Re: [Elecraft] 43 ft vertical
> I collapse it down to 33ft6in. Why bother? Insert an 8' piece of fiberglass tubing in the top ... now you have a 50' +/- support. Install two 8' pieces of PVC or fiberglass tubing in a horizontal cross at 30 to 35'. On one, run your 80 meter wire - tie it back to the tip of the antenna and run any remainder horizontally (or bend it back down to the opposite spreader). On another, run your 33' piece of wire - tie it to the spreader. On the third, run your 17.5 foot wire - tie to the spreader. On the fourth, run your 160 or a 30 meter wire. Even better - since we're talking about compromise antennas ... dig out information on coaxial traps. Put a 30 meter trap in the 80 meter wire, put a 15 meter trap in the 40 meter wire (reduce the wasted high angle radiation), put a 17 meter trap in the 160 meter wire, and put a 10 meter trap in the 20 meter wire. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 8/5/2016 8:50 AM, Morgan Bailey wrote: I personally love the idea of a 43 foot vertical. I use the Dx Engineering Thunderbolt for 60 meters, it is 1.5 inches at the top. I collapse it down to 33ft6in. Gives a fully resonant antenna on 40. Add a 17.5 foot wire with outrigger (pvc supported on vert by hose clamp) and now you have 20meters. Next run a wire with another set of out riggers up to the top and out 33 feet and you have 80 meters. Next wind 132 turns 18ga wire on 1.5in pvc and add to the 80 wire end then add about 15 feet of wire and you have 160. What you have when you get done is: 160 meter inverted L with a bit of compromise. but still workable on a city lot. 80 meter inverted L no compromise with full size. 40 meter 1/4 wave full sized vertical 20 meter 1/4 wave full sized vertical 15 meter fully loads on 40 10 loads on 80 It works well for me. I live on a city lot and it plays great. I use a receiving array for 80 and 160 with phasing and preamps. NCC1 Dx engineering system. Most 42 foot /43 foot verticals require 150 feet of coax to balance out the loss/swr to hook you in to thinking that you have a great antenna. But most any antenna is better than no antenna. And, if all you have is a 43 foot vertical, use it. Enjoy it. There is a qrp op on CWOPS that all he has is a 43 ft vertical. He does great with it but also he can walk out his back door and pee in the ocean, so that is really not a fair comparison due to the salt water and the magic it gives. Vy 73, Morgan NJ8M __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to li...@subich.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
[Elecraft] 43 ft vertical
I personally love the idea of a 43 foot vertical. I use the Dx Engineering Thunderbolt for 60 meters, it is 1.5 inches at the top. I collapse it down to 33ft6in. Gives a fully resonant antenna on 40. Add a 17.5 foot wire with outrigger (pvc supported on vert by hose clamp) and now you have 20meters. Next run a wire with another set of out riggers up to the top and out 33 feet and you have 80 meters. Next wind 132 turns 18ga wire on 1.5in pvc and add to the 80 wire end then add about 15 feet of wire and you have 160. What you have when you get done is: 160 meter inverted L with a bit of compromise. but still workable on a city lot. 80 meter inverted L no compromise with full size. 40 meter 1/4 wave full sized vertical 20 meter 1/4 wave full sized vertical 15 meter fully loads on 40 10 loads on 80 It works well for me. I live on a city lot and it plays great. I use a receiving array for 80 and 160 with phasing and preamps. NCC1 Dx engineering system. Most 42 foot /43 foot verticals require 150 feet of coax to balance out the loss/swr to hook you in to thinking that you have a great antenna. But most any antenna is better than no antenna. And, if all you have is a 43 foot vertical, use it. Enjoy it. There is a qrp op on CWOPS that all he has is a 43 ft vertical. He does great with it but also he can walk out his back door and pee in the ocean, so that is really not a fair comparison due to the salt water and the magic it gives. Vy 73, Morgan NJ8M __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
I have modeled this too on my old K6sti software ... need to get a windows replacement. Make that a horizontal 20 DEZ (86') and not only is that antenna lots of fun on 20 but it is lots of fun on 10 with a very nice cloverleaf pattern (can't remember the gain). -- From: Ron D'Eau Claire r...@cobi.biz Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 5:28 PM To: 'Reflector Elecraft' elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners An interesting point I noticed modeling a 43 foot vertical was that, while on 10 meters the main lobe is up around 50 degrees, the gain at low angles is similar to a 1/4 wave ground plane antenna cut for 10 meters. That's because the longer antenna has significant gain over a 1/4 wave antenna so the amount of radiation down at the lower angles is about the same as a 1/4 wave. That's for a ground mounted 1/4 wave on 10 meters. Ideally you want to raise the 10 meter vertical at least 1/2 wavelength - roughly 16 feet - then you get much better low angle radiation from the 1/4 wave because the ground absorbs much less of the lowest angle radiation. Installed that way, the 1/4 wave shines over the 43 footer. Also, of course, there is less interference with the signal by foliage, buildings, etc. That's why so-called vertical ground plane antennas are so popular on the higher HF bands. 73, Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Definitely a loaded question. No pun intended. I don't have any experience with 43 ft verticals myself but have heard a lot about them and have been thinking about building one. I too would like to learn more. Matt Moller KG6KSL K3 #3496 On 9/2/2013 4:10 PM, Jim Brown wrote: 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require a serious tuner to get them to load. I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that is, no baluns, transformers, loading coils, or additional matching networks. I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like to know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in the shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner. Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
most people I have heard running a 23 or 32 ot 43 foot vertical all use a 4:1 and a 1:1 inline... I hvae also been reading articals where a 5.1 rf coil is used. -- R.Neese KB3VGW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Dave WX7G wrote an article that may be of interest: www.eham.net/articles/21272 I also have some info in the “Presentations” section of my website at www.ad5x.com. As Jim says, if you use good quality coax over reasonable distances (I use 1/2” heliax over a 60-ft run), SWR-related losses are reasonable on 60-10 meters. Above 20 meters the radiation angle increases. However, since the antenna is electrically longer the radiation resistance increases which makes ground losses less significant. Lots of trade-offs to consider. Matching at the antenna base is important on 160- and 80-meters as the SWR is VERY high on those bands. Also, most autotuners cannot match the 43-foot vertical at the base on 160-meters so additional external inductance is needed on this band (see the Autotuner Extender in the “Articles” section of my website. I prefer the convenience of the autotuner in the shack, especially if you use an amplifier. A remote tuner can’t easily take your amp off-line during tuning or if a high SWR suddenly occurs. So I use a fixed base match for 160/80 meters, and the standard 4:1 unun on 60-10 meters (all switchable from the shack). My KAT500 in the shack handles all the bandwidth extensions I need on all bands. Phil – AD5X __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
On 09/03/2013 06:29 AM, Phil Debbie Salas wrote: I also have some info in the “Presentations” section of my website at www.ad5x.com. Phil's The 43-Foot Vertical presentation is very well written and contains a wealth of good information. Phil references a 10 Ohm ground. Using the information in: http://www.kn5l.net/GroundRadialStudy/ which summarizes three published ground radial analysis reports. Using the combined data from the three reports: A 160 meter radial system requires 24 80 foot radials for a 9 ohm ground. A 40 meter, and higher frequency, radial system requires 60 56 foot radials for an 8 Ohm ground. Both assuming an average ground. John KN5L __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
On 9/2/2013 11:18 PM, Matt Moller wrote: I don't have any experience with 43 ft verticals myself but have heard a lot about them and have been thinking about building one. I too would like to learn more. The reason for my post asking for experience with this antenna and the Elecraft tuner is that I'm putting together a presentation on 43-ft verticals for Pacificon next month. So far, I've done a lot of modeling to understand how a 43-ft vertical behaves on all ham bands, both when ground-mounted and on the roof of a typical home (with two radials for each band 40-10M). A few years ago, AD5X did some excellent work on matching a 43-ft vertical, with engineering that can best be described as heroic, and shared it in an fine Power Point that he's done for ham clubs, and that is on the internet. He's given me permission to include parts of it in my Pacificon talk. That talk is scheduled for Saturday morning. The day before, as part of the Antenna Forum, I'm showing a rather extensive study with the title, If I Could Put My Multi-Band HF Vertical On My Roof, Should I? Except for the 43-ft vertical, nearly all commercial multi-band verticals are resonant on the bands they cover, and are either monopoles with radials (a classic ground plane), or vertical dipoles without radials. Various designs use anything from traps to a combination of traps, stubs, and matching sections to resonate the antenna and present a 50 ohm load. . Both Power Points will be on my website after Pacificon. As to radials -- some of the best work I've seen is by Rudy Severns, N6LF, who has done both extensive modeling and significant experimental work to confirm the models. His work is quite thoughtful, and presented in a manner that is quite readable (but not light reading). As to assigning resistance values to a given number and length of radials -- I've seen several published studies, some in the ARRL Handbook and Antenna Book, that come up with quite conflicting numbers. I suspect that the primary cause of the conflicting results is the nature of the soil underneath the radial system. At Pacificon last year I did a talk about getting on 160M from a residential lot, which is mostly about antennas, radial systems, and counterpoises. In it, I collected much of the better work I've seen about radial systems. The Power Point is on my website. http://k9yc.com/publish.htm Based on my modeling, and upon an excellent set of measurements by N0AX and K7LXC of a dozen commercial verticals, if I had limited space and could not rig horizontal dipoles for the bands I wanted to work, I would use one of those commercial multi-band antennas configured as a vertical dipole, and I would put it on my roof. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Hi Jim, I use exactly that here in Tampa. My antenna is a stealth 43' of green 18 gauge wire up a tree and 43' of the same horizontal hidden in the bushes. I am in an apartment. The feed point is about 10' above ground. I feed it with open wire line from a 4:1 balun on the back of my K3 with the internal tuner. I am guessing the feed line is about 25'. It matches on 80-6 ... sometimes ... excessive rain causes a HIGH CURRENT on the radio and I just back down the power until it goes off. I did tinker with different lengths of coax between the balun and the radio ... 10 feet of RG58 and the best SWR on 20 was 2:1 and 6 meters would have nothing to do with it. I have not experimented with the length of the open wire line ... the set up seems to work fine as I currently have it. 43' is a popular height because it is 5/8 on 20 and can provide 3db gain. For me the antenna works very well on 40, 30, 20 and 17. It is very poor on 80 and the angle of radiation is a bit high on 15-10. I have worked locals on 6 (use a 6 m delta loop in attic the rest of the time). On 160 the tuner would have nothing to do with it. BUT on 160 during the Stew Perry I did add a base loading coil and hid 1/4 radial in the bushes and worked up and down the East coast plus VEs and Carribian. My current goal is DXCC on RTTY and only confirmed on LOTW. With this set-up and I am up to 65 countries with only 100 watts. Hope this helps. 73, Mike WA5POK/4 Tampa -- From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 7:10 PM To: Reflector Elecraft elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require a serious tuner to get them to load. I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that is, no baluns, transformers, loading coils, or additional matching networks. I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like to know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in the shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner. Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Thanks Mike. Your observations about radiation angle and performance are in good agreement with my modeling. Yes, the secret sauce is that 43 ft is 5/8 on 20M. 73, Jim K9YC On 9/3/2013 11:17 AM, mikefur...@att.net wrote: Hi Jim, I use exactly that here in Tampa. My antenna is a stealth 43' of green 18 gauge wire up a tree and 43' of the same horizontal hidden in the bushes. I am in an apartment. The feed point is about 10' above ground. I feed it with open wire line from a 4:1 balun on the back of my K3 with the internal tuner. I am guessing the feed line is about 25'. It matches on 80-6 ... sometimes ... excessive rain causes a HIGH CURRENT on the radio and I just back down the power until it goes off. I did tinker with different lengths of coax between the balun and the radio ... 10 feet of RG58 and the best SWR on 20 was 2:1 and 6 meters would have nothing to do with it. I have not experimented with the length of the open wire line ... the set up seems to work fine as I currently have it. 43' is a popular height because it is 5/8 on 20 and can provide 3db gain. For me the antenna works very well on 40, 30, 20 and 17. It is very poor on 80 and the angle of radiation is a bit high on 15-10. I have worked locals on 6 (use a 6 m delta loop in attic the rest of the time). On 160 the tuner would have nothing to do with it. BUT on 160 during the Stew Perry I did add a base loading coil and hid 1/4 radial in the bushes and worked up and down the East coast plus VEs and Carribian. My current goal is DXCC on RTTY and only confirmed on LOTW. With this set-up and I am up to 65 countries with only 100 watts. Hope this helps. 73, Mike WA5POK/4 Tampa __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
An interesting point I noticed modeling a 43 foot vertical was that, while on 10 meters the main lobe is up around 50 degrees, the gain at low angles is similar to a 1/4 wave ground plane antenna cut for 10 meters. That's because the longer antenna has significant gain over a 1/4 wave antenna so the amount of radiation down at the lower angles is about the same as a 1/4 wave. That's for a ground mounted 1/4 wave on 10 meters. Ideally you want to raise the 10 meter vertical at least 1/2 wavelength - roughly 16 feet - then you get much better low angle radiation from the 1/4 wave because the ground absorbs much less of the lowest angle radiation. Installed that way, the 1/4 wave shines over the 43 footer. Also, of course, there is less interference with the signal by foliage, buildings, etc. That's why so-called vertical ground plane antennas are so popular on the higher HF bands. 73, Ron AC7AC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
YES! You've hit the nail beautifully on the head, Ron. I just finished preparing slides comparing a 43 ft ground-mounted vertical with a good radial system on 20M, 15M, and 10M with a classic ground plane at 30 ft and vertical dipole with a base at 30 ft for those bands.Looking at performance below about 15 degrees elevation, the three antennas are roughly equal at the low angles on 20M, but both the ground planes and the vertical dipole blow the 43 ft vertical away on 15M and 10M (the difference ranges between 6-8 dB, depending on ground conductivity). The practical problem with sticking a ground plane on your roof is that it needs at least two radials per band, but there are several multiband antennas for those bands configured as vertical dipoles that work well without radials. That's the basis of my earlier statement that a roof-mounted well-designed multi-band vertical dipole is a far better antenna above 20M than the 43 ft vertical. 73, Jim K9YC On 9/3/2013 2:28 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: An interesting point I noticed modeling a 43 foot vertical was that, while on 10 meters the main lobe is up around 50 degrees, the gain at low angles is similar to a 1/4 wave ground plane antenna cut for 10 meters. That's because the longer antenna has significant gain over a 1/4 wave antenna so the amount of radiation down at the lower angles is about the same as a 1/4 wave. That's for a ground mounted 1/4 wave on 10 meters. Ideally you want to raise the 10 meter vertical at least 1/2 wavelength - roughly 16 feet - then you get much better low angle radiation from the 1/4 wave because the ground absorbs much less of the lowest angle radiation. Installed that way, the 1/4 wave shines over the 43 footer. Also, of course, there is less interference with the signal by foliage, buildings, etc. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
This has been an excellent discussion on the 43 foot vertical. I have one installed in my back yard (DX Engineering). Very happy with it overall. It's been an excellent performer on 20 meters, and good on other bands; I'm a casual DX-er, but have worked 5 continents SSB with the 12 watt output of my barefoot K3. Phil Salas had an excellent article in QST a year or so ago describing how to install switchable loading coils at the foot of the antenna, to mitigate low-band problems. I match my 43 footer with a home-brew tuner -- a fully switch-configurable L-tuner that has a 27 µH variable inductor, 600 pFd of air variable capacitance, and two additional 600 pFd fixed caps that can be switched in parallel with the variables to provide up to 1800 pFd capacitance. With this tuner, I can get a match across the full spectrum of all bands except 160 meters, where I can get below 2:1 only in the top 200 khz (without Phil's loading coils). I recognize, of course, that the line losses are severe on the low bands, even with a run of only 60 feet of 9913 Belden coax. (A more detailed description of this tuner project is available at http://n6lew.us, if anyone's interested.) For the high bands, I already have both a home brew 6 meter j-pole and a three-element quad. I'm currently working on construction of a 17-15-12-10 meter hexbeam, to overcome the high radiation angle of the vertical on the higher bands. (Although most published hexbeam designs also in include 20 meters, I'm omitting that band from my project to reduce antenna size for visibility reasons, and because the vertical performs quite well on 20, as noted. Overall, I'd say that the 43 foot vertical pairs up well with the K3, although I can't speak to the ability of the Elecraft auto-tuner to match the load on all bands. The simple L-tuner does so quite nicely. Lew Phelps N6LEW Pasadena, CA DM04wd Elecraft K3-10 Yaesu FT-7800 l...@n6lew.us www.n6lew.us On Sep 3, 2013, at 5:23 PM, Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com wrote: YES! You've hit the nail beautifully on the head, Ron. I just finished preparing slides comparing a 43 ft ground-mounted vertical with a good radial system on 20M, 15M, and 10M with a classic ground plane at 30 ft and vertical dipole with a base at 30 ft for those bands.Looking at performance below about 15 degrees elevation, the three antennas are roughly equal at the low angles on 20M, but both the ground planes and the vertical dipole blow the 43 ft vertical away on 15M and 10M (the difference ranges between 6-8 dB, depending on ground conductivity). The practical problem with sticking a ground plane on your roof is that it needs at least two radials per band, but there are several multiband antennas for those bands configured as vertical dipoles that work well without radials. That's the basis of my earlier statement that a roof-mounted well-designed multi-band vertical dipole is a far better antenna above 20M than the 43 ft vertical. 73, Jim K9YC On 9/3/2013 2:28 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote: An interesting point I noticed modeling a 43 foot vertical was that, while on 10 meters the main lobe is up around 50 degrees, the gain at low angles is similar to a 1/4 wave ground plane antenna cut for 10 meters. That's because the longer antenna has significant gain over a 1/4 wave antenna so the amount of radiation down at the lower angles is about the same as a 1/4 wave. That's for a ground mounted 1/4 wave on 10 meters. Ideally you want to raise the 10 meter vertical at least 1/2 wavelength - roughly 16 feet - then you get much better low angle radiation from the 1/4 wave because the ground absorbs much less of the lowest angle radiation. Installed that way, the 1/4 wave shines over the 43 footer. Also, of course, there is less interference with the signal by foliage, buildings, etc. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
On 9/3/2013 5:23 PM, Jim Brown wrote: The practical problem with sticking a ground plane on your roof is that it needs at least two radials per band, but there are several multiband antennas for those bands configured as vertical dipoles that work well without radials. That's the basis of my earlier statement that a roof-mounted well-designed multi-band vertical dipole is a far better antenna above 20M than the 43 ft vertical. I bought a GAP Titan, mainly for WARC bands, my low-band ladder-line fed sloping vee [135' on a side] gets really complicated above 40m. I've observed: The GAP is about 1-2 S-units noisier. Not surprising, it's a vertical. It works on the WARC bands, satisfying my need, I've never used it on the contest bands. I think it's a center-fed half-wave vertical dipole. It does have a square wire loop thingy near the bottom that seems to deal with 40m, pretty big. No radials, but with the big square loop, it might as well have them. I'm fairly convinced the shield of the coax plays a part on at least a couple of bands, maybe all. They warn you to route the coax out a hole in the side of the support mast, not out the bottom. I installed it on a 3 riser pipe that goes straight up inside the wall from a 2' square utility box in the wall under my radio desk. It has a standard weatherhead on the top and carries the coax to the tower on a steel messenger. This was a misteak. With the KPA500 at 500W, on 40m, I get a lot of RF from the GAP screwing up things like the WinKey, the laptop, and various other digital gadgets. Fortunately I don't use it on 40m. It's directly over my head, I probably could have considered that but of course didn't. On 160, my sloping Vee also keys several of the irrigation control valves ... they're not exactly up to QRQ and the pipes bang really bad. I've modeled the 43' vertical, both on the ground and in the air. I've tried one, on the ground with a not-too-shabby radial system. It appears to me that it is: A vertical 43' seems to garner some friendlier feed impedances on some bands than some other lengths, and it's physically manageable in restricted spaces, HOA or otherwise It's a vertical 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 2013 Cal QSO Party 5-6 Oct 2013 - www.cqp.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
On 9/3/2013 7:30 PM, Fred Jensen wrote: With the KPA500 at 500W, on 40m, I get a lot of RF from the GAP screwing up things like the WinKey, the laptop, and various other digital gadgets. The first thing I would do is put a serious ferrite choke on the coax at the antenna. If that doesn't fix it, I'd say it's radiation from the antenna itself. 73, Jim __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Remember the old Hy-Gain Hy-Tower ? It had tuning stubs brought out from various places in order to provide resonance on 10, 15 20 M, maybe even one for 40M. I have a manual around here but am too lazy to go find it. Anyway, I believe it was 57 feet overall and was rated for 80 - 10 M. You could add a base loading coil and an additional length of wire off the top mast for 160M. With an adequate radial system, they were the cat's meow of verticals back then. I always wondered how the connection points for those resonators was determined. Probably to limit interaction with other bands (??) Maybe some sort of similar set-up could be done with parallel wire stubs. I remember trying to tune a four pair parallel wire dipole for 20, 17 , 15 and 10 M. What a bear. Tweak one band and it would screw up the others. I finally got it tuned, but had to completely replace all the wires since I had chopped and re-soldered all of them so many times. I used ½ PVC pipe spreaders which kept the four wires about 2 from each other. Once up, it would have been impossible to re-deploy due to tangles. 73, Charlie k3ICH - Original Message - From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners On 9/3/2013 7:30 PM, Fred Jensen wrote: With the KPA500 at 500W, on 40m, I get a lot of RF from the GAP screwing up things like the WinKey, the laptop, and various other digital gadgets. The first thing I would do is put a serious ferrite choke on the coax at the antenna. If that doesn't fix it, I'd say it's radiation from the antenna itself. 73, Jim __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
I had a HyTower in the late 60's. It worked well for me for several years in two locations. Istill haven't figured out how it worked exactly. I would sure like to hear an explanation of what those stubs actually did and how they were determined. Somebody must have written an analysis, but I have yet to find one. Eric KE6US On 9/3/2013 8:35 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote: Remember the old Hy-Gain Hy-Tower ? It had tuning stubs brought out from various places in order to provide resonance on 10, 15 20 M, maybe even one for 40M. I have a manual around here but am too lazy to go find it. Anyway, I believe it was 57 feet overall and was rated for 80 - 10 M. You could add a base loading coil and an additional length of wire off the top mast for 160M. With an adequate radial system, they were the cat's meow of verticals back then. I always wondered how the connection points for those resonators was determined. Probably to limit interaction with other bands (??) Maybe some sort of similar set-up could be done with parallel wire stubs. I remember trying to tune a four pair parallel wire dipole for 20, 17 , 15 and 10 M. What a bear. Tweak one band and it would screw up the others. I finally got it tuned, but had to completely replace all the wires since I had chopped and re-soldered all of them so many times. I used ½ PVC pipe spreaders which kept the four wires about 2 from each other. Once up, it would have been impossible to re-deploy due to tangles. 73, Charlie k3ICH - Original Message - From: Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2013 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners On 9/3/2013 7:30 PM, Fred Jensen wrote: With the KPA500 at 500W, on 40m, I get a lot of RF from the GAP screwing up things like the WinKey, the laptop, and various other digital gadgets. The first thing I would do is put a serious ferrite choke on the coax at the antenna. If that doesn't fix it, I'd say it's radiation from the antenna itself. 73, Jim __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
I use paralleled dipoles here, and I have limited the number of bands on a single feedline to 3 bands, so I have one for 20, 15, and 10 meters, and another for 30, 17, and 12. The wires are spaced about 1 foot apart with PVC spreaders. Tuning them is a bit of a challenge, but if one tunes the lowest band first, and then progresses to the next higher band, it can be done. Do not try to mix 3rd harmonic bands such as 40 meters and 15 meters, or 80 meters and 30 meters. I do have a 3rd dual band for 80 and 40, but the radiators are arranged at right angles to each other so there is little interactions between those 2 bands. 73, Don W3FPR On 9/3/2013 11:35 PM, Charlie T, K3ICH wrote: I remember trying to tune a four pair parallel wire dipole for 20, 17 , 15 and 10 M. What a bear. Tweak one band and it would screw up the others. I finally got it tuned, but had to completely replace all the wires since I had chopped and re-soldered all of them so many times. I used ½ PVC pipe spreaders which kept the four wires about 2 from each other. Once up, it would have been impossible to re-deploy due to tangles. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
On 9/3/2013 9:16 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: I use paralleled dipoles here, and I have limited the number of bands on a single feedline to 3 bands, so I have one for 20, 15, and 10 meters, and another for 30, 17, and 12. The wires are spaced about 1 foot apart with PVC spreaders. I like fan dipoles a lot, and quickly came to all of the same conclusions you did. One thing I learned from modeling is that the lowest frequency band has the same SWR bandwidth of a single dipole, but the dipoles for higher frequencies have roughly half the SWR bandwidth. 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require a serious tuner to get them to load. I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that is, no baluns, transformers, loading coils, or additional matching networks. I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like to know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in the shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner. Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Good question... I would like to know too. A wise man once said nothing On Sep 2, 2013, at 5:10 PM, Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com wrote: 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require a serious tuner to get them to load. I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that is, no baluns, transformers, loading coils, or additional matching networks. I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like to know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in the shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner. Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
I know this isn't an answer to the basic premise of the raised question, but let me throw this out. 1. 43 ft. verticals that are ground mounted require a large, good ground system. 2. Depending on the band you are operating, the assumption of a high VSWR is correct. 3. High VSWRs on coax are a losing proposition. I use an 18' elevated vertical with an elevated radial system and a tuner at the base of the vertical. The reasons I do this are: 1. Elevated radial systems need not be as extensive as ground based radial systems; I have 4 radials, two 9 footers and two 19 footers. 2. 18 ft. is as high as I could get and still have my radial system close to where I wanted it; the tree was too low. 3. A tuner at the base of the vertical allows me to run coax all the way with an VSWR less than 1.5:1 on all bands. The question now is how does it play or compare. The answer is I don't have an absolute answer, but from what I see using WSPR at 1.5 Watts, it seems to play well. I only have only had the system up a few weeks and don't yet have enough experience with it to be more definitive. My gut tells me that this is a better overall system than expensive, commercial verticals. Almost everything is available from Home Depot except the tuner and a few insulators. I hope this has triggered some curiosity. 73, Barry K3NDM On 9/2/2013 7:10 PM, Jim Brown wrote: 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require a serious tuner to get them to load. I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that is, no baluns, transformers, loading coils, or additional matching networks. I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like to know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in the shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner. Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
One can feed the 43 foot vertical with ladder line, and do the tuning in the shack (yes, you can feed a vertical with balanced line), but if feeding with coax, the best place for the matching network is at the base of the antenna. Coax is good for an swr of 2.0 or less (depending on the frequency). If the SWR is greater than that, some kind of matching device at the base of the antenna is in order. Ladder line feed OTOH is quite OK with an SWR of 20:1 if it is properly routed - away from conducting surfaces by at least 3 times its spacing and similarly away from the earth. Again, yes, balanced feedline is an alternative for vertical antennas - the antenna may be *unbalanced*, but the feedline does not care, You still need balanced current and return current for the antenna to functon correctly. 73, Don W3FPR On 9/2/2013 7:12 PM, Philip Townsend Lontz wrote: Good question... I would like to know too. A wise man once said nothing On Sep 2, 2013, at 5:10 PM, Jim Brown j...@audiosystemsgroup.com wrote: 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require a serious tuner to get them to load. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Hi Jim !! I have a ZeroFive 40 meter monoband vertical with 60-12 ft radials on a radial plate and use only the tuner on my K1. I can easily tune 40 , 20 and 15 but 30 I can get down to 1.6 to 1 (still acceptable) Feedline is RG-8X that is 75 ft long. Used this setup in many DX contests with great success along with many stateside contests. 73 George Osier , N2JNZ -Original Message- From: Jim Brown Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 7:10 PM To: Reflector Elecraft Subject: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require a serious tuner to get them to load. I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that is, no baluns, transformers, loading coils, or additional matching networks. I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like to know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in the shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner. Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
George, Let me suggest that move your tuner to the base of the vertical. It shouldn't make a big difference in tuning, but will cut your losses due to SWR, particularly on 15. 73, Barry K3NDM On 9/2/2013 8:49 PM, gos...@twcny.rr.com wrote: Hi Jim !! I have a ZeroFive 40 meter monoband vertical with 60-12 ft radials on a radial plate and use only the tuner on my K1. I can easily tune 40 , 20 and 15 but 30 I can get down to 1.6 to 1 (still acceptable) Feedline is RG-8X that is 75 ft long. Used this setup in many DX contests with great success along with many stateside contests. 73 George Osier , N2JNZ -Original Message- From: Jim Brown Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 7:10 PM To: Reflector Elecraft Subject: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners 43 ft verticals have become a popular antenna, and while they have some strong points, they present a very high SWR on most bands, so they require a serious tuner to get them to load. I'd like to know of any stations using a 43 Ft vertical as a multi-band antenna using nothing but an Elecraft antenna tuner for matching -- that is, no baluns, transformers, loading coils, or additional matching networks. I'd like to know the bands on which you are able to match it well enough to get full power from the rig (or the power amp). I'd like to know if the tuner is located at the base of the antenna, or, if in the shack, the length of feedline between antenna and tuner. Thanks and 73, Jim K9YC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Barry, Number 1 is true if, and only if, the antenna is used below 14 MHz. It's all a matter of feed point impedance. The higher the impedance, the less ground dependent the antenna will be for good efficiency. At 1/2 wavelength and above, The ground has limited effect on the antenna efficiency. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Barry LaZar Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 4:32 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners I know this isn't an answer to the basic premise of the raised question, but let me throw this out. 1. 43 ft. verticals that are ground mounted require a large, good ground system. 2. Depending on the band you are operating, the assumption of a high VSWR is correct. 3. High VSWRs on coax are a losing proposition. I use an 18' elevated vertical with an elevated radial system and a tuner at the base of the vertical. The reasons I do this are: 1. Elevated radial systems need not be as extensive as ground based radial systems; I have 4 radials, two 9 footers and two 19 footers. 2. 18 ft. is as high as I could get and still have my radial system close to where I wanted it; the tree was too low. 3. A tuner at the base of the vertical allows me to run coax all the way with an VSWR less than 1.5:1 on all bands. The question now is how does it play or compare. The answer is I don't have an absolute answer, but from what I see using WSPR at 1.5 Watts, it seems to play well. I only have only had the system up a few weeks and don't yet have enough experience with it to be more definitive. My gut tells me that this is a better overall system than expensive, commercial verticals. Almost everything is available from Home Depot except the tuner and a few insulators. I hope this has triggered some curiosity. 73, Barry K3NDM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Aaargh. I meant the more ground independent the antenna becomes not less, above 14 MHz. That is the nature of the ground is less of a concern when the radiator is at least 1/2 wavelength long. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 7:04 PM To: 'Barry LaZar'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners Barry, Number 1 is true if, and only if, the antenna is used below 14 MHz. It's all a matter of feed point impedance. The higher the impedance, the less ground dependent the antenna will be for good efficiency. At 1/2 wavelength and above, The ground has limited effect on the antenna efficiency. 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Barry LaZar Sent: Monday, September 02, 2013 4:32 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners I know this isn't an answer to the basic premise of the raised question, but let me throw this out. 1. 43 ft. verticals that are ground mounted require a large, good ground system. 2. Depending on the band you are operating, the assumption of a high VSWR is correct. 3. High VSWRs on coax are a losing proposition. I use an 18' elevated vertical with an elevated radial system and a tuner at the base of the vertical. The reasons I do this are: 1. Elevated radial systems need not be as extensive as ground based radial systems; I have 4 radials, two 9 footers and two 19 footers. 2. 18 ft. is as high as I could get and still have my radial system close to where I wanted it; the tree was too low. 3. A tuner at the base of the vertical allows me to run coax all the way with an VSWR less than 1.5:1 on all bands. The question now is how does it play or compare. The answer is I don't have an absolute answer, but from what I see using WSPR at 1.5 Watts, it seems to play well. I only have only had the system up a few weeks and don't yet have enough experience with it to be more definitive. My gut tells me that this is a better overall system than expensive, commercial verticals. Almost everything is available from Home Depot except the tuner and a few insulators. I hope this has triggered some curiosity. 73, Barry K3NDM __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 Ft Vertical and Elecraft Tuners
Don#x27;t worry about remoteing the tuner, but ditch the RG8X and use RG8 with the least loss you can find. George,W6GF __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] 43 ft Vertical
The other half of this vertical antenna is the ground system. Without that other half, you will be wasting your time and money on the first half. The proof of this - you would never dream of putting up half of a dipole. Hi Hi 73, Dave Little, AF5U __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 ft Vertical
The proof of this - you would never dream of putting up half of a dipole. Hi Hi Sure. It's called an End Fed Half Wave dipole. Oh, but to some, that's not an antenna. -- Mark, KJ7BS Glendale, AZ Editor, The SKCC Centurion Elecraft K2 S/N 0539 Fists # 2972 CC 1806 SKCC # 2240 C56 T20 MQFD # 128 QRP-ARCI # 12647 AZ ScQRPions COGRC Emergency Communications David Little a...@verizon.net wrote: = The other half of this vertical antenna is the ground system. Without that other half, you will be wasting your time and money on the first half. 73, Dave Little, AF5U __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 ft Vertical
The other half of the antenna is the braid of your coax unless you use an unun and connect the antenna to something like the ship superstructure or the sail of a submarine. I used a 114 ft wire connected to the sail of a sub this weekend and it worked pretty well, but not nearly as well as my SteppIR. Willis 'Cookie' Cooke K5EWJ From: Mark, KJ7BS kj...@cox.net To: plama...@verizon.net plama...@verizon.net; David Little a...@verizon.net; Elecraft Elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Mon, June 7, 2010 1:27:36 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 43 ft Vertical The proof of this - you would never dream of putting up half of a dipole. Hi Hi Sure. It's called an End Fed Half Wave dipole. Oh, but to some, that's not an antenna. -- Mark, KJ7BS Glendale, AZ Editor, The SKCC Centurion Elecraft K2 S/N 0539 Fists # 2972 CC 1806 SKCC # 2240 C56 T20 MQFD # 128 QRP-ARCI # 12647 AZ ScQRPions COGRC Emergency Communications David Little a...@verizon.net wrote: = The other half of this vertical antenna is the ground system. Without that other half, you will be wasting your time and money on the first half. 73, Dave Little, AF5U __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 ft Vertical
It is an antenna and a good one, but it is not half of a dipole, it is a whole dipole. It does not matter where a dipole is fed, it is still a half wave long. 73, Rick Detinger K7MW On Jun 7, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Mark, KJ7BS wrote: The proof of this - you would never dream of putting up half of a dipole. Hi Hi Sure. It's called an End Fed Half Wave dipole. Oh, but to some, that's not an antenna. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 ft Vertical
On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 13:13:25 -0500, David Little a...@verizon.net wrote: The other half of this vertical antenna is the ground system. Without that other half, you will be wasting your time and money on the first half. The proof of this - you would never dream of putting up half of a dipole. Hi Hi 73, Dave Little, AF5U Perhaps that is true about a Monopole Vertical which by the way CAN have a ground system consisting of a ground rod, which is very inefficient, unless standing in salt water. The Half Sloper is an efficient wire antenna which uses a tower or other grounded metal pole as it's other half, but in that configuration the wire does not radiate a great deal. The pole or tower does the radiating. See The ARRL Antenna Book or ON4UN's Low-Band DXing. Tom, N5GE K3 #806 with SUB RX, PR6, KRC2 and K144XV K3 #1055 with PR6 and XV432 W1, 2 W2's and other small kits QCWA Life Member 35102 n...@n5ge.com http://www.n5ge.com http://www.swotrc.net __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 ft Vertical
On Mon, 7 Jun 2010 11:51:41 -0700, Rick Dettinger k7m...@gmail.com wrote: What you are describing is a half wave end fed wire which has the other side of the circuit attached to ground. For an antenna to be a dipole it must be two individual wires each fed independently by a balanced or unbalanced feed line. Each of the two wires may be as of different length. It is an antenna and a good one, but it is not half of a dipole, it is a whole dipole. It does not matter where a dipole is fed, it is still a half wave long. 73, Rick Detinger K7MW [snip] BT 73 ES GUD LUK DE N5GE, QCWA LIFE MEMBER 35102 AR SK n...@n5ge.com http://www.n5ge.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 ft Vertical
Well if you double the frequency, then add a quarter wavelength of ladder line, you have the original Zepp antenna, or the modern equivalent, a J-pole. 73, Don W3FPR Mark, KJ7BS wrote: The proof of this - you would never dream of putting up half of a dipole. Hi Hi __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 ft Vertical
It is an antenna and a good one, but it is not half of a dipole, it is a whole dipole. It does not matter where a dipole is fed, it is still a half wave long. I beg to differ. A dipole is an antenna with two elements fed at the same location. A half wave end fed is only one element that is a half wave long. -- Mark, KJ7BS Glendale, AZ Editor, The SKCC Centurion Elecraft K2 S/N 0539 Fists # 2972 CC 1806 SKCC # 2240 C56 T20 MQFD # 128 QRP-ARCI # 12647 AZ ScQRPions COGRC Emergency Communications Rick Dettinger k7m...@gmail.com wrote: = It is an antenna and a good one, but it is not half of a dipole, it is a whole dipole. It does not matter where a dipole is fed, it is still a half wave long. 73, Rick Detinger K7MW On Jun 7, 2010, at 11:27 AM, Mark, KJ7BS wrote: The proof of this - you would never dream of putting up half of a dipole. Hi Hi Sure. It's called an End Fed Half Wave dipole. Oh, but to some, that's not an antenna. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 ft Vertical
I find this discussion pretty enlightening as I too plan to use my 50 ft. fiberglass mast to support a vertical as well as my G5RV. (Well, not really a G5RV as the ladder line will run all the way to the shack.) Sadly, I feel the dreaded End of Thread message coming though. As always, take care es... Vy 73 de Bert WA2SI Hpe all got to wrk the E4X DX-pedition over the past few days. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] 43 ft Vertical Balun
Those of you who a thinking about a 43 ft vertical or how to feed it might read the links I have provided you here. I have built a 43 ft vertical from a 50 ft telescoping Rohn push-up pole. I am using a mesh ground system under it thanks to Home Depot's 4ft x 7 ft mesh sheets linked together, radial wires, grounding rods, and a homebrew balun. I am using a K2 with ATU and 100 watts through a short run of LMR400 coax to the base of the antenna where the balun is located. The 43 ft vertical also supports my windom. The windom is insulated from the vertical. Below are several links on the 43 ft antenna including the AD5X info on how to build your own balun. I based my balun on his and it works fine. If you do not wish the build your own balun, a great one can be purchased from Balun Desins LLC. They offer two models for low and high power. The links are all there. http://vk1od.net/antenna/multibandunloadedvertical/index.htm http://www.balundesigns.com/servlet/the-Ununs-for-Verticals-%26-Longwires/Categories http://www.ad5x.com/images/Articles/Match160.pdf http://www.ad5x.com/images/Presentations/Vertical43.pdf 73 Dave Little, AF5U __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] 43 ft Vertical Balun
I have a 43 ft vertical from Zero Five and I purchased the switching balun from Phil after it was featured in QST. I switch back and forth from the PRO67B at 72 ft and the vertical and am amazed how good the vertical works. The ground is the key. Phil Philip LaMarche LaMarche Enterprises, Inc p...@lamarcheenterprises.com www.LaMarcheEnterprises.com 727-944-3226 727-937-8834 Fax 727-510-5038 Cell www.w9dvm.com K3 #1605 CCA 98-00827 CRA 1701 W9DVM -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of David Little Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2010 2:13 PM To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] 43 ft Vertical Balun Those of you who a thinking about a 43 ft vertical or how to feed it might read the links I have provided you here. I have built a 43 ft vertical from a 50 ft telescoping Rohn push-up pole. I am using a mesh ground system under it thanks to Home Depot's 4ft x 7 ft mesh sheets linked together, radial wires, grounding rods, and a homebrew balun. I am using a K2 with ATU and 100 watts through a short run of LMR400 coax to the base of the antenna where the balun is located. The 43 ft vertical also supports my windom. The windom is insulated from the vertical. Below are several links on the 43 ft antenna including the AD5X info on how to build your own balun. I based my balun on his and it works fine. If you do not wish the build your own balun, a great one can be purchased from Balun Desins LLC. They offer two models for low and high power. The links are all there. http://vk1od.net/antenna/multibandunloadedvertical/index.htm http://www.balundesigns.com/servlet/the-Ununs-for-Verticals-%26-Longwires/Ca tegories http://www.ad5x.com/images/Articles/Match160.pdf http://www.ad5x.com/images/Presentations/Vertical43.pdf 73 Dave Little, AF5U __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html