subject:"\[Elecraft\] I've been thinking\!"

Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

2012-12-22 Thread Don Wilhelm


Bob,

Actually, the K3 is an SDR by all definitions I know about regarding 
SDR.  The functions of the radio can be modified by firmware download.  
The fact that the K3 down converts to the 8 MHz IF range and then down 
converts further to 15 kHz to inject the signal into an A to D converter 
where the DSP is processed does not detract from the fact that it is an 
SDR.  Yes, there is no PC involved, the processor is inside the radio.


The KX3 is similar, the processor is inside the radio, but the 
conversion is from the RF frequency direct to baseband - in other words, 
the KX3 DSP is processed around zero frequency (unless the 8 kHz offset 
is invoked).


So,  I do not know your definition of SDR, but mine is quite literal - 
the function of the radio can be controlled by software (firmware if you 
choose).  Download new firmware and the behavior of the K3 (and the KX3) 
can be modified.  I believe my view is consistent with the generalized 
definition of SDR.  Many hams will not agree because they believe that 
without a PC connected, it is not an SDR.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 12/22/2012 8:08 PM, Bob wrote:

Not sure if this is a good question to ask or not?

I have a K3, actually 2 and I absolutely LOVE Them!

I also have a KX3 and I may even love it a little more than my K3s.

I am totally happy with both rigs, and if these are the last rigs to ever
be added to the Elecraft list of excellent transceivers, I would say that
Elecraft would go down in the history books as the Premier Pioneer in High
End Amateur transceivers.

However, ever since getting the KX3, I have had this question gnawing at
the back of my head and I am dying to ask, but FIRST PLEASE NOTE, I am
totally content and I really couldn't ask for more than what is presented
in both the K3 and KX3 radios.

OKAY, Here Goes!

Since the K3 is not an SDR (the way of the future) and the KX3 is, IS THERE
A K4 in the future?

Again, a desktop 100 watt  self contained SDR like the KX3 but in a K3 type
form factor?




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Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

2012-12-22 Thread tnnyswy

>>>  Since the K3 is not an SDR  <<< 


I was of the impression that the K3 is a Software Define Radio. 


(((73))) Milverton




>
> From: Bob 
>To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
>Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 7:08 PM
>Subject: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!
> 
>Not sure if this is a good question to ask or not?
>
>I have a K3, actually 2 and I absolutely LOVE Them!
>
>I also have a KX3 and I may even love it a little more than my K3s.
>
>I am totally happy with both rigs, and if these are the last rigs to ever
>be added to the Elecraft list of excellent transceivers, I would say that
>Elecraft would go down in the history books as the Premier Pioneer in High
>End Amateur transceivers.
>
>However, ever since getting the KX3, I have had this question gnawing at
>the back of my head and I am dying to ask, but FIRST PLEASE NOTE, I am
>totally content and I really couldn't ask for more than what is presented
>in both the K3 and KX3 radios.
>
>OKAY, Here Goes!
>
>Since the K3 is not an SDR (the way of the future) and the KX3 is, IS THERE
>A K4 in the future?
>
>Again, a desktop 100 watt  self contained SDR like the KX3 but in a K3 type
>form factor?
>
>Just food for thought, anyone, ANYONE?
>
>Thanks and 73.
>
>Bob VE3UK
>www.MagLoop.com
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Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

2012-12-22 Thread Mark Forsyth


> 
> Since the K3 is not an SDR (the way of the future) and the KX3 is, IS
> THERE A K4 in the future?
> 
> Again, a desktop 100 watt  self contained SDR like the KX3 but in a K3
> type form factor?
> 
> Just food for thought, anyone, ANYONE?


Hmmm. Thinking can be a dangerous thing. It can lead to all sorts of
financial damage.

Although my KX3 is my first Elecraft experience, I've been following
Elecraft and their product line for quite a while.

It seems to me that the folks at Elecraft have pretty fertile imaginations
and a willingness to follow through with ideas and turn them into great
products. Given that, I'd suggest that they have at the very least discussed
future whizz-bangery and have perhaps even reached the "jotting down of
ideas" stage for their next radio.

Having said that I tend to be somewhat agnostic about radios. For my
purposes my F-817 was the best thing going for a very long time. It's now
been replaced by my KX3. Maybe at some time in the future a radio that suits
my operating style and needs better than the KX3 will come along and maybe
that radio will be developed by Elecraft. Hopefully it will be but only time
will tell.

Cheers,
Vk3ZMF


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Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

2012-12-22 Thread David Gilbert



Please explain why you think the K3 is not a software defined radio.  By 
every definition of SDR that I'm aware of, the K3 most certainly is.


Dave   AB7E


On 12/22/2012 6:08 PM, Bob wrote:


Since the K3 is not an SDR (the way of the future)

Bob VE3UK
www.MagLoop.com


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Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

2012-12-22 Thread Gary Gregory

Dave,

I agree that the K3 is an SDR by definition, one of the many reasons I was
an early adoptee.

Having said that, is there a front end software package that emulates all
of the K3 FW settings, provides a good SDR like screen such as PowerSDR
etc, that has been developed for the K3?

I know a lot of Flex users will roll their eyes at such a thought but as I
have not come across one I was just wondering

I prefer the K3 as it is but some may like the Flex way of operating.

73's
Gary

On 23 December 2012 14:23, David Gilbert  wrote:

>
> Please explain why you think the K3 is not a software defined radio.  By
> every definition of SDR that I'm aware of, the K3 most certainly is.
>
> Dave   AB7E
>
>
> On 12/22/2012 6:08 PM, Bob wrote:
>
>>
>> Since the K3 is not an SDR (the way of the future)
>>
>> Bob VE3UK
>> www.MagLoop.com
>>
>
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-- 
*Gary - VK1ZZ
Motorhome Portable
The Shack*
*Elecraft K3
P3 Panadapter
KPA500FT
KAT500FT**
KX3-K
*
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Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

2012-12-22 Thread David Gilbert



That's a user interface issue, not a functional issue.  Cell phones, for 
example, are SDRs  ... some have buttons, some have keyboards, some have 
touch (i.e., "swipe") screens, etc ... but they are all fundamentally 
SDRs.  If you want to criticize the K3 because Elecraft didn't provide a 
different user interface, fine ... but there is no such thing as a 
"SDR-like screen".  The term SDR has nothing to do with the user interface.


And no, I don't know of any front end package that would do what you 
suggest since there is no port on the K3 to access the data lines you'd 
need for it.


Dave   AB7E



On 12/22/2012 8:39 PM, Gary Gregory wrote:

Dave,

I agree that the K3 is an SDR by definition, one of the many reasons I 
was an early adoptee.


Having said that, is there a front end software package that emulates 
all of the K3 FW settings, provides a good SDR like screen such as 
PowerSDR etc, that has been developed for the K3?


I know a lot of Flex users will roll their eyes at such a thought but 
as I have not come across one I was just wondering


I prefer the K3 as it is but some may like the Flex way of operating.

73's
Gary

On 23 December 2012 14:23, David Gilbert > wrote:



Please explain why you think the K3 is not a software defined
radio.  By every definition of SDR that I'm aware of, the K3 most
certainly is.

Dave   AB7E


On 12/22/2012 6:08 PM, Bob wrote:


Since the K3 is not an SDR (the way of the future)

Bob VE3UK
www.MagLoop.com 


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--
*Gary - VK1ZZ
Motorhome Portable
The Shack*
*Elecraft K3
P3 Panadapter
KPA500FT
KAT500FT**
KX3-K
* 


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Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

2012-12-23 Thread Fred Smith

Having ran a couple of true SDR's I decided that I did not like one for a
radio that I had to use all the time. They fell short on receivers for one
thing and were tied to a computer for another. The computer caused another
set of problems itself and the fact no power no radio. The last one I used
was SRD-IQ and it was used as a Panadpter for my FTDX-5000MP there again a
computer was required.

For me a computer is required in the shack, but just not for use as a main
radio. JMHO...

73,
Fred/N0AZZ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Gary Gregory
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2012 9:39 PM
To: David Gilbert
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

Dave,

I agree that the K3 is an SDR by definition, one of the many reasons I was
an early adoptee.

Having said that, is there a front end software package that emulates all of
the K3 FW settings, provides a good SDR like screen such as PowerSDR etc,
that has been developed for the K3?

I know a lot of Flex users will roll their eyes at such a thought but as I
have not come across one I was just wondering

I prefer the K3 as it is but some may like the Flex way of operating.

73's
Gary

On 23 December 2012 14:23, David Gilbert  wrote:

>
> Please explain why you think the K3 is not a software defined radio.  
> By every definition of SDR that I'm aware of, the K3 most certainly is.
>
> Dave   AB7E
>
>
> On 12/22/2012 6:08 PM, Bob wrote:
>
>>
>> Since the K3 is not an SDR (the way of the future)
>>
>> Bob VE3UK
>> www.MagLoop.com
>>
>
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--
*Gary - VK1ZZ
Motorhome Portable
The Shack*
*Elecraft K3
P3 Panadapter
KPA500FT
KAT500FT**
KX3-K
*
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Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

2012-12-23 Thread Edward R Cole


Gary, VK1ZZ:

Not sure what you mean by "front end", but Elecraft chose to design 
the K3 with the digital signal processor included (embedded) in the 
radio.  They also developed the software which defines operation of 
the radio (SDR= software defined  radio).  At the time this was 
developed SDR's were not very plentiful for the amateur market and 
the few available most often did not come with software; the buyer 
had to "roll his own" (e.g. be a software designer).   This held down 
the appeal of SDR for a good while.  The K3 came complete with 
software and processor included which required no external 
computer.  Elecraft chose to call the software "firmware" as it was 
downloaded into non-volatile memory.  Thus is was firm until a new 
version was downloaded.


However, Elecraft did not provide external connection to the IQ data 
stream or baseband so no second-party sw could be used using a 
computer.  That was both good and bad: good such that the radio was 
stabile since firmware was under Elecraft product reliability 
control, but bad for use of any other sw programs.


In the KX3 they have provided external IQ baseband output so one can 
try any number of SDR programs with the KX3 (caveat is you may need a 
bit more understanding of computers to actually get many to work with 
it).  I suspect that there will be many sw gurus that will come 
forward with versions to work with the KX3.  Of course one will need 
a computer with good soundcard to run them.


In time I will probably play with trying other sw with the KX3.  JT65 
and JT9 probably the first.  They will not provide full access to the 
control panel, though.  Maybe PowerSDR can be modified to work with 
the KX3?  Drivers must be developed for each radio that one uses a sw 
radio program (and that is hard part).


73, Ed - KL7UW

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Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

2012-12-23 Thread Fred Smith

Ed

Your right the WSJT modes at QRP power opens up a whole new world to the KX3
and with the new JT9 mode the possibality of QRP DX on 40/80/160m like never
before.

I've been trying very hard to convince myself of all the reasons that I
don't need a KX3, the list grows shorter...

73,
Fred/N0AZZ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Edward R Cole
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 2:25 AM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

Gary, VK1ZZ:

Not sure what you mean by "front end", but Elecraft chose to design the K3
with the digital signal processor included (embedded) in the radio.  They
also developed the software which defines operation of the radio (SDR=
software defined  radio).  At the time this was developed SDR's were not
very plentiful for the amateur market and the few available most often did
not come with software; the buyer 
had to "roll his own" (e.g. be a software designer).   This held down 
the appeal of SDR for a good while.  The K3 came complete with software and
processor included which required no external computer.  Elecraft chose to
call the software "firmware" as it was downloaded into non-volatile memory.
Thus is was firm until a new version was downloaded.

However, Elecraft did not provide external connection to the IQ data stream
or baseband so no second-party sw could be used using a computer.  That was
both good and bad: good such that the radio was stabile since firmware was
under Elecraft product reliability control, but bad for use of any other sw
programs.

In the KX3 they have provided external IQ baseband output so one can try any
number of SDR programs with the KX3 (caveat is you may need a bit more
understanding of computers to actually get many to work with it).  I suspect
that there will be many sw gurus that will come forward with versions to
work with the KX3.  Of course one will need a computer with good soundcard
to run them.

In time I will probably play with trying other sw with the KX3.  JT65 and
JT9 probably the first.  They will not provide full access to the control
panel, though.  Maybe PowerSDR can be modified to work with the KX3?
Drivers must be developed for each radio that one uses a sw radio program
(and that is hard part).

73, Ed - KL7UW

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Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

2012-12-23 Thread tnnyswy

WHOOA! 


>>>  At the time this was developed SDR's were not very plentiful for the 
amateur market and the few available most often did not come with 
software; the buyer had to "roll his own" (e.g. be a software designer). <<<

The Koolaid drinking is becoming Intoxicating around here!  

I got me a couple of questions
 1) Anyone remembers the "Kenwood TS- B2000"?  - The very first so call 
KNOBLESS RADIO 

 2) Anyone remembers what the "Acronym"     DSP   stand for?
 3) Anyone remembers the "Kenwood -TS 850S with the DSP-100"

(((73))) Milverton. 
 




>
> From: Edward R Cole 
>To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
>Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 2:24 AM
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!
> 
>Gary, VK1ZZ:
>
>Not sure what you mean by "front end", but Elecraft chose to design the K3 
>with the digital signal processor included (embedded) in the radio.  They also 
>developed the software which defines operation of the radio (SDR= software 
>defined  radio).  At the time this was developed SDR's were not very plentiful 
>for the amateur market and the few available most often did not come with 
>software; the buyer had to "roll his own" (e.g. be a software designer).   
>This held down the appeal of SDR for a good while.  The K3 came complete with 
>software and processor included which required no external computer.  Elecraft 
>chose to call the software "firmware" as it was downloaded into non-volatile 
>memory.  Thus is was firm until a new version was downloaded.
>
>However, Elecraft did not provide external connection to the IQ data stream or 
>baseband so no second-party sw could be used using a computer.  That was both 
>good and bad: good such that the radio was stabile since firmware was under 
>Elecraft product reliability control, but bad for use of any other sw programs.
>
>In the KX3 they have provided external IQ baseband output so one can try any 
>number of SDR programs with the KX3 (caveat is you may need a bit more 
>understanding of computers to actually get many to work with it).  I suspect 
>that there will be many sw gurus that will come forward with versions to work 
>with the KX3.  Of course one will need a computer with good soundcard to run 
>them.
>
>In time I will probably play with trying other sw with the KX3.  JT65 and JT9 
>probably the first.  They will not provide full access to the control panel, 
>though.  Maybe PowerSDR can be modified to work with the KX3?  Drivers must be 
>developed for each radio that one uses a sw radio program (and that is hard 
>part).
>
>73, Ed - KL7UW
>
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Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

2012-12-23 Thread Nate Bargmann

I wonder if in the amateur radio world 'SDR' is now synonymous with a
point and click interface much the same was as 'CW' is now synonymous
with Morse Code?  Would be a pity if we allow another term to be so
limited.

Merry Christmas!

73, de Nate, N0NB >>

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

2012-12-23 Thread Fred Smith

No it's just a "Software Defined Radio" one that can be upgraded with a
firmware download.

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Nate Bargmann
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 6:27 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

I wonder if in the amateur radio world 'SDR' is now synonymous with a point
and click interface much the same was as 'CW' is now synonymous with Morse
Code?  Would be a pity if we allow another term to be so limited.

Merry Christmas!

73, de Nate, N0NB >>

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

2012-12-23 Thread GDanner

Guys,
Try for what appears to be a good definition:
http://www.wirelessinnovation.org/assets/documents/SoftwareDefinedRadio.pdf

73 - Merry Christmas
George
AI4VZ

-Original Message- 
From: Fred Smith
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 7:40 AM
To: 'Nate Bargmann' ; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

No it's just a "Software Defined Radio" one that can be upgraded with a
firmware download.

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Nate Bargmann
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 6:27 AM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

I wonder if in the amateur radio world 'SDR' is now synonymous with a point
and click interface much the same was as 'CW' is now synonymous with Morse
Code?  Would be a pity if we allow another term to be so limited.

Merry Christmas!

73, de Nate, N0NB >>

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds.
The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

2012-12-23 Thread Bill Frantz

I am one of those hams that is always changing my shack 
equipment. I feel a little embarrassed if I use the same radio 
setup two days in a row. (But not so embarrassed that I don't do 
it quite frequently.) Edward has the germ of an interesting 
product idea that might appeal to hams like me: A computer 
package that makes building a SDR as easy as an Arduino makes 
building a digital controller. This package could come with 
building blocks such as software mixers, software filters, and 
software coders/decoders which can be connected to each other 
and to user interface elements to build a radio. Obviously it 
should be straight forward to define and add your own elements. 
This package would make it easy to experiment with new 
modulation schemes and many other aspects of radio design. The 
KX3 with its I/Q interface would be a useful analog platform for 
this software.



Another idea that might have broad appeal to Elecraft users is 
pure software control package for the K3/KX3 which would allow 
travelers to operate their home radios from anywhere with an 
internet connection using a laptop or even a pad. A K3/0 is a 
really big box to take on a business trip or vacation, but many 
people are already taking a laptop or a pad along.


Cheers - Bill, AE6JV/1

On 12/22/12 at 12:24 AM, kl...@acsalaska.net (Edward R Cole) wrote:

In the KX3 they have provided external IQ baseband output so 
one can try any number of SDR programs with the KX3 (caveat is 
you may need a bit more understanding of computers to actually 
get many to work with it).  I suspect that there will be many 
sw gurus that will come forward with versions to work with the 
KX3.  Of course one will need a computer with good soundcard to 
run them.


In time I will probably play with trying other sw with the 
KX3.  JT65 and JT9 probably the first.  They will not provide 
full access to the control panel, though.  Maybe PowerSDR can 
be modified to work with the KX3?  Drivers must be developed 
for each radio that one uses a sw radio program (and that is 
hard part).

---
Bill Frantz|"We used to quip that "password" is the most common
408-356-8506   | password. Now it's 'password1.' Who said 
users haven't

www.pwpconsult.com | learned anything about security?" -- Bruce Schneier

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Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

2012-12-23 Thread Ray Cadmus


You may want to check out GnuRadio at:
http://gnuradio.org/redmine/projects/gnuradio/wiki

It looks very much like what you wished for :-)

Regards,

rayW0PFO

--


On 12/23/2012 10:02 AM, Bill Frantz wrote:
 Edward has the germ of an interesting product idea that might appeal 
to hams like me: A computer package that makes building a SDR as easy 
as an Arduino makes building a digital controller. This package could 
come with building blocks such as software mixers, software filters, 
and software coders/decoders which can be connected to each other and 
to user interface elements to build a radio. Obviously it should be 
straight forward to define and add your own elements. This package 
would make it easy to experiment with new modulation schemes and many 
other aspects of radio design. The KX3 with its I/Q interface would be 
a useful analog platform for this software.


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Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

2012-12-23 Thread Mitch Wolfson DJØQN


Bill,

There is already a solution available for accessing for K3 remotely 
without the K3/0. If you have your home K3 already setup with the 
RemoteRig RRC, then all you need to access on the road is the "dongle" 
from RemoteRig called the "RRC Micro PC Client".


See http://www.remoterig.com/wp/?page_id=28 for details.

Of course, this requires a software rig interface (HRD or any other 
control software) and has no interface for a paddle, but otherwise 
offers you full access while on the road.


The K3/0 offers you the "real experience" as if you are sitting in front 
of your K3, plus has paddle support. As you say, it is not always 
possible to carry that with you.


73,
Mitch DJ0QN

On 23.12.2012 17:02, Bill Frantz wrote:
I am one of those hams that is always changing my shack equipment. I 
feel a little embarrassed if I use the same radio setup two days in a 
row. (But not so embarrassed that I don't do it quite frequently.) 
Edward has the germ of an interesting product idea that might appeal 
to hams like me: A computer package that makes building a SDR as easy 
as an Arduino makes building a digital controller. This package could 
come with building blocks such as software mixers, software filters, 
and software coders/decoders which can be connected to each other and 
to user interface elements to build a radio. Obviously it should be 
straight forward to define and add your own elements. This package 
would make it easy to experiment with new modulation schemes and many 
other aspects of radio design. The KX3 with its I/Q interface would be 
a useful analog platform for this software.



Another idea that might have broad appeal to Elecraft users is pure 
software control package for the K3/KX3 which would allow travelers to 
operate their home radios from anywhere with an internet connection 
using a laptop or even a pad. A K3/0 is a really big box to take on a 
business trip or vacation, but many people are already taking a laptop 
or a pad along.


Cheers - Bill, AE6JV/1

On 12/22/12 at 12:24 AM, kl...@acsalaska.net (Edward R Cole) wrote:

In the KX3 they have provided external IQ baseband output so one can 
try any number of SDR programs with the KX3 (caveat is you may need a 
bit more understanding of computers to actually get many to work with 
it).  I suspect that there will be many sw gurus that will come 
forward with versions to work with the KX3.  Of course one will need 
a computer with good soundcard to run them.


In time I will probably play with trying other sw with the KX3. JT65 
and JT9 probably the first.  They will not provide full access to the 
control panel, though.  Maybe PowerSDR can be modified to work with 
the KX3?  Drivers must be developed for each radio that one uses a sw 
radio program (and that is hard part).
--- 


Bill Frantz|"We used to quip that "password" is the most common
408-356-8506   | password. Now it's 'password1.' Who said users 
haven't

www.pwpconsult.com | learned anything about security?" -- Bruce Schneier

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--
Mitch Wolfson
DJØQN / K7DX
Neubiberger Str. 21, 85640 Putzbrunn
Skype: mitchwo - Home:+49 89 32152700 - Mobile:+49 172 8374436
Echolink: 3001 - IRLP: 5378

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Re: [Elecraft] I've been thinking!

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