Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
I did a little research on FCC Regs and found this according to a sub article in QEX May/June 2000 The transmission of telephony in digital format (emission designator J1E or J2E) is perfectly legal in the phone bands. The restriction placed on transmitted baud rate by §97.307(f)(3) of the FCC rules does not apply. In fact, there is no upper limit on the bit rate for this mode. and later in a box on the second page it starts Is Digital Voice Permissible under Part 97? There has been some discussion about Part 97 of the FCC Rules and whether digital voice is “legal.” A careful reading of the Rules will show that digital voice is indeed provided for The whole article can be read here http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/0056x003.pdf see the box on the second page which explains it in detail. Unfortunately the main article is somewhat over my head much like most stuff in QEX but I keep reading anyway. In Canada we have less restrictions regarding the band plans and Digital Voice is allowed here as well. David Moes dm...@nexicom.net VE3DVY On 4/5/2013 1:17 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote: I have thought about this also. Some data modes use carrier, others are audio. Some data modes in the phone portion will conserve bandwidth, but will consume bandwidth in the CW portion. It will be interesting to see how it sorts out. Rich, n0ce - Original Message - From: ab2tc To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 9:18 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue) Correction, Replace term digital below with data. Knut - AB2TC ab2tc wrote Hi again, This slightly OT thread is becoming rather long but I'll risk another entry. Nobody has addressed the issue about whether these types of signals are actually permitted in our phone bands. I have never seen a precise definition of what the FCC means with the terms phone, digital or image. If digital voice meats the criteria for digital, according to FCC they should go in the CW portion of the bands! I can't imagine that would be popular with the CW folks. AB2TC - Knut snip __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
Hi again, This slightly OT thread is becoming rather long but I'll risk another entry. Nobody has addressed the issue about whether these types of signals are actually permitted in our phone bands. I have never seen a precise definition of what the FCC means with the terms phone, digital or image. If digital voice meats the criteria for digital, according to FCC they should go in the CW portion of the bands! I can't imagine that would be popular with the CW folks. AB2TC - Knut Bill Frantz wrote On 4/3/13 at 3:47 PM, KX3@ (Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT) wrote: Lyle answered me offlist and told me to RTFM, page 18. And thank you Lyle for The Fine Manual. Bill, AE6JV snip -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Free-DV-digital-voice-as-reported-in-QST-April-issue-tp7572113p7572228.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
Correction, Replace term digital below with data. Knut - AB2TC ab2tc wrote Hi again, This slightly OT thread is becoming rather long but I'll risk another entry. Nobody has addressed the issue about whether these types of signals are actually permitted in our phone bands. I have never seen a precise definition of what the FCC means with the terms phone, digital or image. If digital voice meats the criteria for digital, according to FCC they should go in the CW portion of the bands! I can't imagine that would be popular with the CW folks. AB2TC - Knut snip -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Free-DV-digital-voice-as-reported-in-QST-April-issue-tp7572113p7572237.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
I have thought about this also. Some data modes use carrier, others are audio. Some data modes in the phone portion will conserve bandwidth, but will consume bandwidth in the CW portion. It will be interesting to see how it sorts out. Rich, n0ce - Original Message - From: ab2tc To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 9:18 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue) Correction, Replace term digital below with data. Knut - AB2TC ab2tc wrote Hi again, This slightly OT thread is becoming rather long but I'll risk another entry. Nobody has addressed the issue about whether these types of signals are actually permitted in our phone bands. I have never seen a precise definition of what the FCC means with the terms phone, digital or image. If digital voice meats the criteria for digital, according to FCC they should go in the CW portion of the bands! I can't imagine that would be popular with the CW folks. AB2TC - Knut snip __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
It was me that was under question by Don. I am glad to learn of the correct way, but I must say that I received very good reports the way I was running it. However, I like the way the ALC looks using Don's recommendation. As a comment, many of the people I have heard running freeDV are using Flex radios, yet a K3 is so simple to use and so few. Go figure. Rich, n0ce - Original Message - From: Julian, G4ILO To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 12:10 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue) I have set it up that way, Don, and it works fine. I was in QSO with someone who had a Flex and I was running 25W and I increased the power to 40W and he told me that he was still getting perfect copy and could detect no increase in bandwidth. You really have to try hard to make a K3 splatter. Julian, G4ILO Don Wilhelm-4 wrote Since this is just another digital mode, why would you not set the K3 ALC indication as specified for other digital modes. 4 bars on the ALC meter with the 5th bar flickering. If you do not do it that way, the K3 will power hunt and you will not have consistent power output. Bring the audio up as indicated in the digital operation section of the K3 manual and set the power knob for the desired power output. 73, Don W3FPR - Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222 KX3 #110 * G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com * KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html * KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Free-DV-digital-voice-as-reported-in-QST-April-issue-tp7572113p7572249.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
Digital modes as DV use a confined portion of BW, less than BW required by SSB audio signal of relative high quality. Certainly is impossible the coexistence of DV signal with audio signal at same channel, including another DV signal, however several DV signals located one next to the other are perfectly decoded (into normal audio BW of 3.3 Khz can be three DV channels) but three audio signals located same manner become to non discernible signals. Edu YY4GMJ On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Richard Fjeld rpfj...@embarqmail.comwrote: It was me that was under question by Don. I am glad to learn of the correct way, but I must say that I received very good reports the way I was running it. However, I like the way the ALC looks using Don's recommendation. As a comment, many of the people I have heard running freeDV are using Flex radios, yet a K3 is so simple to use and so few. Go figure. Rich, n0ce - Original Message - From: Julian, G4ILO To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Friday, April 05, 2013 12:10 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue) I have set it up that way, Don, and it works fine. I was in QSO with someone who had a Flex and I was running 25W and I increased the power to 40W and he told me that he was still getting perfect copy and could detect no increase in bandwidth. You really have to try hard to make a K3 splatter. Julian, G4ILO Don Wilhelm-4 wrote Since this is just another digital mode, why would you not set the K3 ALC indication as specified for other digital modes. 4 bars on the ALC meter with the 5th bar flickering. If you do not do it that way, the K3 will power hunt and you will not have consistent power output. Bring the audio up as indicated in the digital operation section of the K3 manual and set the power knob for the desired power output. 73, Don W3FPR - Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222 KX3 #110 * G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com * KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html * KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html -- View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Free-DV-digital-voice-as-reported-in-QST-April-issue-tp7572113p7572249.html Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
Hi Eduardo, I think you've hit the problem. A DV signal takes up, say, 2 kHz but it really takes it up. Even when the speaker is pausing, there is still a signal sort of like a RTTY diddle filling the bandwidth. This may give the subjective impression that a DV signal is more intrusive than an analog SSB one. Also in a three-way SSB QSO two people can try to talk at the same time and both will at least be heard. It is a bit like conversing at a party trying to focus on the speaker you want to hear. But they don't completely cut each other off with SSB. Maybe DV can have aggressive VOX so that it turns off when there are pauses? Sort of digital break in keying? 73, Oliver W6ODJ On 5 Jan. 2013, at 11:23 AM, Eduardo González edujo...@gmail.com wrote: Certainly is impossible the coexistence of DV signal with audio signal at same channel, including another DV signal __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
Since the subject is the Digital Voice with a K3. I have operated the DV voice with my K3 with the ALC showing the 5 to 7 bars as recommended. However, even if I set the power out to 50 watts or more, the maximum I can see on an external watt meter is at most 30 watts indicated. I only see this limited power out indicated on the DV program, other digital modes programs I show as high or low as I set the power out for. Is this normal with the DV program, latest version? 73, John, N3WT Lyle answered me offlist and told me to RTFM, page 18. It's right there in black and white. 73 -- Lynn On 4/3/2013 3:37 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Lynn, I have no verification, but the KX3 is similar (but not necessarily the same). Note that the KX3 voice calls for 5 bars on the ALC meter for voice, while the K3 calls for 5 to 7 bars. That says that there may be some difference. We will have to wait for Lyle or Wayne to chime in with the real info on the KX3 ALC onset point. In the meantime, I would suggest that the answer is yes set the KX3 audio for 4 bars and assume that is the no ALC point. The 5th bar would then indicate ALC is being activated. The power control in the KX3 is similar to the K3, so if the audio level is too low, power creep will be the result. BTW, for those using the K2, the situation is similar, but the K2 ALC meter does not have the VU meter scale at the low end. If the K2 ALC indicator flickers, it means ALC has occurred. For the K2, increase the audio until you see an ALC indication, and then back off until it is gone. The power control on the K2, K3 and KX3 are essentially the same - a closed loop system that attempts to produce the power output requested on the power knob. Most transceivers do not do this closed loop power control, but instead use an open loop system that depends on the drive level alone. That is why the traditional advice to use the audio drive level to control the power output works well with most transceivers, but it does not work well with Elecraft transceivers because they use a closed loop power control system. Only Elecraft and some commercial transceivers use this closed loop power control system. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/3/2013 5:53 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote: Is it safe to assume this is true of the KX3 as well? -- Lynn On 4/3/2013 11:47 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Well, I 'thought' was in the manual, and it *should* be. Lyle has explained several times here on the reflector (and he should know, he designed it) that the onset of ALC action is at the 5th bar. The bars below that do not indicate ALC action at all. Due to the way the K3 controls power, if you do not have sufficient audio, the K3 will increase power (thinking there is not enough drive) and you will find your power drifting upward as you transmit. So adjust for 4 bars on the ALC meter (that is *no* ALC) so your power will be uniform throughout the transmission. With the K3 you must have sufficient audio drive to allow the power controls to work as they should. Contrary to the advice given for most transceivers (which do not control power in a closed loop), the K3 power will behave strangely if you use that advice - which is to set the power for maximum and use the audio drive to control the power output. That just will not work with the K3. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
Probably you are suffering the bandwidth issue about standard power meter. Power meters used on shack are designed to measuring CW signals, single tone signals. DV use a fixed bandwidth with multiple carriers that can produce erroneous measures on standard watt-meters. Edu YY4GMJ On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 6:40 AM, John Sweeney n...@comcast.net wrote: Since the subject is the Digital Voice with a K3. I have operated the DV voice with my K3 with the ALC showing the 5 to 7 bars as recommended. However, even if I set the power out to 50 watts or more, the maximum I can see on an external watt meter is at most 30 watts indicated. I only see this limited power out indicated on the DV program, other digital modes programs I show as high or low as I set the power out for. Is this normal with the DV program, latest version? 73, John, N3WT Lyle answered me offlist and told me to RTFM, page 18. It's right there in black and white. 73 -- Lynn On 4/3/2013 3:37 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Lynn, I have no verification, but the KX3 is similar (but not necessarily the same). Note that the KX3 voice calls for 5 bars on the ALC meter for voice, while the K3 calls for 5 to 7 bars. That says that there may be some difference. We will have to wait for Lyle or Wayne to chime in with the real info on the KX3 ALC onset point. In the meantime, I would suggest that the answer is yes set the KX3 audio for 4 bars and assume that is the no ALC point. The 5th bar would then indicate ALC is being activated. The power control in the KX3 is similar to the K3, so if the audio level is too low, power creep will be the result. BTW, for those using the K2, the situation is similar, but the K2 ALC meter does not have the VU meter scale at the low end. If the K2 ALC indicator flickers, it means ALC has occurred. For the K2, increase the audio until you see an ALC indication, and then back off until it is gone. The power control on the K2, K3 and KX3 are essentially the same - a closed loop system that attempts to produce the power output requested on the power knob. Most transceivers do not do this closed loop power control, but instead use an open loop system that depends on the drive level alone. That is why the traditional advice to use the audio drive level to control the power output works well with most transceivers, but it does not work well with Elecraft transceivers because they use a closed loop power control system. Only Elecraft and some commercial transceivers use this closed loop power control system. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/3/2013 5:53 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote: Is it safe to assume this is true of the KX3 as well? -- Lynn On 4/3/2013 11:47 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Well, I 'thought' was in the manual, and it *should* be. Lyle has explained several times here on the reflector (and he should know, he designed it) that the onset of ALC action is at the 5th bar. The bars below that do not indicate ALC action at all. Due to the way the K3 controls power, if you do not have sufficient audio, the K3 will increase power (thinking there is not enough drive) and you will find your power drifting upward as you transmit. So adjust for 4 bars on the ALC meter (that is *no* ALC) so your power will be uniform throughout the transmission. With the K3 you must have sufficient audio drive to allow the power controls to work as they should. Contrary to the advice given for most transceivers (which do not control power in a closed loop), the K3 power will behave strangely if you use that advice - which is to set the power for maximum and use the audio drive to control the power output. That just will not work with the K3. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help:
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
On 4/3/13 at 3:47 PM, k...@coldrockshotbrooms.com (Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT) wrote: Lyle answered me offlist and told me to RTFM, page 18. And thank you Lyle for The Fine Manual. Bill, AE6JV --- Bill Frantz|We used to quip that password is the most common 408-356-8506 | password. Now it's 'password1.' Who said users haven't www.pwpconsult.com | learned anything about security? -- Bruce Schneier __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
Digital slowscan uses tones, just like AFSK, PSK31, or any other soundcard-based mode. It does not use analog, continuously variable tones, like original slowscan, but discrete tones, like AFSK. It does not use a bandwidth wider than a standard SSB signal, about 2.5 - 2.8 khz. In fact when I receive digital slowscan I narrow the bandwidth to remove interference. The worst our frequency offenders are the daily social nets found throughout the phone allocations. One frequency on each band does not strike me as frequency hogging, and it does allow the few users of a mode to find one another. In the case of PSK31, it allows many times more QSOs to be possible in the approximately 3khz segment used. Monty K2DLJ I am concerned with the creepage into our phone bands of wide digital modes with their raw audio when tuning in SSB mode. The occupants of these frequencies are also typically very protective of their frequencies and tend to be intolerant of intruders. AB2TC - Knut __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
This is what is so great about getting a sound card interface working with a radio. Once you do that, it opens up opportunities to use many of the 'digital' modes, as they all use the same sound card interface. PSK31, SSTV (using MMSSTV), RTTY (using MMTTY), Hellschreiber, Digital Voice, Digital SSTV and many many more, You can find free software for all of these modes. I have several PSK-31 videos on my YouTube channel, just search for my call. Have fun, see you on the waterfall... Randy. K7AGE On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 9:46 AM, MontyS mon...@mindspring.com wrote: Digital slowscan uses tones, just like AFSK, PSK31, or any other soundcard-based mode. It does not use analog, continuously variable tones, like original slowscan, but discrete tones, like AFSK. It does not use a bandwidth wider than a standard SSB signal, about 2.5 - 2.8 khz. In fact when I receive digital slowscan I narrow the bandwidth to remove interference. The worst our frequency offenders are the daily social nets found throughout the phone allocations. One frequency on each band does not strike me as frequency hogging, and it does allow the few users of a mode to find one another. In the case of PSK31, it allows many times more QSOs to be possible in the approximately 3khz segment used. Monty K2DLJ I am concerned with the creepage into our phone bands of wide digital modes with their raw audio when tuning in SSB mode. The occupants of these frequencies are also typically very protective of their frequencies and tend to be intolerant of intruders. AB2TC - Knut __**__**__ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/**mailman/listinfo/elecrafthttp://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.**htmhttp://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:elecr...@mailman.qth.**net Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
FreeDV uses about one-third the bandwidth of many of the SSB signals seen on the bands. (1100 Hz) We have tried it on 75 meters during heavy QRN and QRM while using low power. We were surprised to find that we were able to work well, (but not perfect). We had occasional loss of sync, but worked noise free due to it being digital. It will not replace SSB, but it will be useful. As for DSSTV; what a great way to send a .jpg drawing or picture to someone. As they say, 'a picture is worth a thousand words'. DSSTV pics are amazing clarity. But, I guess the internet has spoiled us. With that thought, why bother with radio? Rich, n0ce - Original Message - From: MontyS To: ab2tc ; elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 11:46 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue) Digital slowscan uses tones, just like AFSK, PSK31, or any other soundcard-based mode. It does not use analog, continuously variable tones, like original slowscan, but discrete tones, like AFSK. It does not use a bandwidth wider than a standard SSB signal, about 2.5 - 2.8 khz. In fact when I receive digital slowscan I narrow the bandwidth to remove interference. The worst our frequency offenders are the daily social nets found throughout the phone allocations. One frequency on each band does not strike me as frequency hogging, and it does allow the few users of a mode to find one another. In the case of PSK31, it allows many times more QSOs to be possible in the approximately 3khz segment used. Monty K2DLJ I am concerned with the creepage into our phone bands of wide digital modes with their raw audio when tuning in SSB mode. The occupants of these frequencies are also typically very protective of their frequencies and tend to be intolerant of intruders. AB2TC - Knut __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
Maybe I need an updated manual?? I do not find that in my manual, else I am overlooking it. 'Data modes' in my manual takes me to page 31. Isn't it better to be on the 'lean' side than the 'strong' side for ALC in data modes? I would like to know more about the K3 'power hunting'. Rich, n0ce - Original Message - From: Don Wilhelm To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 12:29 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue) Since this is just another digital mode, why would you not set the K3 ALC indication as specified for other digital modes. 4 bars on the ALC meter with the 5th bar flickering. If you do not do it that way, the K3 will power hunt and you will not have consistent power output. Bring the audio up as indicated in the digital operation section of the K3 manual and set the power knob for the desired power output. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/3/2013 1:12 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Keep your ALC low, just barely visible. Make notes. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
Well, I 'thought' was in the manual, and it *should* be. Lyle has explained several times here on the reflector (and he should know, he designed it) that the onset of ALC action is at the 5th bar. The bars below that do not indicate ALC action at all. Due to the way the K3 controls power, if you do not have sufficient audio, the K3 will increase power (thinking there is not enough drive) and you will find your power drifting upward as you transmit. So adjust for 4 bars on the ALC meter (that is *no* ALC) so your power will be uniform throughout the transmission. With the K3 you must have sufficient audio drive to allow the power controls to work as they should. Contrary to the advice given for most transceivers (which do not control power in a closed loop), the K3 power will behave strangely if you use that advice - which is to set the power for maximum and use the audio drive to control the power output. That just will not work with the K3. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/3/2013 2:25 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Maybe I need an updated manual?? I do not find that in my manual, else I am overlooking it. 'Data modes' in my manual takes me to page 31. Isn't it better to be on the 'lean' side than the 'strong' side for ALC in data modes? I would like to know more about the K3 'power hunting'. Rich, n0ce - Original Message - From: Don Wilhelm To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 12:29 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue) Since this is just another digital mode, why would you not set the K3 ALC indication as specified for other digital modes. 4 bars on the ALC meter with the 5th bar flickering. If you do not do it that way, the K3 will power hunt and you will not have consistent power output. Bring the audio up as indicated in the digital operation section of the K3 manual and set the power knob for the desired power output. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/3/2013 1:12 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Keep your ALC low, just barely visible. Make notes. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
It took some finding on the Elecraft site and in the end I had to use the site's search tool, but the information (and more besides) is at http://www.elecraft.com/K3/k3_operating_tips.htm I agree that something so important should be in the main manual. 73 Stephen G4SJP On 3 April 2013 19:47, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Well, I 'thought' was in the manual, and it *should* be. Lyle has explained several times here on the reflector (and he should know, he designed it) that the onset of ALC action is at the 5th bar. The bars below that do not indicate ALC action at all. Due to the way the K3 controls power, if you do not have sufficient audio, the K3 will increase power (thinking there is not enough drive) and you will find your power drifting upward as you transmit. So adjust for 4 bars on the ALC meter (that is *no* ALC) so your power will be uniform throughout the transmission. With the K3 you must have sufficient audio drive to allow the power controls to work as they should. Contrary to the advice given for most transceivers (which do not control power in a closed loop), the K3 power will behave strangely if you use that advice - which is to set the power for maximum and use the audio drive to control the power output. That just will not work with the K3. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/3/2013 2:25 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Maybe I need an updated manual?? I do not find that in my manual, else I am overlooking it. 'Data modes' in my manual takes me to page 31. Isn't it better to be on the 'lean' side than the 'strong' side for ALC in data modes? I would like to know more about the K3 'power hunting'. Rich, n0ce - Original Message - From: Don Wilhelm To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 12:29 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue) Since this is just another digital mode, why would you not set the K3 ALC indication as specified for other digital modes. 4 bars on the ALC meter with the 5th bar flickering. If you do not do it that way, the K3 will power hunt and you will not have consistent power output. Bring the audio up as indicated in the digital operation section of the K3 manual and set the power knob for the desired power output. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/3/2013 1:12 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Keep your ALC low, just barely visible. Make notes. __**__**__ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/**mailman/listinfo/elecrafthttp://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.**htmhttp://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:elecr...@mailman.qth.**net Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
Is it safe to assume this is true of the KX3 as well? -- Lynn On 4/3/2013 11:47 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Well, I 'thought' was in the manual, and it *should* be. Lyle has explained several times here on the reflector (and he should know, he designed it) that the onset of ALC action is at the 5th bar. The bars below that do not indicate ALC action at all. Due to the way the K3 controls power, if you do not have sufficient audio, the K3 will increase power (thinking there is not enough drive) and you will find your power drifting upward as you transmit. So adjust for 4 bars on the ALC meter (that is *no* ALC) so your power will be uniform throughout the transmission. With the K3 you must have sufficient audio drive to allow the power controls to work as they should. Contrary to the advice given for most transceivers (which do not control power in a closed loop), the K3 power will behave strangely if you use that advice - which is to set the power for maximum and use the audio drive to control the power output. That just will not work with the K3. 73, Don W3FPR __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
Lynn, I have no verification, but the KX3 is similar (but not necessarily the same). Note that the KX3 voice calls for 5 bars on the ALC meter for voice, while the K3 calls for 5 to 7 bars. That says that there may be some difference. We will have to wait for Lyle or Wayne to chime in with the real info on the KX3 ALC onset point. In the meantime, I would suggest that the answer is yes set the KX3 audio for 4 bars and assume that is the no ALC point. The 5th bar would then indicate ALC is being activated. The power control in the KX3 is similar to the K3, so if the audio level is too low, power creep will be the result. BTW, for those using the K2, the situation is similar, but the K2 ALC meter does not have the VU meter scale at the low end. If the K2 ALC indicator flickers, it means ALC has occurred. For the K2, increase the audio until you see an ALC indication, and then back off until it is gone. The power control on the K2, K3 and KX3 are essentially the same - a closed loop system that attempts to produce the power output requested on the power knob. Most transceivers do not do this closed loop power control, but instead use an open loop system that depends on the drive level alone. That is why the traditional advice to use the audio drive level to control the power output works well with most transceivers, but it does not work well with Elecraft transceivers because they use a closed loop power control system. Only Elecraft and some commercial transceivers use this closed loop power control system. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/3/2013 5:53 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote: Is it safe to assume this is true of the KX3 as well? -- Lynn On 4/3/2013 11:47 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Well, I 'thought' was in the manual, and it *should* be. Lyle has explained several times here on the reflector (and he should know, he designed it) that the onset of ALC action is at the 5th bar. The bars below that do not indicate ALC action at all. Due to the way the K3 controls power, if you do not have sufficient audio, the K3 will increase power (thinking there is not enough drive) and you will find your power drifting upward as you transmit. So adjust for 4 bars on the ALC meter (that is *no* ALC) so your power will be uniform throughout the transmission. With the K3 you must have sufficient audio drive to allow the power controls to work as they should. Contrary to the advice given for most transceivers (which do not control power in a closed loop), the K3 power will behave strangely if you use that advice - which is to set the power for maximum and use the audio drive to control the power output. That just will not work with the K3. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
Lyle answered me offlist and told me to RTFM, page 18. It's right there in black and white. 73 -- Lynn On 4/3/2013 3:37 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Lynn, I have no verification, but the KX3 is similar (but not necessarily the same). Note that the KX3 voice calls for 5 bars on the ALC meter for voice, while the K3 calls for 5 to 7 bars. That says that there may be some difference. We will have to wait for Lyle or Wayne to chime in with the real info on the KX3 ALC onset point. In the meantime, I would suggest that the answer is yes set the KX3 audio for 4 bars and assume that is the no ALC point. The 5th bar would then indicate ALC is being activated. The power control in the KX3 is similar to the K3, so if the audio level is too low, power creep will be the result. BTW, for those using the K2, the situation is similar, but the K2 ALC meter does not have the VU meter scale at the low end. If the K2 ALC indicator flickers, it means ALC has occurred. For the K2, increase the audio until you see an ALC indication, and then back off until it is gone. The power control on the K2, K3 and KX3 are essentially the same - a closed loop system that attempts to produce the power output requested on the power knob. Most transceivers do not do this closed loop power control, but instead use an open loop system that depends on the drive level alone. That is why the traditional advice to use the audio drive level to control the power output works well with most transceivers, but it does not work well with Elecraft transceivers because they use a closed loop power control system. Only Elecraft and some commercial transceivers use this closed loop power control system. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/3/2013 5:53 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote: Is it safe to assume this is true of the KX3 as well? -- Lynn On 4/3/2013 11:47 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote: Well, I 'thought' was in the manual, and it *should* be. Lyle has explained several times here on the reflector (and he should know, he designed it) that the onset of ALC action is at the 5th bar. The bars below that do not indicate ALC action at all. Due to the way the K3 controls power, if you do not have sufficient audio, the K3 will increase power (thinking there is not enough drive) and you will find your power drifting upward as you transmit. So adjust for 4 bars on the ALC meter (that is *no* ALC) so your power will be uniform throughout the transmission. With the K3 you must have sufficient audio drive to allow the power controls to work as they should. Contrary to the advice given for most transceivers (which do not control power in a closed loop), the K3 power will behave strangely if you use that advice - which is to set the power for maximum and use the audio drive to control the power output. That just will not work with the K3. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue)
I'd like to thank all for their help, and for setting me straight. I am guilty of reading the manual and using it to look up info when possible. As for helping Eric, I thought it would be best to stay on what I thought was the safe side from a data consideration. The radio gets better the more I learn about it. Rich, n0ce - Original Message - From: Stephen Prior To: Elecraft Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue) It took some finding on the Elecraft site and in the end I had to use the site's search tool, but the information (and more besides) is at http://www.elecraft.com/K3/k3_operating_tips.htm I agree that something so important should be in the main manual. 73 Stephen G4SJP On 3 April 2013 19:47, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Well, I 'thought' was in the manual, and it *should* be. Lyle has explained several times here on the reflector (and he should know, he designed it) that the onset of ALC action is at the 5th bar. The bars below that do not indicate ALC action at all. Due to the way the K3 controls power, if you do not have sufficient audio, the K3 will increase power (thinking there is not enough drive) and you will find your power drifting upward as you transmit. So adjust for 4 bars on the ALC meter (that is *no* ALC) so your power will be uniform throughout the transmission. With the K3 you must have sufficient audio drive to allow the power controls to work as they should. Contrary to the advice given for most transceivers (which do not control power in a closed loop), the K3 power will behave strangely if you use that advice - which is to set the power for maximum and use the audio drive to control the power output. That just will not work with the K3. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/3/2013 2:25 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Maybe I need an updated manual?? I do not find that in my manual, else I am overlooking it. 'Data modes' in my manual takes me to page 31. Isn't it better to be on the 'lean' side than the 'strong' side for ALC in data modes? I would like to know more about the K3 'power hunting'. Rich, n0ce - Original Message - From: Don Wilhelm To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2013 12:29 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Free DV (digital voice as reported in QST-Aprilissue) Since this is just another digital mode, why would you not set the K3 ALC indication as specified for other digital modes. 4 bars on the ALC meter with the 5th bar flickering. If you do not do it that way, the K3 will power hunt and you will not have consistent power output. Bring the audio up as indicated in the digital operation section of the K3 manual and set the power knob for the desired power output. 73, Don W3FPR On 4/3/2013 1:12 PM, Richard Fjeld wrote: Keep your ALC low, just barely visible. Make notes. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
