker wire for a
quick indoor antenna for my kx3.
I've got one of those nelson antennas 9:1 unun and the tuner in the
kx3. Do I need heavier wire and would that make a difference?
thanks and 73 - rick n3gms

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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[John Flynn]

Hi Rick,

I don't think so. I use speaker wire with my EARCHI antenna--maybe 18-20
gauge-- 25' of coax, 9:1 un-un, and it works just fine. Also a KX3.

73,

John K4ARQ

On Mon, Dec 17, 2018, 08:12 Richard watson  Good morning list,
> I was wondering what folks thought about using speaker wire for a
> quick indoor antenna for my kx3.
> I've got one of those nelson antennas 9:1 unun and the tuner in the
> kx3. Do I need heavier wire and would that make a difference?
> thanks and 73 - rick n3gms
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> Elecraft mailing list
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Re: [Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[David Bunte]

Rick -

I think speaker wire would work just fine. Up to a point, wire is wire. I
used some #18 insulated wire, with a 9:1 un-un and a KX3 while visiting in
Florida several years ago. I ran the wire between two trees, as high as I
could get it, and the tuner in the KX3 matched it on 160 through 10 meters.
It was temporary, as I was down there for only 3 weeks, but I had a ball,
and was amazed at how well it worked, all around the globe.

73 es gl de Dave - K9FN

On Mon, Dec 17, 2018 at 8:11 AM Richard watson <
richard.watson15...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Good morning list,
> I was wondering what folks thought about using speaker wire for a
> quick indoor antenna for my kx3.
> I've got one of those nelson antennas 9:1 unun and the tuner in the
> kx3. Do I need heavier wire and would that make a difference?
> thanks and 73 - rick n3gms
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
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> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to dpbu...@gmail.com
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[Elecraft] wire for random wire antenna using kx3

[Richard watson]

Good morning list,
I was wondering what folks thought about using speaker wire for a
quick indoor antenna for my kx3.
I've got one of those nelson antennas 9:1 unun and the tuner in the
kx3. Do I need heavier wire and would that make a difference?
thanks and 73 - rick n3gms
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[Elecraft] KAT500 Won't Switch Antennas

[Paul Ecker]

Problem solved with the help of Dick, K6KR. I am ruining my KAT/KPA with a
Flex 6600 and the KAT was not receiving the correct band status
information. So KAT was following its config file and not switching to an
antenna I thought it should because KAT was on the wrong band. Also my KAT
Utility was far out of date.

73 Paul w2eck
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