RE: [Elecraft] Audio problem in WPX SSB
Andy, Here is what happens: For phone contesting, I my software CQPWIN, which plays wav files for DVK usage (as do other programs). I run the output in such a way that when the dvk is playing, the mic is shut off, but the audio from the computer goes into the mic connector of the radio. As soon as it stops playing, it disconnects the computer and reconnects the microphone. I run it from the computer into a W2IHY iBox for isolation, and the output to the radio. The Mic is a Heil pro-set. With the K3, the messages play fine, but after one finishes, if I use the mic, the radio starts out at lower power and takes 2-4 seconds to build back up to high power. This is the same whether using the front or rear input and whether using high or low gain. After working in this quite a bit over the weekend the problem is related to the K3 microphone AGC. It appears that levels from the microphone and DVK must be extremely well balanced - much more closely balanced than with any other radio or the stronger input will cause the microphone AGC to reduce the mic gain and the weaker input will be much weaker. The 2-4 second delay seems to be related to an extremely long ACG time constant (probably intended to prevent the ACG from acting like a clipper). The problem is made worse - at least in my case - because the ALC indicator provides only 5 very small, difficult to see, bars for adjustment and the steps are rather course (6 dB per division). This means that the maximum spread between the two inputs can be almost 12 dB (!) even when the display only shows a slight flicker between the two adjacent bars (e.g., the mic is barely triggering the 5th bar and the DVK is hitting the sixth bar hard). After some thought there are several ways (a combination of all is best) to help the situation: 1) reduce the time constant (AGC hang) to about .5 second and dump any gain reduction when the PTT is released. 2) Use more of the ALC display to get better resolution. There are 12 bars in that part of the display but only six are used (with the sixth indicating overdrive). At least expand the good range to seven (or eight) bars to coincide with the right edge of the ALC bracket. 3) Make the ALC display response logarithmic (like a VU meter). Instead of 5 x 6 dB or 30 dB total ... the same total range could be displayed with the first bar = -20 dB, the second = -10 dB, the third = -7 dB, the fourth = -5 dB, the fifth = -3 dB, the sixth -1 dB, the seventh = 0 dB, the eighth +1 dB, the ninth +3 dB and the 10th +6 dB. Setting/matching levels would be MUCH easier. It's no accident that professional recording and broadcasting have used similar scales for decades. 4) Give the ALC meter a dual mode display - showing both short duration peak and average (the current ALC) would help. Alternatively, any peak hold dot above the ALC region could show gain reduction by the mic AGC (and warn about overdriving the input). 5) Provide a set-up mode that disables mic AGC - this will allow balancing sources (either FP/RP/Line or multiple inputs on an external mixer) without chasing the effects of the mic AGC. I understand there has been some work on the mic AGC in the firmware currently in test and that may help. However, this area needs to be more user friendly. As it is, I can see significant issues when using the K3 in a multi-operator setting where the relative levels need to be reset completely for every operator change! 73, ... Joe, W4TV -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Faber Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 12:08 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wayne burdick Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] Audio problem in WPX SSB Wayne, A peculiar audio situation arose using my K3 in Aruba in WPX SSB. It works the same way at home, and isn't a problem I've ever had with any of many other radios that I've used in the same contest configuration. Here is what happens: For phone contesting, I my software CQPWIN, which plays wav files for DVK usage (as do other programs). I run the output in such a way that when the dvk is playing, the mic is shut off, but the audio from the computer goes into the mic connector of the radio. As soon as it stops playing, it disconnects the computer and reconnects the microphone. I run it from the computer into a W2IHY iBox for isolation, and the output to the radio. The Mic is a Heil pro-set. With the K3, the messages play fine, but after one finishes, if I use the mic, the radio starts out at lower power and takes 2-4 seconds to build back up to high power. This is the same whether using the front or rear input and whether using high or low gain. Also, the W2IHY box has to be turned up to a level
Re: [Elecraft] Audio problem in WPX SSB
Joe, Thanks for the very thoughtful analysis. I'm very pleased to say that the problem seems to be greatly reduced with the latest firmware (1.81/1.63). I can't tell if it is completely eliminated, but it's certainly much reduced. Lyle, Wayne, what did you do? Whatever it is, it seems to have helped greatly. 73, andy, ae6y - Original Message - From: Joe Subich, W4TV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Andy Faber' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'wayne burdick' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 6:56 PM Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Audio problem in WPX SSB Andy, Here is what happens: For phone contesting, I my software CQPWIN, which plays wav files for DVK usage (as do other programs). I run the output in such a way that when the dvk is playing, the mic is shut off, but the audio from the computer goes into the mic connector of the radio. As soon as it stops playing, it disconnects the computer and reconnects the microphone. I run it from the computer into a W2IHY iBox for isolation, and the output to the radio. The Mic is a Heil pro-set. With the K3, the messages play fine, but after one finishes, if I use the mic, the radio starts out at lower power and takes 2-4 seconds to build back up to high power. This is the same whether using the front or rear input and whether using high or low gain. After working in this quite a bit over the weekend the problem is related to the K3 microphone AGC. It appears that levels from the microphone and DVK must be extremely well balanced - much more closely balanced than with any other radio or the stronger input will cause the microphone AGC to reduce the mic gain and the weaker input will be much weaker. The 2-4 second delay seems to be related to an extremely long ACG time constant (probably intended to prevent the ACG from acting like a clipper). The problem is made worse - at least in my case - because the ALC indicator provides only 5 very small, difficult to see, bars for adjustment and the steps are rather course (6 dB per division). This means that the maximum spread between the two inputs can be almost 12 dB (!) even when the display only shows a slight flicker between the two adjacent bars (e.g., the mic is barely triggering the 5th bar and the DVK is hitting the sixth bar hard). After some thought there are several ways (a combination of all is best) to help the situation: 1) reduce the time constant (AGC hang) to about .5 second and dump any gain reduction when the PTT is released. 2) Use more of the ALC display to get better resolution. There are 12 bars in that part of the display but only six are used (with the sixth indicating overdrive). At least expand the good range to seven (or eight) bars to coincide with the right edge of the ALC bracket. 3) Make the ALC display response logarithmic (like a VU meter). Instead of 5 x 6 dB or 30 dB total ... the same total range could be displayed with the first bar = -20 dB, the second = -10 dB, the third = -7 dB, the fourth = -5 dB, the fifth = -3 dB, the sixth -1 dB, the seventh = 0 dB, the eighth +1 dB, the ninth +3 dB and the 10th +6 dB. Setting/matching levels would be MUCH easier. It's no accident that professional recording and broadcasting have used similar scales for decades. 4) Give the ALC meter a dual mode display - showing both short duration peak and average (the current ALC) would help. Alternatively, any peak hold dot above the ALC region could show gain reduction by the mic AGC (and warn about overdriving the input). 5) Provide a set-up mode that disables mic AGC - this will allow balancing sources (either FP/RP/Line or multiple inputs on an external mixer) without chasing the effects of the mic AGC. I understand there has been some work on the mic AGC in the firmware currently in test and that may help. However, this area needs to be more user friendly. As it is, I can see significant issues when using the K3 in a multi-operator setting where the relative levels need to be reset completely for every operator change! 73, ... Joe, W4TV -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Faber Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 12:08 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wayne burdick Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] Audio problem in WPX SSB Wayne, A peculiar audio situation arose using my K3 in Aruba in WPX SSB. It works the same way at home, and isn't a problem I've ever had with any of many other radios that I've used in the same contest configuration. Here is what happens: For phone contesting, I my software CQPWIN, which plays wav files for DVK usage (as do other programs). I run the output in such a way that when the dvk is playing, the mic is shut off, but the audio from the computer goes into the mic connector of the radio. As soon as it stops playing, it disconnects the computer and reconnects the microphone. I run it from
RE: [Elecraft] Audio problem in WPX SSB
Don, Check Lyle's answer yesterday to similar questions. I read Lyle's postings faithfully. I have checked them again and see no indication that the firmware under test deals with the no output after DVK problem. The discussions center on certain radios that do not reach PEP even when showing normal ALC. You can expect the firmware release to fix it in about a week according to Lyle. In this case there should be no DC shift (microKEYER II is AC coupled for both DVK and mic) and no level difference between DVK (wave file) and mic. 73, ... Joe, W4TV -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 1:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Audio problem in WPX SSB Joe, Check Lyle's answer yesterday to similar questions. It is a known problem and the fix is being field tested right now. You can expect the firmware release to fix it in about a week according to Lyle. 73, Don W3FPR Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: With the K3, the messages play fine, but after one finishes, if I use the mic, the radio starts out at lower power and takes 2-4 seconds to build back up to high power. This is the same whether using the front or rear input and whether using high or low gain. I've noticed the very same thing with the microHAM microKEYER II and its software DVK. I have not had time to further diagnose the issue and check it with other interfaces but it is quite pronounced. There is no difference if using FP.L or FP.H when the MK II output is adjusted for four to five bars of ALC. Bias is OFF and the microphone output of microKEYER II is capacitive coupled (top and bottom) so there is no DC effect. I will not have time to look at this issue further until later in the week. 73, ... Joe, W4TV ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Audio problem in WPX SSB
Joe, Yes, I agree. I tried Lyle's suggstion of turning off the ALC in the config menu, but that didn't help the situation. 73,a ndy, ae6y - Original Message - From: Joe Subich, W4TV [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 7:38 AM Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Audio problem in WPX SSB Don, Check Lyle's answer yesterday to similar questions. I read Lyle's postings faithfully. I have checked them again and see no indication that the firmware under test deals with the no output after DVK problem. The discussions center on certain radios that do not reach PEP even when showing normal ALC. You can expect the firmware release to fix it in about a week according to Lyle. In this case there should be no DC shift (microKEYER II is AC coupled for both DVK and mic) and no level difference between DVK (wave file) and mic. 73, ... Joe, W4TV -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 1:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Audio problem in WPX SSB Joe, Check Lyle's answer yesterday to similar questions. It is a known problem and the fix is being field tested right now. You can expect the firmware release to fix it in about a week according to Lyle. 73, Don W3FPR Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: With the K3, the messages play fine, but after one finishes, if I use the mic, the radio starts out at lower power and takes 2-4 seconds to build back up to high power. This is the same whether using the front or rear input and whether using high or low gain. I've noticed the very same thing with the microHAM microKEYER II and its software DVK. I have not had time to further diagnose the issue and check it with other interfaces but it is quite pronounced. There is no difference if using FP.L or FP.H when the MK II output is adjusted for four to five bars of ALC. Bias is OFF and the microphone output of microKEYER II is capacitive coupled (top and bottom) so there is no DC effect. I will not have time to look at this issue further until later in the week. 73, ... Joe, W4TV ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Audio problem in WPX SSB
Don, What answer of Lyle's are you referring to? I think I asked the original question, but didn't get that answer, as far as I know. Thanks. 73, andy, ae6y - Original Message - From: Don Wilhelm [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 'Andy Faber' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:17 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Audio problem in WPX SSB Joe, Check Lyle's answer yesterday to similar questions. It is a known problem and the fix is being field tested right now. You can expect the firmware release to fix it in about a week according to Lyle. 73, Don W3FPR Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: With the K3, the messages play fine, but after one finishes, if I use the mic, the radio starts out at lower power and takes 2-4 seconds to build back up to high power. This is the same whether using the front or rear input and whether using high or low gain. I've noticed the very same thing with the microHAM microKEYER II and its software DVK. I have not had time to further diagnose the issue and check it with other interfaces but it is quite pronounced. There is no difference if using FP.L or FP.H when the MK II output is adjusted for four to five bars of ALC. Bias is OFF and the microphone output of microKEYER II is capacitive coupled (top and bottom) so there is no DC effect. I will not have time to look at this issue further until later in the week. 73, ... Joe, W4TV ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
RE: [Elecraft] Audio problem in WPX SSB
With the K3, the messages play fine, but after one finishes, if I use the mic, the radio starts out at lower power and takes 2-4 seconds to build back up to high power. This is the same whether using the front or rear input and whether using high or low gain. I've noticed the very same thing with the microHAM microKEYER II and its software DVK. I have not had time to further diagnose the issue and check it with other interfaces but it is quite pronounced. There is no difference if using FP.L or FP.H when the MK II output is adjusted for four to five bars of ALC. Bias is OFF and the microphone output of microKEYER II is capacitive coupled (top and bottom) so there is no DC effect. I will not have time to look at this issue further until later in the week. 73, ... Joe, W4TV -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Faber Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 12:08 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wayne burdick Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: [Elecraft] Audio problem in WPX SSB Wayne, A peculiar audio situation arose using my K3 in Aruba in WPX SSB. It works the same way at home, and isn't a problem I've ever had with any of many other radios that I've used in the same contest configuration. Here is what happens: For phone contesting, I my software CQPWIN, which plays wav files for DVK usage (as do other programs). I run the output in such a way that when the dvk is playing, the mic is shut off, but the audio from the computer goes into the mic connector of the radio. As soon as it stops playing, it disconnects the computer and reconnects the microphone. I run it from the computer into a W2IHY iBox for isolation, and the output to the radio. The Mic is a Heil pro-set. With the K3, the messages play fine, but after one finishes, if I use the mic, the radio starts out at lower power and takes 2-4 seconds to build back up to high power. This is the same whether using the front or rear input and whether using high or low gain. Also, the W2IHY box has to be turned up to a level that normally would overdrive other radios. I tried not using the W2IHY box (ie, running the audio straight from either my laptop or my desktop to the radio) with the same result. It also doesn't matter if the radio is using PTT or VOX, or whether it just remains in transmit. These seems like a some kind of odd impedance issue, but, as I said, it's one that has never shown up with Icom-Yaesu or Kenwood radios. Any ideas? I'm using 1.78/1.58 firmware, and the radio was just back to you for Rene to do hardware mods (serial number 76). In all other respects, I loved it in the contest. 73, Andy, AE6Y ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Re: [Elecraft] Audio problem in WPX SSB
Joe, Check Lyle's answer yesterday to similar questions. It is a known problem and the fix is being field tested right now. You can expect the firmware release to fix it in about a week according to Lyle. 73, Don W3FPR Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: With the K3, the messages play fine, but after one finishes, if I use the mic, the radio starts out at lower power and takes 2-4 seconds to build back up to high power. This is the same whether using the front or rear input and whether using high or low gain. I've noticed the very same thing with the microHAM microKEYER II and its software DVK. I have not had time to further diagnose the issue and check it with other interfaces but it is quite pronounced. There is no difference if using FP.L or FP.H when the MK II output is adjusted for four to five bars of ALC. Bias is OFF and the microphone output of microKEYER II is capacitive coupled (top and bottom) so there is no DC effect. I will not have time to look at this issue further until later in the week. 73, ... Joe, W4TV ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
[Elecraft] Audio problem in WPX SSB
Wayne, A peculiar audio situation arose using my K3 in Aruba in WPX SSB. It works the same way at home, and isn't a problem I've ever had with any of many other radios that I've used in the same contest configuration. Here is what happens: For phone contesting, I my software CQPWIN, which plays wav files for DVK usage (as do other programs). I run the output in such a way that when the dvk is playing, the mic is shut off, but the audio from the computer goes into the mic connector of the radio. As soon as it stops playing, it disconnects the computer and reconnects the microphone. I run it from the computer into a W2IHY iBox for isolation, and the output to the radio. The Mic is a Heil pro-set. With the K3, the messages play fine, but after one finishes, if I use the mic, the radio starts out at lower power and takes 2-4 seconds to build back up to high power. This is the same whether using the front or rear input and whether using high or low gain. Also, the W2IHY box has to be turned up to a level that normally would overdrive other radios. I tried not using the W2IHY box (ie, running the audio straight from either my laptop or my desktop to the radio) with the same result. It also doesn't matter if the radio is using PTT or VOX, or whether it just remains in transmit. These seems like a some kind of odd impedance issue, but, as I said, it's one that has never shown up with Icom-Yaesu or Kenwood radios. Any ideas? I'm using 1.78/1.58 firmware, and the radio was just back to you for Rene to do hardware mods (serial number 76). In all other respects, I loved it in the contest. 73, Andy, AE6Y ___ Elecraft mailing list Post to: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
