Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[jerry]

On 2023-05-18 17:20, Drew Arnett wrote:



Love the big bulky heavy over the ear headphones.  :-)


*** I just scored a pair of these at the local ham swap...
for $10.  Yes, the Heil Pro7.  Works FB on receive. Haven't tried them 
on transmit yet;

waiting on connectors to make up a patchcord.

- Jerry, KF6VB

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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Drew Arnett]

And to conclude...  in case someone else runs into a problem like this
maybe they can sort it out faster.  (Actually happened to a friend
with a lightweight walkman style headset that had been worn ragged.
Identical symptoms.  He tossed them and used a new set.)

Before sending in for repair a second time (thanks to Heil for their
patience), I swapped everything one part at a time and using a KX2 to
swap with my KX3.  That narrowed it down to the headset and it's
internal wiring fault causing I*R type coupling.  Sure sounds like RF
feedback, because it's quite similar in some ways.

Opened up the box from the repair depot.  No more wiring fault.  No
more feedback.  I could crank up the monitor level etc with no
problem.   (I do like monitor for phone, but somewhere around 5, not
the full scale 30.)

Love the big bulky heavy over the ear headphones.  :-)

Best regards,

Drew
n7da

On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 6:08 PM Drew Arnett  wrote:
>
> Ignored this for quite a while, but came back to take a look this
> morning.  Sharing in case it helps someone else out in the future.
>
> I think the jack on the headset itself has an intermittent and/or
> faulty connection.  That's why trying the straight cable (which I
> never use) as Heil suggested didn't help me narrow it down before.  (I
> always used the curly cable and left the straight one in the box.)
>
> Symptoms I see today:
>
> KX3 on battery.  RF power level set to 0 watts (so no RF feedback of
> course).  Mon set to 4.
>
> Gear:  Pro 7 headset.  Heil Y cable (for mic/foot switch) but using
> the little hand/button switch Heil includes, a cheap pair of Walkman
> style earphones, and a homebrew electret handmic (that also requires
> 5V bias).
>
> No difference between curly cord that I normally use and the straight
> cable that I never took out of the box.
>
> In all cases, I use the Y cable.
>
> Notice the combinations that work and don't work:
> * walkman head phones & homebrew handmic - works OK
> * walkman head phones & pro 7 mic - works OK
> * pro 7 headphones & homebrew handmic - works OK
> * pro 7 headphones & pro 7 mic - ***PROBLEM***
>
> I suspect the feedback path is due to wiring fault causing the
> headphone audio return to share path with microphone return causing
> IxR coupling.  (I hate the term ground loop, but there you go.)
>
> Wiggle testing.  Nothing at the jack/plug interfaces on the radio
> (mic, headphone).  Nothing on the jack/plug interfaces on the Y cable.
> Ah, the jack/plug on the headset definitely has some sort of
> mechanical intermittent at the least.  And it does for both the curly
> cable and the straight cable.  So, it's the headset and not the cable.
> :-(
>
> So, off to Heil for repair.  (Looks like snap plastic/spudger tool
> work, which I'm not really interested in doing.)  Or to perhaps shop
> for something more reliable?
>
> Best regards,
>
> Drew
> n7da
>
> On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 9:05 PM Drew Arnett  wrote:
> >
> > No luck sorting this out in the field during FD, especially with a
> > workaround available.  (Alternative mic.)  I'd like to resolve it if
> > possible before replacing the Pro 7, the KX3, or both.  :-O  So, now
> > that I'm unpacked at home, I'll try a simple setup for debugging.
> >
> > Trouble shooting setup now:  KX3 (with new, charged internal NiMH),
> > Pro 7 with Y cable and that little clip on PTT switch they include, 3
> > FT coax to (shielded) dummy load.  Electret mic element.  MIC BIAS on,
> > CMP 0, PWR 5, 14 MHz, SSB.
> >
> > With MON 0, no RF output indicated while transmitting and speaking or
> > whistling for MIC GAIN 0 to 80.
> >
> > With MON 3 (a level I like for CW sidetone) and PTT on, doesn't matter
> > if I'm speaking/whistling or not.  The RF output indicates nothing
> > until about MIC GAIN 70 when it abruptly comes up with a harsh sound.
> > Other electret microphone sounds fine at MIC GAIN 60.
> >
> > This is probably something simple.  I just haven't found it, yet.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Drew
> > n7da
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 3:36 AM Drew Arnett  wrote:
> > >
> > > Shield of mic jack goes to bare metal Elecraft thoughtfully left on
> > > the chassis metal.  10 nF shunt to ground.  (Need to see where that
> > > is, but hopefully SMT and with very small loop area.)  Sheet 9:
> > > https://ftp.elecraft.com/KX3/Manuals%20Downloads/KX3SchematicDiagramDec2012.pdf
> > >
> > > Heil suggests on their tips page generous ferrite choking of all 3
> > > leads of their Y adapter cable:
> > > https://heilhamradio.com/support/tips/
> > >
> > > Drew
> > > n7da
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 3:23 AM Drew Arnett  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > In the KX3 for Field Day department, we plan to use it for the GOTA
> > > > station for phone on HF.  (Yes, will have antennas not on top of each
> > > > other and bandpass filters on ALL radios.)  Would be great to setup
> > > > with a headset and foot switch.
> > > >
> > > > Last weekend, I used my KX3 barefoot on 6 and with a
> > > > 

Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Dave Fugleberg]

Jim's comments ring true for me tooHeadphones are a very personal
choice, and simply MUST be tried to see if they work for YOU.  I own a
couple of Heil Pro-sets, and a Heil 'Traveler', plus various others. One of
my favorites has been a relatively inexpensive 'gaming' headset from
Kingston, one of several 'HyperX' models they sell.  It's marked HX-HSCS-BK
Cloud Stinger.  It has 3.5mm plugs for the mic and headphones, similar to
the Pro-set...I can plug them into the rear jacks on my K3 in place of the
Heil Proset-iC, and they just work.  Very comfortable (for me).  About $35
on Amazon right now. I paid a little more than that at Microcenter when I
bought them awhile back, but they had a display with a bunch of gaming
headsets where you could actually examine them.  If you have such a store
in your area, it's worth a trip just to see the variety they have and find
something that works for you.  Computer gamers, like hams, often spend long
hours at their 'rig', and are a much larger market, so there's a lot of
choices for comfortable, quality headsets.
Note that these do have the electret mic element and do require an external
voltage to work, but that's just a matter of turning on the 'mic bias'
setting on the K3 (I imagine your KX3 is similar - I don't own one).  As
with any time you change microphones, you'll want to check and adjust EQ,
mic gain, and compression as needed.  Once dialed in, I doubt anyone could
tell the difference over the air between these and any 'high end' ham
headset.
So, if you're looking to replace your headset, computer gaming headsets are
worth consideration...but again, what is comfortable for one ham is painful
for another, so YMMV.

73 de W0ZF

On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 3:08 PM Jim Brown  wrote:

> On 7/2/2022 12:36 PM, Peter Dougherty (W2IRT) wrote:
> > I gave up a long time ago and bought an Arlan
> > Communications radiosport headset. It's more expensive but it's
> absolutely
> > amazing. No clamping on my head,
>
> I had exactly the opposite experience on the two occasions I tried on a
> pair, 3-4 years apart. I found them to be an instrument of torture!
>
> I have a LOT of experience with headphones, have slept wearing Sony and
> Sennheiser headphones tuned to a jazz station for 20+ years, used them
> professionally mixing live recordings, use them now for serious music
> listening. In the shack, I've long used Sony MDR7506 for CW and RTTY,
> Yamaha CM500 for SSB, and find both quite comfortable in weekend-long
> contests.
>
> Headphones are a VERY personal thing, comfort STRONGLY depends on the
> size and shape of our heads and our ears.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Jim Brown]

On 7/2/2022 12:36 PM, Peter Dougherty (W2IRT) wrote:

I gave up a long time ago and bought an Arlan
Communications radiosport headset. It's more expensive but it's absolutely
amazing. No clamping on my head,


I had exactly the opposite experience on the two occasions I tried on a 
pair, 3-4 years apart. I found them to be an instrument of torture!


I have a LOT of experience with headphones, have slept wearing Sony and 
Sennheiser headphones tuned to a jazz station for 20+ years, used them 
professionally mixing live recordings, use them now for serious music 
listening. In the shack, I've long used Sony MDR7506 for CW and RTTY, 
Yamaha CM500 for SSB, and find both quite comfortable in weekend-long 
contests.


Headphones are a VERY personal thing, comfort STRONGLY depends on the 
size and shape of our heads and our ears.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Peter Dougherty (W2IRT)]

I have never owned a Heil that didn't give me problems at some point in its
life. It's always something. I gave up a long time ago and bought an Arlan
Communications radiosport headset. It's more expensive but it's absolutely
amazing. No clamping on my head, no mechanical construction problems, and
dare I say it, mechanically overbuilt for severe duty. I would trust their
products for communicating on a desert island or the southern ocean. It Just
Works.

 - pjd

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On
Behalf Of Drew Arnett
Sent: Saturday, July 2, 2022 2:08 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

Ignored this for quite a while, but came back to take a look this morning.
Sharing in case it helps someone else out in the future.

I think the jack on the headset itself has an intermittent and/or faulty
connection.  That's why trying the straight cable (which I never use) as
Heil suggested didn't help me narrow it down before.  (I always used the
curly cable and left the straight one in the box.)

Symptoms I see today:

KX3 on battery.  RF power level set to 0 watts (so no RF feedback of
course).  Mon set to 4.

Gear:  Pro 7 headset.  Heil Y cable (for mic/foot switch) but using the
little hand/button switch Heil includes, a cheap pair of Walkman style
earphones, and a homebrew electret handmic (that also requires 5V bias).

No difference between curly cord that I normally use and the straight cable
that I never took out of the box.

In all cases, I use the Y cable.

Notice the combinations that work and don't work:
* walkman head phones & homebrew handmic - works OK
* walkman head phones & pro 7 mic - works OK
* pro 7 headphones & homebrew handmic - works OK
* pro 7 headphones & pro 7 mic - ***PROBLEM***

I suspect the feedback path is due to wiring fault causing the headphone
audio return to share path with microphone return causing IxR coupling.  (I
hate the term ground loop, but there you go.)

Wiggle testing.  Nothing at the jack/plug interfaces on the radio (mic,
headphone).  Nothing on the jack/plug interfaces on the Y cable.
Ah, the jack/plug on the headset definitely has some sort of mechanical
intermittent at the least.  And it does for both the curly cable and the
straight cable.  So, it's the headset and not the cable.
:-(

So, off to Heil for repair.  (Looks like snap plastic/spudger tool work,
which I'm not really interested in doing.)  Or to perhaps shop for something
more reliable?

Best regards,

Drew
n7da

On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 9:05 PM Drew Arnett  wrote:
>
> No luck sorting this out in the field during FD, especially with a 
> workaround available.  (Alternative mic.)  I'd like to resolve it if 
> possible before replacing the Pro 7, the KX3, or both.  :-O  So, now 
> that I'm unpacked at home, I'll try a simple setup for debugging.
>
> Trouble shooting setup now:  KX3 (with new, charged internal NiMH), 
> Pro 7 with Y cable and that little clip on PTT switch they include, 3 
> FT coax to (shielded) dummy load.  Electret mic element.  MIC BIAS on, 
> CMP 0, PWR 5, 14 MHz, SSB.
>
> With MON 0, no RF output indicated while transmitting and speaking or 
> whistling for MIC GAIN 0 to 80.
>
> With MON 3 (a level I like for CW sidetone) and PTT on, doesn't matter 
> if I'm speaking/whistling or not.  The RF output indicates nothing 
> until about MIC GAIN 70 when it abruptly comes up with a harsh sound.
> Other electret microphone sounds fine at MIC GAIN 60.
>
> This is probably something simple.  I just haven't found it, yet.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drew
> n7da
>
> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 3:36 AM Drew Arnett  wrote:
> >
> > Shield of mic jack goes to bare metal Elecraft thoughtfully left on 
> > the chassis metal.  10 nF shunt to ground.  (Need to see where that 
> > is, but hopefully SMT and with very small loop area.)  Sheet 9:
> > https://ftp.elecraft.com/KX3/Manuals%20Downloads/KX3SchematicDiagram
> > Dec2012.pdf
> >
> > Heil suggests on their tips page generous ferrite choking of all 3 
> > leads of their Y adapter cable:
> > https://heilhamradio.com/support/tips/
> >
> > Drew
> > n7da
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 3:23 AM Drew Arnett 
wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > In the KX3 for Field Day department, we plan to use it for the 
> > > GOTA station for phone on HF.  (Yes, will have antennas not on top 
> > > of each other and bandpass filters on ALL radios.)  Would be great 
> > > to setup with a headset and foot switch.
> > >
> > > Last weekend, I used my KX3 barefoot on 6 and with a 
> > > transverters-store.com transverter (also barefoot) for 2.  6m 
> > > antenna was 2 elements about 15 ft above the ground and 2m ante

Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Drew Arnett]

Ignored this for quite a while, but came back to take a look this
morning.  Sharing in case it helps someone else out in the future.

I think the jack on the headset itself has an intermittent and/or
faulty connection.  That's why trying the straight cable (which I
never use) as Heil suggested didn't help me narrow it down before.  (I
always used the curly cable and left the straight one in the box.)

Symptoms I see today:

KX3 on battery.  RF power level set to 0 watts (so no RF feedback of
course).  Mon set to 4.

Gear:  Pro 7 headset.  Heil Y cable (for mic/foot switch) but using
the little hand/button switch Heil includes, a cheap pair of Walkman
style earphones, and a homebrew electret handmic (that also requires
5V bias).

No difference between curly cord that I normally use and the straight
cable that I never took out of the box.

In all cases, I use the Y cable.

Notice the combinations that work and don't work:
* walkman head phones & homebrew handmic - works OK
* walkman head phones & pro 7 mic - works OK
* pro 7 headphones & homebrew handmic - works OK
* pro 7 headphones & pro 7 mic - ***PROBLEM***

I suspect the feedback path is due to wiring fault causing the
headphone audio return to share path with microphone return causing
IxR coupling.  (I hate the term ground loop, but there you go.)

Wiggle testing.  Nothing at the jack/plug interfaces on the radio
(mic, headphone).  Nothing on the jack/plug interfaces on the Y cable.
Ah, the jack/plug on the headset definitely has some sort of
mechanical intermittent at the least.  And it does for both the curly
cable and the straight cable.  So, it's the headset and not the cable.
:-(

So, off to Heil for repair.  (Looks like snap plastic/spudger tool
work, which I'm not really interested in doing.)  Or to perhaps shop
for something more reliable?

Best regards,

Drew
n7da

On Sat, Jul 3, 2021 at 9:05 PM Drew Arnett  wrote:
>
> No luck sorting this out in the field during FD, especially with a
> workaround available.  (Alternative mic.)  I'd like to resolve it if
> possible before replacing the Pro 7, the KX3, or both.  :-O  So, now
> that I'm unpacked at home, I'll try a simple setup for debugging.
>
> Trouble shooting setup now:  KX3 (with new, charged internal NiMH),
> Pro 7 with Y cable and that little clip on PTT switch they include, 3
> FT coax to (shielded) dummy load.  Electret mic element.  MIC BIAS on,
> CMP 0, PWR 5, 14 MHz, SSB.
>
> With MON 0, no RF output indicated while transmitting and speaking or
> whistling for MIC GAIN 0 to 80.
>
> With MON 3 (a level I like for CW sidetone) and PTT on, doesn't matter
> if I'm speaking/whistling or not.  The RF output indicates nothing
> until about MIC GAIN 70 when it abruptly comes up with a harsh sound.
> Other electret microphone sounds fine at MIC GAIN 60.
>
> This is probably something simple.  I just haven't found it, yet.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Drew
> n7da
>
> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 3:36 AM Drew Arnett  wrote:
> >
> > Shield of mic jack goes to bare metal Elecraft thoughtfully left on
> > the chassis metal.  10 nF shunt to ground.  (Need to see where that
> > is, but hopefully SMT and with very small loop area.)  Sheet 9:
> > https://ftp.elecraft.com/KX3/Manuals%20Downloads/KX3SchematicDiagramDec2012.pdf
> >
> > Heil suggests on their tips page generous ferrite choking of all 3
> > leads of their Y adapter cable:
> > https://heilhamradio.com/support/tips/
> >
> > Drew
> > n7da
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 3:23 AM Drew Arnett  wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > In the KX3 for Field Day department, we plan to use it for the GOTA
> > > station for phone on HF.  (Yes, will have antennas not on top of each
> > > other and bandpass filters on ALL radios.)  Would be great to setup
> > > with a headset and foot switch.
> > >
> > > Last weekend, I used my KX3 barefoot on 6 and with a
> > > transverters-store.com transverter (also barefoot) for 2.  6m antenna
> > > was 2 elements about 15 ft above the ground and 2m antenna 6 elements
> > > at 10 feet above the ground.
> > >
> > > I worked a couple of contacts on 2m phone with the headset.  Later,
> > > when I tried to use the headset for phone on 6, seemed like I was
> > > having a feedback problem.  Cabling was the stock cabling that comes
> > > with the Heil Pro 7 headset and a footswitch.  Monitor was on and set
> > > to 4.
> > >
> > > So, ALC didn't indicate anything at the normal level (60), and
> > > increasing it very abruptly caused horrible sounding audio.  (Yes,
> > > acts like positive feedback.)
> > >
> > > I have a small electret mic on a 1/8 plug thing I bought some time ago
> > > from the computer store.  (Meant at the time for adding mic to
> > > laptops.)  I have a 1/8" audio extension cable for it.  I plugged that
> > > in instead of the headset mic and it seemed to act normally.
> > >
> > > Is this purely an RF from the TX antenna getting into the mic audio
> > > problem or is it something else?
> > >
> > > Best practice to avoid this 

Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Walter Underwood]

I don’t know how their Y cable is wired, but a simple wiring will tie the 
logic bias (mic buttons) and mic bias together. That gives a lower bias
voltage and lower mic output for some mics. It also adds some noise, 
because the logic bias isn’t as clean as the mic bias.

You can split out the mic bias with a stereo splitter. Details in this blog 
post:

https://observer.wunderwood.org/2015/08/16/yamaha-cm500-headset-with-ptt-on-elecraft-kx3/
 


wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Jul 3, 2021, at 2:05 PM, Drew Arnett  wrote:
> 
> No luck sorting this out in the field during FD, especially with a
> workaround available.  (Alternative mic.)  I'd like to resolve it if
> possible before replacing the Pro 7, the KX3, or both.  :-O  So, now
> that I'm unpacked at home, I'll try a simple setup for debugging.
> 
> Trouble shooting setup now:  KX3 (with new, charged internal NiMH),
> Pro 7 with Y cable and that little clip on PTT switch they include, 3
> FT coax to (shielded) dummy load.  Electret mic element.  MIC BIAS on,
> CMP 0, PWR 5, 14 MHz, SSB.
> 
> With MON 0, no RF output indicated while transmitting and speaking or
> whistling for MIC GAIN 0 to 80.
> 
> With MON 3 (a level I like for CW sidetone) and PTT on, doesn't matter
> if I'm speaking/whistling or not.  The RF output indicates nothing
> until about MIC GAIN 70 when it abruptly comes up with a harsh sound.
> Other electret microphone sounds fine at MIC GAIN 60.
> 
> This is probably something simple.  I just haven't found it, yet.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Drew
> n7da
> 
> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 3:36 AM Drew Arnett  wrote:
>> 
>> Shield of mic jack goes to bare metal Elecraft thoughtfully left on
>> the chassis metal.  10 nF shunt to ground.  (Need to see where that
>> is, but hopefully SMT and with very small loop area.)  Sheet 9:
>> https://ftp.elecraft.com/KX3/Manuals%20Downloads/KX3SchematicDiagramDec2012.pdf
>> 
>> Heil suggests on their tips page generous ferrite choking of all 3
>> leads of their Y adapter cable:
>> https://heilhamradio.com/support/tips/
>> 
>> Drew
>> n7da
>> 
>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 3:23 AM Drew Arnett  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> In the KX3 for Field Day department, we plan to use it for the GOTA
>>> station for phone on HF.  (Yes, will have antennas not on top of each
>>> other and bandpass filters on ALL radios.)  Would be great to setup
>>> with a headset and foot switch.
>>> 
>>> Last weekend, I used my KX3 barefoot on 6 and with a
>>> transverters-store.com transverter (also barefoot) for 2.  6m antenna
>>> was 2 elements about 15 ft above the ground and 2m antenna 6 elements
>>> at 10 feet above the ground.
>>> 
>>> I worked a couple of contacts on 2m phone with the headset.  Later,
>>> when I tried to use the headset for phone on 6, seemed like I was
>>> having a feedback problem.  Cabling was the stock cabling that comes
>>> with the Heil Pro 7 headset and a footswitch.  Monitor was on and set
>>> to 4.
>>> 
>>> So, ALC didn't indicate anything at the normal level (60), and
>>> increasing it very abruptly caused horrible sounding audio.  (Yes,
>>> acts like positive feedback.)
>>> 
>>> I have a small electret mic on a 1/8 plug thing I bought some time ago
>>> from the computer store.  (Meant at the time for adding mic to
>>> laptops.)  I have a 1/8" audio extension cable for it.  I plugged that
>>> in instead of the headset mic and it seemed to act normally.
>>> 
>>> Is this purely an RF from the TX antenna getting into the mic audio
>>> problem or is it something else?
>>> 
>>> Best practice to avoid this problem?
>>> 
>>> On my todo list:
>>> - ask here
>>> - look at KX3 schematic to see if it has RF ingress mitigation on the mic 
>>> jack
>>> - ask Heil
>>> - unplug the Heil mic element and gator clip my cheap electret mic on
>>> instead and try on 6m in driveway with identical antenna/mast/radio
>>> setup
>>> - look for or assemble an RF filter to inline with the mic jack (tough
>>> to do with this little time
>>> before field day)
>>> 
>>> Thanks and best regards,
>>> 
>>> Drew
>>> n7da
>>> 
>>> ps.  Other than this, KX3 was great in the VHF test.  Worked great
>>> with the transverter on 2 and was a lot of fun running barefoot with
>>> the sporadic E opening Saturday afternoon & evening.
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Post: 

Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Drew Arnett]

No luck sorting this out in the field during FD, especially with a
workaround available.  (Alternative mic.)  I'd like to resolve it if
possible before replacing the Pro 7, the KX3, or both.  :-O  So, now
that I'm unpacked at home, I'll try a simple setup for debugging.

Trouble shooting setup now:  KX3 (with new, charged internal NiMH),
Pro 7 with Y cable and that little clip on PTT switch they include, 3
FT coax to (shielded) dummy load.  Electret mic element.  MIC BIAS on,
CMP 0, PWR 5, 14 MHz, SSB.

With MON 0, no RF output indicated while transmitting and speaking or
whistling for MIC GAIN 0 to 80.

With MON 3 (a level I like for CW sidetone) and PTT on, doesn't matter
if I'm speaking/whistling or not.  The RF output indicates nothing
until about MIC GAIN 70 when it abruptly comes up with a harsh sound.
Other electret microphone sounds fine at MIC GAIN 60.

This is probably something simple.  I just haven't found it, yet.

Thanks,

Drew
n7da

On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 3:36 AM Drew Arnett  wrote:
>
> Shield of mic jack goes to bare metal Elecraft thoughtfully left on
> the chassis metal.  10 nF shunt to ground.  (Need to see where that
> is, but hopefully SMT and with very small loop area.)  Sheet 9:
> https://ftp.elecraft.com/KX3/Manuals%20Downloads/KX3SchematicDiagramDec2012.pdf
>
> Heil suggests on their tips page generous ferrite choking of all 3
> leads of their Y adapter cable:
> https://heilhamradio.com/support/tips/
>
> Drew
> n7da
>
> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 3:23 AM Drew Arnett  wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > In the KX3 for Field Day department, we plan to use it for the GOTA
> > station for phone on HF.  (Yes, will have antennas not on top of each
> > other and bandpass filters on ALL radios.)  Would be great to setup
> > with a headset and foot switch.
> >
> > Last weekend, I used my KX3 barefoot on 6 and with a
> > transverters-store.com transverter (also barefoot) for 2.  6m antenna
> > was 2 elements about 15 ft above the ground and 2m antenna 6 elements
> > at 10 feet above the ground.
> >
> > I worked a couple of contacts on 2m phone with the headset.  Later,
> > when I tried to use the headset for phone on 6, seemed like I was
> > having a feedback problem.  Cabling was the stock cabling that comes
> > with the Heil Pro 7 headset and a footswitch.  Monitor was on and set
> > to 4.
> >
> > So, ALC didn't indicate anything at the normal level (60), and
> > increasing it very abruptly caused horrible sounding audio.  (Yes,
> > acts like positive feedback.)
> >
> > I have a small electret mic on a 1/8 plug thing I bought some time ago
> > from the computer store.  (Meant at the time for adding mic to
> > laptops.)  I have a 1/8" audio extension cable for it.  I plugged that
> > in instead of the headset mic and it seemed to act normally.
> >
> > Is this purely an RF from the TX antenna getting into the mic audio
> > problem or is it something else?
> >
> > Best practice to avoid this problem?
> >
> > On my todo list:
> > - ask here
> > - look at KX3 schematic to see if it has RF ingress mitigation on the mic 
> > jack
> > - ask Heil
> > - unplug the Heil mic element and gator clip my cheap electret mic on
> > instead and try on 6m in driveway with identical antenna/mast/radio
> > setup
> > - look for or assemble an RF filter to inline with the mic jack (tough
> > to do with this little time
> > before field day)
> >
> > Thanks and best regards,
> >
> > Drew
> > n7da
> >
> > ps.  Other than this, KX3 was great in the VHF test.  Worked great
> > with the transverter on 2 and was a lot of fun running barefoot with
> > the sporadic E opening Saturday afternoon & evening.
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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Ed Cole]

My hearing aids have blue tooth but require an interface to use it with 
my iphone.  The interface is a wireless remote control for the hearing 
aids and came with a very small thing that plugs into audio sources via 
a mini-phone plug.  That sends the sound via BT to the remote and on to 
my hearing aids.  Haven't used it much but that might work better than a 
headset.  I didn't note any latency.


I have a K3, KX3, and new IC9700 which all provide ext audio. The issue 
for lengthy use is the remote rechargeable battery life is short (maybe 
two hours).


Note to Jim:  Yes I realize its audio feedback in the CM500. Have no 
problem using my Sony MVR-V600 headphones or my Bose noise-cancelling 
headset.  Suggestion that I wear headphones without hearing aids does 
not work for me.  Hearing loss is not just a factor of amplitude (I 
cannot hear tones above 4-KHz). Loss is >100 dB.  My hearing aids 
provide 22 channel digital processing and I still need closed captioning 
watching TV.


Digital modes are best for doing weak-signal ham radio as I can see the 
computer FB.


Ed - KL7UW


Message: 7
Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2021 12:04:25 -0700
From: Rick NK7I 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?
Message-ID: <21dc0253-acd8-71a6-e9aa-4341a183c...@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

Slight topic change, apologies.

Has anyone used rx audio via Bluetooth into their hearing aids? Any issues?

I was hoping the K4 would have BT audio, but it doesn't.? So the next
best option would be to send the sound card audio to BT in a computer,
linked to the aids or headset...? I don't have my K4 yet, so it's a guess.

73,
Rick NK7I


On 6/18/2021 11:58 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 6/18/2021 11:34 AM, Ed Cole wrote:

I wear hearing aids and the CM500 immediately set up a loud howl the
minute I put them on (even with not being plugged into the radio).?
Apparently my hearing aid gain is so high the CM500 provided feedback
to the hearing aid mics - I have two with my OTE (over the ear)
hearing aids.

That's acoustic interaction of the earphones with your aids, and
depends on the placement of the mics in the aids. Mics for the aids
are picking up their own amplified sound, because the acoustic space
around the ear is modified by the presence of the earphones. In sound
systems, we call that feedback. It makes sense that different
headphones would interact differently with aids, depending on the
construction of both.

My XYL uses aids where the mics are outside the ear. She doesn't use
headphones when she's wearing them.

73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[James Bennett via Elecraft]

It seems to depend on the headset being used. I have an IC-705 (my K-line is 
packed in storage currently) and have tried Bluetooth with it. Using several 
different BT headsets (Bose QC, Apple Air Pods, Avantree) it was an utter 
failure on CW. However, I recently got an Srhythm NC35 noise cancelling headset 
from Amazon. It works wonderfully on CW - zero latency to be detected. I 
operated several times in the CWops Wednesday night get togethers (high-speed 
CW) and THIS bluetooth headset was perfect. That being said, I am unaware what 
version of BT the ‘705 is using. But, one shouldn’t completely abandon the 
technology - it can work in certain circumstances.

Jim / K7TXA

> On Jun 18, 2021, at 1:23 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> On 6/18/2021 12:04 PM, Rick NK7I wrote:
>> Has anyone used rx audio via Bluetooth into their hearing aids? Any issues?
> 
> The important (and killer) issue with Bluetooth is latency when you try to 
> run CW. The delay makes it impossible to send with any form of bug, paddle, 
> or straight key. The delay is also be problematic if you try to monitor 
> yourself on SSB. When I was doing live sound for large crowds outdoors, I 
> heard very professional announcers slow down and stop talking when they heard 
> themselves coming back through the system 100 msec late.
> 
> There are (at least) two forms of BlueTooth. The one for shorter distances 
> (lower power) has less latency than the other. Both would be a killer for CW, 
> but the shorter one might not be too bad for monitoring our own transmission 
> on SSB.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Jim Brown]

On 6/18/2021 12:04 PM, Rick NK7I wrote:

Has anyone used rx audio via Bluetooth into their hearing aids? Any issues?


The important (and killer) issue with Bluetooth is latency when you try 
to run CW. The delay makes it impossible to send with any form of bug, 
paddle, or straight key. The delay is also be problematic if you try to 
monitor yourself on SSB. When I was doing live sound for large crowds 
outdoors, I heard very professional announcers slow down and stop 
talking when they heard themselves coming back through the system 100 
msec late.


There are (at least) two forms of BlueTooth. The one for shorter 
distances (lower power) has less latency than the other. Both would be a 
killer for CW, but the shorter one might not be too bad for monitoring 
our own transmission on SSB.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Rick NK7I]

Slight topic change, apologies.

Has anyone used rx audio via Bluetooth into their hearing aids? Any issues?

I was hoping the K4 would have BT audio, but it doesn't.  So the next 
best option would be to send the sound card audio to BT in a computer, 
linked to the aids or headset...  I don't have my K4 yet, so it's a guess.


73,
Rick NK7I


On 6/18/2021 11:58 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 6/18/2021 11:34 AM, Ed Cole wrote:
I wear hearing aids and the CM500 immediately set up a loud howl the 
minute I put them on (even with not being plugged into the radio).  
Apparently my hearing aid gain is so high the CM500 provided feedback 
to the hearing aid mics - I have two with my OTE (over the ear) 
hearing aids.


That's acoustic interaction of the earphones with your aids, and 
depends on the placement of the mics in the aids. Mics for the aids 
are picking up their own amplified sound, because the acoustic space 
around the ear is modified by the presence of the earphones. In sound 
systems, we call that feedback. It makes sense that different 
headphones would interact differently with aids, depending on the 
construction of both.


My XYL uses aids where the mics are outside the ear. She doesn't use 
headphones when she's wearing them.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Jim Brown]

On 6/18/2021 11:34 AM, Ed Cole wrote:
I wear hearing aids and the CM500 immediately set up a loud howl the 
minute I put them on (even with not being plugged into the radio).  
Apparently my hearing  aid gain is so high the CM500 provided feedback 
to the hearing aid mics - I have two with my OTE (over the ear) hearing 
aids.


That's acoustic interaction of the earphones with your aids, and depends 
on the placement of the mics in the aids. Mics for the aids are picking 
up their own amplified sound, because the acoustic space around the ear 
is modified by the presence of the earphones. In sound systems, we call 
that feedback. It makes sense that different headphones would interact 
differently with aids, depending on the construction of both.


My XYL uses aids where the mics are outside the ear. She doesn't use 
headphones when she's wearing them.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Ed Cole]

Here we go again:  "The favorite headset topic".

Most of you who have been on this list a few years might recall when I 
tried out a Yamaha CM500 headset.  I wear hearing aids and the CM500 
immediately set up a loud howl the minute I put them on (even with not 
being plugged into the radio).  Apparently my hearing  aid gain is so 
high the CM500 provided feedback to the hearing aid mics - I have two 
with my OTE (over the ear) hearing aids.  I sold the brand new Yamaha to 
a reader for a good discount.


For  years I have worn a Sony stereo headset.  So to add a boom mic I 
bought the AntLion unit.  It has a nice earth magnet button that one 
sticks onto the headset.  The mic boom attaches nicely with magnetics.  
On air reports good with standard or cardiod pattern selected.


I've only used it with my K3/10, so this does not directly answer use on 
the KX3 (which I also have).


Big soft foam ear muffs are comfortable over my hearing aids for hours 
of use.  "If it ain't broke, why change".  I use a venerable old Heil 
HM10 desk mic on the K3 when not needing a boom mic.


Ed - KL7UW

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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[hb9cvq]

I use mostly Heil Headsets for a long time. My latest with the FTDX101MP is 
Heil RED Pro 7 (with red contest cartridge) . 
Right after the TRX audio output and mike input I always have a Ferrite N30 7 
windings on each shielded cable. 
The monitor (listening to SDRs e.g.) plug/shielded cable is blocked right at 
the headset with a small N30 core. 
The 1.5m long shielded audio cable goes to my station notebook. 
All is several times ferrite blocked and separated by a suitable audio 
transformer before going into the computer audio out.

I also own a Bose Aviation A20 Headset (over 1K$) with super active noise 
cancellation. 
Guess what, into the spiral shielded cable I had to put a 10cm ferrite rod ( Hi 
permeability, positioned toward electronic battery unit ) to finally kill all 
RFI. 
It goes without saying mike cable and phone cable are both ferrite core blocked 
right at the transceiver K3S.

In my Club CW Contests and FD I use Bose Quiet Comfort 25 (260$ around at that 
time?) - with N30 ferrite at the radio... I needed to build an extra audio 
attenuator to get to my wanted very low audio level.

My other older Heil (Headset) systems have all ferrite cores towards the radio.

Bose is most comfortable in my opinion...


Tnx, Cu, vy 73 de Andy
HB9CVQ, DK2VQ, AK4IG

https://www.qrz.com/db/HB9CVQ




-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of Jim Brown
Sent: Freitag, 18. Juni 2021 02:29
To: Reflector Elecraft 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

On 6/17/2021 2:12 PM, Hank wrote:
> I dislike my CM500’s. They are uncomfortable to wear for an extended period 
> of time. 

That's a GREAT reason for not liking them. And comfort in headsets is a very 
individual thing -- all of us a built a bit differently. I had that experience 
when I tried on the very expensive aviation-style headsets which are being sold 
to hams, and which some guys find quite comfortable. And after a few years when 
I heard a local contester saying how comfy they were, I tried them on again at 
a hamfest, with the same result. :)

I do have RFI issues with them when running full power on HF SSB.

What makes you certain that either headset is related to the RFI issue? 
There are MANY mechanisms that can be the cause, especially failure to do 
proper bonding.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Walter Underwood]

That happened to me with the Koss SB-45. The ear cups are smaller than those on 
the CM500, so they sat on my ears instead of around them. Really uncomfortable.

https://observer.wunderwood.org/2021/01/27/koss-sb-45-vs-yamaha-cm500/ 


wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Jun 17, 2021, at 5:28 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> On 6/17/2021 2:12 PM, Hank wrote:
>> I dislike my CM500’s. They are uncomfortable to wear for an extended period 
>> of time. 
> 
> That's a GREAT reason for not liking them. And comfort in headsets is a very 
> individual thing -- all of us a built a bit differently. I had that 
> experience when I tried on the very expensive aviation-style headsets which 
> are being sold to hams, and which some guys find quite comfortable. And after 
> a few years when I heard a local contester saying how comfy they were, I 
> tried them on again at a hamfest, with the same result. :)
> 
> I do have RFI issues with them when running full power on HF SSB.
> 
> What makes you certain that either headset is related to the RFI issue? There 
> are MANY mechanisms that can be the cause, especially failure to do proper 
> bonding.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Jim Brown]

On 6/17/2021 2:12 PM, Hank wrote:
I dislike my CM500’s. They are uncomfortable to wear for an extended period of time. 


That's a GREAT reason for not liking them. And comfort in headsets is a 
very individual thing -- all of us a built a bit differently. I had that 
experience when I tried on the very expensive aviation-style headsets 
which are being sold to hams, and which some guys find quite 
comfortable. And after a few years when I heard a local contester saying 
how comfy they were, I tried them on again at a hamfest, with the same 
result. :)


I do have RFI issues with them when running full power on HF SSB.

What makes you certain that either headset is related to the RFI issue? 
There are MANY mechanisms that can be the cause, especially failure to 
do proper bonding.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Jim Brown]

On 6/17/2021 2:00 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

Is there an advantage to using a electret microphone over a dynamic mic for
ham radio communication? Elecraft is the first transceiver that I have owned
where either type will easily work.


No. What matters most are sound quality and operating convenience. An 
important advantage of a boom mic headset is that it maintains a 
constant distance from the mouth -- loudness varies as the square of the 
distance, so it minimizes variations in loudness.


The only shortcoming of the Yamaha set that I've run into is the 
fragility of the cable. I'm hard on cans, and I've had to replace them 
twice over about 12 years.


73, Jim K9YC


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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Hank via Elecraft]

Some pretty bold generalizations except for pricing maybe and Heil’s industry 
associations. 

I dislike my CM500’s. They are uncomfortable to wear for an extended period of 
time. I do have RFI issues with them when running full power on HF SSB. 

I have an older Heil headset - not sure which model - came with a used IC-7700 
several years ago. It plugs directly into the back Of the K3s. I get better 
audio reports with it than the Yamaha’s. All fairly subjective.  I do have RFI 
issues with the Heil headset also. 

I am lucky enough to have used one of Bob’s mixing desks and a B-3 he had 
modified during a repair.  He’s not a hack. 

Hank
K4HYJ

> On Jun 17, 2021, at 3:42 AM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> Heil products are wildly overpriced and highly over-rated. No ham needs a 
> boom mic headset better than a Yamaha CM500, which sounds great both in the 
> headphones and one the air, is very comfortable, costs about $60, and has 
> ZERO RFI issues. I'm a Fellow of the Audio Engineering Society, have a 
> storage room full of great mics far better than anything Heil makes, do very 
> serious contesting. and I've used nothing but the CM500 for more than ten 
> years. What pro audio folks say about Bose applies equally to Heil -- "better 
> sound through marketing."
> 
> The CM500 plugs straight into the back of an version of a K3 (and probably a 
> K4), and I'll be happy to list TXEQ settings that make it sound FAR better 
> than Heil headset mics.
> 
> I've been a member of the AES Standards Committee Working Group on 
> Microphones for almost 30 years, and I've never met Bob Heil or anyone from 
> his company. That should tell you something about how "professional" he and 
> his company are. :)  This whole thing about "I did sound for XXX rock band 
> is, as my Black friends would say, "a whole bunch of shuck and jive."
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
>> On 6/16/2021 8:36 PM, Drew Arnett wrote:
>> Shield of mic jack goes to bare metal Elecraft thoughtfully left on
>> the chassis metal.  10 nF shunt to ground.  (Need to see where that
>> is, but hopefully SMT and with very small loop area.)  Sheet 9:
>> https://ftp.elecraft.com/KX3/Manuals%20Downloads/KX3SchematicDiagramDec2012.pdf
>> Heil suggests on their tips page generous ferrite choking of all 3
>> leads of their Y adapter cable:
>> https://heilhamradio.com/support/tips/
>> Drew
>> n7da
>>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 3:23 AM Drew Arnett  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> In the KX3 for Field Day department, we plan to use it for the GOTA
>>> station for phone on HF.  (Yes, will have antennas not on top of each
>>> other and bandpass filters on ALL radios.)  Would be great to setup
>>> with a headset and foot switch.
>>> 
>>> Last weekend, I used my KX3 barefoot on 6 and with a
>>> transverters-store.com transverter (also barefoot) for 2.  6m antenna
>>> was 2 elements about 15 ft above the ground and 2m antenna 6 elements
>>> at 10 feet above the ground.
>>> 
>>> I worked a couple of contacts on 2m phone with the headset.  Later,
>>> when I tried to use the headset for phone on 6, seemed like I was
>>> having a feedback problem.  Cabling was the stock cabling that comes
>>> with the Heil Pro 7 headset and a footswitch.  Monitor was on and set
>>> to 4.
>>> 
>>> So, ALC didn't indicate anything at the normal level (60), and
>>> increasing it very abruptly caused horrible sounding audio.  (Yes,
>>> acts like positive feedback.)
>>> 
>>> I have a small electret mic on a 1/8 plug thing I bought some time ago
>>> from the computer store.  (Meant at the time for adding mic to
>>> laptops.)  I have a 1/8" audio extension cable for it.  I plugged that
>>> in instead of the headset mic and it seemed to act normally.
>>> 
>>> Is this purely an RF from the TX antenna getting into the mic audio
>>> problem or is it something else?
>>> 
>>> Best practice to avoid this problem?
>>> 
>>> On my todo list:
>>> - ask here
>>> - look at KX3 schematic to see if it has RF ingress mitigation on the mic 
>>> jack
>>> - ask Heil
>>> - unplug the Heil mic element and gator clip my cheap electret mic on
>>> instead and try on 6m in driveway with identical antenna/mast/radio
>>> setup
>>> - look for or assemble an RF filter to inline with the mic jack (tough
>>> to do with this little time
>>> before field day)
>>> 
>>> Thanks and best regards,
>>> 
>>> Drew
>>> n7da
>>> 
>>> ps.  Other than this, KX3 was great in the VHF test.  Worked great
>>> with the transverter on 2 and was a lot of fun running barefoot with
>>> the sporadic E opening Saturday afternoon & evening.
>> __
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> 
> 

Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[john]

Is there an advantage to using a electret microphone over a dynamic mic for
ham radio communication? Elecraft is the first transceiver that I have owned
where either type will easily work.

John KK9A



Jim Brown K9YC wrote:

Heil products are wildly overpriced and highly over-rated. No ham needs 
a boom mic headset better than a Yamaha CM500, which sounds great both 
in the headphones and one the air, is very comfortable, costs about $60, 
and has ZERO RFI issues. I'm a Fellow of the Audio Engineering Society, 
have a storage room full of great mics far better than anything Heil 
makes, do very serious contesting. and I've used nothing but the CM500 
for more than ten years. What pro audio folks say about Bose applies 
equally to Heil -- "better sound through marketing."

The CM500 plugs straight into the back of an version of a K3 (and 
probably a K4), and I'll be happy to list TXEQ settings that make it 
sound FAR better than Heil headset mics.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Julia Tuttle]

I'd believe it! I've gotten weird noise artifacts before that were actually
"the monitor level is so low that the DAC is running out of bits". Mine
showed up most obviously as harmonics in the sidetone. Try adjusting the
monitor level in CW mode and see if you hear your issue at the lowest
levels but not higher. If you do, you could get an inline attenuator for
the headphones so you can run the AF gain and monitor levels high enough to
sound better.

Cheers,

Julie

On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 2:21 PM Rich  wrote:

> A couple thoughts and questions:
>
> Are you hearing the "RF?" in the headphones?
>
> If so you may want to increase your MONITOR Level.   I have heard what I
> thought was RF in my headphones.  On the air reports were good audio no
> RF.   I believe the real issue was that a LOW Monitor level setting was
> not enough to drive the headphone speakers.   That is my quess, no
> technical data to back that up. When I increased the MONITOR Level the
> audio in my ears was perfect.
>
> Has anyone told you that there is RF on your TX signal?
>
> I would think RF from a 15watt radio should be easily cured with some
> MIX 31 snap on ferrittes
>
> Rich
>
>
>
> On 6/16/2021 23:23 PM, Drew Arnett wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > In the KX3 for Field Day department, we plan to use it for the GOTA
> > station for phone on HF.  (Yes, will have antennas not on top of each
> > other and bandpass filters on ALL radios.)  Would be great to setup
> > with a headset and foot switch.
> >
> > Last weekend, I used my KX3 barefoot on 6 and with a
> > transverters-store.com transverter (also barefoot) for 2.  6m antenna
> > was 2 elements about 15 ft above the ground and 2m antenna 6 elements
> > at 10 feet above the ground.
> >
> > I worked a couple of contacts on 2m phone with the headset.  Later,
> > when I tried to use the headset for phone on 6, seemed like I was
> > having a feedback problem.  Cabling was the stock cabling that comes
> > with the Heil Pro 7 headset and a footswitch.  Monitor was on and set
> > to 4.
> >
> > So, ALC didn't indicate anything at the normal level (60), and
> > increasing it very abruptly caused horrible sounding audio.  (Yes,
> > acts like positive feedback.)
> >
> > I have a small electret mic on a 1/8 plug thing I bought some time ago
> > from the computer store.  (Meant at the time for adding mic to
> > laptops.)  I have a 1/8" audio extension cable for it.  I plugged that
> > in instead of the headset mic and it seemed to act normally.
> >
> > Is this purely an RF from the TX antenna getting into the mic audio
> > problem or is it something else?
> >
> > Best practice to avoid this problem?
> >
> > On my todo list:
> > - ask here
> > - look at KX3 schematic to see if it has RF ingress mitigation on the
> mic jack
> > - ask Heil
> > - unplug the Heil mic element and gator clip my cheap electret mic on
> > instead and try on 6m in driveway with identical antenna/mast/radio
> > setup
> > - look for or assemble an RF filter to inline with the mic jack (tough
> > to do with this little time
> > before field day)
> >
> > Thanks and best regards,
> >
> > Drew
> > n7da
> >
> > ps.  Other than this, KX3 was great in the VHF test.  Worked great
> > with the transverter on 2 and was a lot of fun running barefoot with
> > the sporadic E opening Saturday afternoon & evening.
> > __
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> > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Rich]

A couple thoughts and questions:

Are you hearing the "RF?" in the headphones?

If so you may want to increase your MONITOR Level.   I have heard what I 
thought was RF in my headphones.  On the air reports were good audio no 
RF.   I believe the real issue was that a LOW Monitor level setting was 
not enough to drive the headphone speakers.   That is my quess, no 
technical data to back that up. When I increased the MONITOR Level the 
audio in my ears was perfect.


Has anyone told you that there is RF on your TX signal?

I would think RF from a 15watt radio should be easily cured with some 
MIX 31 snap on ferrittes


Rich



On 6/16/2021 23:23 PM, Drew Arnett wrote:

Hi,

In the KX3 for Field Day department, we plan to use it for the GOTA
station for phone on HF.  (Yes, will have antennas not on top of each
other and bandpass filters on ALL radios.)  Would be great to setup
with a headset and foot switch.

Last weekend, I used my KX3 barefoot on 6 and with a
transverters-store.com transverter (also barefoot) for 2.  6m antenna
was 2 elements about 15 ft above the ground and 2m antenna 6 elements
at 10 feet above the ground.

I worked a couple of contacts on 2m phone with the headset.  Later,
when I tried to use the headset for phone on 6, seemed like I was
having a feedback problem.  Cabling was the stock cabling that comes
with the Heil Pro 7 headset and a footswitch.  Monitor was on and set
to 4.

So, ALC didn't indicate anything at the normal level (60), and
increasing it very abruptly caused horrible sounding audio.  (Yes,
acts like positive feedback.)

I have a small electret mic on a 1/8 plug thing I bought some time ago
from the computer store.  (Meant at the time for adding mic to
laptops.)  I have a 1/8" audio extension cable for it.  I plugged that
in instead of the headset mic and it seemed to act normally.

Is this purely an RF from the TX antenna getting into the mic audio
problem or is it something else?

Best practice to avoid this problem?

On my todo list:
- ask here
- look at KX3 schematic to see if it has RF ingress mitigation on the mic jack
- ask Heil
- unplug the Heil mic element and gator clip my cheap electret mic on
instead and try on 6m in driveway with identical antenna/mast/radio
setup
- look for or assemble an RF filter to inline with the mic jack (tough
to do with this little time
before field day)

Thanks and best regards,

Drew
n7da

ps.  Other than this, KX3 was great in the VHF test.  Worked great
with the transverter on 2 and was a lot of fun running barefoot with
the sporadic E opening Saturday afternoon & evening.
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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Jim Brown]

On 6/17/2021 9:55 AM, AL7CR wrote:

Please list your TXEQ settings.


First (lowest) three bands, max cut, fourth (400 Hz) 6 dB cut, top two 
bands boost 3-6 dB, other bands flat (0 dB). Then set Comp for 10 dB on 
voice peaks, and get signal reports from good listeners. Tell them to 
set their IF fairly wide. If you want more or less lows, tweak 400 Hz.


These settings are for good communications quality, cutting through 
noise and QRM. They are NOT intended to make you sound like HiFi, or 
"full." As Riley Hollingsworth, the guy who before he retired from the 
FCC said, if you want HiFi, buy a broadcast station."


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Walter Underwood]

These are K9YC’s settings along with a procedure for setting compression level. 
The info is all from discussions on this list. Several years ago, a bunch of 
people
shared their TX EQ settings. A few were out in left field, but most were very 
similar
to this.

This is written for the KX3, but the K3 TX EQ is the same.

https://observer.wunderwood.org/2015/09/09/transmit-audio-and-compression-with-the-elecraft-kx3/
 


wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Jun 17, 2021, at 9:55 AM, AL7CR  wrote:
> 
> Please list your TXEQ settings.
> 
> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, at 12:42 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
>> Heil products are wildly overpriced and highly over-rated. No ham needs 
>> a boom mic headset better than a Yamaha CM500, which sounds great both 
>> in the headphones and one the air, is very comfortable, costs about $60, 
>> and has ZERO RFI issues. I'm a Fellow of the Audio Engineering Society, 
>> have a storage room full of great mics far better than anything Heil 
>> makes, do very serious contesting. and I've used nothing but the CM500 
>> for more than ten years. What pro audio folks say about Bose applies 
>> equally to Heil -- "better sound through marketing."
>> 
>> The CM500 plugs straight into the back of an version of a K3 (and 
>> probably a K4), and I'll be happy to list TXEQ settings that make it 
>> sound FAR better than Heil headset mics.
>> 
>> I've been a member of the AES Standards Committee Working Group on 
>> Microphones for almost 30 years, and I've never met Bob Heil or anyone 
>> from his company. That should tell you something about how 
>> "professional" he and his company are. :)  This whole thing about "I did 
>> sound for XXX rock band is, as my Black friends would say, "a whole 
>> bunch of shuck and jive."
>> 
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> 
>> On 6/16/2021 8:36 PM, Drew Arnett wrote:
>>> Shield of mic jack goes to bare metal Elecraft thoughtfully left on
>>> the chassis metal.  10 nF shunt to ground.  (Need to see where that
>>> is, but hopefully SMT and with very small loop area.)  Sheet 9:
>>> https://ftp.elecraft.com/KX3/Manuals%20Downloads/KX3SchematicDiagramDec2012.pdf
>>> 
>>> Heil suggests on their tips page generous ferrite choking of all 3
>>> leads of their Y adapter cable:
>>> https://heilhamradio.com/support/tips/
>>> 
>>> Drew
>>> n7da
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 3:23 AM Drew Arnett  wrote:
 
 Hi,
 
 In the KX3 for Field Day department, we plan to use it for the GOTA
 station for phone on HF.  (Yes, will have antennas not on top of each
 other and bandpass filters on ALL radios.)  Would be great to setup
 with a headset and foot switch.
 
 Last weekend, I used my KX3 barefoot on 6 and with a
 transverters-store.com transverter (also barefoot) for 2.  6m antenna
 was 2 elements about 15 ft above the ground and 2m antenna 6 elements
 at 10 feet above the ground.
 
 I worked a couple of contacts on 2m phone with the headset.  Later,
 when I tried to use the headset for phone on 6, seemed like I was
 having a feedback problem.  Cabling was the stock cabling that comes
 with the Heil Pro 7 headset and a footswitch.  Monitor was on and set
 to 4.
 
 So, ALC didn't indicate anything at the normal level (60), and
 increasing it very abruptly caused horrible sounding audio.  (Yes,
 acts like positive feedback.)
 
 I have a small electret mic on a 1/8 plug thing I bought some time ago
 from the computer store.  (Meant at the time for adding mic to
 laptops.)  I have a 1/8" audio extension cable for it.  I plugged that
 in instead of the headset mic and it seemed to act normally.
 
 Is this purely an RF from the TX antenna getting into the mic audio
 problem or is it something else?
 
 Best practice to avoid this problem?
 
 On my todo list:
 - ask here
 - look at KX3 schematic to see if it has RF ingress mitigation on the mic 
 jack
 - ask Heil
 - unplug the Heil mic element and gator clip my cheap electret mic on
 instead and try on 6m in driveway with identical antenna/mast/radio
 setup
 - look for or assemble an RF filter to inline with the mic jack (tough
 to do with this little time
 before field day)
 
 Thanks and best regards,
 
 Drew
 n7da
 
 ps.  Other than this, KX3 was great in the VHF test.  Worked great
 with the transverter on 2 and was a lot of fun running barefoot with
 the sporadic E opening Saturday afternoon & evening.
>>> __
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>>> 
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help 

Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[AL7CR]

Please list your TXEQ settings.

On Thu, Jun 17, 2021, at 12:42 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
> Heil products are wildly overpriced and highly over-rated. No ham needs 
> a boom mic headset better than a Yamaha CM500, which sounds great both 
> in the headphones and one the air, is very comfortable, costs about $60, 
> and has ZERO RFI issues. I'm a Fellow of the Audio Engineering Society, 
> have a storage room full of great mics far better than anything Heil 
> makes, do very serious contesting. and I've used nothing but the CM500 
> for more than ten years. What pro audio folks say about Bose applies 
> equally to Heil -- "better sound through marketing."
> 
> The CM500 plugs straight into the back of an version of a K3 (and 
> probably a K4), and I'll be happy to list TXEQ settings that make it 
> sound FAR better than Heil headset mics.
> 
> I've been a member of the AES Standards Committee Working Group on 
> Microphones for almost 30 years, and I've never met Bob Heil or anyone 
> from his company. That should tell you something about how 
> "professional" he and his company are. :)  This whole thing about "I did 
> sound for XXX rock band is, as my Black friends would say, "a whole 
> bunch of shuck and jive."
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
> On 6/16/2021 8:36 PM, Drew Arnett wrote:
> > Shield of mic jack goes to bare metal Elecraft thoughtfully left on
> > the chassis metal.  10 nF shunt to ground.  (Need to see where that
> > is, but hopefully SMT and with very small loop area.)  Sheet 9:
> > https://ftp.elecraft.com/KX3/Manuals%20Downloads/KX3SchematicDiagramDec2012.pdf
> > 
> > Heil suggests on their tips page generous ferrite choking of all 3
> > leads of their Y adapter cable:
> > https://heilhamradio.com/support/tips/
> > 
> > Drew
> > n7da
> > 
> > On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 3:23 AM Drew Arnett  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> In the KX3 for Field Day department, we plan to use it for the GOTA
> >> station for phone on HF.  (Yes, will have antennas not on top of each
> >> other and bandpass filters on ALL radios.)  Would be great to setup
> >> with a headset and foot switch.
> >>
> >> Last weekend, I used my KX3 barefoot on 6 and with a
> >> transverters-store.com transverter (also barefoot) for 2.  6m antenna
> >> was 2 elements about 15 ft above the ground and 2m antenna 6 elements
> >> at 10 feet above the ground.
> >>
> >> I worked a couple of contacts on 2m phone with the headset.  Later,
> >> when I tried to use the headset for phone on 6, seemed like I was
> >> having a feedback problem.  Cabling was the stock cabling that comes
> >> with the Heil Pro 7 headset and a footswitch.  Monitor was on and set
> >> to 4.
> >>
> >> So, ALC didn't indicate anything at the normal level (60), and
> >> increasing it very abruptly caused horrible sounding audio.  (Yes,
> >> acts like positive feedback.)
> >>
> >> I have a small electret mic on a 1/8 plug thing I bought some time ago
> >> from the computer store.  (Meant at the time for adding mic to
> >> laptops.)  I have a 1/8" audio extension cable for it.  I plugged that
> >> in instead of the headset mic and it seemed to act normally.
> >>
> >> Is this purely an RF from the TX antenna getting into the mic audio
> >> problem or is it something else?
> >>
> >> Best practice to avoid this problem?
> >>
> >> On my todo list:
> >> - ask here
> >> - look at KX3 schematic to see if it has RF ingress mitigation on the mic 
> >> jack
> >> - ask Heil
> >> - unplug the Heil mic element and gator clip my cheap electret mic on
> >> instead and try on 6m in driveway with identical antenna/mast/radio
> >> setup
> >> - look for or assemble an RF filter to inline with the mic jack (tough
> >> to do with this little time
> >> before field day)
> >>
> >> Thanks and best regards,
> >>
> >> Drew
> >> n7da
> >>
> >> ps.  Other than this, KX3 was great in the VHF test.  Worked great
> >> with the transverter on 2 and was a lot of fun running barefoot with
> >> the sporadic E opening Saturday afternoon & evening.
> > __
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> > 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Jim Brown]

Heil products are wildly overpriced and highly over-rated. No ham needs 
a boom mic headset better than a Yamaha CM500, which sounds great both 
in the headphones and one the air, is very comfortable, costs about $60, 
and has ZERO RFI issues. I'm a Fellow of the Audio Engineering Society, 
have a storage room full of great mics far better than anything Heil 
makes, do very serious contesting. and I've used nothing but the CM500 
for more than ten years. What pro audio folks say about Bose applies 
equally to Heil -- "better sound through marketing."


The CM500 plugs straight into the back of an version of a K3 (and 
probably a K4), and I'll be happy to list TXEQ settings that make it 
sound FAR better than Heil headset mics.


I've been a member of the AES Standards Committee Working Group on 
Microphones for almost 30 years, and I've never met Bob Heil or anyone 
from his company. That should tell you something about how 
"professional" he and his company are. :)  This whole thing about "I did 
sound for XXX rock band is, as my Black friends would say, "a whole 
bunch of shuck and jive."


73, Jim K9YC

On 6/16/2021 8:36 PM, Drew Arnett wrote:

Shield of mic jack goes to bare metal Elecraft thoughtfully left on
the chassis metal.  10 nF shunt to ground.  (Need to see where that
is, but hopefully SMT and with very small loop area.)  Sheet 9:
https://ftp.elecraft.com/KX3/Manuals%20Downloads/KX3SchematicDiagramDec2012.pdf

Heil suggests on their tips page generous ferrite choking of all 3
leads of their Y adapter cable:
https://heilhamradio.com/support/tips/

Drew
n7da

On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 3:23 AM Drew Arnett  wrote:


Hi,

In the KX3 for Field Day department, we plan to use it for the GOTA
station for phone on HF.  (Yes, will have antennas not on top of each
other and bandpass filters on ALL radios.)  Would be great to setup
with a headset and foot switch.

Last weekend, I used my KX3 barefoot on 6 and with a
transverters-store.com transverter (also barefoot) for 2.  6m antenna
was 2 elements about 15 ft above the ground and 2m antenna 6 elements
at 10 feet above the ground.

I worked a couple of contacts on 2m phone with the headset.  Later,
when I tried to use the headset for phone on 6, seemed like I was
having a feedback problem.  Cabling was the stock cabling that comes
with the Heil Pro 7 headset and a footswitch.  Monitor was on and set
to 4.

So, ALC didn't indicate anything at the normal level (60), and
increasing it very abruptly caused horrible sounding audio.  (Yes,
acts like positive feedback.)

I have a small electret mic on a 1/8 plug thing I bought some time ago
from the computer store.  (Meant at the time for adding mic to
laptops.)  I have a 1/8" audio extension cable for it.  I plugged that
in instead of the headset mic and it seemed to act normally.

Is this purely an RF from the TX antenna getting into the mic audio
problem or is it something else?

Best practice to avoid this problem?

On my todo list:
- ask here
- look at KX3 schematic to see if it has RF ingress mitigation on the mic jack
- ask Heil
- unplug the Heil mic element and gator clip my cheap electret mic on
instead and try on 6m in driveway with identical antenna/mast/radio
setup
- look for or assemble an RF filter to inline with the mic jack (tough
to do with this little time
before field day)

Thanks and best regards,

Drew
n7da

ps.  Other than this, KX3 was great in the VHF test.  Worked great
with the transverter on 2 and was a lot of fun running barefoot with
the sporadic E opening Saturday afternoon & evening.

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Re: [Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Drew Arnett]

Shield of mic jack goes to bare metal Elecraft thoughtfully left on
the chassis metal.  10 nF shunt to ground.  (Need to see where that
is, but hopefully SMT and with very small loop area.)  Sheet 9:
https://ftp.elecraft.com/KX3/Manuals%20Downloads/KX3SchematicDiagramDec2012.pdf

Heil suggests on their tips page generous ferrite choking of all 3
leads of their Y adapter cable:
https://heilhamradio.com/support/tips/

Drew
n7da

On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 3:23 AM Drew Arnett  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> In the KX3 for Field Day department, we plan to use it for the GOTA
> station for phone on HF.  (Yes, will have antennas not on top of each
> other and bandpass filters on ALL radios.)  Would be great to setup
> with a headset and foot switch.
>
> Last weekend, I used my KX3 barefoot on 6 and with a
> transverters-store.com transverter (also barefoot) for 2.  6m antenna
> was 2 elements about 15 ft above the ground and 2m antenna 6 elements
> at 10 feet above the ground.
>
> I worked a couple of contacts on 2m phone with the headset.  Later,
> when I tried to use the headset for phone on 6, seemed like I was
> having a feedback problem.  Cabling was the stock cabling that comes
> with the Heil Pro 7 headset and a footswitch.  Monitor was on and set
> to 4.
>
> So, ALC didn't indicate anything at the normal level (60), and
> increasing it very abruptly caused horrible sounding audio.  (Yes,
> acts like positive feedback.)
>
> I have a small electret mic on a 1/8 plug thing I bought some time ago
> from the computer store.  (Meant at the time for adding mic to
> laptops.)  I have a 1/8" audio extension cable for it.  I plugged that
> in instead of the headset mic and it seemed to act normally.
>
> Is this purely an RF from the TX antenna getting into the mic audio
> problem or is it something else?
>
> Best practice to avoid this problem?
>
> On my todo list:
> - ask here
> - look at KX3 schematic to see if it has RF ingress mitigation on the mic jack
> - ask Heil
> - unplug the Heil mic element and gator clip my cheap electret mic on
> instead and try on 6m in driveway with identical antenna/mast/radio
> setup
> - look for or assemble an RF filter to inline with the mic jack (tough
> to do with this little time
> before field day)
>
> Thanks and best regards,
>
> Drew
> n7da
>
> ps.  Other than this, KX3 was great in the VHF test.  Worked great
> with the transverter on 2 and was a lot of fun running barefoot with
> the sporadic E opening Saturday afternoon & evening.
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[Elecraft] Heil Pro 7 headset with KX3 - RF feedback?

[Drew Arnett]

Hi,

In the KX3 for Field Day department, we plan to use it for the GOTA
station for phone on HF.  (Yes, will have antennas not on top of each
other and bandpass filters on ALL radios.)  Would be great to setup
with a headset and foot switch.

Last weekend, I used my KX3 barefoot on 6 and with a
transverters-store.com transverter (also barefoot) for 2.  6m antenna
was 2 elements about 15 ft above the ground and 2m antenna 6 elements
at 10 feet above the ground.

I worked a couple of contacts on 2m phone with the headset.  Later,
when I tried to use the headset for phone on 6, seemed like I was
having a feedback problem.  Cabling was the stock cabling that comes
with the Heil Pro 7 headset and a footswitch.  Monitor was on and set
to 4.

So, ALC didn't indicate anything at the normal level (60), and
increasing it very abruptly caused horrible sounding audio.  (Yes,
acts like positive feedback.)

I have a small electret mic on a 1/8 plug thing I bought some time ago
from the computer store.  (Meant at the time for adding mic to
laptops.)  I have a 1/8" audio extension cable for it.  I plugged that
in instead of the headset mic and it seemed to act normally.

Is this purely an RF from the TX antenna getting into the mic audio
problem or is it something else?

Best practice to avoid this problem?

On my todo list:
- ask here
- look at KX3 schematic to see if it has RF ingress mitigation on the mic jack
- ask Heil
- unplug the Heil mic element and gator clip my cheap electret mic on
instead and try on 6m in driveway with identical antenna/mast/radio
setup
- look for or assemble an RF filter to inline with the mic jack (tough
to do with this little time
before field day)

Thanks and best regards,

Drew
n7da

ps.  Other than this, KX3 was great in the VHF test.  Worked great
with the transverter on 2 and was a lot of fun running barefoot with
the sporadic E opening Saturday afternoon & evening.
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